Wedding Etiquette Forum

Black Tie on Invites?

2

Re: Black Tie on Invites?

  • kao2015 said:
    Viczaesar said:
    kao2015 said:
    Long-time lurker, first time poster--I was hoping y'all could help me on an etiquette issue I'm having with the invitations. Sorry it's long and a bit rambling!

    TL;DR: Our wedding will have most but not all of the trappings of a true black tie event, and everyone involved in the planning (except me) insists on putting "Black Tie" on the invites. Is this a hill I should be willing to die on? Or is the etiquette rule obscure enough that I should just let it go?

    More details for those interested:
    First, the wedding/reception actually is going to be very formal. The venue is a private club that has a strict dress code, the staff members at the club wear black tie at all times,  the bridesmaids will be in gowns, all the male BP members in tuxedos, our save the dates and invitations have been fancy (though not completely traditional), etc.. Second, it will be very well hosted (top shelf open bar, valet, live band, and so on). However, it will not have all the trappings of a black tie event. The biggest issue is that we are doing food stations instead of a served dinner for logistical reasons.

    All of this is fine, since I don't particularly care about having a wedding that is actually black tie. However, FI, FILs, our planner, and our stationery designer all insist on putting "Black Tie" on the invitation, as if it were actually a black tie event. At the beginning of the planning process, I was on board with having a "black tie" wedding, since I didn't know about all of the things required to make an event truly black tie. But, all the lurking I've done on this board in particular has enlightened me, and I don't want to offend anyone by having black tie on the invite and it not being up to par.

    The reasons everyone else wants to put it on the invite are twofold. First, there are many, many events in this social circle that ask for black tie attire but that are missing the served dinner component--these events are not just weddings, but also galas and deb balls. So I've been getting a lot of the "everyone does it this way" explanation from everyone. This is the same logic people who have cash bars use, and I just do not want people to think of me the same way I think of people who think it's a good idea to have a cash bar or dollar dance or whatever. However, the second reason is that there actually is a dress code for the venue, as I mentioned above. Instead of trying to convince everyone to go to the website to read about the dress code or putting a ridiculous dress code insert in the invitation suite, putting black tie is just a more clear cut way to ensure all of our guests will be allowed in the club. This is the only reason I think it might be a good idea, but I still worry about the etiquette issue. However, everyone else is pushing back
    hard. Is this something I need to put my foot down on? I'm generally passive and just don't want to fight a battle that's not necessary/will not make a meaningful impact on our guests' comfort.

    P.S. I know brides come on here all the time looking for people to validate their shitty etiquette. While I would genuinely love to hear that this is only a minor issue and is not worth the conflict/stress, I also welcome any and all guidance on convincing everyone that we should take it off the invites. FI is open to taking it off, but his parents (who are paying) and our planner/designer generally dismissed my suggestion that it's bad etiquette and I'm not sure what to say except "it's rude to tell people to dress for a level of formality our event does not actually meet". Annnnd end of my rant!


    What exactly does the venue's dress code say?
    I've never asked for the full details, actually. This is a place we go to semi-frequently (FILs are members), so I know parts of the dress code just from going for dinners and such. I know men have to wear at least a coat and tie, women are generally expected to wear a dress but a pants suit is fine. No tennis shoes, no jeans, nothing tattered. FI has been turned away before for not wearing appropriate pants (I think they were chinos).

    I also realize that it sounds ridiculous that I don't know all the details of the dress code, but because we are not actually the members of the club, my FMIL has had to make all of the arrangements for reserving the venue. Additionally, because we've been operating under the black tie assumption, I haven't been worried about people being turned away.
    The venues dress code is not black tie. Black tie attire is a tux and floor length gowns.
    I understand that; I would not be fighting this battle with FILs if I didn't understand that the venue dress code =\= black tie dress code.
    Why do they want to put Black Tie on the invitations?  Do they just want people to dress up?  Do they want to show off or something?  That's ridiculous.  I would not try to rent/buy a floor length gown which I would likely never wear again just to attend a fancy wedding at a country club wear something I already own would be more than appropriate.

    I know you are trying to fight against their insanity, but perhaps the easiest thing to do would be to pay for the invitations yourself and address and send them yourself. . . would that be possible?

    If you want to try and argue with your FIL's here's a list of black tie criteria. . . if your venue doesn't meet all of them, your event is technically not Black Tie:
    • Event begins after 6pm
    • High end, indoor venue
    • Valet service provided by the Bride and Groom
    • Gloved service
    • Hand passed hor d'ourves
    • Top shelf open bar with full wine list and preferably with a sommelier on site to assist with wine choices.
    • Multi course gourmet level plated meal- generally 5 to 7 courses, and preferably with dual entrees or tableside ordering
    • Real china, silver ware, glassware, linens, etc
    • Multi piece live band and and a DJ or secondary performers for when the main entertainment takes breaks
    • High end decor and custom lighting


    Now that said, I don't agree with other PP's opinion on plated vs food station meals.  I prefer food stations, I have been to very formal, near black tie events with food stations, and we had them our own near black tie level wedding.  I have never found it difficult to walk from a food station back to my table to eat, nor have I ever experienced terrible lines.  I like being able to get up from the table and walk around and mingle with people, which happens naturally when everyone else is up getting food.  It doesn't happen when you have a sit down, plated meal.  Everyone tends to just sit at their tables until the dance floor opens.


    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • OP, I'm curious -- do your FILs realize that the onus of a true Black Tie event is on the hosts and the guests appearing in the right attire is only one very small portion of this level of formality?
    image
  • Why not just make it "black tie optional" on the invites?  That is what we are doing, that's what most weddings I attend have been, that way if you have the black tie options you can wear them and if not, you know to be as dressed up as you can be.

    I will say that my FI and I were recently invited to a wedding that had NO dress code on the invites.  Luckily I looked at their wedding website where it said the dress code was "formal" otherwise we would have packed far more casual clothing being as it's outdoors at 3 pm.  It really pissed me off that it wasn't on the invite because I know a lot of people won't bother looking at the wedding website to find the info.
    No, don't do this as it is even more confusing to guests.

    You always have the option to wear a tux or evening gown to an event.  When people write BTO on invitations the people who actually know what a black tie event is look at it and think you (general not OP or Laquer specifically) don't really know what you are doing and you just want people to dress up  And it stresses people out, especially those who don't own a tux or evening gown already,  because often people don't want to be underdressed but they get pissed if they have to spend money unnecessarily to be over dressed.

    Your venue, the time of the wedding, and the formality of your invitations should all help people figure.  I always look up the venues via Google to see pictures to help determine what I should wear.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • Why not just make it "black tie optional" on the invites?  That is what we are doing, that's what most weddings I attend have been, that way if you have the black tie options you can wear them and if not, you know to be as dressed up as you can be.

    I will say that my FI and I were recently invited to a wedding that had NO dress code on the invites.  Luckily I looked at their wedding website where it said the dress code was "formal" otherwise we would have packed far more casual clothing being as it's outdoors at 3 pm.  It really pissed me off that it wasn't on the invite because I know a lot of people won't bother looking at the wedding website to find the info.
    No, don't do this as it is even more confusing to guests.

    You always have the option to wear a tux or evening gown to an event.  When people write BTO on invitations the people who actually know what a black tie event is look at it and think you (general not OP or Laquer specifically) don't really know what you are doing and you just want people to dress up  And it stresses people out, especially those who don't own a tux or evening gown already,  because often people don't want to be underdressed but they get pissed if they have to spend money unnecessarily to be over dressed.

    Your venue, the time of the wedding, and the formality of your invitations should all help people figure.  I always look up the venues via Google to see pictures to help determine what I should wear.
    Interesting, I've never heard that before and in my circles, it's customary to do black tie optional.  In every event I've ever been to, BTO means that if you have a tux or a gown, by all means wear it but if not, a dark suit is certainly appropriate as is a cocktail dress (hence the optional part of it.)  No one has ever been confused by it but perhaps that's just what our social circle finds appropriate.  I actually just texted several of my friends about it (as we are all deep in wedding seasons for the last few years) and they all said virtually every wedding they have been invited to had BTO on the invite!  Thanks for the info though!
    image


  • Why not just make it "black tie optional" on the invites?  That is what we are doing, that's what most weddings I attend have been, that way if you have the black tie options you can wear them and if not, you know to be as dressed up as you can be.

    I will say that my FI and I were recently invited to a wedding that had NO dress code on the invites.  Luckily I looked at their wedding website where it said the dress code was "formal" otherwise we would have packed far more casual clothing being as it's outdoors at 3 pm.  It really pissed me off that it wasn't on the invite because I know a lot of people won't bother looking at the wedding website to find the info.
    No, don't do this as it is even more confusing to guests.

    You always have the option to wear a tux or evening gown to an event.  When people write BTO on invitations the people who actually know what a black tie event is look at it and think you (general not OP or Laquer specifically) don't really know what you are doing and you just want people to dress up  And it stresses people out, especially those who don't own a tux or evening gown already,  because often people don't want to be underdressed but they get pissed if they have to spend money unnecessarily to be over dressed.

    Your venue, the time of the wedding, and the formality of your invitations should all help people figure.  I always look up the venues via Google to see pictures to help determine what I should wear.
    Interesting, I've never heard that before and in my circles, it's customary to do black tie optional.  In every event I've ever been to, BTO means that if you have a tux or a gown, by all means wear it but if not, a dark suit is certainly appropriate as is a cocktail dress (hence the optional part of it.)  No one has ever been confused by it but perhaps that's just what our social circle finds appropriate.  I actually just texted several of my friends about it (as we are all deep in wedding seasons for the last few years) and they all said virtually every wedding they have been invited to had BTO on the invite!  Thanks for the info though!

    I think that's what PrettyGirlLost was saying though -- Black Tie is always optional, that is, people are always free to wear it to an event (unless, of course, it's White Tie). You don't have to actually tell people that. Putting BTO on an invite is seen -- at least by Miss Manners -- as the host "waffling" and, really, even required dress is optional unless you employ a bouncher who is going to turn people away. She says the same for "semi" and "preferred," etc.
    image
  • redoryx said:
    Why not just make it "black tie optional" on the invites?  That is what we are doing, that's what most weddings I attend have been, that way if you have the black tie options you can wear them and if not, you know to be as dressed up as you can be.

    I will say that my FI and I were recently invited to a wedding that had NO dress code on the invites.  Luckily I looked at their wedding website where it said the dress code was "formal" otherwise we would have packed far more casual clothing being as it's outdoors at 3 pm.  It really pissed me off that it wasn't on the invite because I know a lot of people won't bother looking at the wedding website to find the info.
    No, don't do this as it is even more confusing to guests.

    You always have the option to wear a tux or evening gown to an event.  When people write BTO on invitations the people who actually know what a black tie event is look at it and think you (general not OP or Laquer specifically) don't really know what you are doing and you just want people to dress up  And it stresses people out, especially those who don't own a tux or evening gown already,  because often people don't want to be underdressed but they get pissed if they have to spend money unnecessarily to be over dressed.

    Your venue, the time of the wedding, and the formality of your invitations should all help people figure.  I always look up the venues via Google to see pictures to help determine what I should wear.
    Interesting, I've never heard that before and in my circles, it's customary to do black tie optional.  In every event I've ever been to, BTO means that if you have a tux or a gown, by all means wear it but if not, a dark suit is certainly appropriate as is a cocktail dress (hence the optional part of it.)  No one has ever been confused by it but perhaps that's just what our social circle finds appropriate.  I actually just texted several of my friends about it (as we are all deep in wedding seasons for the last few years) and they all said virtually every wedding they have been invited to had BTO on the invite!  Thanks for the info though!

    I think that's what PrettyGirlLost was saying though -- Black Tie is always optional, that is, people are always free to wear it to an event (unless, of course, it's White Tie). You don't have to actually tell people that. Putting BTO on an invite is seen -- at least by Miss Manners -- as the host "waffling" and, really, even required dress is optional unless you employ a bouncher who is going to turn people away. She says the same for "semi" and "preferred," etc.
    See to me, when I see Black Tie, it means men MUST be in tuxedos whereas black tie optional means it's, well, optional.  Good to see what Miss Manners says though, it never crossed my mind to look as I've been seeing it on invitations and doing it that way my entire life!  Always good to see what other people have to say!  
    image


  • redoryx said:
    Why not just make it "black tie optional" on the invites?  That is what we are doing, that's what most weddings I attend have been, that way if you have the black tie options you can wear them and if not, you know to be as dressed up as you can be.

    I will say that my FI and I were recently invited to a wedding that had NO dress code on the invites.  Luckily I looked at their wedding website where it said the dress code was "formal" otherwise we would have packed far more casual clothing being as it's outdoors at 3 pm.  It really pissed me off that it wasn't on the invite because I know a lot of people won't bother looking at the wedding website to find the info.
    No, don't do this as it is even more confusing to guests.

    You always have the option to wear a tux or evening gown to an event.  When people write BTO on invitations the people who actually know what a black tie event is look at it and think you (general not OP or Laquer specifically) don't really know what you are doing and you just want people to dress up  And it stresses people out, especially those who don't own a tux or evening gown already,  because often people don't want to be underdressed but they get pissed if they have to spend money unnecessarily to be over dressed.

    Your venue, the time of the wedding, and the formality of your invitations should all help people figure.  I always look up the venues via Google to see pictures to help determine what I should wear.
    Interesting, I've never heard that before and in my circles, it's customary to do black tie optional.  In every event I've ever been to, BTO means that if you have a tux or a gown, by all means wear it but if not, a dark suit is certainly appropriate as is a cocktail dress (hence the optional part of it.)  No one has ever been confused by it but perhaps that's just what our social circle finds appropriate.  I actually just texted several of my friends about it (as we are all deep in wedding seasons for the last few years) and they all said virtually every wedding they have been invited to had BTO on the invite!  Thanks for the info though!

    I think that's what PrettyGirlLost was saying though -- Black Tie is always optional, that is, people are always free to wear it to an event (unless, of course, it's White Tie). You don't have to actually tell people that. Putting BTO on an invite is seen -- at least by Miss Manners -- as the host "waffling" and, really, even required dress is optional unless you employ a bouncher who is going to turn people away. She says the same for "semi" and "preferred," etc.
    See to me, when I see Black Tie, it means men MUST be in tuxedos whereas black tie optional means it's, well, optional.  Good to see what Miss Manners says though, it never crossed my mind to look as I've been seeing it on invitations and doing it that way my entire life!  Always good to see what other people have to say!  
    No, you are right of course. I think Miss Manners point was that unless you have someone on site who will kick people out if dressed incorrectly then there is always the possibility that someone in inappropriate attire will be at a black tie event.  
    image

  • See to me, when I see Black Tie, it means men MUST be in tuxedos whereas black tie optional means it's, well, optional.  Good to see what Miss Manners says though, it never crossed my mind to look as I've been seeing it on invitations and doing it that way my entire life!  Always good to see what other people have to say!  
    Yes, this is correct.

    But unless an event is White Tie or Black Tie, it is always an option to wear a tux to a formal event.  Hell, you can wear a tux to a barnyard wedding.  So BTO is redundant.
    Black tie optional is not a thing and is improper to put on invitations. You are correct that black tie means you must wear black tie. PPs are correct that anything else is already black tie optional so if you aren't having a black tie wedding, it's redundant anyway. 
  • I was trying to find the thread where we talked about this before, I didn't go back and read the whole thread - it's a zombie thread - but I think we had a good discussion about black tie optional in this thread: 

  • redoryx said:
    Why not just make it "black tie optional" on the invites?  That is what we are doing, that's what most weddings I attend have been, that way if you have the black tie options you can wear them and if not, you know to be as dressed up as you can be.

    I will say that my FI and I were recently invited to a wedding that had NO dress code on the invites.  Luckily I looked at their wedding website where it said the dress code was "formal" otherwise we would have packed far more casual clothing being as it's outdoors at 3 pm.  It really pissed me off that it wasn't on the invite because I know a lot of people won't bother looking at the wedding website to find the info.
    No, don't do this as it is even more confusing to guests.

    You always have the option to wear a tux or evening gown to an event.  When people write BTO on invitations the people who actually know what a black tie event is look at it and think you (general not OP or Laquer specifically) don't really know what you are doing and you just want people to dress up  And it stresses people out, especially those who don't own a tux or evening gown already,  because often people don't want to be underdressed but they get pissed if they have to spend money unnecessarily to be over dressed.

    Your venue, the time of the wedding, and the formality of your invitations should all help people figure.  I always look up the venues via Google to see pictures to help determine what I should wear.
    Interesting, I've never heard that before and in my circles, it's customary to do black tie optional.  In every event I've ever been to, BTO means that if you have a tux or a gown, by all means wear it but if not, a dark suit is certainly appropriate as is a cocktail dress (hence the optional part of it.)  No one has ever been confused by it but perhaps that's just what our social circle finds appropriate.  I actually just texted several of my friends about it (as we are all deep in wedding seasons for the last few years) and they all said virtually every wedding they have been invited to had BTO on the invite!  Thanks for the info though!

    I think that's what PrettyGirlLost was saying though -- Black Tie is always optional, that is, people are always free to wear it to an event (unless, of course, it's White Tie). You don't have to actually tell people that. Putting BTO on an invite is seen -- at least by Miss Manners -- as the host "waffling" and, really, even required dress is optional unless you employ a bouncher who is going to turn people away. She says the same for "semi" and "preferred," etc.
    See to me, when I see Black Tie, it means men MUST be in tuxedos whereas black tie optional means it's, well, optional.  Good to see what Miss Manners says though, it never crossed my mind to look as I've been seeing it on invitations and doing it that way my entire life!  Always good to see what other people have to say!  
    Black Tie Optional is not an actual dress code, it's a made up category.  In addition, it is rude to indicate attire or formality of an event on the invitation unless it is actually a Black Tie event or the venue has a dress code that must be followed.  Anything else is inappropriate.  



  • "Black Tie Optional" is socially incorrect.  An event is either black tie, or it is not.
    httpiimgurcomTCCjW0wjpg
  • Why do they want to put Black Tie on the invitations?  Do they just want people to dress up?  Do they want to show off or something?  That's ridiculous.  I would not try to rent/buy a floor length gown which I would likely never wear again just to attend a fancy wedding at a country club wear something I already own would be more than appropriate.I know you are trying to fight against their insanity, but perhaps the easiest thing to do would be to pay for the invitations yourself and address and send them yourself. . . would that be possible?

    If you want to try and argue with your FIL's here's a list of black tie criteria. . . if your venue doesn't meet all of them, your event is technically not Black Tie:
    • Event begins after 6pm
    • High end, indoor venue
    • Valet service provided by the Bride and Groom
    • Gloved service
    • Hand passed hor d'ourves
    • Top shelf open bar with full wine list and preferably with a sommelier on site to assist with wine choices.
    • Multi course gourmet level plated meal- generally 5 to 7 courses, and preferably with dual entrees or tableside ordering
    • Real china, silver ware, glassware, linens, etc
    • Multi piece live band and and a DJ or secondary performers for when the main entertainment takes breaks
    • High end decor and custom lighting


    Now that said, I don't agree with other PP's opinion on plated vs food station meals.  I prefer food stations, I have been to very formal, near black tie events with food stations, and we had them our own near black tie level wedding.  I have never found it difficult to walk from a food station back to my table to eat, nor have I ever experienced terrible lines.  I like being able to get up from the table and walk around and mingle with people, which happens naturally when everyone else is up getting food.  It doesn't happen when you have a sit down, plated meal.  Everyone tends to just sit at their tables until the dance floor opens.

    Regarding the first point: this is absolutely not about showing off, etc. In their circle, guests are expected to wear black tie attire to any wedding after 6 pm. I think the desire to put "Black Tie" on the invite truly stems from wanting everyone to feel comfortable and avoid anyone feeling underdressed, since most but not all of the guests will dress in black tie no matter what we put on the invitation. However, that absolutely does not make it correct to do so, and that's what I've struggled to convey to them. They think they're offering a service by indicating how most people will be dressed, but I am aware and am trying to convince them that it is not our job to tell anyone how to dress and that it is rude to do so.

    In terms of the black tie event criteria--I have explained all of this, but as I said before: I have not been able to find an authoritative source confirming that information, so they aren't really taking it to heart. Also, we'll meet every one of those except the multi-course plated meal, so to the extent they think the rules are "real," they argue that we're close enough. Insert eye roll here.

    I will look into the option of paying for the invitations ourselves, though. FI has unfortunately been convinced that putting "Black Tie" on the invite is the right thing to do, so that might be a struggle, but it does seem like the mostly likely strategy to work.

    I do agree with you on food stations. I just think they're more enjoyable than a multi-course served meal.

    Thanks for taking the time to respond; I appreciate your insight and opinions! Hopefully I can get this figured out..
  • Viczaesar said:
    redoryx said:
    Why not just make it "black tie optional" on the invites?  That is what we are doing, that's what most weddings I attend have been, that way if you have the black tie options you can wear them and if not, you know to be as dressed up as you can be.

    I will say that my FI and I were recently invited to a wedding that had NO dress code on the invites.  Luckily I looked at their wedding website where it said the dress code was "formal" otherwise we would have packed far more casual clothing being as it's outdoors at 3 pm.  It really pissed me off that it wasn't on the invite because I know a lot of people won't bother looking at the wedding website to find the info.
    No, don't do this as it is even more confusing to guests.

    You always have the option to wear a tux or evening gown to an event.  When people write BTO on invitations the people who actually know what a black tie event is look at it and think you (general not OP or Laquer specifically) don't really know what you are doing and you just want people to dress up  And it stresses people out, especially those who don't own a tux or evening gown already,  because often people don't want to be underdressed but they get pissed if they have to spend money unnecessarily to be over dressed.

    Your venue, the time of the wedding, and the formality of your invitations should all help people figure.  I always look up the venues via Google to see pictures to help determine what I should wear.
    Interesting, I've never heard that before and in my circles, it's customary to do black tie optional.  In every event I've ever been to, BTO means that if you have a tux or a gown, by all means wear it but if not, a dark suit is certainly appropriate as is a cocktail dress (hence the optional part of it.)  No one has ever been confused by it but perhaps that's just what our social circle finds appropriate.  I actually just texted several of my friends about it (as we are all deep in wedding seasons for the last few years) and they all said virtually every wedding they have been invited to had BTO on the invite!  Thanks for the info though!

    I think that's what PrettyGirlLost was saying though -- Black Tie is always optional, that is, people are always free to wear it to an event (unless, of course, it's White Tie). You don't have to actually tell people that. Putting BTO on an invite is seen -- at least by Miss Manners -- as the host "waffling" and, really, even required dress is optional unless you employ a bouncher who is going to turn people away. She says the same for "semi" and "preferred," etc.
    See to me, when I see Black Tie, it means men MUST be in tuxedos whereas black tie optional means it's, well, optional.  Good to see what Miss Manners says though, it never crossed my mind to look as I've been seeing it on invitations and doing it that way my entire life!  Always good to see what other people have to say!  
    Black Tie Optional is not an actual dress code, it's a made up category.  In addition, it is rude to indicate attire or formality of an event on the invitation unless it is actually a Black Tie event or the venue has a dress code that must be followed.  Anything else is inappropriate. 
    I 100% will not be putting "Black Tie Optional" on the invite. FI wanted to compromise by putting "Black Tie Requested" instead of just "Black Tie". I explained to him that it is every bit as rude as just putting "Black Tie", and it also adds an element of confusion. Since the whole reason he and his parents think it's a good idea to put a dress code on the invites is that they think it'll avoid confusion, he conceded on that one.
  • Your venue dress code isn't black tie. Your event isn't black tie. And you don't want to force people into black tie. 

    Fi and I go to black tie events regularly and it really is one of my pet hates when people misuse it. I would never automatically assume an evening wedding is black tie. The invitation (Ecru with engraved black calligraphy) and location dictate the level of formality. But if someone puts Black Tie on their invitation, it better be Black Tie. I have never seen "black tie optional" on an invitation but that would scream to me " This event isn't black tie, I have never been to a black tie event, and I just want to pretend to be fancy"

    But I also agree that I would be frustrated about being in a gown and having to visit stations for my meal. That is very much a suit/ cocktail dress. As it was in the evening, I would most likely dress fancier, but certainly not a gown.  

    I would be embarrassed and leave very early if Fi was in a DJ and I was in a gown at a "black tie" wedding where I had to eat from a station (I love stations and have great fun at them at wedding, but it most certainly isn't black tie!). I would feel so awkward, embarrassed and over dressed. 

    The people that are going to be more casual are going to be casual no matter what. Don't have the extra awkward factor of making the people who know how to dress be over dressed and uncomfortable. 
  • kao2015 said:
    Why do they want to put Black Tie on the invitations?  Do they just want people to dress up?  Do they want to show off or something?  That's ridiculous.  I would not try to rent/buy a floor length gown which I would likely never wear again just to attend a fancy wedding at a country club wear something I already own would be more than appropriate.I know you are trying to fight against their insanity, but perhaps the easiest thing to do would be to pay for the invitations yourself and address and send them yourself. . . would that be possible?

    If you want to try and argue with your FIL's here's a list of black tie criteria. . . if your venue doesn't meet all of them, your event is technically not Black Tie:
    • Event begins after 6pm
    • High end, indoor venue
    • Valet service provided by the Bride and Groom
    • Gloved service
    • Hand passed hor d'ourves
    • Top shelf open bar with full wine list and preferably with a sommelier on site to assist with wine choices.
    • Multi course gourmet level plated meal- generally 5 to 7 courses, and preferably with dual entrees or tableside ordering
    • Real china, silver ware, glassware, linens, etc
    • Multi piece live band and and a DJ or secondary performers for when the main entertainment takes breaks
    • High end decor and custom lighting


    Now that said, I don't agree with other PP's opinion on plated vs food station meals.  I prefer food stations, I have been to very formal, near black tie events with food stations, and we had them our own near black tie level wedding.  I have never found it difficult to walk from a food station back to my table to eat, nor have I ever experienced terrible lines.  I like being able to get up from the table and walk around and mingle with people, which happens naturally when everyone else is up getting food.  It doesn't happen when you have a sit down, plated meal.  Everyone tends to just sit at their tables until the dance floor opens.

    Regarding the first point: this is absolutely not about showing off, etc. In their circle, guests are expected to wear black tie attire to any wedding after 6 pm. I think the desire to put "Black Tie" on the invite truly stems from wanting everyone to feel comfortable and avoid anyone feeling underdressed, since most but not all of the guests will dress in black tie no matter what we put on the invitation. However, that absolutely does not make it correct to do so, and that's what I've struggled to convey to them. They think they're offering a service by indicating how most people will be dressed, but I am aware and am trying to convince them that it is not our job to tell anyone how to dress and that it is rude to do so.

    In terms of the black tie event criteria--I have explained all of this, but as I said before: I have not been able to find an authoritative source confirming that information, so they aren't really taking it to heart. Also, we'll meet every one of those except the multi-course plated meal, so to the extent they think the rules are "real," they argue that we're close enough. Insert eye roll here.

    I will look into the option of paying for the invitations ourselves, though. FI has unfortunately been convinced that putting "Black Tie" on the invite is the right thing to do, so that might be a struggle, but it does seem like the mostly likely strategy to work.

    I do agree with you on food stations. I just think they're more enjoyable than a multi-course served meal.

    Thanks for taking the time to respond; I appreciate your insight and opinions! Hopefully I can get this figured out..
    If I have to queue for my meal- it isn't black tie. There should never, ever be a queue for anything at a black tie event. All food and drinks should be brought to the guests so one should never even be at the bar. 
  • Why not just make it "black tie optional" on the invites?  That is what we are doing, that's what most weddings I attend have been, that way if you have the black tie options you can wear them and if not, you know to be as dressed up as you can be.

    I will say that my FI and I were recently invited to a wedding that had NO dress code on the invites.  Luckily I looked at their wedding website where it said the dress code was "formal" otherwise we would have packed far more casual clothing being as it's outdoors at 3 pm.  It really pissed me off that it wasn't on the invite because I know a lot of people won't bother looking at the wedding website to find the info.

    I actually made sure we DIDN'T put "black tie optional" on the invites, because that isn't really a thing - it doesn't mean anything, because it's always an option to wear a gown or tux.  People will know the wedding is formal because the invite is on nice cardstock with letterpress, the address is written is calligraphy, and the wedding is at a fancy venue in the evening.  Plus, the people we're inviting know us, and know it's a more formal event.  If they want to wear a tux they absolutely can, but I didn't want people to feel compelled to rent a tux.
  • kao2015 said:
    Why do they want to put Black Tie on the invitations?  Do they just want people to dress up?  Do they want to show off or something?  That's ridiculous.  I would not try to rent/buy a floor length gown which I would likely never wear again just to attend a fancy wedding at a country club wear something I already own would be more than appropriate.I know you are trying to fight against their insanity, but perhaps the easiest thing to do would be to pay for the invitations yourself and address and send them yourself. . . would that be possible?

    If you want to try and argue with your FIL's here's a list of black tie criteria. . . if your venue doesn't meet all of them, your event is technically not Black Tie:
    • Event begins after 6pm
    • High end, indoor venue
    • Valet service provided by the Bride and Groom
    • Gloved service
    • Hand passed hor d'ourves
    • Top shelf open bar with full wine list and preferably with a sommelier on site to assist with wine choices.
    • Multi course gourmet level plated meal- generally 5 to 7 courses, and preferably with dual entrees or tableside ordering
    • Real china, silver ware, glassware, linens, etc
    • Multi piece live band and and a DJ or secondary performers for when the main entertainment takes breaks
    • High end decor and custom lighting


    Now that said, I don't agree with other PP's opinion on plated vs food station meals.  I prefer food stations, I have been to very formal, near black tie events with food stations, and we had them our own near black tie level wedding.  I have never found it difficult to walk from a food station back to my table to eat, nor have I ever experienced terrible lines.  I like being able to get up from the table and walk around and mingle with people, which happens naturally when everyone else is up getting food.  It doesn't happen when you have a sit down, plated meal.  Everyone tends to just sit at their tables until the dance floor opens.

    Regarding the first point: this is absolutely not about showing off, etc. In their circle, guests are expected to wear black tie attire to any wedding after 6 pm. I think the desire to put "Black Tie" on the invite truly stems from wanting everyone to feel comfortable and avoid anyone feeling underdressed, since most but not all of the guests will dress in black tie no matter what we put on the invitation. However, that absolutely does not make it correct to do so, and that's what I've struggled to convey to them. They think they're offering a service by indicating how most people will be dressed, but I am aware and am trying to convince them that it is not our job to tell anyone how to dress and that it is rude to do so.

    In terms of the black tie event criteria--I have explained all of this, but as I said before: I have not been able to find an authoritative source confirming that information, so they aren't really taking it to heart. Also, we'll meet every one of those except the multi-course plated meal, so to the extent they think the rules are "real," they argue that we're close enough. Insert eye roll here.

    I will look into the option of paying for the invitations ourselves, though. FI has unfortunately been convinced that putting "Black Tie" on the invite is the right thing to do, so that might be a struggle, but it does seem like the mostly likely strategy to work.

    I do agree with you on food stations. I just think they're more enjoyable than a multi-course served meal.

    Thanks for taking the time to respond; I appreciate your insight and opinions! Hopefully I can get this figured out..
    I totally understand wanting a source so, as a librarian, I'm going to suggest heading to the library and looking for etiquette books if you haven't already. That sort of information is probably there but not something you're going to find online. Or call the library directly and speak to a reference librarian and explain you're just trying to find the etiquette approved criteria for hosting a black tie event. Not the dress code, but the responsibilities of the host in terms of food, time of day, etc. They may have access to resources you wouldn't have thought of.
    image
  • See our wedding is a black tie event, however I don't want people renting tuxedos if they do not have them, hence the optional.  Seems to be how my social circle handles it as well.  I get that's not what Miss Manners says though.  Thanks for all the tips on it!
    image


  • See our wedding is a black tie event, however I don't want people renting tuxedos if they do not have them, hence the optional.  Seems to be how my social circle handles it as well.  I get that's not what Miss Manners says though.  Thanks for all the tips on it!
    Even if your wedding meets all black tie elements but you don't want to have your guests worry about dressing in appropriate black tie attire then just don't put anything.  I am sure your invites are very formal and fancy and that your venue is also formal and your event is in the evening.  A good portion of your guests will understand that they should dress formally.  There of course may be those rare handful of guests who will dress like they are going to a bbq tailgate, but they would dress like that regardless of whether you put black tie optional or not on your invite.  Trust your guests.

  • See our wedding is a black tie event, however I don't want people renting tuxedos if they do not have them, hence the optional.  Seems to be how my social circle handles it as well.  I get that's not what Miss Manners says though.  Thanks for all the tips on it!
    If your circle knows they can wear tuxes if they own them (everyone knows that), then why do you feel the need to write "Black tie optional"?

    If you're having a truly black tie event and you don't want people to feel obligated to wear black tie, just don't write anything about dress code. People already know they can wear a tux or evening gown if they want to - they don't need your permission. All this does is make it look like you don't know how to word invitations - not a slight at you personally... I get that it's common in your social circle. However as with anything else, common =/= etiquette. 
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    image
  • See our wedding is a black tie event, however I don't want people renting tuxedos if they do not have them, hence the optional.  Seems to be how my social circle handles it as well.  I get that's not what Miss Manners says though.  Thanks for all the tips on it!

    If your social circle already knows they can opt to wear a tux/gown to weddings, then you don't need to put BTO on the invitations. . .everyone already knows how to dress.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • I don't undstand why so many of you have difficulty navigating food stations in long dresses. . .aren't your dresses properly hemmed!? I've done this many times, including my own wedding. . . it wasn't any different than being in a cocktail dress.

    I just ate more carefully overall in my wedding dress ;-)

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • I don't undstand why so many of you have difficulty navigating food stations in long dresses. . .aren't your dresses properly hemmed!? I've done this many times, including my own wedding. . . it wasn't any different than being in a cocktail dress. I just ate more carefully overall in my wedding dress ;-)
    I agree.  I mean I was able to easily walk from table to table, dance and run around my reception spending time with my guests in my big ass wedding dress and wedged heels.  I was even able to play a bit of football on the field during pictures without much difficulty.  Not once did I trip over myself or my dress.  In fact it was probably one of the more comfortable gowns I have worn in my life.  Just because you are dressed up in formal attire doesn't mean that you aren't capable of doing the same things as you would be able to do in a cocktail dress.  If you have trouble walking around or getting food then you have a dress issue and probably needed better alterations.

  • I don't undstand why so many of you have difficulty navigating food stations in long dresses. . .aren't your dresses properly hemmed!? I've done this many times, including my own wedding. . . it wasn't any different than being in a cocktail dress. I just ate more carefully overall in my wedding dress ;-)
    I agree.  I mean I was able to easily walk from table to table, dance and run around my reception spending time with my guests in my big ass wedding dress and wedged heels.  I was even able to play a bit of football on the field during pictures without much difficulty.  Not once did I trip over myself or my dress.  In fact it was probably one of the more comfortable gowns I have worn in my life.  Just because you are dressed up in formal attire doesn't mean that you aren't capable of doing the same things as you would be able to do in a cocktail dress.  If you have trouble walking around or getting food then you have a dress issue and probably needed better alterations.
    I agree with you both that if walking is too difficult in a dress, it's an attire problem. 

    However, I think the thinking here is that no one (in a dress or tux) should have to do this. I think the thought here is that at a black tie event, food/drink/whatever should be brought TO the guest - they shouldn't have to go get it. 

    I don't necessarily agree that the presence of stations disqualifies the event from black tie status, but I see where people are coming from with the idea above.
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    image
  • lovegood90lovegood90 member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2014
    I don't undstand why so many of you have difficulty navigating food stations in long dresses. . .aren't your dresses properly hemmed!? I've done this many times, including my own wedding. . . it wasn't any different than being in a cocktail dress. I just ate more carefully overall in my wedding dress ;-)
    I agree.  I mean I was able to easily walk from table to table, dance and run around my reception spending time with my guests in my big ass wedding dress and wedged heels.  I was even able to play a bit of football on the field during pictures without much difficulty.  Not once did I trip over myself or my dress.  In fact it was probably one of the more comfortable gowns I have worn in my life.  Just because you are dressed up in formal attire doesn't mean that you aren't capable of doing the same things as you would be able to do in a cocktail dress.  If you have trouble walking around or getting food then you have a dress issue and probably needed better alterations.
    I agree with you both that if walking is too difficult in a dress, it's an attire problem. 

    However, I think the thinking here is that no one (in a dress or tux) should have to do this. I think the thought here is that at a black tie event, food/drink/whatever should be brought TO the guest - they shouldn't have to go get it. 

    I don't necessarily agree that the presence of stations disqualifies the event from black tie status, but I see where people are coming from with the idea above.
    To the bolded-that was my thinking too. I don't know much about black tie events, but I assume that the first two things to be absolutely checked off the list are 1) multi-course, plated meal and 2) top shelf bar. It just seems strange to me to have people be fetching their own food at a black tie event, IMO.

    Formerly martha1818

    image


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