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Invites and Paper

Addressing question

ladies, I cannot believe we are finally ready to address the envelopes!! 
here is my question: 
I know you are supposed to word married couples where the wife took the husbands last name like this 
Mr. and Mrs. John Smith. 

But I can't help feeling weird about it. It just feels so antiquated, the woman doesn't even get to be mentioned by first name? Is this what everyone is doing? 
- The stars, like dust, encircle me in living mists of light. And all of space I seem to see in one vast burst of sight. 
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Re: Addressing question

  • CMGragainCMGragain member
    10000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 25 Answers
    edited April 2015
    You are inviting people to a wedding.  There were feminists 130 years ago, who believed that marriage itself was antiquated and sexist.
    When  you address personal mail, you traditionally address the recipient by their titles, not their names.  This is an old tradition from the days when first names were reserved for family and very close friends, not just casual acquaintances.

    My title is Mrs. John Doe
    My name is Jane Doe

    If you prefer, you may address your invitations to "Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe".  This can be difficult if the last name is Katzenjammer.  Remember that YOUR preference is not the important determining factor.  It is the recipient's preference that should be considered.  Older people often prefer traditional address.  I know that I do.


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  • Ok, fair enough. This is what I was going to do, guess I just needed some reassurance. Moving ahead with the Mr. and Mrs. John Doe. Thank you!
    - The stars, like dust, encircle me in living mists of light. And all of space I seem to see in one vast burst of sight. 
  • I know it's proper to do it like CMG mentioned and I did for my parents generation and older.  It felt suuuuper weird to me to address my friends that way.  So I didn't do the same for everyone.  Some I addressed informally, Jane Doe & John Doe, some John and Jane Doe, and some Mr. and Mrs. John Doe.  Whatever felt right based on the people I was addressing it to. 
    [Deleted User]MyNameIsNot
  • Maggie0829Maggie0829 Ravens & Bohs & Crabs & O's member
    Eighth Anniversary 10000 Comments 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    I feel like I am in the minority about just not caring about traditional wording.  So my first name is not listed, oh well.  I am sure the couple knows that I am my own person and not the property of my husband.  I am also sure that they know my name.  Having it addressed another way with my first name included is not going to make me feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside.  To me it is just an envelope, just a mode to get the invite to me and my H.  I give it a quick glance and then I rip it open and throw it away.

    CasadenaJennyColada
  • edited April 2015
    There were a few wedding guests who we know prefer "Mr. and Mrs. John Jacob Smith". We respected that addressed these people how we know they prefer to be addressed.

    On the flip side, we had guests who specifically DO NOT like the Mr. and Mrs. John Jacob Smith and think it's insulting (my parents, for one).


    Personal opinion time...CMGr, hang onto your pearls!

    I think a man's first name CAN be separated from his last name (i.e. Mr. and Mrs. John and Sally Smith). Quelle horreur!! Why can't it? But it's a-ok for his wife's name to be completely left off all together? It's a tradition rooted in patriarchy, property, and sexism.

    In this day and age, I don't think these antiquated traditions should apply. Women can (and should) be just as represented as men with their "titles" as more than just their husband's name with a Mrs. slapped in front of it. 

    And further, with the changing definition of marriage, how does one determine whose name is worthy of being printed and whose isn't? Whose name can't be separated from the last name if a couple decides to share a last name?
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    haleyk620[Deleted User]esstee33
  • It really does weird me out. I'm thinking of taking FI's name but I'm not sure I want to be addressed as Mrs. Hisfirstname Hislastname. It just feels very patriarchal. I want to do things the "proper" way but this is just ...I don't know. I do need to submit those addresses to our invitation lady so I need to make a decision soon :/ 
    - The stars, like dust, encircle me in living mists of light. And all of space I seem to see in one vast burst of sight. 
  • CMGragainCMGragain member
    10000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 25 Answers
    edited April 2015
    It is all about understanding the difference between names and titles.  Here in the USA, we only have a few titles:  Mr. , Mrs., Dr., Miss and now Ms.  In the U.K. they have so many more, it is easier to understand.

    H.R.H. the Prince of Wales = title
    Charles Philip Arthur George Mountbatten-Windsor = name

    Mrs. John Doe = title
    Jane Doe = name

    Formal mail (such as wedding invitations) usually have people's titles on them, not names.   Mail is addressed the same way, with titles, not names.

    Is it a horror to use peoples names instead of titles?  Not today, but it is still incorrect.  100 years ago, my grandmother would have been insulted if someone had written anything except her proper title on an envelope.  Of course, the letter within might start out, "Dear Jane" - her NAME.

    The modern form of address would be "Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe".  This is also addressed to TITLES, just different ones than the traditional "Mr. and Mrs. John Doe".  It is incorrect to address a letter to "John and Jane Doe"- NAMES.  People do this all the time, but it still isn't correct.

    I have a slightly more complicated situation, personally.  My legal name is quite different from my personal name.  It isn't a nickname.  My crazy mother insisted that my name was "Jane" instead of "Catherine".  I didn't find out the my name was Catherine until I was 8 years old.  I am very content to be addressed by my traditional title, rather than having to explain my name.  It took three years to straighten it out with social security and the IRS.  I have to remember which side of the family it is when I send mail.  I am Jane to one side, and Catherine to the other.
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  • @CMGragain (and anyone else who wants to chime in, of course) - Ok, so your examples of "titles" versus names are: 

    1) Royals who have actual titles like Duke, Queen, Prince and then associated locations (i.e. Wales, Windsor, etc.); and
    2) Women who change their last name to their husband's last name.

    #1 isn't really a good example because royalty has a different set of "rules" than the vast, vast majority of people. 

    And, in #2, why do just women (who change their last names) have to take their husband's whole name (with "Mrs" slapped in front) as their title? Why not men? Why isn't a man's title "Mr. Mary Smith"? 

    It's because the tradition comes from women being the property of their husbands. Of course they are not property in 2015, but that's exactly where this "title" comes from. You know that as well as I do. If someone prefers that tradition, fine. I'll address them that way - of course. Because etiquette should be what one prefers. But, in general and as a default, I think women deserve more than this antiquated tradition of being addressed as property. 

    And I'm interested in your take on my same sex question posed above. Since marriage is more than just "one man, one woman" now and we can't bank on the old tradition rooted in women being property of men, what's the formula for titles? Whose name is worthy of being "the chosen one" for titles and whose name isn't?
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    [Deleted User]esstee33
  • MairePoppyMairePoppy Connecticut mod
    Moderator Ninth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its

    I prefer to be addressed as 'Maire and James Poppy,' no titles at all. I'm not giving up my name. I use my family name as my middle name and added my husband's family name as my last name. I am not offended, though, to receive mail addressed to Mr. and Mrs. James Poppy. I don't expect everyone to know my personal preference.

    My 80 year old mother would be offended to be addressed any way other than Mr. and Mrs. Richard O. Rose. She signs her own name as Mrs. Richard O. Rose. It's strange to me, but it's probably safer to stick with Mr. and Mrs. for the older people.


                       
    CMGragain
  • CMGragainCMGragain member
    10000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 25 Answers
    edited April 2015
    There is no difference in same sex titles.

    Mr. John Smith-Jones and Mr. Thomas Smith-Jones
    Ms. Jane Smith-Jones and Ms. Lisa Smith-Jones
    Mrs. Jane Smith-Jones and Mrs. Lisa Smith-Jones
    Ms. Jane Smith and Ms. Lisa Jones  (You don't have to change or hyphenate your name just because you are married.  This applies to heterosexual couples, too.)

    I do not understand why people get so upset about forms of address when marriage itself is still full of old traditions that are very sexist.  My grandmother was quite indignant about some of that.

    As for titles, I'm sorry but Mr., Mrs., Ms., Dr. and Miss are REAL titles.  We are fortunate in the USA that we don't have to deal with the very complicated rules attached to knighthood and peerage titles.  I used the Prince of Wales because it is easy to understand.
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  • CMGragainCMGragain member
    10000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 25 Answers
    edited April 2015

    I prefer to be addressed as 'Maire and James Poppy,' no titles at all. I'm not giving up my name. I use my family name as my middle name and added my husband's family name as my last name. I am not offended, though, to receive mail addressed to Mr. and Mrs. James Poppy. I don't expect everyone to know my personal preference.

    My 80 year old mother would be offended to be addressed any way other than Mr. and Mrs. Richard O. Rose. She signs her own name as Mrs. Richard O. Rose. It's strange to me, but it's probably safer to stick with Mr. and Mrs. for the older people.


    I am guessing that it has been some time since Mom signed a legal document.  "Mrs. Richard O. Rose" wont cut it on a mortgage or a will.
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    [Deleted User]
  • JennyColadaJennyColada Awesometown, CA member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its Third Anniversary First Answer

    I'm pretty sure that I addressed my stuff as Mrs. Jane & Mr. John Doe.

    No fucks given, no regrets.

    I mean, if I were to have a larger wedding of more than just out parents, then I'd probably have looked into this more, but I didn't, so I didn't.

    mj8215
  • MairePoppyMairePoppy Connecticut mod
    Moderator Ninth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its
    @CMGragain, I remember mom signing personal checks as Mrs. Richard O. Rose. She was pissed when the teller requested she sign her own name. She thought the teller was accusing her of forging my father's name. LOL 

    But yes, wills, property titles, tax documents etc...she signs Mary M. Rose, as instructed by an attorney, financial adviser or physician, who she regards as authority figures. 


                       
    CMGragain
  • huskypuppy14huskypuppy14 Boston Suburbs member
    2500 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    I agree with CMGragain. I also  agree with Southernbelle. 

    CMG is saying that to properly address an invitation you should use titles. If you don't want to leave off the first name of the women, than instead of doing Mr. and Mrs. John Doe, you write Ms. (or Mrs.) Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe. That is perfectly acceptable. 

    Southernbelle is saying women should not just be referred to by their husband's name. I agree, which is why I didn't change my last name. (Unfortunately, this doesn't stop people from addressing us incorrectly).

    I also disagree that Mrs. should only be used with the husband's name.  Some people feel that it isn't proper to use Mrs. with the woman's first name. This is absolutely changing, at least in my circle all married women who take their husband's last names are addressed as Mrs Jane Doe on invitations only for them (baby or bridal showers, for example). The only person I knew who preferred to be Mrs. John Doe, was my great grandmother. And she died 5 years ago in her 90s.

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  • I do know many ladies who prefer Mrs. John Doe.  They feel that Mrs. Jane Doe makes it appear that they are divorced.  I don't agree with this, but it is a common perception.
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  • Maggie0829Maggie0829 Ravens & Bohs & Crabs & O's member
    Eighth Anniversary 10000 Comments 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    CMGragain said:

    I do know many ladies who prefer Mrs. John Doe.  They feel that Mrs. Jane Doe makes it appear that they are divorced.  I don't agree with this, but it is a common perception.

    I would like to know the ages of these ladies.  Because I am in my early 30's and I know no one who likes to be addressed as Mrs. John Doe.

    And though I am cool with having a wedding invite addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Maggie LastName I do not like being addressed as Mrs. H'sFirstName LastName.  It may be the "proper" way but I find it very rude when something is addressed solely for me (like a shower invite) to not use my first name.

  • ShesSoColdShesSoCold bend over and I'll show ya mod
    Moderator 5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its

    CMGragain said:

    I do know many ladies who prefer Mrs. John Doe.  They feel that Mrs. Jane Doe makes it appear that they are divorced.  I don't agree with this, but it is a common perception.

    I would like to know the ages of these ladies.  Because I am in my early 30's and I know no one who likes to be addressed as Mrs. John Doe.

    And though I am cool with having a wedding invite addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Maggie LastName I do not like being addressed as Mrs. H'sFirstName LastName.  It may be the "proper" way but I find it very rude when something is addressed solely for me (like a shower invite) to not use my first name.
    Sorry Maggie, but I have absolutely no problem with being Mrs. H Uglylastname. I'm 27. Like CMGr said, Mrs. H Uglylastname is my title. My name is Edna Uglylastname, but I am H's Mrs. I don't know why it doesn't bother me, but it doesn't. 
    Image result for someecard betting someone half your shit youll love them forever
    CasadenaCMGragain
  • @ShesSoCold,   to answer your question, they are in their 50's and 60's, as I am.  When we were in school, we were taught that it was RUDE to address anyone as Mrs. Jane Doe.  You addressed people by their proper titles.  Etiquette has now changed to allow it, but those of us who are old school are still uncomfortable with being addressed by our names, especially by strangers.  My late 90 year old grandmother really hated it when a nurse called her Jane instead of Mrs. Doe.
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  • VulgarGirlVulgarGirl Desert Oasis member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited April 2015
    CMGragain said:

    There is no difference in same sex titles.

    Mr. John Smith-Jones and Mr. Thomas Smith-Jones
    Ms. Jane Smith-Jones and Ms. Lisa Smith-Jones
    Mrs. Jane Smith-Jones and Mrs. Lisa Smith-Jones
    Ms. Jane Smith and Ms. Lisa Jones  (You don't have to change or hyphenate your name just because you are married.  This applies to heterosexual couples, too.)

    I find it interesting @CMGragain that you seem to think same sex couples just hyphenate (or don't change their last names at all). My Wife did not hyphenate her last name, she just changed it to mine. And I have several other same sex couple friends who also did not hyphenate. 

    Now, what if a man takes his woman's last name? Is he then Mr. Sally Smith? Cause I mean...my dad took my step-mom's last name. It does happen.
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    southernbelle0915redoryx
  • CMGragainCMGragain member
    10000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 25 Answers
    edited April 2015
    I did mention in my post that hyphenating your names was an option.  I do like the idea.  Since same sex marriage is new in the USA, etiquette is still evolving.
    The people I know who used the bride's family's surname just used the traditional form of address:  Mr. and Mrs. John Herlastname, or Ms. Jane Herlastname and Mr. John Herlastname.
    The Queen of Great Britain hyphenated her last name for her descendants who need one.  Mountbatten-Windsor.
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  • VulgarGirlVulgarGirl Desert Oasis member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Anniversary Name Dropper
    CMGragain said:

    I did mention in my post that hyphenating your names was an option.  I do like the idea.  Since same sex marriage is new in the USA, etiquette is still evolving.
    The people I know who used the bride's family's surname just used the traditional form of address:  Mr. and Mrs. John Herlastname, or Ms. Jane Herlastname and Mr. John Herlastname.
    The Queen of Great Britain hyphenated her last name for her descendants who need one.  Mountbatten-Windsor.

    Yes, you said it was an option for both same sex and opposite sex couples. However you only gave hyphenated options for same sex couples and thinking back, anytime I've asked for same sex couples examples you either include only hyphenated or both keep their own last names.

    Sophia Magicink and Fiona Magicink. How would one address that?

    And while same sex marriage being legal is somewhat new, same sex couples are not. Homos have been around forever. We've been invited to weddings, we've lived together, we've raised families together, and we've even changed our last names together to signify we were a couple when the law refused to recognize us. Really it's only the federal government recognizing our marriages that is new.

    I know, I know, you're old, or the chemo, or you just have never met gay people before so you never thought we might I don't know do really similar things to heterosexuals. 
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    [Deleted User]
  • CMGragainCMGragain member
    10000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 25 Answers
    edited April 2015
    MagicInk said:

    CMGragain said:

    I did mention in my post that hyphenating your names was an option.  I do like the idea.  Since same sex marriage is new in the USA, etiquette is still evolving.
    The people I know who used the bride's family's surname just used the traditional form of address:  Mr. and Mrs. John Herlastname, or Ms. Jane Herlastname and Mr. John Herlastname.
    The Queen of Great Britain hyphenated her last name for her descendants who need one.  Mountbatten-Windsor.

    Yes, you said it was an option for both same sex and opposite sex couples. However you only gave hyphenated options for same sex couples and thinking back, anytime I've asked for same sex couples examples you either include only hyphenated or both keep their own last names.

    Sophia Magicink and Fiona Magicink. How would one address that?

    And while same sex marriage being legal is somewhat new, same sex couples are not. Homos have been around forever. We've been invited to weddings, we've lived together, we've raised families together, and we've even changed our last names together to signify we were a couple when the law refused to recognize us. Really it's only the federal government recognizing our marriages that is new.

    I know, I know, you're old, or the chemo, or you just have never met gay people before so you never thought we might I don't know do really similar things to heterosexuals. 
    1.  Mrs Sophia Magicink and Mrs.Fiona Magicink, OR Ms. Sophia Magicink and Ms. Fiona Magicink, of course.

    2.  This is insulting.  I am a retired musician and theater person.  Ever heard of  Tschaikowsky?  Brahms?  Your assumption that I don't know any same sex couples, or don't have any friends that are homosexuals is wrong and very judgmental of you.  Even Amy Vanderbilt was pro-gay rights.
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  • CMGragainCMGragain member
    10000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 25 Answers
    edited April 2015
    I agree with you.  I never said the rules were fair.  Just as "Ms." has become acceptable as a woman's title, I am sure other etiquette rules will change.
    I only give advice about current practices.  I can't change the rules, but they do need to change, just as our laws are changing, thank goodness!
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  • Jen4948Jen4948 Houston member
    10000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    I think the one etiquette rule that remains in effect regarding names is that it is rude to deliberately address anyone by any name or title other than their stated preferences.

    So if Jane Doe, the wife of John Smith, goes by "Ms. Jane Doe" and not "Mrs. John Smith" then, regardless of tradition, it is not appropriate to address her as "Mrs. John Smith" if you know that she prefers to be addressed as "Ms. Jane Doe."
    CMGragainhuskypuppy14
  • Maybe my problem is that I think that most titles are bullshit.  I work with doctors.  They Earned their title; paid a lot of money for it and studied a shitton for it.  They should expect and demand that people will refer to them as Dr. Jon Smith.  They earned that title, dammit.  But I didn't Earn Ms. or Miss or Mrs.  And guys certainly didn't Earn Mr.  So who the hell cares?  As far as I'm concerned my title IS my name.  THAT's how people address me.
  • VulgarGirlVulgarGirl Desert Oasis member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited April 2015
    CMGragain said:

    2.  This is insulting.  I am a retired musician and theater person.  Ever heard of  Tschaikowsky?  Brahms?  Your assumption that I don't know any same sex couples, or don't have any friends that are homosexuals is wrong and very judgmental of you.  Even Amy Vanderbilt was pro-gay rights.
    ****BOXES SUCK ASS******



    Tschailkowsky died in 1893. Brahms in 1897. You knew these two men? Because that would make you at least 123 if you were born a year before Tschailkowsky died. I'm gonna doubt that.

    Assuming that everyone in music/theater is gay is really fucking offensive. It's just like saying all black people play basketball or all Asian people are great at math. And in fact out queer women are terribly underrepresented in theater. Your argument is you know gay people because you did theater? But then you list two dead guys as your examples. There are plenty of straight people who are in theater too. I can't even believe you would say something like this. Seriously, it is so fucking offensive to imply that everyone in theater/music is gay. Or that just because you were involved in theater/music you are tolerant of homosexual. I mean there are sure are a lot of black guys in the NBA but plenty of racists like basketball. 

    And what does Amy Vanderbilt have to do with the price of tea in China? You're the one who always uses your age as a defense. Or that your chemo addled brain can't figure out how to not say offensive things. I was heading off your typical argument that back in "your day" things were "different".
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    ashley8918[Deleted User]MyNameIsNot
  • ashley8918ashley8918 Chicago Suburbs member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Anniversary First Answer
    MagicInk said:

    CMGragain said:

    2.  This is insulting.  I am a retired musician and theater person.  Ever heard of  Tschaikowsky?  Brahms?  Your assumption that I don't know any same sex couples, or don't have any friends that are homosexuals is wrong and very judgmental of you.  Even Amy Vanderbilt was pro-gay rights.
    ****BOXES SUCK ASS******



    Tschailkowsky died in 1893. Brahms in 1897. You knew these two men? Because that would make you at least 123 if you were born a year before Tschailkowsky died. I'm gonna doubt that.

    Assuming that everyone in music/theater is gay is really fucking offensive. It's just like saying all black people play basketball or all Asian people are great at math. And in fact out queer women are terribly underrepresented in theater. Your argument is you know gay people because you did theater? But then you list two dead guys as your examples. There are plenty of straight people who are in theater too. I can't even believe you would say something like this. Seriously, it is so fucking offensive to imply that everyone in theater/music is gay. Or that just because you were involved in theater/music you are tolerant of homosexual. I mean there are sure are a lot of black guys in the NBA but plenty of racists like basketball. 

    And what does Amy Vanderbilt have to do with the price of tea in China? You're the one who always uses your age as a defense. Or that your chemo addled brain can't figure out how to not say offensive things. I was heading off your typical argument that back in "your day" things were "different".
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    VulgarGirl
  • MagicInk said:

    CMGragain said:

    I did mention in my post that hyphenating your names was an option.  I do like the idea.  Since same sex marriage is new in the USA, etiquette is still evolving.
    The people I know who used the bride's family's surname just used the traditional form of address:  Mr. and Mrs. John Herlastname, or Ms. Jane Herlastname and Mr. John Herlastname.
    The Queen of Great Britain hyphenated her last name for her descendants who need one.  Mountbatten-Windsor.

    Yes, you said it was an option for both same sex and opposite sex couples. However you only gave hyphenated options for same sex couples and thinking back, anytime I've asked for same sex couples examples you either include only hyphenated or both keep their own last names.

    Sophia Magicink and Fiona Magicink. How would one address that?

    And while same sex marriage being legal is somewhat new, same sex couples are not. Homos have been around forever. We've been invited to weddings, we've lived together, we've raised families together, and we've even changed our last names together to signify we were a couple when the law refused to recognize us. Really it's only the federal government recognizing our marriages that is new.

    I know, I know, you're old, or the chemo, or you just have never met gay people before so you never thought we might I don't know do really similar things to heterosexuals. 
    1.  Mrs Sophia Magicink and Mrs.Fiona Magicink, OR Ms. Sophia Magicink and Ms. Fiona Magicink, of course.

    2.  This is insulting.  I am a retired musician and theater person.  Ever heard of  Tschaikowsky?  Brahms?  Your assumption that I don't know any same sex couples, or don't have any friends that are homosexuals is wrong and very judgmental of you.  Even Amy Vanderbilt was pro-gay rights.
    Tchaikovsky. 

    If you're going to use an absurd argument like that, at least get his fucking name correct. 
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    VulgarGirl[Deleted User]ashley8918esstee33
  • redoryx said:

    MagicInk said:

    CMGragain said:

    I did mention in my post that hyphenating your names was an option.  I do like the idea.  Since same sex marriage is new in the USA, etiquette is still evolving.
    The people I know who used the bride's family's surname just used the traditional form of address:  Mr. and Mrs. John Herlastname, or Ms. Jane Herlastname and Mr. John Herlastname.
    The Queen of Great Britain hyphenated her last name for her descendants who need one.  Mountbatten-Windsor.

    Yes, you said it was an option for both same sex and opposite sex couples. However you only gave hyphenated options for same sex couples and thinking back, anytime I've asked for same sex couples examples you either include only hyphenated or both keep their own last names.

    Sophia Magicink and Fiona Magicink. How would one address that?

    And while same sex marriage being legal is somewhat new, same sex couples are not. Homos have been around forever. We've been invited to weddings, we've lived together, we've raised families together, and we've even changed our last names together to signify we were a couple when the law refused to recognize us. Really it's only the federal government recognizing our marriages that is new.

    I know, I know, you're old, or the chemo, or you just have never met gay people before so you never thought we might I don't know do really similar things to heterosexuals. 
    1.  Mrs Sophia Magicink and Mrs.Fiona Magicink, OR Ms. Sophia Magicink and Ms. Fiona Magicink, of course.

    2.  This is insulting.  I am a retired musician and theater person.  Ever heard of  Tschaikowsky?  Brahms?  Your assumption that I don't know any same sex couples, or don't have any friends that are homosexuals is wrong and very judgmental of you.  Even Amy Vanderbilt was pro-gay rights.
    Tchaikovsky. 

    If you're going to use an absurd argument like that, at least get his fucking name correct. 


    Tschaikowsky, Tchakovsky, Tschaikovsky, etc. spoke Russian and used the Cyrillic alphabet.  Our Roman alphabet translates his name phonetically, and there are several versions.  I have performed his music many times.
    I believe you meant to be patronizing?  I'm not sure why.  You are wrong.
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