What do you think?

mwhitson14 · February 2010

Should a 12 year old boy be sentenced to life in prison?

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/jordan-brown-12-faces-grown-up-murder-charges/19352277?icid=main|main|dl1|link5|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fcrime%2Farticle%2Fjordan-brown-12-faces-grown-up-murder-charges%2F19352277

JessAndTrav · February 2010

You know...at 12, he knew what he was doing.

Kati0105 · February 2010

I think the father should be jailed for giving an 11 year old a gun. WTF?

AlexiaANDRobert · February 2010

Actually, yes, I think so.

At 12 and especially someone who hunts, you know what a gun is for and what it does. This surely was not an accident.

JessAndTrav · February 2010

On weekends, Jordan hunted alongside his father, Chris Brown, who purchased the youth-sized 20-gauge shotgun state police believe was the murder weapon. The gun was given to Jordan as a present for Easter, and the boy's lawyers say he only used it for hunting.

He goes hunting. He knows how to use the gun and he knows what it can do. Should he go to a regular prison at 12? No. But should he be held responsible for his crime? I think so.

I don't think that he should get out in 6 years because he was a juvenile.

wadingmoose · February 2010

Yes.

ohwhynot · February 2010

No. I don't think that we, as a society, should state that we've just given up, completely and irrevocably, on a 12 year old child.

Children at that age don't have completely formed brains - their impulse control is severely lacking, compared to adults. I don't think it's justice to try a child as an adult or to sentence a child to life without the possibility of parole.

baystateapple · February 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_think-19?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:fcb88b51-5b59-4a18-961d-1420a4b0a81aPost:79ecdda7-1465-4c41-a2fd-18b8ad973083">Re: What do you think?</a>:
[QUOTE]I think the father should be jailed for giving an 11 year old a gun. WTF?
Posted by Kati0105[/QUOTE]

That was my thought exactly, Kati.

Even if he used it "just for hunting", why the hell would the father let him have access to it unsupervised? Or leave it somewhere where the kid could get to it, unsupervised?

mwhitson14 · February 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_think-19?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:fcb88b51-5b59-4a18-961d-1420a4b0a81aPost:79ecdda7-1465-4c41-a2fd-18b8ad973083">Re: What do you think?</a>:
[QUOTE]I think the father should be jailed for giving an 11 year old a gun. WTF?
Posted by Kati0105[/QUOTE]

My brother and FI have had guns in their rooms, in their gun cabinets, from the age they could get hunting permits. My father, nor FI's, should be jailed for that. Hunting is a way of life around here, and I would say more kids than not have easy access to hunting guns.

Celles · February 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_think-19?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:fcb88b51-5b59-4a18-961d-1420a4b0a81aPost:0f466e9a-b61c-4b7b-ad7d-5fb34042178d">Re: What do you think?</a>:
[QUOTE]No. I don't think that we, as a society, should state that we've just given up, completely and irrevocably, on a 12 year old child. Children at that age don't have completely formed brains - their impulse control is severely lacking, compared to adults. I don't think it's justice to try a child as an adult or to sentence a child to life without the possibility of parole.
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]

Ditto this.

I don't think he should be automatically released at 18 -- but for a 12 year-old, I think the focus should be on rehabilitation, not punishment.

Brie2010 · February 2010

No.

While he might have known what he was doing at 11 (I'll shoot her and kill her), I'm not sure that he had the capacity to comprehend the impact his actions would have on the rest of his life (If I kill her, they will arrest me and I will never be able to go to college, get married, have kids, get a job, etc). I also doubt that an 11 year old boy would know that killing her would kill the fetus as well. It's possible, but I don't think it's a given. I'd have to hear the evidence.

MissLeahM · February 2010

I don't think he should serve life at 12 years old. But there needs to be a pretty harsh punishment.

WTF kind of parent gives an 11 year old a shot gun?

sarah0725 · February 2010

I read the CNN version of this, and it seems like the evidence against the kid isn't all that strong and a lot of people are advocating his innocence. I'd want to know for damn sure that the kid did it, and why he did it, before sentencing a kid to life in prison.

In general... I'm not sure what I think. The studies on how the teenage brain develops are still coming in, and I think there's a lot we don't understand yet. Also, there's still a lot of debate over whether or not sociopathy can be diagnosed in children.

JessAndTrav · February 2010

Sure, their minds haven't formed fully yet, but when your were 12, didn't you know that holding a gun to someone's head and then pulling the trigger would kill them?

Come on.

AlexiaANDRobert · February 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_think-19?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:fcb88b51-5b59-4a18-961d-1420a4b0a81aPost:0f466e9a-b61c-4b7b-ad7d-5fb34042178d">Re: What do you think?</a>:
[QUOTE]No. I don't think that we, as a society, should state that we've just given up, completely and irrevocably, on a 12 year old child. Children at that age don't have completely formed brains - their impulse control is severely lacking, compared to adults. I don't think it's justice to try a child as an adult or to sentence a child to life without the possibility of parole.
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]

I can see this perspective also. Then again, I'm not a relative of the person who (or is it whom?) he killed.

He definitely needs to know what he did was wrong and suffer consequences. I don't care if he was 6, 12, or 50, he did something wrong and needs to pay for it.

Kati0105 · February 2010

My brother and FI have had guns in their rooms, in their gun cabinets, from the age they could get hunting permits. My father, nor FI's, should be jailed for that. Hunting is a way of life around here, and I would say more kids than not have easy access to hunting guns.

I thought you had to be 18 to purchase a gun? Shouldn't that also mean that children under 18 should not have easy access to guns? To me allowing an 11 year old to have access to a gun, even with hunting training, is no different than giving an 11 year old a couple of driving lessons and the keys to your car.

sarahmk5 · February 2010

No. He's a child. There needs to be punishment, but IMO life in prison is a ridiculous sentence for a 12 year old. He needs rehabilitation, not an effective end to his life.

mwhitson14 · February 2010

Yeah, I didn't say they purchased the guns, but as presents. Usually for Christmas, since that falls right in the middle of hunting season (or in my brother's case, his birthday, right before hunting season begins).

You have to be 18 to purchase one, but not carry one for hunting purposes. I can't remember the exact age to carry one for hunting, with a hunting license.

JessAndTrav · February 2010

PS: I don't think that he should get life in prison, but I do think that only staying in there until he's 18 is ridiculous.

ohwhynot · February 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_think-19?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:fcb88b51-5b59-4a18-961d-1420a4b0a81aPost:c07ac563-de18-4e14-9526-04b18550d90b">Re: What do you think?</a>:
[QUOTE]Sure, their minds haven't formed fully yet, but when your were 12, didn't you know that holding a gun to someone's head and then pulling the trigger would kill them? Come on.
Posted by JessAndTrav[/QUOTE]

No, I believe he knew (I am going to assume for the sake of this argument that he is guilty of the crime) that it would kill her, but as another poster pointed out, I don't believe he has the capacity to understand the implications of that. From what I've read on brain development, real understanding of the potential lifelong consequences of our actions doesn't come until much later than 12.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be incarcerated. I'm saying he should be treated differently than a 40 year old man, because he is different from a 40 year old man.

IMO, that's why we have juvenile court systems in the first place - because children are different from adults and because it makes more sense and is the more compassionate thing to focus more on rehabilitation than on punishment when children do terrible things.

mwhitson14 · February 2010

Anyway, in regards to the story, it seems that if he truly did it, he had to have known what he was doing. Twelve year olds know that if you shoot someone in the head, they're going to die. They will especially know those facts and consequences after going through a hunter safety course.

baystateapple · February 2010

I feel like this is one of those situations where trying as a child is too lenient, but trying as an adult is too harsh. He needs to be punished for what he did, since he clearly knew what he was doing. But I don't think that sentencing a 12-year-old to life in prison is the right answer.

louisvillebride21 · February 2010

First of all, I really hated that article. WTF does him being chubby have to do with anything? They didn't relate it to him being bullied and that's why he snapped, it was completely irrelevant. So was the part about him missing his football games and an 'important overnight trip'. Yeah, I'm pretty sure when you kill someone, that's gonna happen. Additionally, I don't like the fact that they've set up a defense fund for him. I think of those funds for a victim, not a murder. (of course, that's pending on the belief that he's guilty).

I really don't think he should get life without parole. At 12, I just really don't think he had a full understanding of what he was doing.

ETA: Yes, I think he knew he was killing her, but not what the reaching effects of that action would be.

mwhitson14 · February 2010

LVB, I agree about the crapiness of the article. I don't like AOL for news, but am bored so I was skimming their articles.

scoetto · February 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_think-19?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:fcb88b51-5b59-4a18-961d-1420a4b0a81aPost:f1f0e3a3-09e3-49f1-bfe4-3f6b33e4e9b9">Re: What do you think?</a>:
[QUOTE]No. While he might have known what he was doing at 11 (I'll shoot her and kill her), I'm not sure that he had the capacity to comprehend the impact his actions would have on the rest of his life (If I kill her, they will arrest me and I will never be able to go to college, get married, have kids, get a job, etc). I also doubt that an 11 year old boy would know that killing her would kill the fetus as well. It's possible, but I don't think it's a given. I'd have to hear the evidence.
Posted by Brie2010[/QUOTE]

This exactly.

Brie2010 · February 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_think-19?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:fcb88b51-5b59-4a18-961d-1420a4b0a81aPost:e7661bf9-5179-4654-8ff6-4af3e04dee6b">Re: What do you think?</a>:
[QUOTE]First of all, I really hated that article. WTF does him being chubby have to do with anything? They didn't relate it to him being bullied and that's why he snapped, it was completely irrelevant. So was the part about him missing his football games and an 'important overnight trip'. Yeah, I'm pretty sure when you kill someone, that's gonna happen. Additionally, I don't like the fact that they've set up a defense fund for him. I think of those funds for a victim, not a murder. (of course, that's pending on the belief that he's guilty). I really don't think he should get life without parole. At 12, I just really don't think he had a full understanding of what he was doing. ETA: Yes, I think he knew he was killing her, but not what the reaching effects of that action would be.
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]

So you don't think he's entitled to a decent defense? Nobody's being forced to donate to it, and with such a HUGE issue that has the potential to set precedent that could impact the entire nation, uh, yeah, I'd want a pretty good lawyer on it. And good lawyers are often (not always, but usually) expensive.

mwhitson14 · February 2010

Well, in hunter safety courses, they spend a huge amount of time on what will happen if you use your gun in an illegal wal (at least in TN), so I still am iffy on whether or not he fully understood the consequences.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · February 2010

Not life in prison, but I do think he should be held responsible for his actions. I mean, my brother started karate at age 5 and it was drilled into his head (and all the students) that you do not use karate on people outside of the classroom, that some of the moves were dangerous, etc.

My father was also a hunter and taught us the same thing about guns.

So yes, a 12 year old would certainly know enough about weaponry and hurting someone to do something pre-meditated. Hell, a toddler knows that guns hurt people.

SteveandKris · February 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_think-19?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:fcb88b51-5b59-4a18-961d-1420a4b0a81aPost:e7661bf9-5179-4654-8ff6-4af3e04dee6b">Re: What do you think?</a>:
[QUOTE]First of all, I really hated that article. WTF does him being chubby have to do with anything? They didn't relate it to him being bullied and that's why he snapped, it was completely irrelevant. So was the part about him missing his football games and an 'important overnight trip'. Yeah, I'm pretty sure when you kill someone, that's gonna happen. Additionally, I don't like the fact that they've set up a defense fund for him. I think of those funds for a victim, not a murder. (of course, that's pending on the belief that he's guilty). I really don't think he should get life without parole. At 12, I just really don't think he had a full understanding of what he was doing. ETA: Yes, I think he knew he was killing her, but not what the reaching effects of that action would be.
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]

This. *tear* he missed his camping trip.

I'm pretty sure you can be in a range with parental supervision at 16 in PA. (I didn't grow up here and was 18 before I learned how to shoot). I'm sure the age is even lower for hunting. However, until you can purchase your own weapon, there is zero reason for him to have access to it unless actively hunting.

squirrly · February 2010

Let me preface with - I have no experience with juvenile criminal matters, or psychology. Just a regular person's opinion.

I think life without parole is just too cut and dried. He needs to be punished, and severely, but it needs monitoring. Somebody with a degree in child psychiatry or whatever should evaluate him repeatedly and work with the courts to determine when he has learned his lesson and is no longer a danger to society. That might be 5 years, or it might be 25 years.

Also, while a 12 year old comprehends that shooting someone in the head means they'll die, they often have no experience with death. With hunting, that's not a pet, or an animal that anyone around them loves. It doesn't matter that the animal is gone now - it wasn't part of their life before.

If he's guilty, I can only assume that he wanted the fiance to go away and not interfere with his life with his dad - especially with a new baby. He probably felt that this was his only way to influence the situation, and didn't really comprehend the long term consequences. And, while that's not an excuse to get off scot free, it should be a mitigating factor when deciding on his punishment.

mwhitson14 · February 2010

"However, until you can purchase your own weapon, there is zero reason for him to have access to it unless actively hunting."

And February is still active hunting season, at least for ducks, and at least in TN. I don't know the dates for other states, but a 12 year old having access to a gun right now doesn't surprise me in the least. No, it shouldn't have been in his reach right that very second, but it doesn't mean it's that bad parenting.

Just a story to prove my point:

Shane's uncle and his son go hunting for a full week in January, before school gets back in session. Guns are easily accessible during that week, because they will literally run out of the house in their underwear to shoot any ducks they see flying overhead. They live on their own property, it's perfectly legal, but yeah. It's seriously not that uncommon (in families were hunting is a big part of their lives) for guns to be easily accessible.

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