Moms and Maids

Kid issue among wedding party

From the beginning, my fiance and I have made it clear that we were having an adult only wedding. All of our guests were totally fine with that and even happy to have a night away. Here is where I hit a little dilemma. One of my bridesmaids had a son in January, so he is only a few months old. I had told her from the beginning also, that it was child free. Over the past couple of weeks some of my bridesmaids were asking if I've talked with her to find out what she was planning to do with him while she was in the wedding, since they thought she had mentioned bringing him.  I did ask and she said, "He has to be there, he goes everywhere with me". It really doesn't matter to me at all but it is the principle of the matter and I don't want to come off as playing favorites when we've already said no kids. I understand that he doesn't need a seat or a plate, but I still feel that this will come off rude to some guests. At this point there's really nothing I can do, but I want to know if this has been an issue with any fellow Knotties, and if you were a parent and saw this at a wedding, how would you feel? 
slg00006
«1

Re: Kid issue among wedding party

  • I a huge supporter of adult only weddings, but I think this is a reasonable exception. I doubt that anyone will have an issue with a newborn being present if their own little one wasn't invited. Even if they do have an issue, they are in no position to offer their opinion.
    ILoveBeachMusicJediElizabethInLoveInQueens
  • Thanks for the honest responses! I figured it shouldn't bother guests, but wanted to hear some other opinions anyway :)
    charlotte989875JediElizabethOliveOilsMompinupbride6189
  • ILoveBeachMusicILoveBeachMusic Indiana member
    Sixth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    Totally agree with PPs. DD had an adults only wedding (except for ring bearer and flower girl). Close friends had a newborn that they brought along (after checking with SIL). The baby stayed in a front carrier during the service and reception. No one would've known she was there if they hadn't seen her. No big deal. A wedding party member had his toddler son there - it was more important for him and his wife to be there than to have no children.

    charlotte989875InLoveInQueens
  • I totally love no kid weddings but I would totally support a BM bringing her small infant.  If anyone has a problem they are pretty cold.
    Heffalump
  • I'm in a similar situation in that I'm all about having an adult-only wedding, but my MOH has an infant that I'm glad to make an exception for. I totally agree with PPs about how this looks to other guests.

    The thing to remember is that no one will know that you're "excluding" other children until the day of, and even then it will make sense, given the baby's age.

    image
    InLoveInQueens
  • When is your wedding? If it's soon, it sounds like she and baby are a package deal right now, so if you tell her she can't bring him, you may lose her as well.

    We didn't have a child-free wedding, but the general consensus around here is that nursing infants are an acceptable exception to that cutoff anyway.
    image
    OurWildKingdomthisismynickname2Knottie1452098987
  • SP29SP29 member
    Sixth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    Children are not all or none- as long as you aren't splitting up a family of children, perfectly fine to invite some kids and not others. Yes, circles are recommended, but even then, there is nothing inherently wrong with inviting only children you want, are close to, or who need to be there.

    Since we are talking about a VIP here, this is something you need to discuss with her face to face. If you want to stick hard and fast to no kids, that is your prerogative, but you risk that your BM cannot attend.

    Also, you shouldn't be writing "Adults only" anywhere anyway, so guests won't know that your intent was no children, they will only know their kids weren't invited (which they are not entitled to be).
    ernursejOliveOilsMom
  • AddieCake said:
    I don't understand people who are "happy to have a night away" when an invitation is adults only. Do these people specifically need their kids not to be invited to know they don't have to bring them even if they ARE invited? Or is this just something brides claim their guests are expressing? 

    I realize this this has nothing to do with the question. I'm just always wondering this when brides say this about their guests.

    I think it can run both ways. My cousin feels like she needs to bring her kid with her everywhere (?FOMO, guilt?) and told me that she was incredibly happy that she was able to tell her kid that this (her friend's wedding) wasn't something he was invited to (don't agree with that tactic, but interesting perspective). My friend told me that she was happy to have a night away from her kid (for our wedding), but they were never intending on bringing her kid.
  • AddieCakeAddieCake Beyond the Wall member
    10000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 25 Answers
    ernursej said:
    AddieCake said:
    I don't understand people who are "happy to have a night away" when an invitation is adults only. Do these people specifically need their kids not to be invited to know they don't have to bring them even if they ARE invited? Or is this just something brides claim their guests are expressing? 

    I realize this this has nothing to do with the question. I'm just always wondering this when brides say this about their guests.

    I think it can run both ways. My cousin feels like she needs to bring her kid with her everywhere (?FOMO, guilt?) and told me that she was incredibly happy that she was able to tell her kid that this (her friend's wedding) wasn't something he was invited to (don't agree with that tactic, but interesting perspective). My friend told me that she was happy to have a night away from her kid (for our wedding), but they were never intending on bringing her kid.
    That's my point. Have a night away from your kid(s) and be happy about it any time you don't want them to come. You don't have to rely on an invitation NOT including them for you to opt not to include them. 
    What did you think would happen if you walked up to a group of internet strangers and told them to get shoehorned by their lady doc?~StageManager14
    image
    ernursejHeffalumpkimmiinthemitten[Deleted User]
  • AddieCake said:
    ernursej said:
    AddieCake said:
    I don't understand people who are "happy to have a night away" when an invitation is adults only. Do these people specifically need their kids not to be invited to know they don't have to bring them even if they ARE invited? Or is this just something brides claim their guests are expressing? 

    I realize this this has nothing to do with the question. I'm just always wondering this when brides say this about their guests.

    I think it can run both ways. My cousin feels like she needs to bring her kid with her everywhere (?FOMO, guilt?) and told me that she was incredibly happy that she was able to tell her kid that this (her friend's wedding) wasn't something he was invited to (don't agree with that tactic, but interesting perspective). My friend told me that she was happy to have a night away from her kid (for our wedding), but they were never intending on bringing her kid.
    That's my point. Have a night away from your kid(s) and be happy about it any time you don't want them to come. You don't have to rely on an invitation NOT including them for you to opt not to include them. 
    Truth.  DH and I opted not to bring DD to a few family weddings because we just knew that it wasn't going to be the greatest idea to chase her after her bedtime.   


    AddieCakeMairePoppyei34Knottie1452098987
  • ei34ei34 member
    Ninth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    At this point there's really nothing I can do, but I want to know if this has been an issue with any fellow Knotties, and if you were a parent and saw this at a wedding, how would you feel? 
    As a parent, I'd have absolutely no problem with a newborn/infant at a wedding that my own children weren't invited too.  I remember those early months- you really can't leave your baby for more than a few hours.

    OurWildKingdomKnottie1452098987
  • LondonLisaLondonLisa London, UK member
    Eighth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    ernursej said:
    AddieCake said:
    I don't understand people who are "happy to have a night away" when an invitation is adults only. Do these people specifically need their kids not to be invited to know they don't have to bring them even if they ARE invited? Or is this just something brides claim their guests are expressing? 

    I realize this this has nothing to do with the question. I'm just always wondering this when brides say this about their guests.

    I think it can run both ways. My cousin feels like she needs to bring her kid with her everywhere (?FOMO, guilt?) and told me that she was incredibly happy that she was able to tell her kid that this (her friend's wedding) wasn't something he was invited to (don't agree with that tactic, but interesting perspective). My friend told me that she was happy to have a night away from her kid (for our wedding), but they were never intending on bringing her kid.
    This is her as a parent issue, rather than a party issue. If you as an adult can't tell a child that they cannot be invited everywhere, you have bigger parenting problems than a party. 

    Seriously. Boundaries are healthy!
    ernursejSP29Knottie1452098987
  • Oh totally. I don't have kids so I don't really get the concept of not being able to leave your kids with a sitter. I like to think that you were you first, a partner second and a parent third. You need some time for each of your roles in order to be healthy and happy.
    SP29Knottie1452098987
  • MesmrEweMesmrEwe member
    Knottie Warrior 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    edited April 2016
    AddieCake said:
    I don't understand people who are "happy to have a night away" when an invitation is adults only. Do these people specifically need their kids not to be invited to know they don't have to bring them even if they ARE invited? Or is this just something brides claim their guests are expressing? 

    I realize this this has nothing to do with the question. I'm just always wondering this when brides say this about their guests.ha

    It's the "I have no kids so am trying to justify my decision" response...  Really - I don't need an "adult-only" wedding to justify going out alone somewhere with DH when if reading the situation it's not a "bring the kids along" event.  H & I have had many events that one or the other of us goes while the other stays home and watches the kids..  But also, it comes across as "I don't want kids but am trying to justify in my own mind my making you spend an extra $150-200 on a babysitter (it's usually about 12hours+ from leaving the house to getting back home and sitters like to be paid properly) so you can attend my PPD even though the reality is it's not a night off because it's to attend my event with one of three meal choices that you may or may not even like"... 

    ETA: Babysitters are hard to find - When it comes to weddings, typically the normal fallback of Grandma or Auntie/Uncle/Niece/Cousin are also attending the same event.  Also, it's expensive, how many hours does one need to work (after taxes) to pay for the sitter, buying a nice gift from the registry is far cheaper!

    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
    YogaSandypoodledoodleooo
  • Also OP - no one is going to bat an eye if your BM brings their kid even if it's the only kid at the event, nor if you only invited the kids of your siblings, they're VIP's to the day.
    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • Jen4948Jen4948 Houston member
    Ninth Anniversary 10000 Comments 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    edited April 2016
    MesmrEwe said:
    AddieCake said:
    I don't understand people who are "happy to have a night away" when an invitation is adults only. Do these people specifically need their kids not to be invited to know they don't have to bring them even if they ARE invited? Or is this just something brides claim their guests are expressing? 

    I realize this this has nothing to do with the question. I'm just always wondering this when brides say this about their guests.ha

    It's the "I have no kids so am trying to justify my decision" response...  Really - I don't need an "adult-only" wedding to justify going out alone somewhere with DH when if reading the situation it's not a "bring the kids along" event.  H & I have had many events that one or the other of us goes while the other stays home and watches the kids..  But also, it comes across as "I don't want kids but am trying to justify in my own mind my making you spend an extra $150-200 on a babysitter (it's usually about 12hours+ from leaving the house to getting back home and sitters like to be paid properly) so you can attend my PPD even though the reality is it's not a night off because it's to attend my event with one of three meal choices that you may or may not even like"... 

    ETA: Babysitters are hard to find - When it comes to weddings, typically the normal fallback of Grandma or Auntie/Uncle/Niece/Cousin are also attending the same event.  Also, it's expensive, how many hours does one need to work (after taxes) to pay for the sitter, buying a nice gift from the registry is far cheaper!

    I take a little bit of an issue with the two bolded statements; I don't have kids, I did have an adult only wedding, but felt no need to justify the choice that I made.

    I have no idea what each of my friends and family, H's friends and family's childcare situations are. I don't know who is cool with hiring a babysitter, who isn't, who doesn't mind a recommendation from someone local, who wants to bring their nanny, or how much they pay. We tell brides all the time that an adult-only wedding is etiquette approved and to be prepared for declines for people who can't make that work. But the second bolded makes it sound like people choosing adult-only weddings are child-free, selfish jerks, who know how hard it is for parents, but just don't care, and I just don't think that's always the case.

    Now, if someone had come to me before the wedding and said they really couldn't make it work with childcare, of course I would tell them to just bring the kids, because I'd rather have my friends and family there, but my first preference would have been (and was) an adult-only wedding.
    I agree.  The honest truth is that everyone who is or expects to become a parent needs to accept that the world will not be 100% accepting of you and your kids as a package 100% of the time and you need to find people around you who can be babysitters from time to time - however hard that might be for you. It's not "selfish" or "rude" of anyone to invite you but not your kids to their adults-only wedding or any other occasion. While you're entitled to decline those invitations, and people who issue those invitations to you have to accept your declines, you're not entitled to expect everyone to invite your kids along with you.

    And if you insist that you can't attend anything without your kids, what will probably happen is that you'll get a lot fewer invitations in the future - for you or your kids.
    SP29ernursejKnottie1452098987
  • LondonLisaLondonLisa London, UK member
    Eighth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    ernursej said:
    Oh totally. I don't have kids so I don't really get the concept of not being able to leave your kids with a sitter. I like to think that you were you first, a partner second and a parent third. You need some time for each of your roles in order to be healthy and happy.
    I do have a kid, and I agree that this is how you should be.

    However - we just got invited to a friends' wedding in June, and DD (who will be 9m at the time) doesn't appear to be invited. I understand that's their prerogative, but it does make it a huge hassle for us and does make it seem a little bit like they don't really care if we can attend, or at the very least haven't thought through the implications. They picked what is essentially a destination for everyone. We have a friend who lives there and would normally be happy to babysit (which the couple wouldn't know), but she'll be OOT that weekend. In general, we'd have no problem with leaving her with a sitter, and if friend were in town probably would have planned not to bring her even if she were invited. But since the wedding on the whole is a big commitment for people, it would have been nice to have the option of bringing her or not.

    So yes, we would be "happy to have a night away" in one sense, but it's probably not worth the requirement of driving a couple hours out of our way, planning out a breastmilk supply, pumping all weekend, etc., to leave her with a set of grandparents.

    To the OP - even with all of that - if we decide to go, I would certainly understand if a tiny nursing infant were present. No hard feelings whatsoever over that.

    edit- clarity
    I get that it's a hassle, but it's important to remember it's not about you. They didn't plan it this way "because they don't really want you there" as much as you not attending is to stick it to them. And I hate to say it: whilst I'm sure your daughter is lovely, some people just don't like being around kids all the time. I have friends who love children but didn't want them at your wedding. If they want an adults only wedding and the choice is you w/ baby or no one attending, it's fair to say "we'll miss you". Hassle for you? Sure. But that's being a parent and realising your kids aren't welcome everywhere. 

    Theyre allowed to pick whatever destination they want. You're allowed to decline. That's the social contract. No one is allowed to be upset at this situstion.  No one is entitled to bring their kids. 
    Jen4948SP29Knottie1452098987
  • ernursej said:
    Oh totally. I don't have kids so I don't really get the concept of not being able to leave your kids with a sitter. I like to think that you were you first, a partner second and a parent third. You need some time for each of your roles in order to be healthy and happy.
    I do have a kid, and I agree that this is how you should be.

    However - we just got invited to a friends' wedding in June, and DD (who will be 9m at the time) doesn't appear to be invited. I understand that's their prerogative, but it does make it a huge hassle for us and does make it seem a little bit like they don't really care if we can attend, or at the very least haven't thought through the implications. They picked what is essentially a destination for everyone. We have a friend who lives there and would normally be happy to babysit (which the couple wouldn't know), but she'll be OOT that weekend. In general, we'd have no problem with leaving her with a sitter, and if friend were in town probably would have planned not to bring her even if she were invited. But since the wedding on the whole is a big commitment for people, it would have been nice to have the option of bringing her or not.

    So yes, we would be "happy to have a night away" in one sense, but it's probably not worth the requirement of driving a couple hours out of our way, planning out a breastmilk supply, pumping all weekend, etc., to leave her with a set of grandparents.

    To the OP - even with all of that - if we decide to go, I would certainly understand if a tiny nursing infant were present. No hard feelings whatsoever over that.

    edit- clarity
    I get that it's a hassle, but it's important to remember it's not about you. They didn't plan it this way "because they don't really want you there" as much as you not attending is to stick it to them. And I hate to say it: whilst I'm sure your daughter is lovely, some people just don't like being around kids all the time. I have friends who love children but didn't want them at your wedding. If they want an adults only wedding and the choice is you w/ baby or no one attending, it's fair to say "we'll miss you". Hassle for you? Sure. But that's being a parent and realising your kids aren't welcome everywhere. 

    Theyre allowed to pick whatever destination they want. You're allowed to decline. That's the social contract. No one is allowed to be upset at this situstion.  No one is entitled to bring their kids. 
    I think parents are allowed to be annoyed by this situation, but just shouldn't express the annoyance to the hosts. You just then sit down, as @flantastic and her H seem to be doing, and weigh your options and decide whether it's worth it to make the trip for this wedding.
    tigerlily6ThisShamanluvsaMage
  • LondonLisaLondonLisa London, UK member
    Eighth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    geebee908 said:
    ernursej said:
    Oh totally. I don't have kids so I don't really get the concept of not being able to leave your kids with a sitter. I like to think that you were you first, a partner second and a parent third. You need some time for each of your roles in order to be healthy and happy.
    I do have a kid, and I agree that this is how you should be.

    However - we just got invited to a friends' wedding in June, and DD (who will be 9m at the time) doesn't appear to be invited. I understand that's their prerogative, but it does make it a huge hassle for us and does make it seem a little bit like they don't really care if we can attend, or at the very least haven't thought through the implications. They picked what is essentially a destination for everyone. We have a friend who lives there and would normally be happy to babysit (which the couple wouldn't know), but she'll be OOT that weekend. In general, we'd have no problem with leaving her with a sitter, and if friend were in town probably would have planned not to bring her even if she were invited. But since the wedding on the whole is a big commitment for people, it would have been nice to have the option of bringing her or not.

    So yes, we would be "happy to have a night away" in one sense, but it's probably not worth the requirement of driving a couple hours out of our way, planning out a breastmilk supply, pumping all weekend, etc., to leave her with a set of grandparents.

    To the OP - even with all of that - if we decide to go, I would certainly understand if a tiny nursing infant were present. No hard feelings whatsoever over that.

    edit- clarity
    I get that it's a hassle, but it's important to remember it's not about you. They didn't plan it this way "because they don't really want you there" as much as you not attending is to stick it to them. And I hate to say it: whilst I'm sure your daughter is lovely, some people just don't like being around kids all the time. I have friends who love children but didn't want them at your wedding. If they want an adults only wedding and the choice is you w/ baby or no one attending, it's fair to say "we'll miss you". Hassle for you? Sure. But that's being a parent and realising your kids aren't welcome everywhere. 

    Theyre allowed to pick whatever destination they want. You're allowed to decline. That's the social contract. No one is allowed to be upset at this situstion.  No one is entitled to bring their kids. 
    I think parents are allowed to be annoyed by this situation, but just shouldn't express the annoyance to the hosts. You just then sit down, as @flantastic and her H seem to be doing, and weigh your options and decide whether it's worth it to make the trip for this wedding.
    They're definitely allowed to think it's inconvenient and decline but they're certainly not allowed to be annoyed. That's like being annoyed that your teetotal friend wasn't invited so you could have a few drinks and not pay for a cab. Being annoyed at hosts for not inviting your child is spoilt and entitled. Would you say the host has a right to be annoyed that she doesn't want to hire a sitter? No, she recognises actions have consequences and she should own it.  Would it have been easier for you if that situation worked in your favour? Sure. But we can't always get what we want. Hoping things go in our favour is not the same as annoyed when it doesn't.

    Having children means that if you want to go to an adults only event, you have to be an adult and either pay a babysitter or stay home. It doesn't give you carte blanche to be annoyed at the hosts when baby isn't allowed.

    SP29Knottie1452098987
  • Annoyance is a valid emotion. I can feel it and then get over it like most adults do. It doesn't make anyone petty or entitled. It's just one of those reactions to the inconveniences of life.
    OurWildKingdomJediElizabethOliveOilsMomThisShamanluvsaMage
  • flantasticflantastic The Midwest member
    Eighth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    edited April 2016
    ernursej said:
    Oh totally. I don't have kids so I don't really get the concept of not being able to leave your kids with a sitter. I like to think that you were you first, a partner second and a parent third. You need some time for each of your roles in order to be healthy and happy.
    I do have a kid, and I agree that this is how you should be.

    However - we just got invited to a friends' wedding in June, and DD (who will be 9m at the time) doesn't appear to be invited. I understand that's their prerogative, but it does make it a huge hassle for us and does make it seem a little bit like they don't really care if we can attend, or at the very least haven't thought through the implications. They picked what is essentially a destination for everyone. We have a friend who lives there and would normally be happy to babysit (which the couple wouldn't know), but she'll be OOT that weekend. In general, we'd have no problem with leaving her with a sitter, and if friend were in town probably would have planned not to bring her even if she were invited. But since the wedding on the whole is a big commitment for people, it would have been nice to have the option of bringing her or not.

    So yes, we would be "happy to have a night away" in one sense, but it's probably not worth the requirement of driving a couple hours out of our way, planning out a breastmilk supply, pumping all weekend, etc., to leave her with a set of grandparents.

    To the OP - even with all of that - if we decide to go, I would certainly understand if a tiny nursing infant were present. No hard feelings whatsoever over that.

    edit- clarity
    I get that it's a hassle, but it's important to remember it's not about you. They didn't plan it this way "because they don't really want you there" as much as you not attending is to stick it to them. And I hate to say it: whilst I'm sure your daughter is lovely, some people just don't like being around kids all the time. I have friends who love children but didn't want them at your wedding. If they want an adults only wedding and the choice is you w/ baby or no one attending, it's fair to say "we'll miss you". Hassle for you? Sure. But that's being a parent and realising your kids aren't welcome everywhere. 

    Theyre allowed to pick whatever destination they want. You're allowed to decline. That's the social contract. No one is allowed to be upset at this situstion.  No one is entitled to bring their kids. 
    I am in no way upset with them or think they're doing something wrong. I thought that was pretty clear. However, it is a huge hassle for us, or we have to decline, which I don't think they realize. I am allowed to be annoyed at that. The statement, "it would have been nice to have the option" is true, apart from whether or not the couple had to offer that option. H and I will make our decision.
    OurWildKingdomThisShamanluvsaMage
  • Jen4948Jen4948 Houston member
    Ninth Anniversary 10000 Comments 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    ernursej said:
    Oh totally. I don't have kids so I don't really get the concept of not being able to leave your kids with a sitter. I like to think that you were you first, a partner second and a parent third. You need some time for each of your roles in order to be healthy and happy.
    I do have a kid, and I agree that this is how you should be.

    However - we just got invited to a friends' wedding in June, and DD (who will be 9m at the time) doesn't appear to be invited. I understand that's their prerogative, but it does make it a huge hassle for us and does make it seem a little bit like they don't really care if we can attend, or at the very least haven't thought through the implications. They picked what is essentially a destination for everyone. We have a friend who lives there and would normally be happy to babysit (which the couple wouldn't know), but she'll be OOT that weekend. In general, we'd have no problem with leaving her with a sitter, and if friend were in town probably would have planned not to bring her even if she were invited. But since the wedding on the whole is a big commitment for people, it would have been nice to have the option of bringing her or not.

    So yes, we would be "happy to have a night away" in one sense, but it's probably not worth the requirement of driving a couple hours out of our way, planning out a breastmilk supply, pumping all weekend, etc., to leave her with a set of grandparents.

    To the OP - even with all of that - if we decide to go, I would certainly understand if a tiny nursing infant were present. No hard feelings whatsoever over that.

    edit- clarity
    I get that it's a hassle, but it's important to remember it's not about you. They didn't plan it this way "because they don't really want you there" as much as you not attending is to stick it to them. And I hate to say it: whilst I'm sure your daughter is lovely, some people just don't like being around kids all the time. I have friends who love children but didn't want them at your wedding. If they want an adults only wedding and the choice is you w/ baby or no one attending, it's fair to say "we'll miss you". Hassle for you? Sure. But that's being a parent and realising your kids aren't welcome everywhere. 

    Theyre allowed to pick whatever destination they want. You're allowed to decline. That's the social contract. No one is allowed to be upset at this situstion.  No one is entitled to bring their kids. 
    I am in no way upset with them or think they're doing something wrong. I thought that was pretty clear. However, it is a huge hassle for us, or we have to decline, which I don't think they realize. I am allowed to be annoyed at that. The statement, "it would have been nice to have the option" is true, apart from whether or not the couple had to offer that option. H and I will make our decision.
    Maybe they do realize it, but wanted to give you and your H the right to determine for yourselves if you could go and want to go.  Don't assume that they didn't realize it just because they chose to invite you anyway.  Wouldn't it have been insulting if they didn't even invite you because they assumed it would be "too much of a hassle" for you and your H to attend without your kids? 

    While it may be a "hassle" for you to attend a wedding without your kids, that doesn't necessarily hold true for everyone else on their guest list. Each guest needs to make that decision independently of whether it's a "hassle" for anyone to attend without their kids.
    OurWildKingdomSP29Knottie1452098987
This discussion has been closed.
Choose Another Board
Search Boards