Groom's Family & the Dress

lottie64

Good morning!

New to The Knot here! I just have a quick question. I went shopping this weekend for my dress (ended up finding one too!!!), and my mom came along. I live out of state from my parents and FIL, and really everyone being invited to the wedding. My mom started an album as I was trying on dresses, so they could be shared with my sister (also my MOH), grandmother, and dad. I wanted to add my FMIL and FSIL, who is a BM, but my mom said the groom's family isn't supposed to see the dress before the wedding. I dropped it because I didn't want a fight and I was exhausted from shopping, but I did want to share it with them.

If I had gone shopping back home, I would have invited my FMIL to go shopping with me. Both she and my FSIL have expressed interest and wanted to be involved in dress shopping. Neither know I went shopping or have found a dress, but it's bound to get out soon, since I told my fiance we'll be having a black tie wedding (I ended up getting a cathedral length train and my parents don't want me to shorten it).

So, is my mom correct, is it tradition for the groom's family not to see the gown before the wedding? I'm about 95% sure I'll be showing my bridesmaids the gown, but haven't decided yet - but I don't want to leave my FSIL out...

charlotte989875

Knottie1463424241 said:

Good morning!

New to The Knot here! I just have a quick question. I went shopping this weekend for my dress (ended up finding one too!!!), and my mom came along. I live out of state from my parents and FIL, and really everyone being invited to the wedding. My mom started an album as I was trying on dresses, so they could be shared with my sister (also my MOH), grandmother, and dad. I wanted to add my FMIL and FSIL, who is a BM, but my mom said the groom's family isn't supposed to see the dress before the wedding. I dropped it because I didn't want a fight and I was exhausted from shopping, but I did want to share it with them.

If I had gone shopping back home, I would have invited my FMIL to go shopping with me. Both she and my FSIL have expressed interest and wanted to be involved in dress shopping. Neither know I went shopping or have found a dress, but it's bound to get out soon, since I told my fiance we'll be having a black tie wedding (I ended up getting a cathedral length train and my parents don't want me to shorten it).

So, is my mom correct, is it tradition for the groom's family not to see the gown before the wedding? I'm about 95% sure I'll be showing my bridesmaids the gown, but haven't decided yet - but I don't want to leave my FSIL out...

No, there is no tradition or rules to follow about sharing what your dress looks like with anyone. If you would like them to see it, go ahead and show them! 

Comgrats on finding your dress! 

tigerlily6

I have never heard of this tradition. I didn't show my dress to my fiance during our engagement (although that is just a simple tradition I wanted to follow, it is not a rule and you are 100% fine to show your fiance if you want!), but I did show photos to his mom and my future sister-in-law (who was a BM). If you would like to share what your dress looks like with them, go for it. 

ILoveBeachMusic

Agree with PPs. The tradition is that the groom doesn't see the dress until the wedding, but with first looks that isn't even being done anymore. I'd show them the pictures if that is what you want to do. FTR, DD showed her MIL the dress she decided to buy. MIL went dress shopping with us for a day but not the day DD found the dress.

[Deleted User]

Show the dress to whomever you want. I showed FMIL and FSIL. 

Also, a cathedral length veil does not mean you HAVE to have a black tie wedding. Have one if you and your FI want and it fits with the rest of your plans, but it should be based on what you want, not on what veil you buy.  

lottie64

Great, thank you! I'd never heard of the tradition and neither had my sister. Initially my mom was saying she should be the only person to see the dress before the wedding, but then she caved when I said I needed my sister's input.

I have no plans to show my fiance my dress, and I don't think he wants to see it either! Especially now that the dress is much more formal than we were initially expecting, I want the bridesmaids and FMIL to see it, so they'll understand why we're pushing for black tie!

AddieCake

You can share your dress with anyone you want to.

DrillSergeantCat

My FMIL was dress shopping with me. I haven't heard that tradition before. I think your mom is a bit confused maybe.

lottie64

@Ironring I should have been more specific! The train on the dress is cathedral length, and the veil is about the same, just a little longer.

I'm fine with it not being black tie, but my parents feel that's best for the dress I'm wearing. As soon as I was saying I wanted the dress, and my parents were okay with it, they were saying it would be a black tie wedding.

I've already been told I don't really have a say since my parents are footing a majority of the bill...

[Deleted User]

A cathedral length train also does not necessarily mean it needs to be black tie. If you want to, that's great. And yes, generally, if they are paying then they get a large say in how things go. 

(If your crowd is the type of people who often go to black tie and that's what you guys want, then great! I'm just expressing my hesitation because my FI and I have never been to an event that was black tie and he'd have to go out of his way to find appropriate attire. I would be annoyed if that was the stated dress code JUST because of a train or veil length.) 

lottie64

Thank you @Ironring! That's a really good point about the black tie. I think most of my parent's friends probably have tuxes, and I think even some of my fiance's friends will have the appropriate attire. I have no idea about my FILs laws though, and that's definitely a discussion I want to have with them.

I think I could probably get my parents to agree to black tie optional, but I don't think I'll be able to get them to drop it altogether. But that's a different problem needing its own discussion, with quite a bit of background! And I know my parents have a very large say in the planning, but I was told flat out (by my mom) I wouldn't have input. My dad looked rather stunned.

charlotte989875

Knottie1463424241 said:

Thank you @Ironring! That's a really good point about the black tie. I think most of my parent's friends probably have tuxes, and I think even some of my fiance's friends will have the appropriate attire. I have no idea about my FILs laws though, and that's definitely a discussion I want to have with them.

I think I could probably get my parents to agree to black tie optional, but I don't think I'll be able to get them to drop it altogether. But that's a different problem needing its own discussion, with quite a bit of background! And I know my parents have a very large say in the planning, but I was told flat out (by my mom) I wouldn't have input. My dad looked rather stunned.

Black tie optional, while advocated by many sites is really confusing for your guests. Either your event is black tie or it's not (it may be formal, white tie, casual, etc.). It's great to have a black tie event if you want to (wherein your groom and his attendants wear tuxedos as well as your guests), but you can also have a formal event without requiring/requesting black tie from your guests. Mean wearing tuxedos (and thus 'black tie') is always optional to formal events that's why putting that on your invitations is unnecessary. 

Also 'black tie' isn't just about the attire, but about the entire evening. A black tie event will start after 6pm, will include white glove service, top shelf open bar, valet parking, a band, and the venue, invitations, decor will match the formality of the attire. So if you're having a black tie event then inform your guests of that, but if you're not truly having a black tie wedding please don't request this type of dress from your guests. 

[Deleted User]

Knottie1463424241 said:

Thank you @Ironring! That's a really good point about the black tie. I think most of my parent's friends probably have tuxes, and I think even some of my fiance's friends will have the appropriate attire. I have no idea about my FILs laws though, and that's definitely a discussion I want to have with them.

I think I could probably get my parents to agree to black tie optional, but I don't think I'll be able to get them to drop it altogether. But that's a different problem needing its own discussion, with quite a bit of background! And I know my parents have a very large say in the planning, but I was told flat out (by my mom) I wouldn't have input. My dad looked rather stunned.

If you want to have a black tie for other reasons, then great!

To the bolded, this sounds like a potential disaster and a lot of angst. I highly recommend you and your FI sit down and decide what the two of you want for your wedding. Then, have a very clear conversation with your parents about what they want, and what level of involvement and decision making each of you will do. I would make very sure that you and your FI are comfortable with what your mom visions and/or letting her make the decisions and do the planning. If you aren't, respectfully decline your parents money and plan the wedding that you and your FI can afford. 

I, personally, would absolutely not be ok being told that I wouldn't be able to have any say in my own wedding. 

Jen4948

Knottie1463424241 said:

Thank you @Ironring! That's a really good point about the black tie. I think most of my parent's friends probably have tuxes, and I think even some of my fiance's friends will have the appropriate attire. I have no idea about my FILs laws though, and that's definitely a discussion I want to have with them.

I think I could probably get my parents to agree to black tie optional, but I don't think I'll be able to get them to drop it altogether. But that's a different problem needing its own discussion, with quite a bit of background! And I know my parents have a very large say in the planning, but I was told flat out (by my mom) I wouldn't have input. My dad looked rather stunned.

I would give your mom and dad back any money they've given you or paid out already for your wedding, cancel any existing plans, and plan your wedding with your FI on the funds you will have available to you (without any contributions from anyone else).

Tell your mom, "Mom, we are cancelling all existing plans and returning your funds to you and Dad, and planning and paying for our own wedding. We hope you will still be willing to attend, and if not, we'll miss you, but it is totally unacceptable to FI and me to be locked out of input into plans for our own wedding."

lottie64

Thank you @charlotte989875. I most certainly did not know all that, and I haven't been to a black tie even myself. I think it might be easier to have the GM wear tuxes, and probably my dad. I don't particularly care what the guests will be wearing. It sounds like an open bar is already out of the running, and we were definitely not planning on a band, so black tie should definitely not be required. Formal event it is!

We have a tentative venue that would work great for black tie, but now my parents are trying to find something cheaper, less extravagant. If we're going to go less on the venue, I most certainly would not require my guests to wear black tie!!

lottie64

@Jen4948 @Ironring

I have a big problem with what she said. At the time, I didn't want to fight it, and I think some compromise is definitely possible. My sister essentially needs to be our moderator because we can't get anything accomplished and everyone is disagreeing on everything. It's just difficult because everyone is in a different time zone.

My fiance and I wanted to get eloped, and then plan a celebration a few years down the line when we had enough money and just have something low key. I made the mistake of telling my parents our plan (against the better judgement of my fiance), and now we're stuck in our current situation.

At this point, the only money my parents have spent is the deposit on the gown/veil.

southernbelle0915

Even if it were a tradition (not one I've ever heard of), you don't have to follow it if you don't want to.

MobKaz

@Knottie1463424241, I have been both a MOB and MOG.

I have some serious concern for you, your FI, and this wedding.  I specifically did not say "your" wedding because it sounds as if this will be your mother's wedding.  Please reconsider taking this money.

Many on these boards will cite the mantra, "He/she who pays will have the say".  Money almost always has strings attached.  However, even with strings, there are generally a few things left sacred and completely up to the bride and groom.  Regardless of contribution, wedding items typically "off limits" include the ceremony, selection of wedding party members, attire of wedding party, and attire of bride and groom.  The fact that your mother has already DICTATED anything related to your wedding attire is a HUGE red flag.  We have seen time and time again how easily and quickly wedding planning can turn family into completely crazy kinfolk.  Has your mom always been this controlling?

Do you want her telling you how to wear your hair?  Do you want her telling your FI what he should wear?  I really encourage you to rethink this entire situation. In the end, it will be you and your FI doing all the bickering.  No amount of money is worth the stress and anger that can and does come with a controlling, demanding, and manipulating fund source.  The wedding should be a reflection of the bridal couple.

As far as your FMIL and your dress......if possible, could you invite her to see the dress when it comes in to the store?  If that does not work, perhaps you could arrange to FaceTime the appointment, so that she could see it during a fitting.

redwoodoriginal

lottie64 said:

Thank you @charlotte989875. I most certainly did not know all that, and I haven't been to a black tie even myself. I think it might be easier to have the GM wear tuxes, and probably my dad. I don't particularly care what the guests will be wearing. It sounds like an open bar is already out of the running, and we were definitely not planning on a band, so black tie should definitely not be required. Formal event it is!

We have a tentative venue that would work great for black tie, but now my parents are trying to find something cheaper, less extravagant. If we're going to go less on the venue, I most certainly would not require my guests to wear black tie!!

black tie isn't just a dress code- there are a whole slew of rules that accompany a black tie affair and an open bar is certainly one of them. Just bc a venue is upscale and elegant does not mean it requires black tie. You don't seem to have a clear understanding of what black tie actually means. 

OliveOilsMom

MobKaz said:

@Knottie1463424241, I have been both a MOB and MOG.

I have some serious concern for you, your FI, and this wedding.  I specifically did not say "your" wedding because it sounds as if this will be your mother's wedding.  Please reconsider taking this money.

Many on these boards will cite the mantra, "He/she who pays will have the say".  Money almost always has strings attached.  However, even with strings, there are generally a few things left sacred and completely up to the bride and groom.  Regardless of contribution, wedding items typically "off limits" include the ceremony, selection of wedding party members, attire of wedding party, and attire of bride and groom.  The fact that your mother has already DICTATED anything related to your wedding attire is a HUGE red flag.  We have seen time and time again how easily and quickly wedding planning can turn family into completely crazy kinfolk.  Has your mom always been this controlling?

Do you want her telling you how to wear your hair?  Do you want her telling your FI what he should wear?  I really encourage you to rethink this entire situation. In the end, it will be you and your FI doing all the bickering.  No amount of money is worth the stress and anger that can and does come with a controlling, demanding, and manipulating fund source.  The wedding should be a reflection of the bridal couple.

As far as your FMIL and your dress......if possible, could you invite her to see the dress when it comes in to the store?  If that does not work, perhaps you could arrange to FaceTime the appointment, so that she could see it during a fitting.

I just want to quote this so you read it again OP.  You were initially set on an elopement with your FI.  Now you are having this huge wedding that is supposedly going to be black tie (but no where near it in reality).  How does your FI feel about ANY of this? 

I am also encouraging some pre-marital counseling for you and your FI.  You two, together, decided on the elopement.  Your FI even said you shouldn't mention it to your mom and now look at what has happened.  Your mom has taken over.  This will only continue through your married life.  You need to learn how to set boundaries with your mom and learn to say no.

kimmiinthemitten

Woah, there's a lot here to take in.

First, I agree with PP's about black tie.

Second, you mention open bar is off the table, please tell me the back up plan is not cash bar.

Third, the only people who's clothing  you can dictate are your own and your WP if you choose.  Let your father wear what he wants.  My dad is wearing a tux and my FFIL is wearing a suit.  Neither will be less or more fatherly because of their clothes.

Fourth, you're going a little out of order and I think you could benefit from some serious lurking before planning anything further.  You need to have an *adult* conversation with your parents about what they mean when they say you won't pay for anything and what their real strings are.  Does mom really mean you have no say, or does she have standards that are non-negotiable?  It's her money so she has a say, but you and your FI don't have to accept it if it's not what you want.

Once you figure out who is paying and what your budget is, you need to set a guest list.  Once you have a budget and a guest list you can shop for a venue, run the date by your VIPs, and start really planning.  I think it's backwards to buy the dress before the venue.

You're now in a Carrie Bradshaw situation where your dress has upped the ante and your 75 person wedding in a suit by no-one has become an extravagant affair at the NYC library.

OliveOilsMom

@Kimmiinthemitten I have read a few times before, especially when I was planning my wedding and reading the bridal mags, that the dress dictates the formality of the event.  I don't agree with it, but there are people out there who state that.  So I do believe its a totally made up thing by the wedding industry, so if some people read that, they will believe it because the magazine says so!

lottie64

Thank you everyone. Sorry for the delayed response.. Time change is a hassle! @OliveOilsMom @kimmiinthemitten @MobKaz

I'm not sure if a bit of backstory would be helpful or not, but here goes. @MobKaz yes my mom has always been a bit controlling. My fiancé and I wanted to elope because with scheduling, the distance we live from all of our family and friends, we knew it would be best for us. He wanted to elope, not tell anyone, and still plan a "wedding". I wasn't okay with that and told him if we were eloping we would share the news. My fault was to share that news with my parents ahead of time. After a mini fallout with them, I wanted to push ahead anyway with our plans because they were making it all about them and their feelings. My fiancé and I discussed and he wanted me to maintain a decent relationship with my parents and really advocated for not eloping, and to go ahead with the wedding plans. 

When we decided to go ahead with a wedding, we were excited because we would be getting experiences we wouldn't have gotten if we eloped. Registering, wedding party, etc.. Excitement wore off quick, however as the actual planning started. Part of the reason I was looking forward to eloping was not having to deal with my parents on the planning. With the time change (we're 3 hours behind), it's been difficult getting any chance to have any planning conversations with my parents (for over a month now), and we haven't gotten any closer to anything. 

I do have another post going in Wedding 911 describing the budget issues, so I won't get into that mess here. 

My parents planned a visit for this past weekend, and it was always the plan for my mom and I to go dress shopping, I just hoped we would have had a venue already. It was our goal (between fiancé and I) to have a venue settled by last weekend, which would have given us a chance to get some serious planning done with my parents while they were here. The only thing we did was get a dress, which they decided would make the event black tie. 

I admit, I did not know all the intricacies of a black tie event, and now that you all have informed me, I definitely don't want to go that route! Thank you! I love my dress, but it never occurred to me that everyone "should" be black tie.. That was my parents. I'd happily shorten my train, but they've already told me that since they're paying for it, I can't.... 

In terms of money, my fiancé and I will be contributing what we can. 

As for the bar.. Mom doesn't want liquor served after dinner, doesn't like the idea of an open bar....

FMIL won't be able to come out to see the dress before the wedding.. 

sorry if I missed something! I'm on my phone

essentially, everything is majorly screwed up. 

OurWildKingdom

Ironring said:

Show the dress to whomever you want. I showed FMIL and FSIL. 

Also, a cathedral length veil does not mean you HAVE to have a black tie wedding. Have one if you and your FI want and it fits with the rest of your plans, but it should be based on what you want, not on what veil you buy.  

And on what you (and anyone helping you) can afford.

ILoveBeachMusic

lottie64 said:

Thank you everyone. Sorry for the delayed response.. Time change is a hassle! @OliveOilsMom @kimmiinthemitten @MobKaz

I'm not sure if a bit of backstory would be helpful or not, but here goes. @MobKaz yes my mom has always been a bit controlling. My fiancé and I wanted to elope because with scheduling, the distance we live from all of our family and friends, we knew it would be best for us. He wanted to elope, not tell anyone, and still plan a "wedding". I wasn't okay with that and told him if we were eloping we would share the news. My fault was to share that news with my parents ahead of time. After a mini fallout with them, I wanted to push ahead anyway with our plans because they were making it all about them and their feelings. My fiancé and I discussed and he wanted me to maintain a decent relationship with my parents and really advocated for not eloping, and to go ahead with the wedding plans. 

When we decided to go ahead with a wedding, we were excited because we would be getting experiences we wouldn't have gotten if we eloped. Registering, wedding party, etc.. Excitement wore off quick, however as the actual planning started. Part of the reason I was looking forward to eloping was not having to deal with my parents on the planning. With the time change (we're 3 hours behind), it's been difficult getting any chance to have any planning conversations with my parents (for over a month now), and we haven't gotten any closer to anything. 

I do have another post going in Wedding 911 describing the budget issues, so I won't get into that mess here. 

My parents planned a visit for this past weekend, and it was always the plan for my mom and I to go dress shopping, I just hoped we would have had a venue already. It was our goal (between fiancé and I) to have a venue settled by last weekend, which would have given us a chance to get some serious planning done with my parents while they were here. The only thing we did was get a dress, which they decided would make the event black tie. 

I admit, I did not know all the intricacies of a black tie event, and now that you all have informed me, I definitely don't want to go that route! Thank you! I love my dress, but it never occurred to me that everyone "should" be black tie.. That was my parents. I'd happily shorten my train, but they've already told me that since they're paying for it, I can't.... 

In terms of money, my fiancé and I will be contributing what we can. 

As for the bar.. Mom doesn't want liquor served after dinner, doesn't like the idea of an open bar....

FMIL won't be able to come out to see the dress before the wedding.. 

sorry if I missed something! I'm on my phone

essentially, everything is majorly screwed up. 

To the first bolded, as I think PPs have said, the train length DOES NOT dictate the formality of the event. Keep the train length. You don't have to have a black tie wedding.

To the second, it is extremely rude to stop offering a bar after a certain time at the reception. If she doesn't want to serve liquor after dinner, don't serve it before dinner and just serve wine and beer. Wine and beer is perfectly acceptable as is a dry wedding. Of course, that is only true if you are not having a black tie event (which you aren't).

lottie64

@ILoveBeachMusic I want to shorten my train because it's just a tad too long for me! It has nothing to do with my parents desire for a black tie or anything like that. The train length was the only part I wasn't completely in love with about the dress, and that can be fixed! I totally understand now (after hearing people other than my parents!) that the length doesn't dictate the formality. 

The bar... My fiancé and I want to have an open bar with liquor, beer, and wine. I do not like the idea of having an open bar, but stopping service on something after a certain point. She thinks people get too rowdy with liquor, but I know people can get just as rowdy with beer and wine. I would rather not serve liquor to begin with, than to stop it after a certain point, because I agree, that is rude!

tigerlily6

lottie64 said:

@ILoveBeachMusic I want to shorten my train because it's just a tad too long for me! It has nothing to do with my parents desire for a black tie or anything like that. The train length was the only part I wasn't completely in love with about the dress, and that can be fixed! I totally understand now (after hearing people other than my parents!) that the length doesn't dictate the formality. 

The bar... My fiancé and I want to have an open bar with liquor, beer, and wine. I do not like the idea of having an open bar, but stopping service on something after a certain point. She thinks people get too rowdy with liquor, but I know people can get just as rowdy with beer and wine. I would rather not serve liquor to begin with, than to stop it after a certain point, because I agree, that is rude!

It may be best to go with no alcohol at all, then, which is 100% okay. If you do decide to serve alcohol, here are the other alternatives:

• Hosted wine and beer only, but available all through the reception
• Hosted wine, beer, and a signature cocktail, but all available through the reception.

If alcohol makes you uncomfortable, then don't serve it. You know your guests best. But it is also generally advised here that MOST guests will know how to keep themselves pretty decent, and if they don't, then you can always have them escorted out. We served wine, beer, and a signature cocktail at our wedding, and nobody got too smashed (which was impressive, considering some of our friends and family!). The after-party got wild, so I heard, but neither my parents (the hosts) nor DH and I had to worry about that. Adults can make their own choices. 

lottie64

@tigerlily6 my fiancé and I have no qualms about an open bar. We prefer it! If people drink too much, that's on them, and I'm not going to let it detract from our day. I only said people can get rowdy on beer and wine, not just hard alcohol because I said that to my mom! She seemed to think it could only be bad if there were liquor. But overall, the bar is the least of my worries right now! I'm tackling one obstacle at a time, and the bar has just been a topic of conversation thus far, with no actual decisions being made. 

CMGragain

When your parents were married, the men in the bridal party usually wore tuxedos if it was an evening wedding.  The trend for today's weddings is moving towards men wearing suits, which is actually more traditional than tuxedos at weddings.  You can do whatever you wish.

MobKaz

@lottie64 said, yes my mom has always been a bit controlling. My fiancé and I wanted to elope because with scheduling, the distance we live from all of our family and friends, we knew it would be best for us. He wanted to elope, not tell anyone, and still plan a "wedding". I wasn't okay with that and told him if we were eloping we would share the news. My fault was to share that news with my parents ahead of time. After a mini fallout with them, I wanted to push ahead anyway with our plans because they were making it all about them and their feelings. My fiancé and I discussed and he wanted me to maintain a decent relationship with my parents and really advocated for not eloping, and to go ahead with the wedding plans. 

When we decided to go ahead with a wedding, we were excited because we would be getting experiences we wouldn't have gotten if we eloped. Registering, wedding party, etc.. Excitement wore off quick, however as the actual planning started. Part of the reason I was looking forward to eloping was not having to deal with my parents on the planning. With the time change (we're 3 hours behind), it's been difficult getting any chance to have any planning conversations with my parents (for over a month now), and we haven't gotten any closer to anything."


@lottie64, I cannot tell you how desperately I want to encourage you to stop this madness before it goes any further.  With all due respect, your mom is NOT a "bit"controlling.  She is out of control controlling.You realize that the minute you added your mom into your wedding equation, your excitement turned immediately into frustration.  You yourself said, "I did not want to deal with my parents".

This sounds like a gross exaggeration at the moment, but do you want your mom controlling and dictating other aspects of your future life?  Do you want her telling you how to raise children? 

You and your FI need to discuss the type of wedding YOU want.  Then you need to figure out how long it will take you to save up to pay for that wedding.  You already are leaning toward more budget friendly ideas, such as a dry or limited bar (limited in offerings, not time).  It sounds to me like a beautiful brunch wedding, with perhaps simple mimosa's, might fit your bill.  Brunch weddings can be elegant, formal, and reasonable in budget.

For the record, your FI needs to realize there is NO such thing as an elopement followed by a "wedding".  You get ONE.  Choose wisely.

redoryx

Give the money back. Cancel everything. Elope like you originally planned (but without the "wedding" later -- once you are married, you are married). 

Also, keep in mind, the wedding can't happen without you and your FI. Your parents can't make you do anything unless they literally hold a gun to your head.