What would you have done?

littlemushroom

climbingwife said:

My grandma would not have been able to get into the car by herself.

She could not even stand. She couldn't move.

Your grandma still managed to drive herself home, get out of the car on her own, and get inside on her own. She could clearly move somewhat, for at least a while after the injury. With the adrenaline racing after the fall, I bet she seemed shaken, but otherwise not seriously injured to the complete strangers.

It is awful that your grandma was in that much pain. I know I would be worried sick if it was my grandma. But I also think the alternative to strangers taking her at her word about her condition and if she needed help is worse. It makes me sick to think when I get older that people are going to ignore what I say simply because they think they know better than me because I am old. I know I wouldn't wish that on my grandma at all. My grandma is old and frail, but her mind is still sharp as a tack. She deserves the right to make her own decisions about what kind of medical attention she receives and when. That hasn't changed just because she is 92.

climbingsingle

Just to be clear, she didn't walk into her house. She crawled and dragged herself. Her hands are bruised like crazy. And then was stranded for 3 hours until her neighbor found her.

OliveOilsMom

Climbing, if no one has done it yet.  Someone should go to the grocery store and file an injury report on her behalf.  This way, there is a fresh record of the incident and her bills could be completely paid for by the store. 

hellosweetie1015

It hurts to see your grandma in pain. It is awful and sometimes quite terrifying. Give her a hug and love on her. Be thankful for what the Samaritans DID do - even if you're angry they didn't do what perhaps should have been done. I think it's okay to be angry at them. You will more than likely never see them again, and you feel they did not do enough to help your grandmother. 

I do think you need to place a LOT of that anger on the store manager though. It was his/her responsibility to follow their SOPs in the event someone is hurt on their property. It seems likely that s/he failed to do so, quite severely. I would bring ALL of that anger squarely down on his/her head, in whatever form you so choose. I recommend a good lawyer. 

VulgarGirl

climbingwife said:

Just to be clear, she didn't walk into her house. She crawled and dragged herself. Her hands are bruised like crazy. And then was stranded for 3 hours until her neighbor found her.

So what you're saying is she's totally fine and is just being dramatic?

(this is sarcasm, I'm hoping grandma climbing gets well soon)

climbingsingle

MagicInk said:

climbingwife said:

Just to be clear, she didn't walk into her house. She crawled and dragged herself. Her hands are bruised like crazy. And then was stranded for 3 hours until her neighbor found her.

So what you're saying is she's totally fine and is just being dramatic?

(this is sarcasm, I'm hoping grandma climbing gets well soon)

She's even asking for a tv now. The nerve!

levieenrose

I am so sorry to hear about your grandmother, Climbingwife. She sounds like a tough lady, and I hope that she gets through this with good spirits.

KatieinBkln said pretty much exactly what I would have. Just calling an ambulance does no one a harm financially or otherwise. The EMTs can encourage someone to go, but I'm pretty sure they cannot force someone to go against their will unless they are unstable. If she was safe enough where she was already located (I realize it was a parking lot, so maybe not) she shouldn't have been moved if she couldn't do it herself. 

While I totally agree that one should respect others' wishes (whether one is mature, mentally capable, of legal age, or none of the above), it's also important to remember that--in all honesty--"independence" is a fallacy for every one of us. We all rely on each other  in one capacity or another (a la E. Warren) and we're all mortal. 

If you don't get someone help because they have really convinced you they don't need help or  because accepting your particular offer(s) is against their religious/cultural/moral beliefs, that's one thing. But--and this is obviously from my own ethical standpoint--if you knowingly assist someone who is putting themselves (and possibly others!) in danger only to momentarily save their pride, I see that as irresponsible behavior.  

Like PPs have said, I'm sure that those people acted with the best intentions and were ignorant of the danger in which they put Climbingwife's grandmother. I wish basic first aid information was more widespread.  But regardless of their intentions, they may have caused more harm than good and Climbing is justified in her indignance. 

ETF: font and clarification

[Deleted User]

bethsmiles

I'm so sorry to hear about your grandma! The whole situation is just awful. My grandma was in a car accident 2 years ago and broke her hip. I hope your grandmas has a speedy recovery.

As for what I would have done - I was a lifeguard in high school and have taken several CPR/first aid classes since then so at the very least I would have stayed with her until she called a family member. However, it's amazing how even the basics of first aid aren't common knowledge. Once I was at an indoor soccer game with some friends. One of the players fell, smacked her head into a wall and then started having a seizure. I had to yell at people not to move her after she stopped seizing and was unconscious! People don't understand the damage they can do. So while I'm sure the people who "helped" had good intentions, good intentions don't mean you did the right thing.

jdluvr06

I hope your grandma feels better soon.

Personally I would have called an ambulance. I have a very stubborn old woman in my life, my great grandmother, so I get first hand that sometimes you have to do something, like call an ambulance, despite said person's protest for their own good. 

theartistformerlyknownas

MagicInk said:

climbingwife said:

Just to be clear, she didn't walk into her house. She crawled and dragged herself. Her hands are bruised like crazy. And then was stranded for 3 hours until her neighbor found her.

So what you're saying is she's totally fine and is just being dramatic?

(this is sarcasm, I'm hoping grandma climbing gets well soon)

You failed to use the appropriate sarcasm font. Your sarcasm has thus not been recorded.

KatieinBkln

lolo883 said:

MagicInk said:

climbingwife said:

Just to be clear, she didn't walk into her house. She crawled and dragged herself. Her hands are bruised like crazy. And then was stranded for 3 hours until her neighbor found her.

So what you're saying is she's totally fine and is just being dramatic?

(this is sarcasm, I'm hoping grandma climbing gets well soon)

You failed to use the appropriate sarcasm font. Your sarcasm has thus not been recorded.

Definitely not legitimate.

Sugargirl1019

Climbing, I'm so sorry to hear about your grandmother's injury. Prayers for her and you all that she stays strong and does all her therapy!

So, this is what I would have done: old lady falls, cannot get up. I go over, kneel down next to her and say that I am a nurse, can I help in any way? Are you hurting? And despite her saying "I'm fine", I would say 'you need to be seen by a doctor to make sure you are fine. Can I call an ambulance or a family member to take you to the hospital?' I would talk with her to let the shock of falling calm down and so she can try to trust me.

I would not help her into her car.

Here's why. We don't know if she bruised her hip, broke her hip, or even broke her pelvis in the fall. I assume the worst may have happened, and treat the condition personally as such, because I know that a broken pelvis can bleed A LOT internally, and hold over 3 L of blood before it is discovered. People die of this. The goal in an emergency is to stabilize so more bleeding does not occur. This is the same with injury to the neck. You get a "stupid" collar on your neck until it can be cleared that you don't have a broken vertebrae because if we just let you move around normally, YOURE PARALYZED. Internal hemorrhage, paralyzed.. Both things we try to avoid in a trauma situation.

I would be firm but calm with the lady about my decisions and also explain why I would see a doctor and not get into the car. She can refuse the help of paramedics when they arrive, and she won't be billed, but they have more convincing skills I bet than the average person on the street to convince someone to seek medical help at the hospital. If you don't have medical training, calling for paramedics to assess and recommend the next course of action would be the best thing.

I'm really glad those people in the parking lot helped your grandmother and rendered aid rather than turning their head and walking away. I see where they were coming from, trying to help her into her car. But since she couldn't move her leg, I'd be doing something different.

Thankfully, their actions did not injure your grandmother further. Be thankful someone was there to offer help, and focus on your grandmothers recovery. I hope you get to feeling better about this traumatic situation!

sophhabobopha

To be honest, I understand why they didn't call for her. She told them not to. She's an adult, you know? But her not being able to walk would have changed things for me. I probably would have driven her to a hospital. 

sophhabobopha

climbingwife said:

Just to be clear, she didn't walk into her house. She crawled and dragged herself. Her hands are bruised like crazy. And then was stranded for 3 hours until her neighbor found her.

Holy fuck. Your grandma's one hardcore motherfucker.

I'd like to do shots with her once she's better.

climbingsingle

She really is a badass. We had to take her ladder away because she kept climbing up to clean out her gutters. She loves to mow her lawn still too. Last summer I went to see her and she was outside with a giant hedge trimmer hacking away at her hedges.

FiancB

So if they did call an ambulance and she refused care, then what?  They can't help if she insists she doesn't need it.  I'll add it is true that there is no charge for services if they don't transport.  They can always come check up on the situation.  A lot of people don't realize this.  A lot of people also don't realize that an ambulance ride, if it does happen, is often not covered by insurance (found that the hard way!).  I also think people tend to think of ambulances as being for immediate, life threatening help.  Like a stroke or heart attack.  A broken hip is a major injury but is not immediately life threatening.  Meanwhile they are just not sure what to do and grandma's insisting that she's fine and just needs help up. 

So grandma says no to ambulance, they call a family member instead.  Then what?  They probably have a little more power of persuasion than a stranger, but then they would've also had not a whole lot of options but call an ambulance against her wishes or load her up in the car.  At least then she's not driving, but there's still the issue of moving her. 

Or she refuses any help.  We know we shouldn't move an injured person, but is it better to let her lay on icy cement until she comes to her senses and lets medical personnel help her? 

People do dumb things under pressure.  A classmate was telling a story of how she saw a man collapse, seize, and then his heart stopped beating.  Guess what the people he was around did?  Gathered around and stared at him.  And these were people he knew, not strangers.  My classmate had to tell one person to call 9-1-1, another person to start CPR, and another to go get an AED and to keep doing CPR until help arrived. 

I mean, I read this and was just glad someone at least tried to help.  Many people just freeze. In public spaces, many injuries go ignored because of the crowd effect.  The first impulse of most people is to just keep going about their day, especially if it's a violent issue (which it wasn't here, just saying). 

The people that had no idea what they were doing overstepped one boundary by jumping in and another by following what she wanted, jumping another by being assertive and calling an ambulance anyway, while it would've been ideal, is unfortunately probably unrealistic. 

I mean now we know that a manager was involved and he absolutely should have known better but I'm going with the original story for the sake of discussion.  

Are they doctors? Let's hope not. Are they CPR/first aid trained? Doesn't sound like it. Are they dumb? Maybe. But it sounds like both parties were kind of reactive in this situation and  both kicking themselves for not doing things a little differently.  Hindsight's 20/20 though.  I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying I can see how someone's first impulse would be to do as asked by the hurt person without really thinking it through. 

And that's why I think CPR/first aid training should be part of a high school curriculum. *steps off soap box*

Hope grandma feels better. 

ETA: holy fuck that got long. 

lyndausvi

As the manager of the store I would have called the ambulance.  No question.  The US is very sue happy and there is no way I'm putting myself in a position to cause myself or the company any additional issues.  I can almost guarantee the company has procedures on this and they were NOT followed.   That is pretty messed up he put her in the car.  I'm actually in shock over that report.

As a random customer, well that is a little trickier.   I'm always one who jumps in and helps someone.  I've had years of First Aid.  I would ask a lot of questions.   I might have helped her up  if she felt she was well enough to get up (lots of people need a little assistance getting up from a fall).   I would then assess the situation and go from there.    If she hurt her left leg and was driving an automatic car I might not push an ambulance and/or calling someone like I would if it was her right leg that was hurt. If she had fallen on her head, then I would be way more persistent.  It really just depends on the actually situation.

climbingsingle

It was her right hip. She drove home with her left leg.

Good news is that she's out of surgery.

luckya23

climbingwife said:

It was her right hip. She drove home with her left leg.

Good news is that she's out of surgery.

I'm glad she got through the surgery!

However, if SHE didn't recognize how serious the situation was and put *herself* in the position of driving home seriously impaired, how were strangers supposed to know/insist?

This totally sounds like something my grandfather would do, and I would be pissed as hell at his stubbornness.  He's also having a really hard time letting go of his "able" years, and he takes offense at the suggestion that he may need help.  Luckily he's at least super cautious about the weather, and luckily my grandmother basically doesn't leave the house in the winter except for doctor appointments, which she would happily cancel over the forecast!

hellosweetie1015

climbingwife said:

It was her right hip. She drove home with her left leg.

Good news is that she's out of surgery.

I'm so glad to hear that! Keep us posted. I'm thinking about her! No matter the mess before she got there, I'm glad she got into surgery quicker than expected.

Viczaesar

I think others have done a good job discussing the issue.  I just want to give you a big hug, Climbing.  My elderly, frail, already on hospice father broke his hip in August, and they had to wait several days before they could do the surgery because his odds of surviving the surgery itself were so low.  They ended up doing a modified anesthesia situation because they were sure that if they did general anesthesia he would never wake up.  He's been on Hospice for going on 4 years now, ever since he fell and broke his pelvis.  He remains on Hospice because his heart ejection rate is below 20%, which is "barely compatible with life."  Waiting those days while they decided what to do about the surgery was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do; I was in a town 5 hours away teaching summer session and couldn't go to them.  My sister was available and flew up to help them.  And then last week my parents were hit by someone who ran a red light and my father's leg/hip was reinjured, and again I wasn't there and couldn't help.  I know the feeling of fear and anxiety and incredible frustration when a loved one is hurt and there isn't anything you can do to fix it, and when you wish you could have been there to help when it happened.  I pray that your grandmother's surgery and recovery go well.  

theartistformerlyknownas

climbingwife said:

She really is a badass. We had to take her ladder away because she kept climbing up to clean out her gutters. She loves to mow her lawn still too. Last summer I went to see her and she was outside with a giant hedge trimmer hacking away at her hedges.

Let's talk more about how crazy grandparents are.

We were at H's grandparents' house the weekend before last installing shower safety bars because they're both unsteady on their feet. Meanwhile Grandma is complaining about the dead bugs in her skylight, and how "I'd just get up there and clean it myself but (her daughter) took my ladder! It's no trouble at all, Grandpa holds it steady and I climb up, open it up, bugs fall onto the sheet on the floor. I just need my ladder!" No, lady. No. You're a thousand years old and use a walker, no ladders for you.

climbingsingle

Viczaesar said:

I think others have done a good job discussing the issue.  I just want to give you a big hug, Climbing.  My elderly, frail, already on hospice father broke his hip in August, and they had to wait several days before they could do the surgery because his odds of surviving the surgery itself were so low.  They ended up doing a modified anesthesia situation because they were sure that if they did general anesthesia he would never wake up.  He's been on Hospice for going on 4 years now, ever since he fell and broke his pelvis.  He remains on Hospice because his heart ejection rate is below 20%, which is "barely compatible with life."  Waiting those days while they decided what to do about the surgery was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do; I was in a town 5 hours away teaching summer session and couldn't go to them.  My sister was available and flew up to help them.  And then last week my parents were hit by someone who ran a red light and my father's leg/hip was reinjured, and again I wasn't there and couldn't help.  I know the feeling of fear and anxiety and incredible frustration when a loved one is hurt and there isn't anything you can do to fix it, and when you wish you could have been there to help when it happened.  I pray that your grandmother's surgery and recovery go well.  

Oh my gosh. What an ordeal. I'm so sorry!

hellosweetie1015

My 83-at-the-time grandmother got tripped in NYC a few years ago (intentionally, we suspect - it was around that time when that punching game was going on). She shoved her companions off once they got her off the ground (and it really didn't hurt her too bad; her knee was fucked up but nothing was broken) and hobbled around for the rest of the day. The next day she was down for the count though.

She is the reason we travel. If she didn't have so much crap to do at her house, I suspect she would be in an RV driving around the country. She is wholly independent, and I really think the only reason she lets us tag along on her trips is to keep my mother from worrying about her more than she already does. She's the one we went to London and Paris with this Christmas, she's going back with the companions from the NYC tripping trip in April, and she's talking about us going to maybe Italy this year.

She also had her first taste of champagne in Paris on New Years. Not a Grammy to do shots with but she's fucking badass anyway. I love her.

natswild

I'm so sorry that your grandmother is going through this, climbing.  Glad to hear she's through surgery already.

Now, on to my soapbox.  I'm an EMT, and with the fall that she had, no one would be able to tell if it was a bruise, a break, a broken pelvis as a PP mentioned, which is indeed life threatening, she could have also potentially fractured her spine.  It doesn't cost anything to call the ambulance, just if she's transported.  I can't tell you just HOW frustrating it is when people do exactly as these good samaritans did, and bring the injured person to the hospital themselves, or similar to climbing's grandmother. 

The potential for major injury is very high, particularly for the elderly.

 A couple of examples-one person was motorbiking, went over a jump, landed hard, and felt something was wrong, so he got back on his bike, drove 30 minutes to home, and laid on the lawn.  His uncle drove him to the hospital instead of calling the ambulance, meaning, among other things, NO PAIN RELIEF.  After x-rays, he had fractured 3 vertebra.  We also had had to do an extrication from the back seat of the truck, which was very difficult given the space, and caused him more pain.

Another person was quadding, had a roll over with engine oil all over him, and ended up with third degree burns to 20% of his body.  His family put him into the lake, to cool the burns, then brought him in, about a 45 minute drive.  Again, NO PAIN RELIEF.  In his case, because he'd not been assessed by EMTs prior to coming to the hospital, it meant that he couldn't receive morphine until the doctor had thoroughly assessed him, which meant he was suffering for a long time from when he got injured until he was able to get pain relief (never mind being treated).

That being said, I would appreciate that the good samaritans tried to help.  The grocery store manager needs to be hammered hard.  I would also suggest getting it documented and an injury claim going ASAP.

Sending you and your grandma hugs, @climbing!

climbingsingle

natswild said:

I'm so sorry that your grandmother is going through this, climbing.  Glad to hear she's through surgery already.

Now, on to my soapbox.  I'm an EMT, and with the fall that she had, no one would be able to tell if it was a bruise, a break, a broken pelvis as a PP mentioned, which is indeed life threatening, she could have also potentially fractured her spine.  It doesn't cost anything to call the ambulance, just if she's transported.  I can't tell you just HOW frustrating it is when people do exactly as these good samaritans did, and bring the injured person to the hospital themselves, or similar to climbing's grandmother. 

The potential for major injury is very high, particularly for the elderly.

 A couple of examples-one person was motorbiking, went over a jump, landed hard, and felt something was wrong, so he got back on his bike, drove 30 minutes to home, and laid on the lawn.  His uncle drove him to the hospital instead of calling the ambulance, meaning, among other things, NO PAIN RELIEF.  After x-rays, he had fractured 3 vertebra.  We also had had to do an extrication from the back seat of the truck, which was very difficult given the space, and caused him more pain.

Another person was quadding, had a roll over with engine oil all over him, and ended up with third degree burns to 20% of his body.  His family put him into the lake, to cool the burns, then brought him in, about a 45 minute drive.  Again, NO PAIN RELIEF.  In his case, because he'd not been assessed by EMTs prior to coming to the hospital, it meant that he couldn't receive morphine until the doctor had thoroughly assessed him, which meant he was suffering for a long time from when he got injured until he was able to get pain relief (never mind being treated).

That being said, I would appreciate that the good samaritans tried to help.  The grocery store manager needs to be hammered hard.  I would also suggest getting it documented and an injury claim going ASAP.

Sending you and your grandma hugs, @climbing!

Thank you! And honestly, thank you everyone for all the good thoughts. 

I am planning on going to the grocery store this weekend to calmly speak with someone to let them know what happened. 

natswild

Glad to hear it

emmaaa

I hope your grandma is resting well today! she sounds like a tough cookie. Best wishes on her recovery process!

lyndausvi

I'm glad your grandma is doing better.

I think talking to the store about the manager is a good idea.

That said, I firmly believe in personal responsibility.   Your grandmother CHOOSE to go out in bad weather.   Yes, I think businesses should clean the parking lots in a reasonable way, however this is mother nature here.   There is no way to guarantee 100% ice free areas.  It's just unrealistic.

She fell, that really sucks.  I have a hard time believing the store's policies do not including calling an ambulance.  So that should absolutely be addressed.

But back to grandma.  She CHOOSE to drive, using her left foot.  WTF is that about?   She CHOOSE not to call a family member or friend.  At ANY TIME she could just stopped driving, signaled someone for help, driven herself to the doctor's or the hospital.  Instead she drove herself home and then dragged herself in the house.

I really dislike we live in a world where we are quick to judge and/or blame other people's actions when our own are just as bad or even worse.    Sorry to be harsh but grandma messed up here.   She did.     So while I can appreciate you wanting to direct your angry to people you do not know, your grandmother's actions AFTER SHE FELL, put her in the position she got herself in.

It's okay to be angry with the situation, but it's never good blaming others that your grandmother drove home with her left leg and then dragged herself up to the house.   That was 100% her choice. 

It sucks to see someone you love get old and make poor judgments based on stubbornness.   Been there, done that.  

Thoughts and prayers she recovers quickly.