Guys... Guys.... Does anyone here care about football? Because OMG THE ROSE BOWL.

esstee33

AprilH81 said: esstee33 said: AprilH81 said: esstee33 said: AprilH81 said: esstee33 said: They're not unrelated, because my issue is with Ohio State in general, not JUST the football program. The athletic department is an extension of the school, and there's no reason for me to support them when I don't support the school. 
So out of curiosity what schools do you support?  I'm sure we can dig up some scandal for just about anyone, again, POS students go to school everywhere.  There will be hazing for fraternities and sororities, racism, sexual assault, peer pressure to binge drink causing serious harm, cheating scandals and the list goes on and on.
Forget athletic programs, higher education itself is a big business that brings in boat loads of money.  The money is just presented as a way to better education and the "educational experience" when it goes to pay exorbitant salaries for the administration and bells and whistles to attract more students so they can rake in even more money.  I don't know about you, but I can learn just fine without a rock climbing wall, a sushi bar included in my meal plan and 4 Olympic sized pools.
None. So good luck with that.
ETA: And yeah, I get what you're arguing, and it's missing the point. The issue isn't that students do stupid things. It's that students do stupid things that go unpunished. Genuine curiosity, not snark...  Why is it the university's job to punish a student for a crime that was not committed on campus and happened before he started college?  Isn't that the job of the police?  
If the Steubinville rape had occurred on campus and OSU (or whatever college) was protecting these players then I would agree with you.  But this happened off campus before the slimeball attended OSU. 
And maybe I've forgotten some details of the case, but this guy was making fun of the victim (which don't get me wrong is HORRIFIC, he should not of made the video and he should have stood up for the victim) but didn't actually commit a crime. So why would OSU suspend/expel him?
I think the university (not just OSU, but every university) has a duty to protect their students, and when one student records a video mocking the rape (possibly even while it was happening and doing nothing to stop it from happening), that is worthy of revoking that student's scholarship, at the very least, if not outright expulsion. You could make a pretty compelling argument that the safety of other students could be at jeopardy with this psychopath on campus. 

Edited to clean up quote boxes, sweet Jesus.  I think I see your reasoning, but I still disagree.  
Being a complete slime ball and saying horrible things about a rape victim is not a crime.  He did not, to my knowledge, do anything that would threaten the safety of a fellow student.  He seems like a horrible, no good, excuse for a man, but I don't see anything that can he can be punished for without being charged with a crime.
The scholarship issue might be a different case depending on what kind of scholarship it was.  If there was a morals clause or something else that could cause OSU to re-examine the offer then it should have been done.
And please, don't think I am defending this guy or his actions (or lack thereof).  I'm trying to show that OSU (or any other university) aren't supposed to be a judge and jury, especially when the event happened in another STATE and before the perpetrator was officially enrolled at the university.
****** No boxes now apparently ******

I think the line needs to be drawn between what's wrong and what's a crime, in this case. No, there's no legal duty to report a crime. And he can say as many stupid things as publicly as he wants. Those things aren't illegal. But there is a moral obligation to not be complicit in wrongdoing. That's not even the crux of my issue with Ohio State, though -- had Nodianos simply failed to report witnessing the rape, I'd think he was a horrible person, but not that it was worthy of revoking the scholarship or expelling him. The issue for me lies in the fact that he published a video clearly showing no empathy for the girl getting raped, laughed about rape and murder like they're fun games, and at least heavily implying that he was there and did nothing to stop it, because it was soooooo hilarious. People like that represent, to me, a danger to the student population. 

In the fall, an Ohio State student lost his full-ride scholarship because he ran out onto the football field during a game. He was drunk, unsurprisingly. They claimed it was criminal trespassing. So does the fact that this kid's offense was actually a crime make it worse than the horrible shit Nodianos did? 

kmomac

I'm not going to quote you, esstee, because the quote boxes seemed to have gotten a little, uh, messy haha. 

I see what you're saying as far as the Nodianos role in the Steubenville rape case. Not that I am sticking up for him at all, because I think it's completely wrong, but I wonder if the university is torn between his actions and when they all occurred. When I coached, just in high school, there were so many inappropriate things that happened (i.e. drinking underage and posting it to social media). Not to the extent of the rape case, because obviously that's a different playing field. My point is that when these things were reported to administration, we couldn't punish the kids because we didn't see them, because they didn't get caught by police, etc. The list went on, but I could never punish my athletes despite them representing my program in an illegal way. I think schools & administration get caught in the middle of knowing what's right and wrong, but also having a legality to face too. I don't know that OSU could punish this kid because of a past wrongdoing, especially since it didn't happen while it was on their campus. Does that make sense? I was up late watching football.

Back to the whole OP, yes I watched both games. I'm a huuuuuuuge Buckeye fan and was thrilled with the results last night!!! The team worked really effing hard this year to get here. I was also happy to see FSU go down. I'm not a Jameis fan at all.

esstee33

kmomac said:

I'm not going to quote you, esstee, because the quote boxes seemed to have gotten a little, uh, messy haha. 

I see what you're saying as far as the Nodianos role in the Steubenville rape case. Not that I am sticking up for him at all, because I think it's completely wrong, but I wonder if the university is torn between his actions and when they all occurred. When I coached, just in high school, there were so many inappropriate things that happened (i.e. drinking underage and posting it to social media). Not to the extent of the rape case, because obviously that's a different playing field. My point is that when these things were reported to administration, we couldn't punish the kids because we didn't see them, because they didn't get caught by police, etc. The list went on, but I could never punish my athletes despite them representing my program in an illegal way. I think schools & administration get caught in the middle of knowing what's right and wrong, but also having a legality to face too. I don't know that OSU could punish this kid because of a past wrongdoing, especially since it didn't happen while it was on their campus. Does that make sense? I was up late watching football.

Back to the whole OP, yes I watched both games. I'm a huuuuuuuge Buckeye fan and was thrilled with the results last night!!! The team worked really effing hard this year to get here. I was also happy to see FSU go down. I'm not a Jameis fan at all.

No, I totally understand the reasons OSU had their hands tied because it all happened when and where it did. My entire argument is: I think they should have taken a stand and at least revoked his scholarship. The fact that they didn't caused me to rethink my support of a school that would allow someone like that on their campus and even pay for their tuition. I can't support a school like that, so I stopped supporting them, in any way I could -- I had an Ohio State-branded debit card that I turned in for the regular ol' bank-issued one. Maybe it's not much, but at least it's something.

And, for the record, even though that shit stain initially dropped out of school because of the death threats he received, I'm pretty sure he's back at OSU -- if you Google his name, you'll find some essays he wrote, ostensibly for class assignments, as recently as October 2014. How ironic and unfortunate that they're about law. 

I would really have liked this to become a legal case, because I think the legal questions it raised are extremely important, and could have become major precedents for how we handle cases like this in future (as much as I wish there weren't going to inevitably be more cases like this in future). 

kmomac

esstee33 said:

kmomac said:

I'm not going to quote you, esstee, because the quote boxes seemed to have gotten a little, uh, messy haha. 

I see what you're saying as far as the Nodianos role in the Steubenville rape case. Not that I am sticking up for him at all, because I think it's completely wrong, but I wonder if the university is torn between his actions and when they all occurred. When I coached, just in high school, there were so many inappropriate things that happened (i.e. drinking underage and posting it to social media). Not to the extent of the rape case, because obviously that's a different playing field. My point is that when these things were reported to administration, we couldn't punish the kids because we didn't see them, because they didn't get caught by police, etc. The list went on, but I could never punish my athletes despite them representing my program in an illegal way. I think schools & administration get caught in the middle of knowing what's right and wrong, but also having a legality to face too. I don't know that OSU could punish this kid because of a past wrongdoing, especially since it didn't happen while it was on their campus. Does that make sense? I was up late watching football.

Back to the whole OP, yes I watched both games. I'm a huuuuuuuge Buckeye fan and was thrilled with the results last night!!! The team worked really effing hard this year to get here. I was also happy to see FSU go down. I'm not a Jameis fan at all.

No, I totally understand the reasons OSU had their hands tied because it all happened when and where it did. My entire argument is: I think they should have taken a stand and at least revoked his scholarship. The fact that they didn't caused me to rethink my support of a school that would allow someone like that on their campus and even pay for their tuition. I can't support a school like that, so I stopped supporting them, in any way I could -- I had an Ohio State-branded debit card that I turned in for the regular ol' bank-issued one. Maybe it's not much, but at least it's something.

And, for the record, even though that shit stain initially dropped out of school because of the death threats he received, I'm pretty sure he's back at OSU -- if you Google his name, you'll find some essays he wrote, ostensibly for class assignments, as recently as October 2014. How ironic and unfortunate that they're about law. 

I would really have liked this to become a legal case, because I think the legal questions it raised are extremely important, and could have become major precedents for how we handle cases like this in future (as much as I wish there weren't going to inevitably be more cases like this in future). 

Totally get that. I can't say I disagree with you on revoking the scholarship. I'll have to agree to disagree on your support of the actual university though. I'm what we like to call a "die-hard."

I like your idea of it becoming a legal case, because I think there needs to be less gray area in this issue. I know speaking from the NCAA standpoint, which doesn't affect general student populations, the consequences for questionable behavior has been really inconsistent. 

AprilH81

esstee33 said:

kmomac said:

I'm not going to quote you, esstee, because the quote boxes seemed to have gotten a little, uh, messy haha. 

I see what you're saying as far as the Nodianos role in the Steubenville rape case. Not that I am sticking up for him at all, because I think it's completely wrong, but I wonder if the university is torn between his actions and when they all occurred. When I coached, just in high school, there were so many inappropriate things that happened (i.e. drinking underage and posting it to social media). Not to the extent of the rape case, because obviously that's a different playing field. My point is that when these things were reported to administration, we couldn't punish the kids because we didn't see them, because they didn't get caught by police, etc. The list went on, but I could never punish my athletes despite them representing my program in an illegal way. I think schools & administration get caught in the middle of knowing what's right and wrong, but also having a legality to face too. I don't know that OSU could punish this kid because of a past wrongdoing, especially since it didn't happen while it was on their campus. Does that make sense? I was up late watching football.

Back to the whole OP, yes I watched both games. I'm a huuuuuuuge Buckeye fan and was thrilled with the results last night!!! The team worked really effing hard this year to get here. I was also happy to see FSU go down. I'm not a Jameis fan at all.

No, I totally understand the reasons OSU had their hands tied because it all happened when and where it did. My entire argument is: I think they should have taken a stand and at least revoked his scholarship. The fact that they didn't caused me to rethink my support of a school that would allow someone like that on their campus and even pay for their tuition. I can't support a school like that, so I stopped supporting them, in any way I could -- I had an Ohio State-branded debit card that I turned in for the regular ol' bank-issued one. Maybe it's not much, but at least it's something.

And, for the record, even though that shit stain initially dropped out of school because of the death threats he received, I'm pretty sure he's back at OSU -- if you Google his name, you'll find some essays he wrote, ostensibly for class assignments, as recently as October 2014. How ironic and unfortunate that they're about law. 

I would really have liked this to become a legal case, because I think the legal questions it raised are extremely important, and could have become major precedents for how we handle cases like this in future (as much as I wish there weren't going to inevitably be more cases like this in future). 

Hypothetical: If OSU decided to make a stand and revoke the scholarship or expel a student for being involved in an activity that may be unethical but not illegal, or a situation where a student was charged for a crime but he/she was found not guilty or the charges ended up being dropped...  

Where does the university draw the line?  Making fun of a rape victim = expelled, suspected bullying = expelled, underage drinking = loss of scholarship, the case can be made that eventually you would hit a student with truly punitive punishments for relatively minor transactions.  A student with a grudge (or an agenda) could make allegations against a roommate, frenemy or rival that could cost the other student their education.

Where do you draw the line in the sand?  You can't.  Colleges and universities should protect their students but they can't be judge or jury, they aren't equipped in most cases (Brigham Young being the only possibility that comes to mind) to handle that task because their priority is (or should be) to educate.  Let the justice system handle it.

Unless a student or potential student is making active threats or is convicted of a crime the university should stay out of it.

Again, this guy is a slime ball for his behavior and I'm not defending his actions.

esstee33

kmomac said:

esstee33 said:

kmomac said:

I'm not going to quote you, esstee, because the quote boxes seemed to have gotten a little, uh, messy haha. 

I see what you're saying as far as the Nodianos role in the Steubenville rape case. Not that I am sticking up for him at all, because I think it's completely wrong, but I wonder if the university is torn between his actions and when they all occurred. When I coached, just in high school, there were so many inappropriate things that happened (i.e. drinking underage and posting it to social media). Not to the extent of the rape case, because obviously that's a different playing field. My point is that when these things were reported to administration, we couldn't punish the kids because we didn't see them, because they didn't get caught by police, etc. The list went on, but I could never punish my athletes despite them representing my program in an illegal way. I think schools & administration get caught in the middle of knowing what's right and wrong, but also having a legality to face too. I don't know that OSU could punish this kid because of a past wrongdoing, especially since it didn't happen while it was on their campus. Does that make sense? I was up late watching football.

Back to the whole OP, yes I watched both games. I'm a huuuuuuuge Buckeye fan and was thrilled with the results last night!!! The team worked really effing hard this year to get here. I was also happy to see FSU go down. I'm not a Jameis fan at all.

No, I totally understand the reasons OSU had their hands tied because it all happened when and where it did. My entire argument is: I think they should have taken a stand and at least revoked his scholarship. The fact that they didn't caused me to rethink my support of a school that would allow someone like that on their campus and even pay for their tuition. I can't support a school like that, so I stopped supporting them, in any way I could -- I had an Ohio State-branded debit card that I turned in for the regular ol' bank-issued one. Maybe it's not much, but at least it's something.

And, for the record, even though that shit stain initially dropped out of school because of the death threats he received, I'm pretty sure he's back at OSU -- if you Google his name, you'll find some essays he wrote, ostensibly for class assignments, as recently as October 2014. How ironic and unfortunate that they're about law. 

I would really have liked this to become a legal case, because I think the legal questions it raised are extremely important, and could have become major precedents for how we handle cases like this in future (as much as I wish there weren't going to inevitably be more cases like this in future). 

Totally get that. I can't say I disagree with you on revoking the scholarship. I'll have to agree to disagree on your support of the actual university though. I'm what we like to call a "die-hard."

I like your idea of it becoming a legal case, because I think there needs to be less gray area in this issue. I know speaking from the NCAA standpoint, which doesn't affect general student populations, the consequences for questionable behavior has been really inconsistent. 

Oh, I was a "die-hard" also. My dad went there. I almost went there. I was born and raised in Ohio, and everyone I know is an OSU fan. But this was more important than football to me. Ditto to the shit going on in the NFL: I've been an NFL fan my entire life, but that's done now too. And the NFL shit hasn't even been "my" team. (OK, well, my NFC team was involved in some mega-shady things a few years ago, but my AFC team is only guilty of being a colossal fucking failure every year.)

I can't in good conscience support organizations that sweep wrongdoing under the rug if you're talented enough.

RE: the bolded: Yes, absolutely. So long as none of this is talked about to any kind of useful result, and so far as schools will continue overlooking bad behavior, it's going to continue happening. There need to be rules, and they need to actually be enforced for everyone.

kmomac

I can see your reasons for not supporting, but I don't see OSU with a consistent trend of covering up behavior. Yes, there was the whole "tattoo gate" thing, but I felt that the punishments were handed down and served accordingly. Like April said, it's not easy to draw a line in the sand, and revoking one kid's scholarship for behavior that happened prior to his attendance in the university doesn't seem to be black and white. I'm sure it's not easy to make a decision like that. Like you said, though, there needs to be consistency. There are quite a few schools across the nation with 'questionable' handling of behaviors. I also get that schools are run by humans, who can make mistakes and not handle things the right way. 

The gist of all of that is, I wish there was one right answer for all of this. 

esstee33

No, I see both of your points. I'm also sure it's not an easy, black and white decision, but then what is? Should we not hold accountable organizations that are supposed to look out for the well-being of their student populations just because it's a hard decision? 

There's no right answer. I chose the answer that makes me feel better. 

photokitty

for the record, the drunk student who rushed the field did not lose his scholarship and was not expelled. It was reported that he was going to lose his scholarship that was awarded by Evans scholars, not by Ohio State, but they change their mind and he still had his full ride. Ohio State had nothing to do with the scholarship as Evans scholars is a separate and national organization that can and does what they want to with their scholarship foundation and money.

esstee33

photokitty said:

for the record, the drunk student who rushed the field did not lose his scholarship and was not expelled. It was reported that he was going to lose his scholarship that was awarded by Evans scholars, not by Ohio State, but they change their mind and he still had his full ride. Ohio State had nothing to do with the scholarship as Evans scholars is a separate and national organization that can and does what they want to with their scholarship foundation and money.

Well, I stand corrected on that, but my initial point stands: people can lose scholarships for all sorts of ridiculous things. 

kmomac

esstee33 said:

No, I see both of your points. I'm also sure it's not an easy, black and white decision, but then what is? Should we not hold accountable organizations that are supposed to look out for the well-being of their student populations just because it's a hard decision? 

There's no right answer. I chose the answer that makes me feel better. 

And you should totally stick to your guns if that's how you feel. :thumbs up: I'm sure as hell glad I'm not in a position of power at a major university. I don't know that I'd want to be responsible for major decisions like that.

Wegl13

JCbride2015 said:

OT but-- you are fostering a guinea pig?  And it needs nursing?  I LOVE guinea pigs.  Story and pics please!

OT answer (finally- I worked 11 straight hours today after being off for 6 weeks and I am grumpy and zonked)-
The short story: without getting into a lot of detail, on my very first day of work we were presented with a company owned GP that was emaciated and looked like mega shit, but would eat like a fucking champion if you sat him up and shoved food in his face. I brought him home and my DH fell in love with him. Every day has been "the day"- he's lost weight and lost weight and acted like he was giving up, but my boss thought he looked neurologic so we started him on 'roids yesterday. He is definitely more alert, has gained a bit of weight, and seems to be holding himself up a little bit more, so today is not "the day"- it looks like we are going to keep shoving fluids, roids, and antibiotics in him until Monday.
I actually thought about making a separate post about this because it has made my entire life so stressful this week, mostly because of how attached my husband has become. I don't like pocket pets as a general rule and was mostly fostering this one to learn more about GP medical care in a "hopeless case".... And now it looks like this thing is going to become a permanent resident of our home if he makes it, and break my husbands heart if he doesn't. I keep trying to make sure he calls him "dead guinea pig" (to stay detached) but I think he named him Chester or something.
Anyways if you are the praying sort, this sounds dumb but... Please good thoughts for "dead guinea pig." I really hate seeing my husband this sad.
And on the thread jacked topic: I think colleges, as well as companies, need to be very careful in becoming judge and jury in moral/ethical/legal cases. We have actually had a lot of discussions about that around here, and I really think it should be the local police force, not the university, who is charged with keeping the citizens/students safe. Now we can all have a discussion about how well THAT works but then I think we need to start a new thread.