What Is Plus-Sized?

themosthappy91

Okay, let me preface this by saying this is a very sensitive topic, and it is not remotely my intention to make anyone feel bad.  This is a large, diverse and relatively anonymous group of women, which is why I thought this would be a good place to pose a question for discussion that I am genuinely curious and confused about.  I hope everyone will take this as I intend it, which is whole-heartedly positive.

Every few months we see some news story with the headline "Can you believe this model is considered 'Plus-Sized'!?!?", or something along those lines.  Most recently the model in question was a size 10 (very fit looking) Calvin Klein model.  However, there are countless other examples.  Furthermore, there's the oft-quoted statistic that the average American woman is a size 12-16- this figure even inspired the Meg Cabot novel "Size 12 Is Not Fat" and the sequel "Size 14 Is Not Fat Either".  So it seems to me that we have some confusion as a society about what is (or what should be) considered plus-sized.

First, let me just say that for one thing, sizes ARE extremely nebulous- a size 10 in one store is a size 14 in another.  Additionally, genetics play a huge role in how "good" a woman looks at any given size- one woman might look grossly underweight at 110 pounds, for example, whereas a woman with smaller bones and a more petite structure would look healthy and beautiful.  And finally, we all know muscle weighs more than fat, and fitness has a lot to do with how good you look no matter what the number on the scale.  So obviously there's a good deal of variability on this issue.

But trying to put that aside as much as possible, what IS and what should be considered "plus-sized", from a clothing and fashion perspective, in your opinion?  Do you disagree with the fashion industry labeling a size 10 woman as plus-sized, since that's still well below the national average?  Or is it fair because that has always been the standard and it's our bodies that have changed in recent decades?  Would it be possible to do away with the designation altogether?  Or could the fashion industry break down into further categories (for the purpose of hiring models and marketing clothing), like say "slim", "full-figured", and "plus-sized"?  If the fashion genie came to you right now and said "Pick what size will be considered plus-sized from now on", what would you say?  What seems fair and right to you ladies?  I'm just very curious because this issue gets a lot of attention but I've never really heard anyone express anything concrete other than to say that obviously there's something very warped going on when most of us look nothing like the model who are selling us our clothes.

 

Sugargirl1019

Eeeeek okay I'm going to just say the number that popped into my head and then get kicked and screamed at.

14. I think anything 14 and over in my mind is plus sized. But I haven't looked at pictures of women wearing these sizes, I just have this idea in my head comparatively that this number is what I pick.

ETA: things are blurry for me in the 14-16 range. Maybe 16.

luckya23

Why does anything need to be "plus size"?  We manage to have 2s and 10s on the same rack - why not keep going??

CMGragain

I am a plus sized woman.  This is an easy question to answer.  In good department stores, regular sizes go up to size 16.  Anything larger than that and you have to go to the Plus Size department, which is usually hidden away in the back of the store, as if they are ashamed of it.
Due to my health issues, I am dropping a lot of weight.  I may have to start shopping in the regular sizes if things don't change.

theartistformerlyknownas

At the actual store, I believe plus size actually starts at 16. But what that size actually represents varies by designer.

Whatever it is, DEFINITELY doesn't align with the size the models wear. Honestly though, I don't know why anyone is surprised that a size 10 model models plus sized clothes meant for 16-28 or so. I think it's pretty common knowledge that designers put their clothing on extra small people. I wish we could all just shrug that off sometimes and so thinking of models as "the standard."

I also wish jeans were measured in inches like boy sizes. I mean fuck. I have pants ranging from 6-12 that all fit.

esstee33

Choosing a # size to delineate "plus-sized" from other sizes is useless, because vanity sizing has made # sizes totally arbitrary anyway. I can wear anything from a 2 to a 10 depending on the brand, style, and day. Who the shit knows? 

But also, people store fat differently on their bodies, which is yet another issue in determining what would constitute "plus-sized." I store most of my fat in my lower body -- ass and thighs -- and almost nothing in my upper body (although I've been developing some under arm patagia that I'm going to use to fly pretty soon). If you put me next to someone else who also weighs the same as I do, I guarantee you that one of us is going to look bigger than the other. There's no standard, so marking a line in the sand of "size X is plus-size" is totally pointless. 

Sugargirl1019

lolo883 said:

At the actual store, I believe plus size actually starts at 16. But what that size actually represents varies by designer.

Whatever it is, DEFINITELY doesn't align with the size the models wear. Honestly though, I don't know why anyone is surprised that a size 10 model models plus sized clothes meant for 16-28 or so. I think it's pretty common knowledge that designers put their clothing on extra small people. I wish we could all just shrug that off sometimes and so thinking of models as "the standard."

I also wish jeans were measured in inches like boy sizes. I mean fuck. I have pants ranging from 6-12 that all fit.

Some brands do, like 27, 28, 29, 30,.. Etc. Miss-me and big star I know do.

themosthappy91

lolo883 said:

At the actual store, I believe plus size actually starts at 16. But what that size actually represents varies by designer. Whatever it is, DEFINITELY doesn't align with the size the models wear. Honestly though, I don't know why anyone is surprised that a size 10 model models plus sized clothes meant for 16-28 or so. I think it's pretty common knowledge that designers put their clothing on extra small people. I wish we could all just shrug that off sometimes and so thinking of models as "the standard." I also wish jeans were measured in inches like boy sizes. I mean fuck. I have pants ranging from 6-12 that all fit.

That's actually a really good point- size 0 women model clothes that are really "meant" for women from size 0-16, so when you think about it like that it makes sense that a size 10 woman models clothing for people from size 16-28, as you put it.   

CMGragain

You will notice that even plus sized models carry most of their weight around their waist and chest, not in the booty!  There are no big ass models!

amelisha

I consider "plus-size" anything above what's available in most stores, pretty much. But brands vary too much to really say "this measurement" or even "this size". Where I shop, i don't think there's much above a 12 so I guess I consider 14+ as a general thing to be plus-sized. But I know that 14 can mean a lot of different things, of course, depending where it comes from.

I'm kinda on the other side - I'm kind of "juniors" sized, I suppose, because many brands aimed at adult women are just cut too big for me even in the smallest sizes. So in a store for teenage girls I'm not super small, usually a 3 or so, but in, like, J Crew, even the 0s can be too big. Sizing is SO WEIRD.

As for the models thing...I really don't know enough about what 5'10" women fit into to say "she can't be plus-sized!" because I know sometimes even rail-thin women that tall wear bigger sizes than I'd expect them to.

mikenberger

In my opinion, as a plus sized woman, holla! I think anything over a misses 16 is plus sized. Not a 16W. There is a huge difference between women and misses sizes and I think most of the people looking at these models are seeking models in the misses sizes and not woman's sizes.

But I notice that most of the plus sized women are taller- 5'9+ whereas I am 5'7. So my size 18w body varies from the size 16 misses.

manillabar

Like others say, it depends. I've found that there's a lot of overlap... Some "regular sized" (i hated typing that) clothes go up to 16, sometimes 18, and I've seen some "plus size"  brands start at 14.  Forever 21 has a bullshit plus size section where their XL i think is like a 12, and a 3X is a size 18. So I have some things from there that are like a 3X, but if I went to like a JCPenney's or Macy's and picked up a 3X I'd be swimming in it.  I recently had to get measurements for a custom made outfit so I've since taken to looking things up in size charts and just buying whatever size correlates to that instead of getting hung up on numbers... Size numbers and category (plus or not) are so arbitrary and depend so much on the brand/manufacturer that it's better for me not to focus too much on them.

...that being said, when looking for places to try on wedding dresses, I did ask salons if they had plus sized dress samples just because I know I wasn't going to be able to be squeezed into some of the tinier sample sizes.  So basically to actually answer your question it's hard but I'd say somewhere around size 16-18... A size 4 is never going to be considered plus size and a size 24 will probably always be considered plus size, but the ones in the middle are harder to pinpoint depending on who you ask, IMO

Nymeru

When it comes to bridal stores, their sample sizes are ridiculous at some places.  I was told that as a size10-12 I really should be shopping at a plus-size bridal store.  Most of the samples were between a size 6-8.  NOT fun to dress shop that way at all.  It's a nice blow to the ego.

mrscomposer

It really depends on the day whether I consider myself plus-sized or not.  I'm usually a 14, because I'm an hourglass-curvy mofo.  Most of the time I can rock it, but occasionally I have a bad moment in a dressing room.  Or, standing next to my size 0 sister, who has a bit of a booty and not much else.  I've not shopped in any plus-size areas or stores, though, so maybe it's just the places I shop?  I DO know that whenever someone finds out how much I weigh (200lbs), they're usually surprised because I carry and dress it well - and if I weighed 170, I would look extremely unhealthy.

My wedding dress is in Melissa Sweet's spring 2015 line, and was on one of the front pages of a magazine shortly after I bought it.  I tore the picture out and prefaced showing it to people by saying 'but this girl is about half of me, so it won't look the same'.  I think I looked fantastic in my dress, so I don't know why I thought I needed to give people that caveat.

Anyway.  To answer your question.  Maybe after size 20?  I don't know.  I know that when I was shopping for size 20 clothes, I FELT overweight and was worried for my health.

lc07

I'm not sure I understand the point of plus-sizing v "regular" sizing. Are we asking what size range a designer ought to build clothes for? And outside of that range by small or large they are not required to accommodate without looking like assholes?

themosthappy91

Nymeru said:

When it comes to bridal stores, their sample sizes are ridiculous at some places.  I was told that as a size10-12 I really should be shopping at a plus-size bridal store.  Most of the samples were between a size 6-8.  NOT fun to dress shop that way at all.  It's a nice blow to the ego.

Wedding gown sizes in general seem crazy to me!  Like the actual sizing scale is actually different, isn't it (at least for some brands)?  It's definitely not fun to be in the most high pressure shopping experience of your life and suddenly you're looking at a number you've never worn in your life... but then it's like, deep breath it's just a number.

What I'm really gathering from this post is WHY can't we standardize women's clothing sizes!?  Curse vanity sizing...

lc07

themosthappy91 said:

Nymeru said:

When it comes to bridal stores, their sample sizes are ridiculous at some places.  I was told that as a size10-12 I really should be shopping at a plus-size bridal store.  Most of the samples were between a size 6-8.  NOT fun to dress shop that way at all.  It's a nice blow to the ego.

Wedding gown sizes in general seem crazy to me!  Like the actual sizing scale is actually different, isn't it (at least for some brands)?  It's definitely not fun to be in the most high pressure shopping experience of your life and suddenly you're looking at a number you've never worn in your life... but then it's like, deep breath it's just a number.

What I'm really gathering from this post is WHY can't we standardize women's clothing sizes!?  Curse vanity sizing...

When I got married I was 5'7" and somewhere between 100-110 lbs. I was freaking skinny. And my dress was either a 6 or an 8, I can't remember. But I was shocked at the time. And it actually bothered me which is funny to me because in retrospect I was a stick. But I was still insecure.

lovesclimbing

Most of the plus size models I see (and by I see, I mean the ones defined as the plus-size ones on America's Next Top Model or the ones written about in those stories the OP is talking about), are not plus size.  Generally, they just have a bigger bone structure and/or have a slightly fuller figure/curves.  Certainly not plus size. 

I was just gifted shirts from my mom from Kohls.  I picked them out (she asked me to) and I told her the sizing.  The large juniors size shirt was too small and the medium ladies size shirt was way too big.  I currently have in my closet every size of top from XS to XL.  Not just hanging in the back of the closet, ones in all of five those sizes that I actually literally wear on a regular basis.  I'm not kidding.

artbyallie

I just don't get why clothes for women can't come in measurements like men's clothing. Why can't I buy pants in a 27-inch waist (or a 36-inch hip, really, since I almost never wear pants that come all the way to my waist) instead of having to try on the 4 and the 6 to figure out which one I am at whatever store? Or a freaking 0 or 2 at Old Navy because they run so large.

I'm a 10 or 12 in sewing patterns because those have been unaffected by vanity sizing. And then I have to take in the hips and sometimes the bust too because evidently they're intended for corseted and/or girdled waists.

I will add I'd love to see more 'plus-sized' models out there, including larger women than are currently classed that way because they tend to be size 8-12 rather than on up. Which IMO is silly because larger body types obviously exist and frankly have existed far into the past if you look at Renaissance paintings and such. I'd also really like to see petite models because I myself am petite and I think it's stupid that models have to be 5'8"+ when many women in general are not that tall.

loro929

Doesn't the old saying go "Age is nothing but a number", well same goes for size, it's nothing but a number. 

For instance, check out this "size equivalence chart" (3rd table down) from the clothing retailer Mango -> CLICKY I mean a European Medium is a USA Small and is a 10 in the UK.

It changes EVERYWHERE and if there is that much variation among different cultures - there is even more variation within cultures, which confirms what lot of PPs have said that they have great fitting pants ranging from 6-12. We need to focus on how we feel rather than what size category the fashion industry is trying to put us in. Why? Because size is ABSOLUTELY nothing but a number they use to try (and note the word try) to create an industry-wide standard to produce the clothes - nothing more, nothing less.

That being said, I also fully 100% agree with some of the PPs who said if we have room for 0-12 on a rack - we can put the other sizes on the rack. However, from a practical point of view - the larger clothes sometimes need much more fabric - which is why they are separated in order to charge a slightly modified (higher) price to cover the cost of the increase of material. I know this isn't always the case, and I don't want to generalize, but it is one of the practical reasons for the separations.

raissyrais

I agree that there should only be sizes. Why the need for the "plus size". What I do have a problem with though is vanity sizing. 8 years ago, I could very easily shop anything from size 0-2 and they would fit me perfectly. Nowadays, what used to be a 0 is really a 2, and what used to be a 2 is really a 4. 

Where does that leave me? I'm stuck buying 00 that are a better fit and soon I'll be seen buying 000 or even in the kid's section! I can't buy a size 0 dress without having it tailored anymore, because they are now all made larger due to vanity sizing. 

It's unfair for women like me. I'm a size 0, I'm petite, I work out, I eat well. The only thing that fits me really well without alterations lately is my wedding dress. It's a 0. What am I supposed to do?!

RebeccaFlower

Have you all seen that commercial with women trying on jeans? I don't even remember what the commerical is trying to sell, but the women end up getting measured but the numbers and sizes are words like strong and radiant. It always gives me the feels. 

l9i

mrscomposer said:

It really depends on the day whether I consider myself plus-sized or not.  I'm usually a 14, because I'm an hourglass-curvy mofo.  Most of the time I can rock it, but occasionally I have a bad moment in a dressing room.  Or, standing next to my size 0 sister, who has a bit of a booty and not much else.  I've not shopped in any plus-size areas or stores, though, so maybe it's just the places I shop?  I DO know that whenever someone finds out how much I weigh (200lbs), they're usually surprised because I carry and dress it well - and if I weighed 170, I would look extremely unhealthy.

My wedding dress is in Melissa Sweet's spring 2015 line, and was on one of the front pages of a magazine shortly after I bought it.  I tore the picture out and prefaced showing it to people by saying 'but this girl is about half of me, so it won't look the same'.  I think I looked fantastic in my dress, so I don't know why I thought I needed to give people that caveat.

Anyway.  To answer your question.  Maybe after size 20?  I don't know.  I know that when I was shopping for size 20 clothes, I FELT overweight and was worried for my health.

I get you!  Was I was at my lowest weight in college during swim season I weighed 175 and I'm 5'5.  If you look at the BMI that's still overweight.  Yes, I had a lot of muscle but I also thought I looked sickly for my structure, particularly my face.  I have a curvy shape but I woudn't consider my self plus size at all being currently at the 14 area.  Most people when they find out my sizes are surprised, like you can wear smaller, you're not that big.... um no.  I have a butt and a swam, watch out for the shoulders.

Sizes can be deceiving and change per store.  It also greatly varies by body type.  I was in a wedding another bridesmaid was a good friend of mine and we both were swimmers.  Her being at 5'11 and what I would consider slender was also a 14, same as me.

Fran1985

I gotta do a little plug for Calvin Klein here- they actually dont consider the size 10 model plus size- they didn't label her as their new plus size model or anything. They just said "here is our new model" and the model referred to herself as the biggest girl CK had worked with and the media labeled her plus size. So I think those "can you believe she is considered plus size?" headlines are really disingenuous. 

Agree that I don't think we need to even differentiate. I think the size I see most as the cutoff is 14 but like people have said, labels really mean absolutely nothing now.

Also this is totally nit picking but I hate when people say muscle weights more than fat. Its more dense but doesn't weigh more

novella1186

RebeccaFlower said:

Have you all seen that commercial with women trying on jeans? I don't even remember what the commerical is trying to sell, but the women end up getting measured but the numbers and sizes are words like strong and radiant. It always gives me the feels. 

I think that's Special K. 

But yeah, I have the same issue as another PP; I'm only 5'1" with a tiny frame so "adult" clothes usually don't even fit me and it's frustrating. I'm usually stuck with Juniors clothes, and it's kind of hard to dress professionally when all the shirts in the Juniors section have sparkles on them or pictures of One Direction. So I don't have much concept of normal sizes. 

I've always just thought that people can't really be considered "plus size" or overweight at all unless their weight is negatively impacting their health. If you're a size 16 and you feel great about yourself, then it seems to me you're the perfect weight. So who cares? On the flip side, I have an aunt who wears "plus size" clothes and I once went shopping with her. I felt awful; she was having the hardest time finding anything because the clothes in her section weren't as pretty and weren't made from nice fabrics, and she said she felt humiliated to be stuck looking for "fat people clothes." I really don't like how the clothing industry is so quick to shame women for their size and/or weight. 

abbyj700

What is plus sized in stores and what size a model is considered plus sized is different. For high fashion - apparently anyone size 8 and above is "plus sized." Color me puzzled that as a woman who generally wears an 8 and weighs 130 lbs - I'm the size of a plus sized model. 

But in retail shopping typically it's a size 16 and above.

And to me...who cares? Can't all our clothes live happily on the same rack together as long as there is a sale sign above it? :-)

I usually wear 8's, my wedding dress was a 6, the last 2 bridesmaids dresses I wore were 10's and all I care about is that my clothes fit appropriately! I got quite an ass on me though - so I buy my clothes to fit that and go from there. :-) 

emmaaa

I think as far as a store is concerned, "plus-sized" begins at 16-18? I guess really whatever is in the larger women's sections of the store.

I really hate the term plus-sized. It just implies that the size and number on the label of your clothes somehow equates your value, and it doesn't. Whether you are a 0 or a 20, you are beautiful and every woman has beauty.

And like Fran said, CK did not label her a plus-sized model but rather just their new model who is normal sized. The media took that as plus-sized to have something to criticize, per usual. 

theartistformerlyknownas

loro929 said:

Doesn't the old saying go "Age is nothing but a number", well same goes for size, it's nothing but a number. 

For instance, check out this "size equivalence chart" (3rd table down) from the clothing retailer Mango -> CLICKY I mean a European Medium is a USA Small and is a 10 in the UK.

It changes EVERYWHERE and if there is that much variation among different cultures - there is even more variation within cultures, which confirms what lot of PPs have said that they have great fitting pants ranging from 6-12. We need to focus on how we feel rather than what size category the fashion industry is trying to put us in. Why? Because size is ABSOLUTELY nothing but a number they use to try (and note the word try) to create an industry-wide standard to produce the clothes - nothing more, nothing less.

That being said, I also fully 100% agree with some of the PPs who said if we have room for 0-12 on a rack - we can put the other sizes on the rack. However, from a practical point of view - the larger clothes sometimes need much more fabric - which is why they are separated in order to charge a slightly modified (higher) price to cover the cost of the increase of material. I know this isn't always the case, and I don't want to generalize, but it is one of the practical reasons for the separations.

Honestly, I can see the need for there being another section, for the same reason as there's a petite section - there are differing amounts of fabric going on, sometimes completely different styles, allowing designers to specialize according to varying needs and wants. It's not like it's a shameful thing to be in a different category of clothes; they're just shaped differently. I know I can't wear even the largest Juniors sizes because they're made for adolescents with no hips or boobs. I don't feel badly about myself when my normal size is too small from the Juniors department. 

As long as there's CONSISTENCY though, so it's not like the 2-4-6 store in Mean Girls where suddenly an 8 is plus size when it otherwise wouldn't be. 

wandajune6

I'm fat. I carry all of my weight in my boobs and belly. I'm always plus-sized on top unless I go somewhere with serious vanity sizing (I'm talking to you, Old Navy).

Here's my issue: pants.

In "regular" sizes there are lots of cuts and options. I love it because I can find pants that fit my belly without having them taken in at the thighs and ass. In the plus size department, there may be a couple of fit options (this wasn't the case 7 or 8 years ago) but they're all still built for women with thighs and ass. Because of all of this, I can only buy pants in plus size departments if I'm willing to spend a lot on tailoring. And that sucks.

With jeans, I'll be a 16 at Old Navy, 18 at Gap (online only), 14 at Torrid, 14 at Forever 21+ (best skinnies ever!), and 18 at Lane Bryant. On the rare occasion that I can find jeans at a department store, they're the random pair by a random brand that got ditched somewhere.

Long story short, what qualifies as plus size depends on where you are.

amelisha

Can I derail this just slightly to ask about pant length?

I'm 5'4", which is supposed to be shortish to average. I read all the time that an "average" North American woman is 5'4". A true 32 inch inseam should fit me perfectly with shoes because my legs are pretty long proportional to my height. I find that to be true with jeans most of the time, at least (unless I'm buying designer ones that come in a 34 only...but then I expect it.)

Yet in half the stores I go to especially for work trousers I have like six inches of fabric pooling around my feet and the knee sits super weird. But if I get a "petite" length, I've got a hem around my ankles. How does that make any sense? Who are they cutting these clothes for? How tall do you have to be to have pants fit right?! I hem them, but it screws up the shape and never looks as good and I am instantly frumpy looking.

And everyone wonders why I just go straight for the teenaged girl clothes these days. Sorry, boss.

simcal18

Nymeru said:

When it comes to bridal stores, their sample sizes are ridiculous at some places.  I was told that as a size10-12 I really should be shopping at a plus-size bridal store.  Most of the samples were between a size 6-8.  NOT fun to dress shop that way at all.  It's a nice blow to the ego.

Not fun at all.  I try really really hard to not get hung up on sizes, but I've lost a significant amount of weight in the past few years.  I was a street size 20 when I was 70 pounds heavier than I am now.  And yet guess what size my wedding dress is?  Oooooof .  .  .

Now granted, it's a slimmer fit mermaid-ish gown, I've got some major hips that can make dress sizing difficult, it's a designer gown and designer bridal sizing is notoriously wonkish, and it's going to have to be taken in all over the place.  But it was still a little bit of an ego blow.

To answer the original question, I generally think of true plus sizing as "womens" sizes (anything with a W after it), or other clothing that has been specially designated as plus-size.  Those clothes are generally cut differently than regular sized clothes, and may have special material or design features added in.  For example, jeans may have more spandex woven into the fabric, hip/butt cuts may be more generous, or elastic waistbands may be added in.  So Talbots sells 12W pants that are meant for curvier hips than a regular 12 and have an elastic waistband built in.  But at other stores, you can get jeans sized at a 20 that are cut exactly the same and made out of the same material as a size 6--they're just larger.  So technically, the 12W is plus-sized; the 20 is not.

Those modifications are often the reason that plus-size clothing is separated out from regular clothing and/or more expensive.  There's been some movement to change that--I think just recently a woman started a petition to make Old Navy stop charging more for their plus-sized clothes.  As somebody who's worn plus-size clothing in the past, I absolutely get the shame and discomfort that it can cause.  And it sucks.  It really does.  But it's not without reason, and it's (generally) not done to shame plus-sized clothing wearers.  It just takes more work/design/material to make the clothes sometimes.