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[Deleted User]

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lyndausvi

This is very much a know your crowd answer.  Is Samba normally danced in your crowd?

 My family wouldn't be offended, buy wouldn't get why they were there either.   We are not samba dancers so it would be odd and out of place.  Families like the Duggar's would be horrified.  Other families would embrace them being there.

[Deleted User]

lyndausvi said:

This is very much a know your crowd answer.  Is Samba normally danced in your crowd?

 My family wouldn't be offended, buy wouldn't get why they were there either.   We are not samba dancers so it would be odd and out of place.  Families like the Duggar's would be horrified.  Other families would embrace them being there.

Yes, you are right. It is a 'know your crowd' moment. It is a Caribbean carnival themed wedding, (e.g. there will be steel pans) and the dancers go with this theme. I know it is Brazilian, but the outfits and dancing can be found in many countries that have carnivals.

STARMOON44

Knottie8f6a5db42e0a0a3d said:

lyndausvi said:

This is very much a know your crowd answer.  Is Samba normally danced in your crowd?

 My family wouldn't be offended, buy wouldn't get why they were there either.   We are not samba dancers so it would be odd and out of place.  Families like the Duggar's would be horrified.  Other families would embrace them being there.

Yes, you are right. It is a 'know your crowd' moment. It is a Caribbean carnival themed wedding, (e.g. there will be steel pans) and the dancers go with this theme. I know it is Brazilian, but the outfits and dancing can be found in many countries that have carnivals.

Are you or your fiancé from a Carribean or Brazilian culture? If not, I don't think any of this is appropriate. Other people's cultures aren't convenient festive party themes for white people. If this is your culture then enjoy!

[Deleted User]

STARMOON44 said:

Knottie8f6a5db42e0a0a3d said:

lyndausvi said:

This is very much a know your crowd answer.  Is Samba normally danced in your crowd?

 My family wouldn't be offended, buy wouldn't get why they were there either.   We are not samba dancers so it would be odd and out of place.  Families like the Duggar's would be horrified.  Other families would embrace them being there.

Yes, you are right. It is a 'know your crowd' moment. It is a Caribbean carnival themed wedding, (e.g. there will be steel pans) and the dancers go with this theme. I know it is Brazilian, but the outfits and dancing can be found in many countries that have carnivals.

Are you or your fiancé from a Carribean or Brazilian culture? If not, I don't think any of this is appropriate. Other people's cultures aren't convenient festive party themes for white people. If this is your culture then enjoy!

I'm from the Caribbean! Living in the UK now. I actually don't mind if white people (or any other people) use other countries as inspiration/theme. We live in a globalised world where people are exposed to cultures from around the world.  I think it's ok to love/like something that is outside your culture as long as you are respectful.

If a bunch of white guests came in blackface to my wedding to be part of my theme, I WOULD NOT BE OK with that.

If my white friends threw a caribbean styled party with rum punch and jerk chicken canapes, I wouldn't mind.  I may find it a little one-dimensional in terms of their interpretation, but if there was no malice there, I wouldn't mind.

The only thing I hate is when people get influenced by another culture and pretend they invented it!

lyndausvi

Knottie8f6a5db42e0a0a3d said:

lyndausvi said:

This is very much a know your crowd answer.  Is Samba normally danced in your crowd?

 My family wouldn't be offended, buy wouldn't get why they were there either.   We are not samba dancers so it would be odd and out of place.  Families like the Duggar's would be horrified.  Other families would embrace them being there.

Yes, you are right. It is a 'know your crowd' moment. It is a Caribbean carnival themed wedding, (e.g. there will be steel pans) and the dancers go with this theme. I know it is Brazilian, but the outfits and dancing can be found in many countries that have carnivals.

Are you going to have Moko Jumbies too?

STARMOON44

Well if you are from the Carribean enjoy

[Deleted User]

lyndausvi said:

Knottie8f6a5db42e0a0a3d said:

lyndausvi said:

This is very much a know your crowd answer.  Is Samba normally danced in your crowd?

 My family wouldn't be offended, buy wouldn't get why they were there either.   We are not samba dancers so it would be odd and out of place.  Families like the Duggar's would be horrified.  Other families would embrace them being there.

Yes, you are right. It is a 'know your crowd' moment. It is a Caribbean carnival themed wedding, (e.g. there will be steel pans) and the dancers go with this theme. I know it is Brazilian, but the outfits and dancing can be found in many countries that have carnivals.

Are you going to have Moko Jumbies too?

No, Not enough space in the venue. I'm having capoeira dancers. I wanted african acrobats, but this is pretty close.

lyndausvi

You are from the Caribbean, so I find it odd you are asking the question.  Your family should be fine with it.  I would hope your non-island friends and family should embrace the culture.



I lived in the islands for 16+ years.  I was in a troupe one year wearing a similar outfit.   I had to be pretty buzzed though.  Ha.    

[Deleted User]

lyndausvi said:

You are from the Caribbean, so I find it odd you are asking the question.  Your family should be fine with it.  I would hope your non-island friends and family should embrace the culture.



I lived in the islands for 16+ years.  I was in a troupe one year wearing a similar outfit.   I had to be pretty buzzed though.  Ha.    

I was really asking on before of my non-Caribbean friends.  I don't want to scandalise anyone.  My family will love it! They won't expect it.

[Deleted User]

lyndausvi said:

You are from the Caribbean, so I find it odd you are asking the question.  Your family should be fine with it.  I would hope your non-island friends and family should embrace the culture.



I lived in the islands for 16+ years.  I was in a troupe one year wearing a similar outfit.   I had to be pretty buzzed though.  Ha.    

I was really asking on before of my non-Caribbean friends.  I don't want to scandalise anyone.  My family will love it! They won't expect it.

lyndausvi

Is your FI from the islands too?   If not, what do they think?    Not that I would necessarily change my mind if there were some pearl clutchers in the extended family, but if my FI thought it would be too much, then I might compromise.  


 If you were from Scotland with no ties to the islands  and decided to have a them then it would be weird.  That is not the case here. It's your culture.

[Deleted User]

lyndausvi said:

Is your FI from the islands too?   If not, what do they think?    Not that I would necessarily change my mind if there were some pearl clutchers in the extended family, but if my FI thought it would be too much, then I might compromise.  


 If you were from Scotland with no ties to the islands  and decided to have a them then it would be weird.  That is not the case here. It's your culture.

FI is British. I asked him about his family and friends and he said they would be shocked because they wouldn't expect it, but they would find it really fun. At first he was nervous, in terms of how little the dancers wear. They are pretty much wearing huge wings, a sparkly thong and bra (what you see in the picture I posted in the original post).

I explained that it was consistent with the rest of the day. We are having lots of 'caribbean moments' like food etc and part of my culture. He then agreed because he thought he would be fun and because it will be done in the evening, (not right after the ceremony or something!) 

I was just wondering if anyone would find it inappropriate or if I was breaking an etiquette rule I didn't know about.

lyndausvi

Well those Brits are known to be stuffy.  Ha.   Just kidding.


I'm bias because I lived in the islands for so long. I've attended many carnivals. .  We also had carnival themed events at the resort I worked.  It wasn't an issue.  Kids and adults alike always had a great time.  Getting up dancing and getting into the rhythm.    When you add the music and dancing, it all fits.  It's not like they are just randomly walking around.  It's a performance.

[Deleted User]

lyndausvi said:

Well those Brits are known to be stuffy.  Ha.   Just kidding.


I'm bias because I lived in the islands for so long. I've attended many carnivals. .  We also had carnival themed events at the resort I worked.  It wasn't an issue.  Kids and adults alike always had a great time.  Getting up dancing and getting into the rhythm.    When you add the music and dancing, it all fits.  It's not like they are just randomly walking around.  It's a performance.

That's exactly what I thought. I think (as a Brit) he was associating nudity with sex, but I don't see these dancers as equivalent to strippers. They are all professionally trained dancers who do a highly choreographed routine. It's really amazing. The actual performance is short, then they dance with the guests and get everyone dancing with them.

STARMOON44

Wait are you the same person who only wants to invite half your guests to half the day? If you do that because you can't afford not to I wouldn't be throwing your money away on steel drums and dancers. 

charlotte989875

I agree with PPs; this is your culture and dancers typically perform at weddings I see no problem. I also don't think there is anything scandalous about their outfits; they're performers and this is what they wear. 

One other thing to consider; does this fit with the level of hosting for the rest of your event? I assume you're having an evening wedding, will you also have open bar (top shelf or otherwise wide variety of choices) and plated/high quality food? I would think it odd if you hired dancers/performers but didn't have high quality food/drinks. 

[Deleted User]

STARMOON44 said:

Wait are you the same person who only wants to invite half your guests to half the day? If you do that because you can't afford not to I wouldn't be throwing your money away on steel drums and dancers. 

Well my parents are paying for the entertainment so it doesn't affect my budget. I DON'T WANT  to invite half my guests to half my day.  It's just finding a ceremony venue near my reception hall, that fits 200 guests, is easily commutable for guests with their own cars and guests who travel on public transport is difficult. 

The only place I found that doesn't involve a massive trek for guests only sits 80 people.  I was going to invite all the guests to two thirds of the day (lunch and reception)if you want to be exact and 80 to the ceremony.  The 80 would be just family. I don't want this thread to go off on a tangent. 

I don't want to have the ceremony in the same room and renting another venue that is licensed for weddings AND holds 200 people is out of my budget and would require a long trek for guests. 

Also I don't consider entertaining guests a waste of money.

jacques27

If it's culturally appropriate for your family?  Fine.

Not fine if it's coming at the expense of hosting ALL of your guests appropriately.  If other things in your budget that affect all of your guests being properly hosted (all are attending, have a place to sit, are being fed appropriately for the time of day, do not have to open their wallets for anything i.e. no cash bar) have to be cut because you're spending money on extra entertainment, then it is not appropriate at all.

[Deleted User]

lyndausvi said:

Well those Brits are known to be stuffy.  Ha.   Just kidding.


I'm bias because I lived in the islands for so long. I've attended many carnivals. .  We also had carnival themed events at the resort I worked.  It wasn't an issue.  Kids and adults alike always had a great time.  Getting up dancing and getting into the rhythm.    When you add the music and dancing, it all fits.  It's not like they are just randomly walking around.  It's a performance.

The reason I brought up entertainment is that I've seen threads about brides being AW and I wondered if these dancers would count. Honestly by TK standards a full caribbean/african wedding is probably completely AWish because they are loud, over the top, ostentatious and colourful! lol

charlotte989875

Knottie8f6a5db42e0a0a3d said:

STARMOON44 said:

Wait are you the same person who only wants to invite half your guests to half the day? If you do that because you can't afford not to I wouldn't be throwing your money away on steel drums and dancers. 

Well my parents are paying for the entertainment so it doesn't affect my budget. I DON'T WANT  to invite half my guests to half my day.  It's just finding a ceremony venue near my reception hall, that fits 200 guests, is easily commutable for guests with their own cars and guests who travel on public transport is difficult. 

The only place I found that doesn't involve a massive trek for guests only sits 80 people.  I was going to invite all the guests to two thirds of the day (lunch and reception) and 80 to the ceremony.  I don't want this thread to go off on a tangent. 

It's not going to matter to your guests who is paying for what. The effect to the guests is you care more about the pictures/performance/party than their comfort and feelings. This may not be your intent but you risk coming off this way. Knottie8f6a5db42e0a0a3d said:

lyndausvi said:

Well those Brits are known to be stuffy.  Ha.   Just kidding.


I'm bias because I lived in the islands for so long. I've attended many carnivals. .  We also had carnival themed events at the resort I worked.  It wasn't an issue.  Kids and adults alike always had a great time.  Getting up dancing and getting into the rhythm.    When you add the music and dancing, it all fits.  It's not like they are just randomly walking around.  It's a performance.

The reason I brought up entertainment is that I've seen threads about brides being AW and I wondered if these dancers would count. Honestly by TK standards a full caribbean/african wedding is probably completely AWish because they are loud, over the top, ostentatious and colourful! lol

No one here would insult weddings and cultures in this away. Style/decor are choices and as long as they're are not affecting guests, or are made without concern about guest comfort (I.e. Spending tons of money on decor, but having a cash bar) then do as you please! 

[Deleted User]

jacques27 said:

If it's culturally appropriate for your family?  Fine.

Not fine if it's coming at the expense of hosting ALL of your guests appropriately.  If other things in your budget that affect all of your guests being properly hosted (all are attending, have a place to sit, are being fed appropriately for the time of day, do not have to open their wallets for anything i.e. no cash bar) have to be cut because you're spending money on extra entertainment, then it is not appropriate at all.

Caribbean tradition requires guests to be taken care of and there will be a hosted bar, more food than you can imagine, extra seats (just in case guests bring someone uninvited).  

The caribbean guests who are not coming to the ceremony won't mind, as long as they get enough food and drink and a party afterwards, (which is pretty much why they go to parties), and I hope the european guests won't! I don't know - European, western etiquette is much stricter than Caribbean etiquette so it is harder for me to predict how they will feel. TK is far more representative of white culture/european views so I'm guessing from the response, the white guests would be upset?

I was largely using this forum to understand how some of the white guests will feel, because the black ones will be completely indifferent as long as there is enough food and drink.  Etiquette is dependent on region and location.  

charlotte989875

Knottie8f6a5db42e0a0a3d said:

jacques27 said:

If it's culturally appropriate for your family?  Fine.

Not fine if it's coming at the expense of hosting ALL of your guests appropriately.  If other things in your budget that affect all of your guests being properly hosted (all are attending, have a place to sit, are being fed appropriately for the time of day, do not have to open their wallets for anything i.e. no cash bar) have to be cut because you're spending money on extra entertainment, then it is not appropriate at all.

Caribbean tradition requires guests to be taken care of and there will be a hosted bar, more food than you can imagine, extra seats (just in case guests bring someone uninvited).  

The caribbean guests who are not coming to the ceremony won't mind, as long as they get enough food and drink and a party afterwards, (which is pretty much why they go to parties), and I hope the european guests won't! I don't know - European, western etiquette is much stricter than Caribbean etiquette so it is harder for me to predict how they will feel. TK is far more representative of white culture/european views so I'm guessing from the response, the white guests would be upset?

I was largely using this forum to understand how some of the white guests will feel, because the black ones will be completely indifferent as long as there is enough food and drink.  Etiquette is dependent on region and location.  

Yes. This is what we've been saying, your guests will be upset not being invited to the ceremony. 

[Deleted User]

charlotte989875 said:

Knottie8f6a5db42e0a0a3d said:

jacques27 said:

If it's culturally appropriate for your family?  Fine.

Not fine if it's coming at the expense of hosting ALL of your guests appropriately.  If other things in your budget that affect all of your guests being properly hosted (all are attending, have a place to sit, are being fed appropriately for the time of day, do not have to open their wallets for anything i.e. no cash bar) have to be cut because you're spending money on extra entertainment, then it is not appropriate at all.

Caribbean tradition requires guests to be taken care of and there will be a hosted bar, more food than you can imagine, extra seats (just in case guests bring someone uninvited).  

The caribbean guests who are not coming to the ceremony won't mind, as long as they get enough food and drink and a party afterwards, (which is pretty much why they go to parties), and I hope the european guests won't! I don't know - European, western etiquette is much stricter than Caribbean etiquette so it is harder for me to predict how they will feel. TK is far more representative of white culture/european views so I'm guessing from the response, the white guests would be upset?

I was largely using this forum to understand how some of the white guests will feel, because the black ones will be completely indifferent as long as there is enough food and drink.  Etiquette is dependent on region and location.  

Yes. This is what we've been saying, your guests will be upset not being invited to the ceremony. 

I understand - the white guests will be upset. This sucks. I really want everyone to be happy. More people need to adopt a caribbean outlook, the world would be so much happier and more relaxed!

lyndausvi

Look I'm white.  I've been invited to only the reception without issue.  Both in the states and in islands.    

 That said, like I said in the other trend, this only worked in the states because the ceremony itself was super small.   80 people is not small.  In the islands I understood it was cultural and didn't mind I wasn't invited to the ceremony.  It wasn't a big deal, because honestly.  Island weddings were always running late which annoyed me more than just being invited to the party.

I know you said in the other thread 80 people would be your family.   Still too big in my opinion.   And I come form a huge family.  80 would also only be my first cousins (and their SO's), aunts, uncles and my immediate family.  Not even DH's side,  So I get it.   I really think you need to find an option for everyone or have a parents, siblings, maybe a friend or 2 ceremony.  

Otherwise have it in the same room as the reception.  I know that is not what  you want, but I think that you really should consider the option.   It's not going to be as bad as you imagine it would be.  I've worked them before and they are fine. The important thing it allows all your guests to witness your wedding.  Not just 40 percent leaving out the other 60 percent. 

charlotte989875

This isn't a race thing, regional maybe, but not race. If you're hosting a wedding in the UK many guests from the UK regardless of their race or ethnicity will be offended they are not invited to the ceremony. My friends and family of color would be extremely upset and offended had they not been invited to my ceremony and only to my reception. 

[Deleted User]

charlotte989875 said:

This isn't a race thing, regional maybe, but not race. If you're hosting a wedding in the UK many guests from the UK regardless of their race or ethnicity will be offended they are not invited to the ceremony. My friends and family of color would be extremely upset and offended had they not been invited to my ceremony and only to my reception. 

It IS a race thing, in terms of race being linked to culture and that's very important.  Etiquette is highly culturally specific. In my dad 's culture, if you take something from a friend with your left hand that's considered highly offensive.

Generally speaking TK is directed towards and largely involves a white audience.  There is nothing wrong with that, but you need to remember that white people do not get to determine what amounts to appropriate behaviour for the entire world. 

What is perceived as proper hosting IS NOT UNIVERSAL. In my mother's country, people don't normally even send out wedding invites, you just tell them through word of mouth.  

My caribbean friends/family would be VERY offended if they were evening guests and were just invited to the bit in the evening. They wouldn't be offended over missing the ceremony.  You say your 'friends and family of color,' which refers to anyone who is not white. I'm not sure how chinese, japanese, turkish, arabs, indians etc would feel about this sort of thing, but I'm not referring to them.

[Deleted User]

lyndausvi said:

Look I'm white.  I've been invited to only the reception without issue.  Both in the states and in islands.    

 That said, like I said in the other trend, this only worked in the states because the ceremony itself was super small.   80 people is not small.  In the islands I understood it was cultural and didn't mind I wasn't invited to the ceremony.  It wasn't a big deal, because honestly.  Island weddings were always running late which annoyed me more than just being invited to the party.

I know you said in the other thread 80 people would be your family.   Still too big in my opinion.   And I come form a huge family.  80 would also only be my first cousins (and their SO's), aunts, uncles and my immediate family.  Not even DH's side,  So I get it.   I really think you need to find an option for everyone or have a parents, siblings, maybe a friend or 2 ceremony.  

Otherwise have it in the same room as the reception.  I know that is not what  you want, but I think that you really should consider the option.   It's not going to be as bad as you imagine it would be.  I've worked them before and they are fine. The important thing it allows all your guests to witness your wedding.  Not just 40 percent leaving out the other 60 percent. 

Mine will not be running late.

Thanks for being understanding.

One quick question: My FI initially suggested evening guests as an option because they do that in his friendship group. I quickly squashed that idea.

However, if his friends often do evening guests at their own weddings, (which is worse than what I an proposing, I think), would they be offended by my original plan?

charlotte989875

Knottie8f6a5db42e0a0a3d said:

charlotte989875 said:

This isn't a race thing, regional maybe, but not race. If you're hosting a wedding in the UK many guests from the UK regardless of their race or ethnicity will be offended they are not invited to the ceremony. My friends and family of color would be extremely upset and offended had they not been invited to my ceremony and only to my reception. 

It IS a race thing, in terms of race being linked to culture and that's very important.  Etiquette is highly culturally specific. In my dad 's culture, if you take something from a friend with your left hand that's considered highly offensive.

Generally speaking TK is directed towards and largely involves a white audience.  There is nothing wrong with that, but you need to remember that white people do not get to determine what amounts to appropriate behaviour for the entire world. 

What is perceived as proper hosting IS NOT UNIVERSAL. In my mother's country, people don't normally even send out wedding invites, you just tell them through word of mouth.  

My caribbean friends/family would be VERY offended if they were evening guests and were just invited to the bit in the evening. They wouldn't be offended over missing the ceremony.  You say your 'friends and family of color,' which refers to anyone who is not white. I'm not sure how chinese, turkish, arabs, indians would feel about this sort of thing, but I'm not referring to them.

I didn't explain myself well. Yes race and culture are linked. But what you are suggesting by saying your white guests will be upset is that anyone who is non-white won't be offended if not invited to the ceremony. Maybe that's the case in your family. But are any of your guests from the UK People of color? I'm trying to say that because you are hosting a wedding where etiquette is inviting all guests to all aspects of your wedding, you may offend any non-white UK guests because you're assuming it's only the white guests that will be offended. KWIM? 

I'm not saying race isn't an important part of culture, I am saying don't assume it's only white guests that would be offended not to be invited to the ceremony. 

[Deleted User]

charlotte989875 said:

Knottie8f6a5db42e0a0a3d said:

charlotte989875 said:

This isn't a race thing, regional maybe, but not race. If you're hosting a wedding in the UK many guests from the UK regardless of their race or ethnicity will be offended they are not invited to the ceremony. My friends and family of color would be extremely upset and offended had they not been invited to my ceremony and only to my reception. 

It IS a race thing, in terms of race being linked to culture and that's very important.  Etiquette is highly culturally specific. In my dad 's culture, if you take something from a friend with your left hand that's considered highly offensive.

Generally speaking TK is directed towards and largely involves a white audience.  There is nothing wrong with that, but you need to remember that white people do not get to determine what amounts to appropriate behaviour for the entire world. 

What is perceived as proper hosting IS NOT UNIVERSAL. In my mother's country, people don't normally even send out wedding invites, you just tell them through word of mouth.  

My caribbean friends/family would be VERY offended if they were evening guests and were just invited to the bit in the evening. They wouldn't be offended over missing the ceremony.  You say your 'friends and family of color,' which refers to anyone who is not white. I'm not sure how chinese, turkish, arabs, indians would feel about this sort of thing, but I'm not referring to them.

I didn't explain myself well. Yes race and culture are linked. But what you are suggesting by saying your white guests will be upset is that anyone who is non-white won't be offended if not invited to the ceremony. Maybe that's the case in your family. But are any of your guests from the UK People of color? I'm trying to say that because you are hosting a wedding where etiquette is inviting all guests to all aspects of your wedding, you may offend any non-white UK guests because you're assuming it's only the white guests that will be offended. KWIM? 

I'm not saying race isn't an important part of culture, I am saying don't assume it's only white guests that would be offended not to be invited to the ceremony. 

I am a UK person of colour, (born in the UK), and my UK non-white friends won't be bothered. We still subscribe to many of the traditions of our families, which is true of many (although not all), people of colour in the UK. 

lyndausvi

Question - Your FI is brit.   You are having the wedding in London (right?).    Some Brits seem okay with this whole evening guest list thing.   You are not suggesting that (which is good), my islands friends would be offended also.  

What does your FI think of 80 ceremony, 200 reception thing?   All guests will be hosted equally, it's just that some will not witness the ceremony.  

I'm not British and while I lived in the islands for many years, each island is a little different.   I'm not sure I have enough knowledge to completely help you.  

As I said, in my world what your are suggesting wouldn't fly.   A super small ceremony, large reception is fine (has been done).  Not with the numbers you are suggesting.     Your numbers are based on invites.  While you should plan on 100%, fact is the bigger your list the more chance of declines.   The more OOT people you have, the chances of declines increases also.  You might find out after all the RSVPs come back that a smaller percentage of people are going to be excluded from the ceremony.   People do not want to be part of the minority who were excluded.    

Just something to think about.   Everything situation is different.  Your millage may vary.