Help me understand what's going on

kerbohl · October 2022

Hey all! You all have such great insight, I was hoping you can help me understand what my hubby is thinking. Keep in mind that while I'll try to show his side below, this is just my interpretation of what things have been.
So hubby basically decided in August to be separated. We are still living together, but we are according to him "separated". He wants me to work on how I treat him (I have a temper and get frustrated with him) but also wanted to work on knowing for sure if he can live without having kids. I asked him to work on how he treats me as he never takes me on dates and considers spending time with me just being in the same room together while we do different things (yes, that is his idea of a date). Also, he stonewalls and doesn't let me be part of his life, and I want him to work on that and treating me like I actually matter to him.
It's been three months, and when I ask him when this current situation will change, he won't give me an answer - has no idea how long he expects us to be separated. I've asked if we can end the separation while still working through our issues, and no. But ... still gets upset if I tell him that I'm no longer his wife right now because we are separated, still expects a lot of things to stay the same. It's like he isn't taking this separation seriously at all and just wants our marriage to be us living in the same house but not being married.
I talked to a mediation agent yesterday because he asked for a separation and that's what we should have. I don't think living in limbo is fair to either of us. The night before, I asked again when he thinks we can be married again and he still didn't have an answer.
Do you think he actually wants a divorce but wants me to be the person who puts it forward so he can blame me? He's not a vindictive person, but I just don't get this whole "we're not actually married but we are and that's how things will be for the foreseeable future". I've been going to therapy to work on my anger and how I react to upsetting situations, but he has been looking for therapist for months now and "hasn't found the right one". I told him to find any therapist and now he is saying that he is worried our benefits for mental health will run out. But then he has been doing stuff around the house to prove that he is invested, taking care of the dogs, trying to spend more time with me ...I'm just so confused right now. I think we should either be separated or married, and this in between doesn't make any sense.
Help? Thoughts? And before you ask - I am definitely working on an exit strategy to protect myself.

banana468 · October 2022

It sounds like he doesn't really know what he wants but there's a lot he's not happy with.

That said, I don't think you can successfully be separated and living in the same home...sort of?"

Have you two sought couples therapy together? I'd be interested to see what a licensed marital and family therapist would advise at this point regarding living arrangements and agree that non-answers are fair to neither you nor him. If you don't think he's vindictive then he may not know what he wants but this also sounds like he's in a depression which makes me concerned for his mental health too.

Hugs. You deserve clarity.

kerbohl · October 2022

We have indeed been going together to a marriage counselor, but it hasn't really changed the situation. She has tried to get us to see things from each other's perspectives, but has basically told us she can't go further until we work on some individual issues. We went to about four - five sessions and one individual session each as well.

She was focused more on the issues we brought up causing the separation, not the separation itself.

climbingsingle · October 2022

I'm sorry. You definitely don't deserve to be in this weird limbo situation. I do agree that I don't think you can really be separated but still live in the same house. What is that really going to accomplish?

Is he open to couples therapy?

climbingsingle · October 2022

kerbohl said:

We have indeed been going together to a marriage counselor, but it hasn't really changed the situation. She has tried to get us to see things from each other's perspectives, but has basically told us she can't go further until we work on some individual issues. We went to about four - five sessions and one individual session each as well.

She was focused more on the issues we brought up causing the separation, not the separation itself.

Ok. Well I definitely think it's kind of BS that you've been going to therapy and he still seems to be dragging his feet.

I personally would hate to be in a weird separation/limbo thing while living in the same house. If it were me, I'd tell him to move out until he figured out what he wants. But I'd also put a time limit on it.

But IMO the most important question is this. Do you still want to be married to him?

charlotte989875 · October 2022

I think it’s hard to be separated, but living in the same house, try to work on things but not be married.

You shared a lot of what he wants and what he’s thinking- but what do you want? (and I absolutely do not mean to imply you need to answer here! Just more of how I’m reading this). Do you want to stay married? What needs to change for you in order to actually be married to one another. If you want to be separated what are the terms of the separation?

It sounds to me like he’s having a real tough time working out his own emotions, but it’s not fair to you for him to get the benefits of the marriage (staying in the same house, having things stay the same, presumably you’re doing house stuff and all the work you’re doing on the house) but also saying you’re not married (and again assuming here)- he can do what he wants as a separated person.

I think talk to a mediator is important- are there any laws where you are about implications of filing first for divorce? Is there anything that benefits him if he in effect pushes you to file first?

kerbohl · October 2022

climbingsingle said:

kerbohl said:

We have indeed been going together to a marriage counselor, but it hasn't really changed the situation. She has tried to get us to see things from each other's perspectives, but has basically told us she can't go further until we work on some individual issues. We went to about four - five sessions and one individual session each as well.

She was focused more on the issues we brought up causing the separation, not the separation itself.

Ok. Well I definitely think it's kind of BS that you've been going to therapy and he still seems to be dragging his feet.

I personally would hate to be in a weird separation/limbo thing while living in the same house. If it were me, I'd tell him to move out until he figured out what he wants. But I'd also put a time limit on it.

But IMO the most important question is this. Do you still want to be married to him?

See, this is where I'm being confusing. I do, but I don't how things are. I love him, he has some fantastic qualities, and I've always thought that we were well suited to each other except for him always focusing on everything but me. Which is something that he just realized this year and wants to fix - he said he let guilt drive him and he would spend time or work on the things where people were being the loudest and I've never really been the loudest. So he didn't really invest in our marriage or relationship. But now he realizes it, so that is going to get better, and then he goes and asks for a separation. So as things are, I don't want to be together. But if we were no longer separated, things would probably be good.

He's also trying to be a good husband by actually going out with me and he bought me flowers the other day but .... again. .. we are still separated. So mixed signals.

kerbohl · October 2022

charlotte989875 said:

I think it’s hard to be separated, but living in the same house, try to work on things but not be married.

You shared a lot of what he wants and what he’s thinking- but what do you want? (and I absolutely do not mean to imply you need to answer here! Just more of how I’m reading this). Do you want to stay married? What needs to change for you in order to actually be married to one another. If you want to be separated what are the terms of the separation?

It sounds to me like he’s having a real tough time working out his own emotions, but it’s not fair to you for him to get the benefits of the marriage (staying in the same house, having things stay the same, presumably you’re doing house stuff and all the work you’re doing on the house) but also saying you’re not married (and again assuming here)- he can do what he wants as a separated person.

I think talk to a mediator is important- are there any laws where you are about implications of filing first for divorce? Is there anything that benefits him if he in effect pushes you to file first?

Yes, I did look that up. Nope, no advantage to filing first, except that you might have had more time to prepare. The only benefit would be that he could say that I was the one that asked for a divorce not him, since he didn't do it officially. I am absolutely not saying that this is what he will do, but it is what his parents did. Father basically called it quits, but his mother was the one who made it official. But the father is still the villain somehow.

He has stepped up the housework a lot. If you recall, we are doing a kitchen reno (still ongoing unfortunately) and I stained and sanded ALL the cabinets, worked with the contractor, set up appointments .... everything. He came shopping twice to decide on things. But now he is helping with what is left. And he 100% takes care of the dog, and there are other things he is now doing. So that's not the benefit of still being married to me anymore. So that has gotten better since we separated - I'm the one reaping those benefits, weirdly.

short+sassy · October 2022

((Hugs)) I'm so sorry you are going through this. I definitely see the quandary. You would file for divorce if you knew things weren't going to get better, but you still see hope that you all can come out okay on the other side, if the work is put in.

You have both improved in some ways. But I think the biggest obstacle is he sounds like he is in a bad place emotionally, no matter what was going on. He needs individual therapy to hopefully find some inner peace and could then make a more confident decision on what he really wants. Whether that's to re-commit to the marriage or he knows he can't and it's time for you all to end things.

But it's human nature that the easiest path is to do nothing. And right now, that's what he is choosing to do by not looking for a therapist and starting individual therapy.

You don't need to answer this for us, but something to think about. You said that you still love him, but does he still love you? Or is he not sure? If it were me, that would be an important question I would have. Because if there is love on both sides, then there can also be motivation on both sides to save the relationship.

Maybe run with his "separation" idea a little, but with one positive aspect. If he's up for this, treat it like a new start in the relationship. Where you all have to court each other again and plan specific dates. It might be a place you all can start re-building from or at least see if you both want to and are able to rebuild.

kerbohl · October 2022

short+sassy said:

((Hugs)) I'm so sorry you are going through this. I definitely see the quandary. You would file for divorce if you knew things weren't going to get better, but you still see hope that you all can come out okay on the other side, if the work is put in.

You have both improved in some ways. But I think the biggest obstacle is he sounds like he is in a bad place emotionally, no matter what was going on. He needs individual therapy to hopefully find some inner peace and could then make a more confident decision on what he really wants. Whether that's to re-commit to the marriage or he knows he can't and it's time for you all to end things.

But it's human nature that the easiest path is to do nothing. And right now, that's what he is choosing to do by not looking for a therapist and starting individual therapy.

You don't need to answer this for us, but something to think about. You said that you still love him, but does he still love you? Or is he not sure? If it were me, that would be an important question I would have. Because if there is love on both sides, then there can also be motivation on both sides to save the relationship.

Maybe run with his "separation" idea a little, but with one positive aspect. If he's up for this, treat it like a new start in the relationship. Where you all have to court each other again and plan specific dates. It might be a place you all can start re-building from or at least see if you both want to and are able to rebuild.

Yes to this. I've asked, and he has said as much but he does also try to show it.

He is a bit of a procrastinator for sure .... but devil's advocate, if he does want to have kids and can't have them with me, he needs to get out of this relationship and immediately find someone else so he can start that family. I'm worried that he'll take too long, but because of the kid thing it won't work out with us but then he also won't have kids, and this will all have happened for nothing. Because that does seem to be the big issue he is stuck on.

ei34 · October 2022

I'm sorry you're going through this, it's so much to bear *hugs* The limbo would drive me crazy. And the couples counseling sounded fruitless. What's especially frustrating is it sounds like you are doing as much as you can, and he has to act.

I am curious about being separated in your area - I know that there's being informally/physically separated (a couple is still legally married but they no longer live together) and there is also legally separated, in which a couple has officially submitted and signed their divorce paperwork and just waiting on a judge to sign off. Are you guys separated but not legally? Like if you won the lotto tomorrow would he be entitled to half? Do you guys have joint bank accounts? I imagine that your home is a shared asset but what else do you share?

I'm sorry that you're going through this and especially all of the gray areas.

short+sassy · October 2022

@kerbohl, True! He also needs to decide if he really wants kids, enough that it becomes a deal breaker. I know that is another big challenge that is facing your all's marriage and it's such a heartbreaking one that some couples face. Because no one is right or wrong and it's one of the few things where there is no compromise, no matter how much people love each other.

I hope he becomes more sure of what he wants soon, because it's an awful way to live for both of you in this no man's land. I also hope it's the outcome you want because I'm biased for you! But, even if it isn't, it's better to rip the band-aid off now so you can both start healing and move on.

STARMOON44 · October 2022

To be quite blunt I neither know nor care what he wants. I just want you to have what you want, and I think what you want needs to be a life free of a man who treats you like this. Call a divorce lawyer and make a plan. And then call a therapist to work through it.

kerbohl · October 2022

ei34 said:

I'm sorry you're going through this, it's so much to bear *hugs* The limbo would drive me crazy. And the couples counseling sounded fruitless. What's especially frustrating is it sounds like you are doing as much as you can, and he has to act.

I am curious about being separated in your area - I know that there's being informally/physically separated (a couple is still legally married but they no longer live together) and there is also legally separated, in which a couple has officially submitted and signed their divorce paperwork and just waiting on a judge to sign off. Are you guys separated but not legally? Like if you won the lotto tomorrow would he be entitled to half? Do you guys have joint bank accounts? I imagine that your home is a shared asset but what else do you share?

I'm sorry that you're going through this and especially all of the gray areas.

It's an informal separation, but I'm pushing to make it formal/legal. We would have stipulations in place that if one of us wins the lottery after the separation date the other isn't entitled to that. And also rules for if we get back together, but if we are still separated in a year it goes to a judge for divorce. I'm currently moving away from the joint bank account - I just opened up my own and am getting rid of the joint credit card. It is up for renewal in November anyways, so that fell into place.

We share the home and also a business .... the business will make things tricky I think.

kerbohl · October 2022

STARMOON44 said:

To be quite blunt I neither know nor care what he wants. I just want you to have what you want, and I think what you want needs to be a life free of a man who treats you like this. Call a divorce lawyer and make a plan. And then call a therapist to work through it.

Bluntness appreciated! I'm making plans, but I am being very open about it to him. If he changes and starts getting nasty, then that won't end up good for me. At the same time ... I do have leverage on him, so I really, really hope he doesn't want to get nasty.

climbingsingle · October 2022

kerbohl said:

STARMOON44 said:

To be quite blunt I neither know nor care what he wants. I just want you to have what you want, and I think what you want needs to be a life free of a man who treats you like this. Call a divorce lawyer and make a plan. And then call a therapist to work through it.

Bluntness appreciated! I'm making plans, but I am being very open about it to him. If he changes and starts getting nasty, then that won't end up good for me. At the same time ... I do have leverage on him, so I really, really hope he doesn't want to get nasty.

Do everything you can to protect yourself, especially financially. I had to learn this the hard way.

The kids thing really does add in another layer, and it's noble of you to be so concerned for him and his future. But you've given him time to try to figure that out, and what has he really done? Ok, he's helping out around the house more, etc. But he still can't give you any kind of clear answer. And that is bullshit, IMO. You deserve so much more.

MesmrEwe · October 2022

The "easy" answer: Hire a handyman/woman and/or maid service to do the things neither of you is doing that annoy the crap out of the other and suddenly that stuff is fixed, done, completed, and off the argument table. Put it as part of the monthly budget. It'll be cheaper than the therapists will add up to and use less of the value of your time that you two could spend doing better more enjoyable things alone or together or together alone because neither of you got married to torment the other.

After that stuff is done/caught up, consider taking a weekend away to a couple's resort or inclusive resort that there are activities to do on-site/nearby. If he hasn't done it, send him away for a week long trip to do something he's interested in, something that reminds him who he is as an individual, same for you, sometimes it's okay to be reminded that you can have separate interests. Start small, but start!

OTOH, from that description, it sounds like he'd rather have a committed roommate in a connected twin home than a spouse OTOH the kid issue is a dealbreaker topic. That's ultimately only the two of you can decide, and there's no right or wrong answer if that's the type of relationship you two want, but it's a "You're in or you're out" because it's not fair for either of you to be locked into mutual ultimatums especially when there are dealbreaker issues at the heart of things for both of you. For that, a Marriage and Family Counselor that is neutral turf for both of you to meet and work on things together, not necessarily a separate therapist. No right/wrong, no ultimatum thinking, it's time for strategies, solutions, and communication. If you both then decide it's not meant to be a marriage, negotiating together and a mutual agreement to protect both of your assets is far cheaper. Yes, look out for your own best interests and protect your assets in a split, but also realize it doesn't have to cost a fortune and create more stress to make the split official either if that's what you both decide to do.

kerbohl · October 2022

MesmrEwe said:

The "easy" answer: Hire a handyman/woman and/or maid service to do the things neither of you is doing that annoy the crap out of the other and suddenly that stuff is fixed, done, completed, and off the argument table. Put it as part of the monthly budget. It'll be cheaper than the therapists will add up to and use less of the value of your time that you two could spend doing better more enjoyable things alone or together or together alone because neither of you got married to torment the other.

After that stuff is done/caught up, consider taking a weekend away to a couple's resort or inclusive resort that there are activities to do on-site/nearby. If he hasn't done it, send him away for a week long trip to do something he's interested in, something that reminds him who he is as an individual, same for you, sometimes it's okay to be reminded that you can have separate interests. Start small, but start!

OTOH, from that description, it sounds like he'd rather have a committed roommate in a connected twin home than a spouse OTOH the kid issue is a dealbreaker topic. That's ultimately only the two of you can decide, and there's no right or wrong answer if that's the type of relationship you two want, but it's a "You're in or you're out" because it's not fair for either of you to be locked into mutual ultimatums especially when there are dealbreaker issues at the heart of things for both of you. For that, a Marriage and Family Counselor that is neutral turf for both of you to meet and work on things together, not necessarily a separate therapist. No right/wrong, no ultimatum thinking, it's time for strategies, solutions, and communication. If you both then decide it's not meant to be a marriage, negotiating together and a mutual agreement to protect both of your assets is far cheaper. Yes, look out for your own best interests and protect your assets in a split, but also realize it doesn't have to cost a fortune and create more stress to make the split official either if that's what you both decide to do.

I tried to do the weekend away part to get us back thinking about why we were together, but he completely shut it down at the time. Now he realizes the mistake and he's kicking himself. I did go away for a week, and he goes away to LARP events all the time - he's been home one weekend this month since October is a really big LARP month.

I've felt like a roommate multiple times in this marriage, unfortunately. I've brought it up multiple times too. I'm hoping this is the last time I need to bring it up.

VarunaTT · October 2022

I had to think about this before I responded, b/c there are some similarities between what happened in my marriage and what you are also describing, and I didn't want to be speaking from that POV. I also don't agree with Starmoon all that much, but I also give no shits about what your H is thinking; I care about you. And that's how I'm approaching this. B/c quite frankly, you need someone to care about YOU and your feelings, hopes, dreams, and desires and if he's not going to do it, let your support system and yourself do so. **clearing throat** Sorry, that one got away from me.

You've discussed a lot on here about the sudden decisions that your H is making that are life changing decisions. None of those decisions have involved you in any way, shape, or form, except to drive a wedge between the two of you and, quite frankly, have been against you. When you have (as you have described here), reasonably attempted to accomadate, learn, compromise, and work on fixing things (going so far as to put blame on yourself), he has done, if I'm reading correctly....nothing? Except continue this pattern of behavior.

If this is wholly a new pattern and you want to continue to work on it, I say take the chance. But I think an examination of the entirety of your relationship is needed and figure out if this truly is a new pattern of behavior for him or if it's just an escalation of something you didn't notice, pooh-poohed, or other "sweeping under" behavior. IMHO, after what I went through, if it's the second one, it's time for a divorce simply because both of you deserve better from yourselves and from partners. Maybe for that journey to take place, both of you need to be on your own different paths. And if you have to be the villian, fuck it, be the villian of his story, so you can be the hero you need for your life.

ETA: And the "kicking himself" afterwards? Again, not trying to project, but is that also part of a pattern? I remember my exH saying one time, "I know you don't believe me this time b/c I've promised before, but this time is different, I swear." He was right; I didn't believe him and I acted to save myself. And I honestly feel like that's what I did, I SAVED myself. I still do not regret my divorce, for one minute, no matter what things have shaken me afterwards, for myriad of reasons, but mostly because I no longer have to support someone who couldn't or wouldn't ever support me. I no longer drained from my own cup to fill someone else's, who never tried to fill mine.

ETA x2: Woman, that roommate comment? That came out of my mouth so many times. You deserve more from someone who is a partner....you can find a roommate and probably a more reliable one.

kerbohl · October 2022

VarunaTT said:

I had to think about this before I responded, b/c there are some similarities between what happened in my marriage and what you are also describing, and I didn't want to be speaking from that POV. I also don't agree with Starmoon all that much, but I also give no shits about what your H is thinking; I care about you. And that's how I'm approaching this. B/c quite frankly, you need someone to care about YOU and your feelings, hopes, dreams, and desires and if he's not going to do it, let your support system and yourself do so. **clearing throat** Sorry, that one got away from me.

You've discussed a lot on here about the sudden decisions that your H is making that are life changing decisions. None of those decisions have involved you in any way, shape, or form, except to drive a wedge between the two of you and, quite frankly, have been against you. When you have (as you have described here), reasonably attempted to accomadate, learn, compromise, and work on fixing things (going so far as to put blame on yourself), he has done, if I'm reading correctly....nothing? Except continue this pattern of behavior.

If this is wholly a new pattern and you want to continue to work on it, I say take the chance. But I think an examination of the entirety of your relationship is needed and figure out if this truly is a new pattern of behavior for him or if it's just an escalation of something you didn't notice, pooh-poohed, or other "sweeping under" behavior. IMHO, after what I went through, if it's the second one, it's time for a divorce simply because both of you deserve better from yourselves and from partners. Maybe for that journey to take place, both of you need to be on your own different paths. And if you have to be the villian, fuck it, be the villian of his story, so you can be the hero you need for your life.

ETA: And the "kicking himself" afterwards? Again, not trying to project, but is that also part of a pattern? I remember my exH saying one time, "I know you don't believe me this time b/c I've promised before, but this time is different, I swear." He was right; I didn't believe him and I acted to save myself. And I honestly feel like that's what I did, I SAVED myself. I still do not regret my divorce, for one minute, no matter what things have shaken me afterwards, for myriad of reasons, but mostly because I no longer have to support someone who couldn't or wouldn't ever support me. I no longer drained from my own cup to fill someone else's, who never tried to fill mine.

ETA x2: Woman, that roommate comment? That came out of my mouth so many times. You deserve more from someone who is a partner....you can find a roommate and probably a more reliable one.

I get what you are saying here, and you are right - this isn't a new pattern. I think what is different this time is how he is approaching it, because of the work he did in therapy in the spring. He realized that he has been messing up this entire time and he is trying to get it right now but .... by making decisions on his own on how to fix it without involving me. I get that it is something he is working on, and I feel like it is different now that he has realized that this is actually an issue and he does need to change it. But I think he does need more therapy, and I also think that this time I need to set a time limit.

Re the roomates .... my parents are dying to be my roommate. I like my parents, I like being with them. I need my space sometimes, but I'd be cool living in a house with them as long as I had my own room far away from theirs. And they are currently house shopping to buy in the spring and are now looking for places that would fit both of us.

short+sassy · October 2022

@kerbohl, basements don't exist where I live. But that sounds like a perfect "must" while they are looking for houses. If you do end up needing a place to live, they can fairly easily (usually, as long as it's already finished) be turned into a place where you could live. And, if that ends up not being needed, it can be a extra storage and/or an entertainment spot.

VarunaTT · October 2022

kerbohl said:

VarunaTT said:

I had to think about this before I responded, b/c there are some similarities between what happened in my marriage and what you are also describing, and I didn't want to be speaking from that POV. I also don't agree with Starmoon all that much, but I also give no shits about what your H is thinking; I care about you. And that's how I'm approaching this. B/c quite frankly, you need someone to care about YOU and your feelings, hopes, dreams, and desires and if he's not going to do it, let your support system and yourself do so. **clearing throat** Sorry, that one got away from me.

You've discussed a lot on here about the sudden decisions that your H is making that are life changing decisions. None of those decisions have involved you in any way, shape, or form, except to drive a wedge between the two of you and, quite frankly, have been against you. When you have (as you have described here), reasonably attempted to accomadate, learn, compromise, and work on fixing things (going so far as to put blame on yourself), he has done, if I'm reading correctly....nothing? Except continue this pattern of behavior.

If this is wholly a new pattern and you want to continue to work on it, I say take the chance. But I think an examination of the entirety of your relationship is needed and figure out if this truly is a new pattern of behavior for him or if it's just an escalation of something you didn't notice, pooh-poohed, or other "sweeping under" behavior. IMHO, after what I went through, if it's the second one, it's time for a divorce simply because both of you deserve better from yourselves and from partners. Maybe for that journey to take place, both of you need to be on your own different paths. And if you have to be the villian, fuck it, be the villian of his story, so you can be the hero you need for your life.

ETA: And the "kicking himself" afterwards? Again, not trying to project, but is that also part of a pattern? I remember my exH saying one time, "I know you don't believe me this time b/c I've promised before, but this time is different, I swear." He was right; I didn't believe him and I acted to save myself. And I honestly feel like that's what I did, I SAVED myself. I still do not regret my divorce, for one minute, no matter what things have shaken me afterwards, for myriad of reasons, but mostly because I no longer have to support someone who couldn't or wouldn't ever support me. I no longer drained from my own cup to fill someone else's, who never tried to fill mine.

ETA x2: Woman, that roommate comment? That came out of my mouth so many times. You deserve more from someone who is a partner....you can find a roommate and probably a more reliable one.

I get what you are saying here, and you are right - this isn't a new pattern. I think what is different this time is how he is approaching it, because of the work he did in therapy in the spring. He realized that he has been messing up this entire time and he is trying to get it right now but .... by making decisions on his own on how to fix it without involving me. I get that it is something he is working on, and I feel like it is different now that he has realized that this is actually an issue and he does need to change it. But I think he does need more therapy, and I also think that this time I need to set a time limit.

Re the roomates .... my parents are dying to be my roommate. I like my parents, I like being with them. I need my space sometimes, but I'd be cool living in a house with them as long as I had my own room far away from theirs. And they are currently house shopping to buy in the spring and are now looking for places that would fit both of us.

I want to make sure this comes across as supporting you and not devil's advocate or anything. I like that you feel it's different and that you feel you need to set a time limit. I just want you to remember that you don't have to stay just b/c he has decided to work on it. If it's too late for you or you don't want to wait...those are valid decisions to make as well. If your time limit is next week, that's okay. If your time limit is "I move out and we take a year apart while you work and I get to decide if it's enough" is also okay. It's not nice; it's okay though. You get to make decisions for yourself.

I don't know if my exH would've changed. Reports on his new marriage seem to be that he has (other people now tell me they see how differently he treates the new wife and can now understand why I left), so maybe he would've. IDK and it's okay that I put myself first and relied on myself to do my own work and path. As I told someone, "The entire point of my divorce was that I thought we would be better apart. Obviously? We are, if he has changed and is taking better care of the new relationship. He wouldn't/couldn't do that for me, so he had to take a path without me to get there."

kerbohl · October 2022

VarunaTT said:

kerbohl said:

VarunaTT said:

I had to think about this before I responded, b/c there are some similarities between what happened in my marriage and what you are also describing, and I didn't want to be speaking from that POV. I also don't agree with Starmoon all that much, but I also give no shits about what your H is thinking; I care about you. And that's how I'm approaching this. B/c quite frankly, you need someone to care about YOU and your feelings, hopes, dreams, and desires and if he's not going to do it, let your support system and yourself do so. **clearing throat** Sorry, that one got away from me.

You've discussed a lot on here about the sudden decisions that your H is making that are life changing decisions. None of those decisions have involved you in any way, shape, or form, except to drive a wedge between the two of you and, quite frankly, have been against you. When you have (as you have described here), reasonably attempted to accomadate, learn, compromise, and work on fixing things (going so far as to put blame on yourself), he has done, if I'm reading correctly....nothing? Except continue this pattern of behavior.

If this is wholly a new pattern and you want to continue to work on it, I say take the chance. But I think an examination of the entirety of your relationship is needed and figure out if this truly is a new pattern of behavior for him or if it's just an escalation of something you didn't notice, pooh-poohed, or other "sweeping under" behavior. IMHO, after what I went through, if it's the second one, it's time for a divorce simply because both of you deserve better from yourselves and from partners. Maybe for that journey to take place, both of you need to be on your own different paths. And if you have to be the villian, fuck it, be the villian of his story, so you can be the hero you need for your life.

ETA: And the "kicking himself" afterwards? Again, not trying to project, but is that also part of a pattern? I remember my exH saying one time, "I know you don't believe me this time b/c I've promised before, but this time is different, I swear." He was right; I didn't believe him and I acted to save myself. And I honestly feel like that's what I did, I SAVED myself. I still do not regret my divorce, for one minute, no matter what things have shaken me afterwards, for myriad of reasons, but mostly because I no longer have to support someone who couldn't or wouldn't ever support me. I no longer drained from my own cup to fill someone else's, who never tried to fill mine.

ETA x2: Woman, that roommate comment? That came out of my mouth so many times. You deserve more from someone who is a partner....you can find a roommate and probably a more reliable one.

I get what you are saying here, and you are right - this isn't a new pattern. I think what is different this time is how he is approaching it, because of the work he did in therapy in the spring. He realized that he has been messing up this entire time and he is trying to get it right now but .... by making decisions on his own on how to fix it without involving me. I get that it is something he is working on, and I feel like it is different now that he has realized that this is actually an issue and he does need to change it. But I think he does need more therapy, and I also think that this time I need to set a time limit.

Re the roomates .... my parents are dying to be my roommate. I like my parents, I like being with them. I need my space sometimes, but I'd be cool living in a house with them as long as I had my own room far away from theirs. And they are currently house shopping to buy in the spring and are now looking for places that would fit both of us.

I want to make sure this comes across as supporting you and not devil's advocate or anything. I like that you feel it's different and that you feel you need to set a time limit. I just want you to remember that you don't have to stay just b/c he has decided to work on it. If it's too late for you or you don't want to wait...those are valid decisions to make as well. If your time limit is next week, that's okay. If your time limit is "I move out and we take a year apart while you work and I get to decide if it's enough" is also okay. It's not nice; it's okay though. You get to make decisions for yourself.

I don't know if my exH would've changed. Reports on his new marriage seem to be that he has (other people now tell me they see how differently he treates the new wife and can now understand why I left), so maybe he would've. IDK and it's okay that I put myself first and relied on myself to do my own work and path. As I told someone, "The entire point of my divorce was that I thought we would be better apart. Obviously? We are, if he has changed and is taking better care of the new relationship. He wouldn't/couldn't do that for me, so he had to take a path without me to get there."

Very true. I think that's why I want to put on the time limit. I want to give him another chance, but I can't waste more time if he isn't going to change.

CharmedPam · October 2022

*hugs* how long have you been married Kerbohl? Is him wanting kids a new concept? I think I remember you telling us it was? Or has he always said he wanted them and it was swept under the rug?

kerbohl · October 2022

CharmedPam said:

*hugs* how long have you been married Kerbohl? Is him wanting kids a new concept? I think I remember you telling us it was? Or has he always said he wanted them and it was swept under the rug?

9 years in January. We talked about kids before getting married and he said he wanted them but when I told him I didn't I thought we had agreed that we would not have them. We had a whole discussion, and his reason for having kids was .... okay, I sound really judgey if I say messed up. He doesn't want them for them, he wants them to continue the name, because he is the only son in his family and any kids his sister has will not continue the family name. And he wants to leave a legacy.
I made sure to have discussions about this every few years to confirm that I didn't want to have kids. But I guess he swept his own feelings under the rug because he chose at those times not to mention his desire to still have them.

CharmedPam · October 2022

Ok! Now I remember you saying all that. You’ll have to excuse my horrible memory. I was in the same boat. I wanted to ask because I wanted to see if you or the therapist ever asked his reasoning. And it looks like you know. You know, the continuing of the name is such a big thing for men. I’ve heard that reson before. And me taking my ex’s last name was a big thing for him too. There’s something about the last name that’s so important. But it’s not the sole reason to have them. Does he understand the cost? Time? Effort? It’s really not fair of him to brush it aside and then 9 years later make his stance on it

short+sassy · October 2022

kerbohl said:

CharmedPam said:

*hugs* how long have you been married Kerbohl? Is him wanting kids a new concept? I think I remember you telling us it was? Or has he always said he wanted them and it was swept under the rug?

9 years in January. We talked about kids before getting married and he said he wanted them but when I told him I didn't I thought we had agreed that we would not have them. We had a whole discussion, and his reason for having kids was .... okay, I sound really judgey if I say messed up. He doesn't want them for them, he wants them to continue the name, because he is the only son in his family and any kids his sister has will not continue the family name. And he wants to leave a legacy.
I made sure to have discussions about this every few years to confirm that I didn't want to have kids. But I guess he swept his own feelings under the rug because he chose at those times not to mention his desire to still have them.

Wow! No. That is not judgey at all. That's a ridiculous reason to have a child. I hope there are other reasons he wants a child and it isn't just for that. Because it's so messed up. I know people can be great parents, even if they didn't initially want to be parents. But still. This a potential life we are talking about who didn't ask to be born. Especially if it was just to pump up someone's ego and carry on their name.

Does he also realize there is a 50% chance he will have a girl, who might not carry on his name after she gets married? Or has a child who grows up to not want children of their own.

Not to mention, he is turning his own life upside down if he decides this is a dealbreaker. For something he won't care about after he's died anyway.

kerbohl · October 2022

short+sassy said:

kerbohl said:

CharmedPam said:

*hugs* how long have you been married Kerbohl? Is him wanting kids a new concept? I think I remember you telling us it was? Or has he always said he wanted them and it was swept under the rug?

9 years in January. We talked about kids before getting married and he said he wanted them but when I told him I didn't I thought we had agreed that we would not have them. We had a whole discussion, and his reason for having kids was .... okay, I sound really judgey if I say messed up. He doesn't want them for them, he wants them to continue the name, because he is the only son in his family and any kids his sister has will not continue the family name. And he wants to leave a legacy.
I made sure to have discussions about this every few years to confirm that I didn't want to have kids. But I guess he swept his own feelings under the rug because he chose at those times not to mention his desire to still have them.

Wow! No. That is not judgey at all. That's a ridiculous reason to have a child. I hope there are other reasons he wants a child and it isn't just for that. Because it's so messed up. I know people can be great parents, even if they didn't initially want to be parents. But still. This a potential life we are talking about who didn't ask to be born. Especially if it was just to pump up someone's ego and carry on their name.

Does he also realize there is a 50% chance he will have a girl, who might not carry on his name after she gets married? Or has a child who grows up to not want children of their own.

Not to mention, he is turning his own life upside down if he decides this is a dealbreaker. For something he won't care about after he's died anyway.

I've mentioned that, about the possibility of a girl and the "line" ending anyways.

He did not care about me taking his last name, oddly. It was never a big deal at all when it came to that.

I've tried to point out the time, cost, effort, not having the life you want, having to put off dreams that he wants to do now ... he is taking that into account. I guess it's hard for someone who came from a small family. He has no close cousins, just one sister .... never babysat, small church ... meanwhile, I have over 100 cousins (I've lost count) and have been around small children all my life. They are work.

Jen4948 · October 2022

@kerbohl That's really rough.

I have to agree with PPs who say that the important things here are your needs. Obviously this arrangement and the lack of clarity about where things are headed isn't working for you.

If you ever do have kids, though, they need a committed, involved, caring father in their lives, not one whose sole concern is the family name. That should be a deal breaker.

I would seek counseling for yourself, just to clarify for yourself what you need and how you're feeling. Just because he says he'll "work on" your relationship doesn't mean that he's doing so in a way that works for you. If it turns out that a divorce is the best thing for you, then while I am sorry that your marriage didn't work, I wish you the best going forward.

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