Wedding Woes

Laser Hair Removal

2

Re: Laser Hair Removal

  • banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I got laser about 8 years ago and it worked for a few months and then all grew back.
    I no longer bother removing my body hair. I have light skin and thick, dark hair that grows on my face, chest, and stomach, as well as on my legs. It is part of my body and I no longer worry about changing my body to conform to a male-defined expectation of female beauty.
    I found it very interesting and infuriating to learn about the history of women's hair removal in North America. It was practically non-existent until shaving companies needed a new market during WW1.
    I never once got mine done for a man or even thought I was doing it for that purpose.  I hated having chin hair.  Hated the feel.  The look.  Everything.  I doubt men even noticed. 
    Not saying you got yours done "for a man". I'm saying that the idea that women should not have facial hair is ahistorical and male-defined.
    It's like when women claim they're shaving their legs "because I like how smooth it feels!" but wouldn't even know what having smooth legs felt like if they hadn't removed it in the first place.

    Most of us who remove certain hair remember being old enough to know what it was like to have it come in.  Maybe you always had hair in the places it grows now but I didn't. 

    And I personally prefer to keep things trim in the same way that I see my hair stylist every 6 weeks.  No, I don't HAVE to cut my hair or style it but I prefer the way I look with styled hair, plucked eyebrows, no dark upper lip hair, shaved armpits and hair that doesn't peek out of my underwear.   I'll be honest that I shave my legs a heck of a lot less when it's colder but once it's warmer, I think they look and feel better when they're clean-shaven.   

    If you don't want to do those things then that's great.   I'll admit that in general I'm someone who conforms to a lot of societal norms.    At this point, I don't think you can call it solely male-defined expectations.   They may be of male origination but I think there's plenty of female expectations to change.  
    True, lots of women enforce male-created standards on other women as a way of maintaining their position in the status quo. You see that in a lot of the defensiveness - "I spend hours of time and lots of money doing painful things to modify my body because I like it!" in that. It's so strange. Women who are interested in performing femininity often get upset when anyone criticizes these traditions and their impact on women in even the mildest of terms. Funnily enough, it's only ever been men who have physically attacked me on the street for being an ugly, hairy, man-hating dyke.
    Women just find more creative ways to subtly call me that, I guess.
    I think you're onto something that SOME women can project a way of if you're not doing it their way you're wrong.   Hell even in some cultures where female circumcision is practiced, it's the elder women who pin down the younger one to suffer ritualistic pain.  

    We are a culture where women can opt for a variety of hair, styles and clothing.   Some friends lasered themselves clean and I personally can't imagine looking like a small child however I don't want it sticking out of my underwear.  Others may opt for corsets, push up bras, thongs, or men's briefs.

    It's about understanding IMO that as long as it's your choice and no one else's it doesn't matter.
    We don't have a free choice though when one choice (not removing hair) is so intensely stigmatized and rendered culturally unacceptable. You do not ever see women in media with body hair. Even on post-apocalyptic shows like The Walking Dead where the men all have ratty beards, the women are still completely hairless. Razor commercials for women show a razor moving over an already bare leg - that's how unspeakable not removing your body hair is.
    This is a cultural phenomenon that affects all women and how we make our choices, whether we like it or not.
    When one choice involves harassment and abuse and the other is presented as the only acceptable way to exist, how can that be presented as a choice? When young women are just handed a razor when they hit puberty and expected to remove their body hair, almost before they have any?
    Women are not shown any way to grow up with their bodies in their natural state, and this cultural phenomenon requires critical analysis beyond "but I like it!" Of course most women are convinced they like it. We have never been given a real choice.

    Look - I get it.   We're told to do things a certain way.

    But FFS, there's a metric fuckton of pressure involved in raising a child.   I can tell you that if my own daughter wants to avoid shaving when the time comes that's her choice but I can't control what others do.   And while I'd love to yell and scream and police every child who rolls eyes in a middle school or high school setting the reality is that a lot of certain actions may also be advising you child to do something to protect them from the bullies.  

    And at this point, you're posting in a group of grown women who are aware that no one needs to tell them how to pluck eyebrows or shave their pits. 

    This is now needlessly criticizing those who opt to do something that may have roots in a male dominated choice but it's still something that I choose to do because *I* like it. 

    Get off the soapbox.   If you don't want to remove pit hair, facial hair or any body hair I don't care.   Stop condescending to the rest of us who make the choice to do it. 

    I didn't really see this as condescending at all. I read it more as an observation of society, double standards for men/women, cultural pressures on women, and women's response to it all. Nothing to take personally.

    It's a really interesting anthropological discussion, IMHO - and your point about self-protection by conformation is also super interesting and valid.
    I'm glad you said that.   I have felt particularly defensive in the last day just due to pain in the ass work situations so this probably didn't help.

    Navigating my own womanhood while raising a daughter is not easy.      
    PREACH. I don't even have a daughter (though I might) and I stress out about this kind of thing all the time. 

    One of my girlfriends is a step mom to an 11 year old girl. To be brief, the bio mom is a hot mess who tries to be more of a friend than a parent and told. her. daughter. to. shave. as soon as she had her first hair. I just.... I mean, different strokes right? Right? Lord help me understand that shit.
    *********************************************************************************

    image
  • banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I got laser about 8 years ago and it worked for a few months and then all grew back.
    I no longer bother removing my body hair. I have light skin and thick, dark hair that grows on my face, chest, and stomach, as well as on my legs. It is part of my body and I no longer worry about changing my body to conform to a male-defined expectation of female beauty.
    I found it very interesting and infuriating to learn about the history of women's hair removal in North America. It was practically non-existent until shaving companies needed a new market during WW1.
    I never once got mine done for a man or even thought I was doing it for that purpose.  I hated having chin hair.  Hated the feel.  The look.  Everything.  I doubt men even noticed. 
    Not saying you got yours done "for a man". I'm saying that the idea that women should not have facial hair is ahistorical and male-defined.
    It's like when women claim they're shaving their legs "because I like how smooth it feels!" but wouldn't even know what having smooth legs felt like if they hadn't removed it in the first place.

    Most of us who remove certain hair remember being old enough to know what it was like to have it come in.  Maybe you always had hair in the places it grows now but I didn't. 

    And I personally prefer to keep things trim in the same way that I see my hair stylist every 6 weeks.  No, I don't HAVE to cut my hair or style it but I prefer the way I look with styled hair, plucked eyebrows, no dark upper lip hair, shaved armpits and hair that doesn't peek out of my underwear.   I'll be honest that I shave my legs a heck of a lot less when it's colder but once it's warmer, I think they look and feel better when they're clean-shaven.   

    If you don't want to do those things then that's great.   I'll admit that in general I'm someone who conforms to a lot of societal norms.    At this point, I don't think you can call it solely male-defined expectations.   They may be of male origination but I think there's plenty of female expectations to change.  
    True, lots of women enforce male-created standards on other women as a way of maintaining their position in the status quo. You see that in a lot of the defensiveness - "I spend hours of time and lots of money doing painful things to modify my body because I like it!" in that. It's so strange. Women who are interested in performing femininity often get upset when anyone criticizes these traditions and their impact on women in even the mildest of terms. Funnily enough, it's only ever been men who have physically attacked me on the street for being an ugly, hairy, man-hating dyke.
    Women just find more creative ways to subtly call me that, I guess.
    I think you're onto something that SOME women can project a way of if you're not doing it their way you're wrong.   Hell even in some cultures where female circumcision is practiced, it's the elder women who pin down the younger one to suffer ritualistic pain.  

    We are a culture where women can opt for a variety of hair, styles and clothing.   Some friends lasered themselves clean and I personally can't imagine looking like a small child however I don't want it sticking out of my underwear.  Others may opt for corsets, push up bras, thongs, or men's briefs.

    It's about understanding IMO that as long as it's your choice and no one else's it doesn't matter.
    We don't have a free choice though when one choice (not removing hair) is so intensely stigmatized and rendered culturally unacceptable. You do not ever see women in media with body hair. Even on post-apocalyptic shows like The Walking Dead where the men all have ratty beards, the women are still completely hairless. Razor commercials for women show a razor moving over an already bare leg - that's how unspeakable not removing your body hair is.
    This is a cultural phenomenon that affects all women and how we make our choices, whether we like it or not.
    When one choice involves harassment and abuse and the other is presented as the only acceptable way to exist, how can that be presented as a choice? When young women are just handed a razor when they hit puberty and expected to remove their body hair, almost before they have any?
    Women are not shown any way to grow up with their bodies in their natural state, and this cultural phenomenon requires critical analysis beyond "but I like it!" Of course most women are convinced they like it. We have never been given a real choice.

    Look - I get it.   We're told to do things a certain way.

    But FFS, there's a metric fuckton of pressure involved in raising a child.   I can tell you that if my own daughter wants to avoid shaving when the time comes that's her choice but I can't control what others do.   And while I'd love to yell and scream and police every child who rolls eyes in a middle school or high school setting the reality is that a lot of certain actions may also be advising you child to do something to protect them from the bullies.  

    And at this point, you're posting in a group of grown women who are aware that no one needs to tell them how to pluck eyebrows or shave their pits. 

    This is now needlessly criticizing those who opt to do something that may have roots in a male dominated choice but it's still something that I choose to do because *I* like it. 

    Get off the soapbox.   If you don't want to remove pit hair, facial hair or any body hair I don't care.   Stop condescending to the rest of us who make the choice to do it. 

    I didn't really see this as condescending at all. I read it more as an observation of society, double standards for men/women, cultural pressures on women, and women's response to it all. Nothing to take personally.

    It's a really interesting anthropological discussion, IMHO - and your point about self-protection by conformation is also super interesting and valid.
    I'm glad you said that.   I have felt particularly defensive in the last day just due to pain in the ass work situations so this probably didn't help.

    Navigating my own womanhood while raising a daughter is not easy.      
    PREACH. I don't even have a daughter (though I might) and I stress out about this kind of thing all the time. 

    One of my girlfriends is a step mom to an 11 year old girl. To be brief, the bio mom is a hot mess who tries to be more of a friend than a parent and told. her. daughter. to. shave. as soon as she had her first hair. I just.... I mean, different strokes right? Right? Lord help me understand that shit.
    As I get older I just want to help my daughter know that she's accepted and we can help navigate things together.   But FFS, she doesn't need to remove the first hair!  


    southernbelle0915
  • I think it's silly that supposedly we've never had a choice so we can know whether we like it or not. Every woman I know goes, literally, months in the winter without shaving. I've had hair on my legs as long as my husband's! (And guess what? My husband doesn't care if I shave or not!) I like the feeling of shaved better, but I dislike shaving so I only shave when I'm going to wear a skirt or shorts.

    I've gone weeks on trips where I haven't had access to a shower without shaving my pits. I like it better shaved. It does tend to be less smelly. My husband, who does not shave his pits, scrubs and scrubs his pits in the shower with very strong soap and had a very hard time getting rid of all of the smell. 

  • I think it's silly that supposedly we've never had a choice so we can know whether we like it or not. Every woman I know goes, literally, months in the winter without shaving. I've had hair on my legs as long as my husband's! (And guess what? My husband doesn't care if I shave or not!) I like the feeling of shaved better, but I dislike shaving so I only shave when I'm going to wear a skirt or shorts.

    I've gone weeks on trips where I haven't had access to a shower without shaving my pits. I like it better shaved. It does tend to be less smelly. My husband, who does not shave his pits, scrubs and scrubs his pits in the shower with very strong soap and had a very hard time getting rid of all of the smell. 
    While we're at it, the idea of not smelling is something that not all nations do.  And we thumb our nose at people who are actually clean because they don't mask their bodily odors.

    My mom tells the story that a friend from HS didn't realize that the workers from her country smelled until she returned home and got on the bus.   Then she realized it.  


  • banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I got laser about 8 years ago and it worked for a few months and then all grew back.
    I no longer bother removing my body hair. I have light skin and thick, dark hair that grows on my face, chest, and stomach, as well as on my legs. It is part of my body and I no longer worry about changing my body to conform to a male-defined expectation of female beauty.
    I found it very interesting and infuriating to learn about the history of women's hair removal in North America. It was practically non-existent until shaving companies needed a new market during WW1.
    I never once got mine done for a man or even thought I was doing it for that purpose.  I hated having chin hair.  Hated the feel.  The look.  Everything.  I doubt men even noticed. 
    Not saying you got yours done "for a man". I'm saying that the idea that women should not have facial hair is ahistorical and male-defined.
    It's like when women claim they're shaving their legs "because I like how smooth it feels!" but wouldn't even know what having smooth legs felt like if they hadn't removed it in the first place.

    Most of us who remove certain hair remember being old enough to know what it was like to have it come in.  Maybe you always had hair in the places it grows now but I didn't. 

    And I personally prefer to keep things trim in the same way that I see my hair stylist every 6 weeks.  No, I don't HAVE to cut my hair or style it but I prefer the way I look with styled hair, plucked eyebrows, no dark upper lip hair, shaved armpits and hair that doesn't peek out of my underwear.   I'll be honest that I shave my legs a heck of a lot less when it's colder but once it's warmer, I think they look and feel better when they're clean-shaven.   

    If you don't want to do those things then that's great.   I'll admit that in general I'm someone who conforms to a lot of societal norms.    At this point, I don't think you can call it solely male-defined expectations.   They may be of male origination but I think there's plenty of female expectations to change.  
    True, lots of women enforce male-created standards on other women as a way of maintaining their position in the status quo. You see that in a lot of the defensiveness - "I spend hours of time and lots of money doing painful things to modify my body because I like it!" in that. It's so strange. Women who are interested in performing femininity often get upset when anyone criticizes these traditions and their impact on women in even the mildest of terms. Funnily enough, it's only ever been men who have physically attacked me on the street for being an ugly, hairy, man-hating dyke.
    Women just find more creative ways to subtly call me that, I guess.
    I think you're onto something that SOME women can project a way of if you're not doing it their way you're wrong.   Hell even in some cultures where female circumcision is practiced, it's the elder women who pin down the younger one to suffer ritualistic pain.  

    We are a culture where women can opt for a variety of hair, styles and clothing.   Some friends lasered themselves clean and I personally can't imagine looking like a small child however I don't want it sticking out of my underwear.  Others may opt for corsets, push up bras, thongs, or men's briefs.

    It's about understanding IMO that as long as it's your choice and no one else's it doesn't matter.
    We don't have a free choice though when one choice (not removing hair) is so intensely stigmatized and rendered culturally unacceptable. You do not ever see women in media with body hair. Even on post-apocalyptic shows like The Walking Dead where the men all have ratty beards, the women are still completely hairless. Razor commercials for women show a razor moving over an already bare leg - that's how unspeakable not removing your body hair is.
    This is a cultural phenomenon that affects all women and how we make our choices, whether we like it or not.
    When one choice involves harassment and abuse and the other is presented as the only acceptable way to exist, how can that be presented as a choice? When young women are just handed a razor when they hit puberty and expected to remove their body hair, almost before they have any?
    Women are not shown any way to grow up with their bodies in their natural state, and this cultural phenomenon requires critical analysis beyond "but I like it!" Of course most women are convinced they like it. We have never been given a real choice.

    Look - I get it.   We're told to do things a certain way.

    But FFS, there's a metric fuckton of pressure involved in raising a child.   I can tell you that if my own daughter wants to avoid shaving when the time comes that's her choice but I can't control what others do.   And while I'd love to yell and scream and police every child who rolls eyes in a middle school or high school setting the reality is that a lot of certain actions may also be advising you child to do something to protect them from the bullies.  

    And at this point, you're posting in a group of grown women who are aware that no one needs to tell them how to pluck eyebrows or shave their pits. 

    This is now needlessly criticizing those who opt to do something that may have roots in a male dominated choice but it's still something that I choose to do because *I* like it. 

    Get off the soapbox.   If you don't want to remove pit hair, facial hair or any body hair I don't care.   Stop condescending to the rest of us who make the choice to do it. 

    And here's the textbook defensiveness I was talking about.
    Look, I don't have the power to come into your house and take away your razor. Do whatever you like! But women should be allowed to talk about the ways that this practice is coercive and harmful.
    You enjoying shaving is going to be validated for you at every other possible turn. If you can't bear to read one woman's criticisms of hair removal, go outside! Or watch a movie or a tv show. Read a magazine. You'll get lots of validation for your socially-approved choice there.

    And you don't have to talk to me about changing behaviour to protect yourself from bullies. I was a visibly gay child in a rural conservative area in the 90s. You know what would have been helpful? Someone - literally anyone - saying "hey, it's messed up that you're being treated like that and there's nothing wrong with you. You don't have to do be who they want you to be".
    STARMOON44
  • *Barbie**Barbie* member
    Knottie Warrior 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited November 2017
    banana468 said:
    I think it's silly that supposedly we've never had a choice so we can know whether we like it or not. Every woman I know goes, literally, months in the winter without shaving. I've had hair on my legs as long as my husband's! (And guess what? My husband doesn't care if I shave or not!) I like the feeling of shaved better, but I dislike shaving so I only shave when I'm going to wear a skirt or shorts.

    I've gone weeks on trips where I haven't had access to a shower without shaving my pits. I like it better shaved. It does tend to be less smelly. My husband, who does not shave his pits, scrubs and scrubs his pits in the shower with very strong soap and had a very hard time getting rid of all of the smell. 
    While we're at it, the idea of not smelling is something that not all nations do.  And we thumb our nose at people who are actually clean because they don't mask their bodily odors.

    My mom tells the story that a friend from HS didn't realize that the workers from her country smelled until she returned home and got on the bus.   Then she realized it.  


    I don't give a damn if someone has body hair to rival Cousin It, as long as they don't stink. 

    ETA: this includes BO, and people who wear too much perfume/cologne. I'm an equal opportunity judger.
    southernbelle0915OliveOilsMomahoywedding
  • Knottienumbers- I will say I had never thought about the hairy men vs clean shaven women in movies. It's very interesting now that you mention it. 
    charlotte989875
  • banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I got laser about 8 years ago and it worked for a few months and then all grew back.
    I no longer bother removing my body hair. I have light skin and thick, dark hair that grows on my face, chest, and stomach, as well as on my legs. It is part of my body and I no longer worry about changing my body to conform to a male-defined expectation of female beauty.
    I found it very interesting and infuriating to learn about the history of women's hair removal in North America. It was practically non-existent until shaving companies needed a new market during WW1.
    I never once got mine done for a man or even thought I was doing it for that purpose.  I hated having chin hair.  Hated the feel.  The look.  Everything.  I doubt men even noticed. 
    Not saying you got yours done "for a man". I'm saying that the idea that women should not have facial hair is ahistorical and male-defined.
    It's like when women claim they're shaving their legs "because I like how smooth it feels!" but wouldn't even know what having smooth legs felt like if they hadn't removed it in the first place.

    Most of us who remove certain hair remember being old enough to know what it was like to have it come in.  Maybe you always had hair in the places it grows now but I didn't. 

    And I personally prefer to keep things trim in the same way that I see my hair stylist every 6 weeks.  No, I don't HAVE to cut my hair or style it but I prefer the way I look with styled hair, plucked eyebrows, no dark upper lip hair, shaved armpits and hair that doesn't peek out of my underwear.   I'll be honest that I shave my legs a heck of a lot less when it's colder but once it's warmer, I think they look and feel better when they're clean-shaven.   

    If you don't want to do those things then that's great.   I'll admit that in general I'm someone who conforms to a lot of societal norms.    At this point, I don't think you can call it solely male-defined expectations.   They may be of male origination but I think there's plenty of female expectations to change.  
    True, lots of women enforce male-created standards on other women as a way of maintaining their position in the status quo. You see that in a lot of the defensiveness - "I spend hours of time and lots of money doing painful things to modify my body because I like it!" in that. It's so strange. Women who are interested in performing femininity often get upset when anyone criticizes these traditions and their impact on women in even the mildest of terms. Funnily enough, it's only ever been men who have physically attacked me on the street for being an ugly, hairy, man-hating dyke.
    Women just find more creative ways to subtly call me that, I guess.
    I think you're onto something that SOME women can project a way of if you're not doing it their way you're wrong.   Hell even in some cultures where female circumcision is practiced, it's the elder women who pin down the younger one to suffer ritualistic pain.  

    We are a culture where women can opt for a variety of hair, styles and clothing.   Some friends lasered themselves clean and I personally can't imagine looking like a small child however I don't want it sticking out of my underwear.  Others may opt for corsets, push up bras, thongs, or men's briefs.

    It's about understanding IMO that as long as it's your choice and no one else's it doesn't matter.
    We don't have a free choice though when one choice (not removing hair) is so intensely stigmatized and rendered culturally unacceptable. You do not ever see women in media with body hair. Even on post-apocalyptic shows like The Walking Dead where the men all have ratty beards, the women are still completely hairless. Razor commercials for women show a razor moving over an already bare leg - that's how unspeakable not removing your body hair is.
    This is a cultural phenomenon that affects all women and how we make our choices, whether we like it or not.
    When one choice involves harassment and abuse and the other is presented as the only acceptable way to exist, how can that be presented as a choice? When young women are just handed a razor when they hit puberty and expected to remove their body hair, almost before they have any?
    Women are not shown any way to grow up with their bodies in their natural state, and this cultural phenomenon requires critical analysis beyond "but I like it!" Of course most women are convinced they like it. We have never been given a real choice.

    Look - I get it.   We're told to do things a certain way.

    But FFS, there's a metric fuckton of pressure involved in raising a child.   I can tell you that if my own daughter wants to avoid shaving when the time comes that's her choice but I can't control what others do.   And while I'd love to yell and scream and police every child who rolls eyes in a middle school or high school setting the reality is that a lot of certain actions may also be advising you child to do something to protect them from the bullies.  

    And at this point, you're posting in a group of grown women who are aware that no one needs to tell them how to pluck eyebrows or shave their pits. 

    This is now needlessly criticizing those who opt to do something that may have roots in a male dominated choice but it's still something that I choose to do because *I* like it. 

    Get off the soapbox.   If you don't want to remove pit hair, facial hair or any body hair I don't care.   Stop condescending to the rest of us who make the choice to do it. 

    And here's the textbook defensiveness I was talking about.
    Look, I don't have the power to come into your house and take away your razor. Do whatever you like! But women should be allowed to talk about the ways that this practice is coercive and harmful.
    You enjoying shaving is going to be validated for you at every other possible turn. If you can't bear to read one woman's criticisms of hair removal, go outside! Or watch a movie or a tv show. Read a magazine. You'll get lots of validation for your socially-approved choice there.

    And you don't have to talk to me about changing behaviour to protect yourself from bullies. I was a visibly gay child in a rural conservative area in the 90s. You know what would have been helpful? Someone - literally anyone - saying "hey, it's messed up that you're being treated like that and there's nothing wrong with you. You don't have to do be who they want you to be".
    So, I actually agree with you (and said as much above). Harassment of women, in all forms needs to be taken far more seriously than it is, and that includes harassment for not conforming to conventional beauty expectations. I wish that someone had stood up for you, and we all need to do that when we see harassment, bullying, discrimination. 

    I just disagree about the strategy here. I think working to change institutional structures, to engage more women in positions of power, and to work to stop sexism & misogyny in all forms is more effective at taking down these societal norms and expectations. I absolutely agree that should include a critical conversation analysis about why norms exist. But I also don't agree with telling women they're just convinced they have a choice and that they don't really like something or implying they're just duped into believing it's a choice. I'm not trying to police your tone here, I do think there is a different way to go about these critical conversations where you engage rather than criticize the people you want to hear you.  
    levioosa
  • banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I got laser about 8 years ago and it worked for a few months and then all grew back.
    I no longer bother removing my body hair. I have light skin and thick, dark hair that grows on my face, chest, and stomach, as well as on my legs. It is part of my body and I no longer worry about changing my body to conform to a male-defined expectation of female beauty.
    I found it very interesting and infuriating to learn about the history of women's hair removal in North America. It was practically non-existent until shaving companies needed a new market during WW1.

    Not saying you got yours done "for a man". I'm saying that the idea that women should not have facial hair is ahistorical and male-defined.
    It's like when women claim they're shaving their legs "because I like how smooth it feels!" but wouldn't even know what having smooth legs felt like if they hadn't removed it in the first place.


    True, lots of women enforce male-created standards on other women as a way of maintaining their position in the status quo. You see that in a lot of the defensiveness - "I spend hours of time and lots of money doing painful things to modify my body because I like it!" in that. It's so strange. Women who are interested in performing femininity often get upset when anyone criticizes these traditions and their impact on women in even the mildest of terms. Funnily enough, it's only ever been men who have physically attacked me on the street for being an ugly, hairy, man-hating dyke.
    Women just find more creative ways to subtly call me that, I guess.

    We don't have a free choice though when one choice (not removing hair) is so intensely stigmatized and rendered culturally unacceptable. You do not ever see women in media with body hair. Even on post-apocalyptic shows like The Walking Dead where the men all have ratty beards, the women are still completely hairless. Razor commercials for women show a razor moving over an already bare leg - that's how unspeakable not removing your body hair is.
    This is a cultural phenomenon that affects all women and how we make our choices, whether we like it or not.
    When one choice involves harassment and abuse and the other is presented as the only acceptable way to exist, how can that be presented as a choice? When young women are just handed a razor when they hit puberty and expected to remove their body hair, almost before they have any?
    Women are not shown any way to grow up with their bodies in their natural state, and this cultural phenomenon requires critical analysis beyond "but I like it!" Of course most women are convinced they like it. We have never been given a real choice.

    And here's the textbook defensiveness I was talking about.
    Look, I don't have the power to come into your house and take away your razor. Do whatever you like! But women should be allowed to talk about the ways that this practice is coercive and harmful.
    You enjoying shaving is going to be validated for you at every other possible turn. If you can't bear to read one woman's criticisms of hair removal, go outside! Or watch a movie or a tv show. Read a magazine. You'll get lots of validation for your socially-approved choice there.

    And you don't have to talk to me about changing behaviour to protect yourself from bullies. I was a visibly gay child in a rural conservative area in the 90s. You know what would have been helpful? Someone - literally anyone - saying "hey, it's messed up that you're being treated like that and there's nothing wrong with you. You don't have to do be who they want you to be".
    Kuus, is that you?

    On a serious note, shut up.  Seriously.  You came in here with a valid point which could have been a constructive talking point, but unfortunately you met a poster's "defensiveness" over what she perceives to be her choices or preferred conformity to societal norms/pressures (and for some the cause of insecurities) with your own antagonistic brow-beating position that we're all just hairless, brainless sheep trailing after a hair-covered man.  

    Calm your tits (in or out of the bra/shirt/societal fabric restricting device), know your audience, and try again with less tone.
    What a creative way to call me an angry, hairy, man-hating dyke!
     
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I tried to have a discussion about the ways that our society pressures women to remove their body hair and the ways that that had an impact on me personally. If you want to interpret that as an attack, you are welcome to do so, but you are projecting.

    I'm sorry that talking about cultural practices that are harmful to women makes you so uncomfortable, but I am not going to shut up about it.

    I also love the way that you're using sexually harassing language while telling me to mind my tone.
  • banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I got laser about 8 years ago and it worked for a few months and then all grew back.
    I no longer bother removing my body hair. I have light skin and thick, dark hair that grows on my face, chest, and stomach, as well as on my legs. It is part of my body and I no longer worry about changing my body to conform to a male-defined expectation of female beauty.
    I found it very interesting and infuriating to learn about the history of women's hair removal in North America. It was practically non-existent until shaving companies needed a new market during WW1.
    I never once got mine done for a man or even thought I was doing it for that purpose.  I hated having chin hair.  Hated the feel.  The look.  Everything.  I doubt men even noticed. 
    Not saying you got yours done "for a man". I'm saying that the idea that women should not have facial hair is ahistorical and male-defined.
    It's like when women claim they're shaving their legs "because I like how smooth it feels!" but wouldn't even know what having smooth legs felt like if they hadn't removed it in the first place.

    Most of us who remove certain hair remember being old enough to know what it was like to have it come in.  Maybe you always had hair in the places it grows now but I didn't. 

    And I personally prefer to keep things trim in the same way that I see my hair stylist every 6 weeks.  No, I don't HAVE to cut my hair or style it but I prefer the way I look with styled hair, plucked eyebrows, no dark upper lip hair, shaved armpits and hair that doesn't peek out of my underwear.   I'll be honest that I shave my legs a heck of a lot less when it's colder but once it's warmer, I think they look and feel better when they're clean-shaven.   

    If you don't want to do those things then that's great.   I'll admit that in general I'm someone who conforms to a lot of societal norms.    At this point, I don't think you can call it solely male-defined expectations.   They may be of male origination but I think there's plenty of female expectations to change.  
    True, lots of women enforce male-created standards on other women as a way of maintaining their position in the status quo. You see that in a lot of the defensiveness - "I spend hours of time and lots of money doing painful things to modify my body because I like it!" in that. It's so strange. Women who are interested in performing femininity often get upset when anyone criticizes these traditions and their impact on women in even the mildest of terms. Funnily enough, it's only ever been men who have physically attacked me on the street for being an ugly, hairy, man-hating dyke.
    Women just find more creative ways to subtly call me that, I guess.
    I think you're onto something that SOME women can project a way of if you're not doing it their way you're wrong.   Hell even in some cultures where female circumcision is practiced, it's the elder women who pin down the younger one to suffer ritualistic pain.  

    We are a culture where women can opt for a variety of hair, styles and clothing.   Some friends lasered themselves clean and I personally can't imagine looking like a small child however I don't want it sticking out of my underwear.  Others may opt for corsets, push up bras, thongs, or men's briefs.

    It's about understanding IMO that as long as it's your choice and no one else's it doesn't matter.
    We don't have a free choice though when one choice (not removing hair) is so intensely stigmatized and rendered culturally unacceptable. You do not ever see women in media with body hair. Even on post-apocalyptic shows like The Walking Dead where the men all have ratty beards, the women are still completely hairless. Razor commercials for women show a razor moving over an already bare leg - that's how unspeakable not removing your body hair is.
    This is a cultural phenomenon that affects all women and how we make our choices, whether we like it or not.
    When one choice involves harassment and abuse and the other is presented as the only acceptable way to exist, how can that be presented as a choice? When young women are just handed a razor when they hit puberty and expected to remove their body hair, almost before they have any?
    Women are not shown any way to grow up with their bodies in their natural state, and this cultural phenomenon requires critical analysis beyond "but I like it!" Of course most women are convinced they like it. We have never been given a real choice.

    Look - I get it.   We're told to do things a certain way.

    But FFS, there's a metric fuckton of pressure involved in raising a child.   I can tell you that if my own daughter wants to avoid shaving when the time comes that's her choice but I can't control what others do.   And while I'd love to yell and scream and police every child who rolls eyes in a middle school or high school setting the reality is that a lot of certain actions may also be advising you child to do something to protect them from the bullies.  

    And at this point, you're posting in a group of grown women who are aware that no one needs to tell them how to pluck eyebrows or shave their pits. 

    This is now needlessly criticizing those who opt to do something that may have roots in a male dominated choice but it's still something that I choose to do because *I* like it. 

    Get off the soapbox.   If you don't want to remove pit hair, facial hair or any body hair I don't care.   Stop condescending to the rest of us who make the choice to do it. 

    And here's the textbook defensiveness I was talking about.
    Look, I don't have the power to come into your house and take away your razor. Do whatever you like! But women should be allowed to talk about the ways that this practice is coercive and harmful.
    You enjoying shaving is going to be validated for you at every other possible turn. If you can't bear to read one woman's criticisms of hair removal, go outside! Or watch a movie or a tv show. Read a magazine. You'll get lots of validation for your socially-approved choice there.

    And you don't have to talk to me about changing behaviour to protect yourself from bullies. I was a visibly gay child in a rural conservative area in the 90s. You know what would have been helpful? Someone - literally anyone - saying "hey, it's messed up that you're being treated like that and there's nothing wrong with you. You don't have to do be who they want you to be".
    So, I actually agree with you (and said as much above). Harassment of women, in all forms needs to be taken far more seriously than it is, and that includes harassment for not conforming to conventional beauty expectations. I wish that someone had stood up for you, and we all need to do that when we see harassment, bullying, discrimination. 

    I just disagree about the strategy here. I think working to change institutional structures, to engage more women in positions of power, and to work to stop sexism & misogyny in all forms is more effective at taking down these societal norms and expectations. I absolutely agree that should include a critical conversation analysis about why norms exist. But I also don't agree with telling women they're just convinced they have a choice and that they don't really like something or implying they're just duped into believing it's a choice. I'm not trying to police your tone here, I do think there is a different way to go about these critical conversations where you engage rather than criticize the people you want to hear you.  
    I think you're misinterpreting my argument a bit. My point is that we don't know if we like it or not because it isn't a free choice. Maybe if shaving and not shaving were both completely neutral choices that had no bearing on how you were treated in society and were not groomed into us one way or another from early childhood, some women would still choose to remove their body hair. Maybe half of women would. Who knows?
    The point is that we will never get to that point in society if every time a woman brings up a critical discussion about the practice of shaving, everyone screams at her to shut up.
    STARMOON44

  • What a creative way to call me an angry, hairy, man-hating dyke!
     
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I tried to have a discussion about the ways that our society pressures women to remove their body hair and the ways that that had an impact on me personally. If you want to interpret that as an attack, you are welcome to do so, but you are projecting.

    I'm sorry that talking about cultural practices that are harmful to women makes you so uncomfortable, but I am not going to shut up about it.

    I also love the way that you're using sexually harassing language while telling me to mind my tone.


    SITB - now who is putting words in someone's mouth?
    knottie#s, the point about knowing your audience is completely valid here. you're the only one who has commented on your sexuality in this post. We have several regulars in this group who are LGBTQ+, and nobody has any issue with it. 
    You came into a board and went all "fem-Nazi"- while you are making a valid point, your tone was aggressive to the point where people felt they were being harassed and got defensive. Rather than starting a conversation, you started an argument. That's not productive. 
    kimmiinthemitten
  • *Barbie* said:

    What a creative way to call me an angry, hairy, man-hating dyke!
     
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I tried to have a discussion about the ways that our society pressures women to remove their body hair and the ways that that had an impact on me personally. If you want to interpret that as an attack, you are welcome to do so, but you are projecting.

    I'm sorry that talking about cultural practices that are harmful to women makes you so uncomfortable, but I am not going to shut up about it.

    I also love the way that you're using sexually harassing language while telling me to mind my tone.


    SITB - now who is putting words in someone's mouth?
    knottie#s, the point about knowing your audience is completely valid here. you're the only one who has commented on your sexuality in this post. We have several regulars in this group who are LGBTQ+, and nobody has any issue with it. 
    You came into a board and went all "fem-Nazi"- while you are making a valid point, your tone was aggressive to the point where people felt they were being harassed and got defensive. Rather than starting a conversation, you started an argument. That's not productive. 
    If you can't recognize the lesbophobic dogwhistles in that post, that's on you, not me. I've got a lifetime of recognizing them.

    Also, "fem-Nazi"? Really? Women talking about the ways that social expectations harm them is equivalent to committing mass genocide? Go back to 4chan.
  • *Barbie* said:

    What a creative way to call me an angry, hairy, man-hating dyke!
     
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I tried to have a discussion about the ways that our society pressures women to remove their body hair and the ways that that had an impact on me personally. If you want to interpret that as an attack, you are welcome to do so, but you are projecting.

    I'm sorry that talking about cultural practices that are harmful to women makes you so uncomfortable, but I am not going to shut up about it.

    I also love the way that you're using sexually harassing language while telling me to mind my tone.


    SITB - now who is putting words in someone's mouth?
    knottie#s, the point about knowing your audience is completely valid here. you're the only one who has commented on your sexuality in this post. We have several regulars in this group who are LGBTQ+, and nobody has any issue with it. 
    You came into a board and went all "fem-Nazi"- while you are making a valid point, your tone was aggressive to the point where people felt they were being harassed and got defensive. Rather than starting a conversation, you started an argument. That's not productive. 
    If you can't recognize the lesbophobic dogwhistles in that post, that's on you, not me. I've got a lifetime of recognizing them.

    Also, "fem-Nazi"? Really? Women talking about the ways that social expectations harm them is equivalent to committing mass genocide? Go back to 4chan.
    Dude. I 100% get what you are trying to say, and don’t disagree with you (in general, not this quoted part. I just did that out of habit). But you are going about this the wrong way. At no point in any of your posts have I felt like you wanted to “start a conversation”. You come off as aggressive and judgmental, it isn’t the topic that makes me uncomfortable, it is your preachy attitude. Conversations start by asking questions not by telling a group of grown women that they have never really made a free choice about their body. We have conversations on this board about all sorts of things, nothing is off limits, but you have to go about the right way and insulting everyone off the bat is not it.
    ILoveBeachMusicGBCKkimmiinthemittenahoywedding
  • *Barbie* said:

    What a creative way to call me an angry, hairy, man-hating dyke!
     
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I tried to have a discussion about the ways that our society pressures women to remove their body hair and the ways that that had an impact on me personally. If you want to interpret that as an attack, you are welcome to do so, but you are projecting.

    I'm sorry that talking about cultural practices that are harmful to women makes you so uncomfortable, but I am not going to shut up about it.

    I also love the way that you're using sexually harassing language while telling me to mind my tone.


    SITB - now who is putting words in someone's mouth?
    knottie#s, the point about knowing your audience is completely valid here. you're the only one who has commented on your sexuality in this post. We have several regulars in this group who are LGBTQ+, and nobody has any issue with it. 
    You came into a board and went all "fem-Nazi"- while you are making a valid point, your tone was aggressive to the point where people felt they were being harassed and got defensive. Rather than starting a conversation, you started an argument. That's not productive. 
    If you can't recognize the lesbophobic dogwhistles in that post, that's on you, not me. I've got a lifetime of recognizing them.

    Also, "fem-Nazi"? Really? Women talking about the ways that social expectations harm them is equivalent to committing mass genocide? Go back to 4chan.
    Dude. I 100% get what you are trying to say, and don’t disagree with you (in general, not this quoted part. I just did that out of habit). But you are going about this the wrong way. At no point in any of your posts have I felt like you wanted to “start a conversation”. You come off as aggressive and judgmental, it isn’t the topic that makes me uncomfortable, it is your preachy attitude. Conversations start by asking questions not by telling a group of grown women that they have never really made a free choice about their body. We have conversations on this board about all sorts of things, nothing is off limits, but you have to go about the right way and insulting everyone off the bat is not it.
    So you have lots to say about my tone and no comment whatsoever to the women who called me a Nazi and made sexually harassing comments about my body? Got it.

  • *Barbie* said:

    What a creative way to call me an angry, hairy, man-hating dyke!
     
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I tried to have a discussion about the ways that our society pressures women to remove their body hair and the ways that that had an impact on me personally. If you want to interpret that as an attack, you are welcome to do so, but you are projecting.

    I'm sorry that talking about cultural practices that are harmful to women makes you so uncomfortable, but I am not going to shut up about it.

    I also love the way that you're using sexually harassing language while telling me to mind my tone.


    SITB - now who is putting words in someone's mouth?
    knottie#s, the point about knowing your audience is completely valid here. you're the only one who has commented on your sexuality in this post. We have several regulars in this group who are LGBTQ+, and nobody has any issue with it. 
    You came into a board and went all "fem-Nazi"- while you are making a valid point, your tone was aggressive to the point where people felt they were being harassed and got defensive. Rather than starting a conversation, you started an argument. That's not productive. 
    If you can't recognize the lesbophobic dogwhistles in that post, that's on you, not me. I've got a lifetime of recognizing them.

    Also, "fem-Nazi"? Really? Women talking about the ways that social expectations harm them is equivalent to committing mass genocide? Go back to 4chan.
    Dude. I 100% get what you are trying to say, and don’t disagree with you (in general, not this quoted part. I just did that out of habit). But you are going about this the wrong way. At no point in any of your posts have I felt like you wanted to “start a conversation”. You come off as aggressive and judgmental, it isn’t the topic that makes me uncomfortable, it is your preachy attitude. Conversations start by asking questions not by telling a group of grown women that they have never really made a free choice about their body. We have conversations on this board about all sorts of things, nothing is off limits, but you have to go about the right way and insulting everyone off the bat is not it.
    So you have lots to say about my tone and no comment whatsoever to the women who called me a Nazi and made sexually harassing comments about my body? Got it.

    I am explaining why you are having *this* conversation instead of one about women’s body hair. I think you had good intentions but your delivery insulted people instead of creating an open dialogue. I am not bringing up the other things because they are off topic for the point I am trying to make.
    GBCK
  • banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I got laser about 8 years ago and it worked for a few months and then all grew back.
    I no longer bother removing my body hair. I have light skin and thick, dark hair that grows on my face, chest, and stomach, as well as on my legs. It is part of my body and I no longer worry about changing my body to conform to a male-defined expectation of female beauty.
    I found it very interesting and infuriating to learn about the history of women's hair removal in North America. It was practically non-existent until shaving companies needed a new market during WW1.
    I never once got mine done for a man or even thought I was doing it for that purpose.  I hated having chin hair.  Hated the feel.  The look.  Everything.  I doubt men even noticed. 
    Not saying you got yours done "for a man". I'm saying that the idea that women should not have facial hair is ahistorical and male-defined.
    It's like when women claim they're shaving their legs "because I like how smooth it feels!" but wouldn't even know what having smooth legs felt like if they hadn't removed it in the first place.

    Most of us who remove certain hair remember being old enough to know what it was like to have it come in.  Maybe you always had hair in the places it grows now but I didn't. 

    And I personally prefer to keep things trim in the same way that I see my hair stylist every 6 weeks.  No, I don't HAVE to cut my hair or style it but I prefer the way I look with styled hair, plucked eyebrows, no dark upper lip hair, shaved armpits and hair that doesn't peek out of my underwear.   I'll be honest that I shave my legs a heck of a lot less when it's colder but once it's warmer, I think they look and feel better when they're clean-shaven.   

    If you don't want to do those things then that's great.   I'll admit that in general I'm someone who conforms to a lot of societal norms.    At this point, I don't think you can call it solely male-defined expectations.   They may be of male origination but I think there's plenty of female expectations to change.  
    True, lots of women enforce male-created standards on other women as a way of maintaining their position in the status quo. You see that in a lot of the defensiveness - "I spend hours of time and lots of money doing painful things to modify my body because I like it!" in that. It's so strange. Women who are interested in performing femininity often get upset when anyone criticizes these traditions and their impact on women in even the mildest of terms. Funnily enough, it's only ever been men who have physically attacked me on the street for being an ugly, hairy, man-hating dyke.
    Women just find more creative ways to subtly call me that, I guess.
    I think you're onto something that SOME women can project a way of if you're not doing it their way you're wrong.   Hell even in some cultures where female circumcision is practiced, it's the elder women who pin down the younger one to suffer ritualistic pain.  

    We are a culture where women can opt for a variety of hair, styles and clothing.   Some friends lasered themselves clean and I personally can't imagine looking like a small child however I don't want it sticking out of my underwear.  Others may opt for corsets, push up bras, thongs, or men's briefs.

    It's about understanding IMO that as long as it's your choice and no one else's it doesn't matter.
    We don't have a free choice though when one choice (not removing hair) is so intensely stigmatized and rendered culturally unacceptable. You do not ever see women in media with body hair. Even on post-apocalyptic shows like The Walking Dead where the men all have ratty beards, the women are still completely hairless. Razor commercials for women show a razor moving over an already bare leg - that's how unspeakable not removing your body hair is.
    This is a cultural phenomenon that affects all women and how we make our choices, whether we like it or not.
    When one choice involves harassment and abuse and the other is presented as the only acceptable way to exist, how can that be presented as a choice? When young women are just handed a razor when they hit puberty and expected to remove their body hair, almost before they have any?
    Women are not shown any way to grow up with their bodies in their natural state, and this cultural phenomenon requires critical analysis beyond "but I like it!" Of course most women are convinced they like it. We have never been given a real choice.

    Look - I get it.   We're told to do things a certain way.

    But FFS, there's a metric fuckton of pressure involved in raising a child.   I can tell you that if my own daughter wants to avoid shaving when the time comes that's her choice but I can't control what others do.   And while I'd love to yell and scream and police every child who rolls eyes in a middle school or high school setting the reality is that a lot of certain actions may also be advising you child to do something to protect them from the bullies.  

    And at this point, you're posting in a group of grown women who are aware that no one needs to tell them how to pluck eyebrows or shave their pits. 

    This is now needlessly criticizing those who opt to do something that may have roots in a male dominated choice but it's still something that I choose to do because *I* like it. 

    Get off the soapbox.   If you don't want to remove pit hair, facial hair or any body hair I don't care.   Stop condescending to the rest of us who make the choice to do it. 

    And here's the textbook defensiveness I was talking about.
    Look, I don't have the power to come into your house and take away your razor. Do whatever you like! But women should be allowed to talk about the ways that this practice is coercive and harmful.
    You enjoying shaving is going to be validated for you at every other possible turn. If you can't bear to read one woman's criticisms of hair removal, go outside! Or watch a movie or a tv show. Read a magazine. You'll get lots of validation for your socially-approved choice there.

    And you don't have to talk to me about changing behaviour to protect yourself from bullies. I was a visibly gay child in a rural conservative area in the 90s. You know what would have been helpful? Someone - literally anyone - saying "hey, it's messed up that you're being treated like that and there's nothing wrong with you. You don't have to do be who they want you to be".
    So, I actually agree with you (and said as much above). Harassment of women, in all forms needs to be taken far more seriously than it is, and that includes harassment for not conforming to conventional beauty expectations. I wish that someone had stood up for you, and we all need to do that when we see harassment, bullying, discrimination. 

    I just disagree about the strategy here. I think working to change institutional structures, to engage more women in positions of power, and to work to stop sexism & misogyny in all forms is more effective at taking down these societal norms and expectations. I absolutely agree that should include a critical conversation analysis about why norms exist. But I also don't agree with telling women they're just convinced they have a choice and that they don't really like something or implying they're just duped into believing it's a choice. I'm not trying to police your tone here, I do think there is a different way to go about these critical conversations where you engage rather than criticize the people you want to hear you.  
    I think you're misinterpreting my argument a bit. My point is that we don't know if we like it or not because it isn't a free choice. Maybe if shaving and not shaving were both completely neutral choices that had no bearing on how you were treated in society and were not groomed into us one way or another from early childhood, some women would still choose to remove their body hair. Maybe half of women would. Who knows?
    The point is that we will never get to that point in society if every time a woman brings up a critical discussion about the practice of shaving, everyone screams at her to shut up.
    I don’t misunderstand what you’re saying. I agree with what you’re saying, and I didn’t once tell you to shut up. I agreed we should be having critical conversations about this. I think women should get to do whatever they want with their bodies without fear of harassment and judgement. And I agree that’s not what happens re: shaving. 

    But again I disagree with your assumption that no one had has these critical thoughts/conversations and still decides to shave/conform to conventional beauty standards. You’re still assuming everyone has internalized sexism and misogyny to such an extent that they truly can’t make a choice because there never is a choice. And maybe that is true for the majority of people. But When you confront someone with a question, thought, argument that runs contrary to their practices and accepted behavior the most effective way to persuade them is not to put people in a position where they feel they have to defend their beliefs/practices because it leads to further retrenchment. 
    sparklepants41ei34southernbelle0915ahoywedding
  • *Barbie* said:

    What a creative way to call me an angry, hairy, man-hating dyke!
     
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I tried to have a discussion about the ways that our society pressures women to remove their body hair and the ways that that had an impact on me personally. If you want to interpret that as an attack, you are welcome to do so, but you are projecting.

    I'm sorry that talking about cultural practices that are harmful to women makes you so uncomfortable, but I am not going to shut up about it.

    I also love the way that you're using sexually harassing language while telling me to mind my tone.


    SITB - now who is putting words in someone's mouth?
    knottie#s, the point about knowing your audience is completely valid here. you're the only one who has commented on your sexuality in this post. We have several regulars in this group who are LGBTQ+, and nobody has any issue with it. 
    You came into a board and went all "fem-Nazi"- while you are making a valid point, your tone was aggressive to the point where people felt they were being harassed and got defensive. Rather than starting a conversation, you started an argument. That's not productive. 
    If you can't recognize the lesbophobic dogwhistles in that post, that's on you, not me. I've got a lifetime of recognizing them.

    Also, "fem-Nazi"? Really? Women talking about the ways that social expectations harm them is equivalent to committing mass genocide? Go back to 4chan.
    Dude. I 100% get what you are trying to say, and don’t disagree with you (in general, not this quoted part. I just did that out of habit). But you are going about this the wrong way. At no point in any of your posts have I felt like you wanted to “start a conversation”. You come off as aggressive and judgmental, it isn’t the topic that makes me uncomfortable, it is your preachy attitude. Conversations start by asking questions not by telling a group of grown women that they have never really made a free choice about their body. We have conversations on this board about all sorts of things, nothing is off limits, but you have to go about the right way and insulting everyone off the bat is not it.
    So you have lots to say about my tone and no comment whatsoever to the women who called me a Nazi and made sexually harassing comments about my body? Got it.

    I am explaining why you are having *this* conversation instead of one about women’s body hair. I think you had good intentions but your delivery insulted people instead of creating an open dialogue. I am not bringing up the other things because they are off topic for the point I am trying to make.
    I think you're missing the point. Out of everything that's been said, you've chosen to lecture me about my tone in a condescending manner while completely ignoring the women who have made sexually harassing comments to me and called me a Nazi. Evidently they are less worthy of being chastised than I am.

    It's so interesting on this website - I can't count the number of times that I've seen someone get upset about a snarky tone, only to be told "you can't choose how someone responds to you! TK is a place where people are direct and tell it like it is, not what you want to hear". Guess that doesn't apply to women's social issues.

    You might want to reread my posts. I never said many of the things that you're accusing me of, nor did I insult anyone, despite again, being sexually harassed and called a Nazi.
  • banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I got laser about 8 years ago and it worked for a few months and then all grew back.
    I no longer bother removing my body hair. I have light skin and thick, dark hair that grows on my face, chest, and stomach, as well as on my legs. It is part of my body and I no longer worry about changing my body to conform to a male-defined expectation of female beauty.
    I found it very interesting and infuriating to learn about the history of women's hair removal in North America. It was practically non-existent until shaving companies needed a new market during WW1.
    I never once got mine done for a man or even thought I was doing it for that purpose.  I hated having chin hair.  Hated the feel.  The look.  Everything.  I doubt men even noticed. 
    Not saying you got yours done "for a man". I'm saying that the idea that women should not have facial hair is ahistorical and male-defined.
    It's like when women claim they're shaving their legs "because I like how smooth it feels!" but wouldn't even know what having smooth legs felt like if they hadn't removed it in the first place.

    Most of us who remove certain hair remember being old enough to know what it was like to have it come in.  Maybe you always had hair in the places it grows now but I didn't. 

    And I personally prefer to keep things trim in the same way that I see my hair stylist every 6 weeks.  No, I don't HAVE to cut my hair or style it but I prefer the way I look with styled hair, plucked eyebrows, no dark upper lip hair, shaved armpits and hair that doesn't peek out of my underwear.   I'll be honest that I shave my legs a heck of a lot less when it's colder but once it's warmer, I think they look and feel better when they're clean-shaven.   

    If you don't want to do those things then that's great.   I'll admit that in general I'm someone who conforms to a lot of societal norms.    At this point, I don't think you can call it solely male-defined expectations.   They may be of male origination but I think there's plenty of female expectations to change.  
    True, lots of women enforce male-created standards on other women as a way of maintaining their position in the status quo. You see that in a lot of the defensiveness - "I spend hours of time and lots of money doing painful things to modify my body because I like it!" in that. It's so strange. Women who are interested in performing femininity often get upset when anyone criticizes these traditions and their impact on women in even the mildest of terms. Funnily enough, it's only ever been men who have physically attacked me on the street for being an ugly, hairy, man-hating dyke.
    Women just find more creative ways to subtly call me that, I guess.
    I think you're onto something that SOME women can project a way of if you're not doing it their way you're wrong.   Hell even in some cultures where female circumcision is practiced, it's the elder women who pin down the younger one to suffer ritualistic pain.  

    We are a culture where women can opt for a variety of hair, styles and clothing.   Some friends lasered themselves clean and I personally can't imagine looking like a small child however I don't want it sticking out of my underwear.  Others may opt for corsets, push up bras, thongs, or men's briefs.

    It's about understanding IMO that as long as it's your choice and no one else's it doesn't matter.
    We don't have a free choice though when one choice (not removing hair) is so intensely stigmatized and rendered culturally unacceptable. You do not ever see women in media with body hair. Even on post-apocalyptic shows like The Walking Dead where the men all have ratty beards, the women are still completely hairless. Razor commercials for women show a razor moving over an already bare leg - that's how unspeakable not removing your body hair is.
    This is a cultural phenomenon that affects all women and how we make our choices, whether we like it or not.
    When one choice involves harassment and abuse and the other is presented as the only acceptable way to exist, how can that be presented as a choice? When young women are just handed a razor when they hit puberty and expected to remove their body hair, almost before they have any?
    Women are not shown any way to grow up with their bodies in their natural state, and this cultural phenomenon requires critical analysis beyond "but I like it!" Of course most women are convinced they like it. We have never been given a real choice.

    Look - I get it.   We're told to do things a certain way.

    But FFS, there's a metric fuckton of pressure involved in raising a child.   I can tell you that if my own daughter wants to avoid shaving when the time comes that's her choice but I can't control what others do.   And while I'd love to yell and scream and police every child who rolls eyes in a middle school or high school setting the reality is that a lot of certain actions may also be advising you child to do something to protect them from the bullies.  

    And at this point, you're posting in a group of grown women who are aware that no one needs to tell them how to pluck eyebrows or shave their pits. 

    This is now needlessly criticizing those who opt to do something that may have roots in a male dominated choice but it's still something that I choose to do because *I* like it. 

    Get off the soapbox.   If you don't want to remove pit hair, facial hair or any body hair I don't care.   Stop condescending to the rest of us who make the choice to do it. 

    And here's the textbook defensiveness I was talking about.
    Look, I don't have the power to come into your house and take away your razor. Do whatever you like! But women should be allowed to talk about the ways that this practice is coercive and harmful.
    You enjoying shaving is going to be validated for you at every other possible turn. If you can't bear to read one woman's criticisms of hair removal, go outside! Or watch a movie or a tv show. Read a magazine. You'll get lots of validation for your socially-approved choice there.

    And you don't have to talk to me about changing behaviour to protect yourself from bullies. I was a visibly gay child in a rural conservative area in the 90s. You know what would have been helpful? Someone - literally anyone - saying "hey, it's messed up that you're being treated like that and there's nothing wrong with you. You don't have to do be who they want you to be".
    So, I actually agree with you (and said as much above). Harassment of women, in all forms needs to be taken far more seriously than it is, and that includes harassment for not conforming to conventional beauty expectations. I wish that someone had stood up for you, and we all need to do that when we see harassment, bullying, discrimination. 

    I just disagree about the strategy here. I think working to change institutional structures, to engage more women in positions of power, and to work to stop sexism & misogyny in all forms is more effective at taking down these societal norms and expectations. I absolutely agree that should include a critical conversation analysis about why norms exist. But I also don't agree with telling women they're just convinced they have a choice and that they don't really like something or implying they're just duped into believing it's a choice. I'm not trying to police your tone here, I do think there is a different way to go about these critical conversations where you engage rather than criticize the people you want to hear you.  
    I think you're misinterpreting my argument a bit. My point is that we don't know if we like it or not because it isn't a free choice. Maybe if shaving and not shaving were both completely neutral choices that had no bearing on how you were treated in society and were not groomed into us one way or another from early childhood, some women would still choose to remove their body hair. Maybe half of women would. Who knows?
    The point is that we will never get to that point in society if every time a woman brings up a critical discussion about the practice of shaving, everyone screams at her to shut up.
    I don’t misunderstand what you’re saying. I agree with what you’re saying, and I didn’t once tell you to shut up. I agreed we should be having critical conversations about this. I think women should get to do whatever they want with their bodies without fear of harassment and judgement. And I agree that’s not what happens re: shaving. 

    But again I disagree with your assumption that no one had has these critical thoughts/conversations and still decides to shave/conform to conventional beauty standards. You’re still assuming everyone has internalized sexism and misogyny to such an extent that they truly can’t make a choice because there never is a choice. And maybe that is true for the majority of people. But When you confront someone with a question, thought, argument that runs contrary to their practices and accepted behavior the most effective way to persuade them is not to put people in a position where they feel they have to defend their beliefs/practices because it leads to further retrenchment. 
    I can't control other people's defensive reactions to my posts, and my comment about being told to shut up was in reference to an earlier post where someone did indeed do that. But perhaps you were too busy lecturing me about my tone to notice some actual rudeness occurring. I insulted no one. I called no one names. I think that my level of snark was in keeping with the general level on this message board.
    Again, do you also take offense to the posters who called me a Nazi, told me to shut up, and sexually harassed me? Or just my overuse of snark?

    And you've again misinterpreted my post. I didn't say that there never is a choice. The choice is not real or free because of the enormous amount of stigma involved in one of those choices. Lots of women know that they don't like shaving and choose to do so anyway because of economic and social pressure. Those women are making a choice under those circumstances. We don't know how many women would choose not to shave if it were a free choice - evident by the posters who simultaneously claim "I do it because I like it" and "I don't shave in the winter" (when no one can see).

  • *Barbie* said:

    What a creative way to call me an angry, hairy, man-hating dyke!
     
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I tried to have a discussion about the ways that our society pressures women to remove their body hair and the ways that that had an impact on me personally. If you want to interpret that as an attack, you are welcome to do so, but you are projecting.

    I'm sorry that talking about cultural practices that are harmful to women makes you so uncomfortable, but I am not going to shut up about it.

    I also love the way that you're using sexually harassing language while telling me to mind my tone.


    SITB - now who is putting words in someone's mouth?
    knottie#s, the point about knowing your audience is completely valid here. you're the only one who has commented on your sexuality in this post. We have several regulars in this group who are LGBTQ+, and nobody has any issue with it. 
    You came into a board and went all "fem-Nazi"- while you are making a valid point, your tone was aggressive to the point where people felt they were being harassed and got defensive. Rather than starting a conversation, you started an argument. That's not productive. 
    If you can't recognize the lesbophobic dogwhistles in that post, that's on you, not me. I've got a lifetime of recognizing them.

    Also, "fem-Nazi"? Really? Women talking about the ways that social expectations harm them is equivalent to committing mass genocide? Go back to 4chan.
    Dude. I 100% get what you are trying to say, and don’t disagree with you (in general, not this quoted part. I just did that out of habit). But you are going about this the wrong way. At no point in any of your posts have I felt like you wanted to “start a conversation”. You come off as aggressive and judgmental, it isn’t the topic that makes me uncomfortable, it is your preachy attitude. Conversations start by asking questions not by telling a group of grown women that they have never really made a free choice about their body. We have conversations on this board about all sorts of things, nothing is off limits, but you have to go about the right way and insulting everyone off the bat is not it.
    So you have lots to say about my tone and no comment whatsoever to the women who called me a Nazi and made sexually harassing comments about my body? Got it.

    I am explaining why you are having *this* conversation instead of one about women’s body hair. I think you had good intentions but your delivery insulted people instead of creating an open dialogue. I am not bringing up the other things because they are off topic for the point I am trying to make.
    I think you're missing the point. Out of everything that's been said, you've chosen to lecture me about my tone in a condescending manner while completely ignoring the women who have made sexually harassing comments to me and called me a Nazi. Evidently they are less worthy of being chastised than I am.

    It's so interesting on this website - I can't count the number of times that I've seen someone get upset about a snarky tone, only to be told "you can't choose how someone responds to you! TK is a place where people are direct and tell it like it is, not what you want to hear". Guess that doesn't apply to women's social issues.

    You might want to reread my posts. I never said many of the things that you're accusing me of, nor did I insult anyone, despite again, being sexually harassed and called a Nazi.
    I am not missing  your point, I am making my own. I am not lecturing you, I am explaining my own, personal reaction to your post. Which came off as insulting, judgemental, and aggressive, to me. So don’t tell me you never said things that made me feel this way, because they did. Also, I never read anywhere that you were sexually harassed so idk where you are pulling that from. 

    What I am trying to get across to you, is that if you have been less confrontational from the beginning maybe you wouldn’t have been called the horrible, nasty term that I abhor. @*barbie was wrong, imo, to say that but I know, from repeated interaction, that she is a reasonable, kind person. She fucked up this time but it is out of character for her. I don’t know you, I can’t tell if this is normal behavior for you or not. So again, my advice to you is to be less accusatory when bring up a topic you want to open for discussion and people might actually want to
  • banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I got laser about 8 years ago and it worked for a few months and then all grew back.
    I no longer bother removing my body hair. I have light skin and thick, dark hair that grows on my face, chest, and stomach, as well as on my legs. It is part of my body and I no longer worry about changing my body to conform to a male-defined expectation of female beauty.
    I found it very interesting and infuriating to learn about the history of women's hair removal in North America. It was practically non-existent until shaving companies needed a new market during WW1.
    I never once got mine done for a man or even thought I was doing it for that purpose.  I hated having chin hair.  Hated the feel.  The look.  Everything.  I doubt men even noticed. 
    Not saying you got yours done "for a man". I'm saying that the idea that women should not have facial hair is ahistorical and male-defined.
    It's like when women claim they're shaving their legs "because I like how smooth it feels!" but wouldn't even know what having smooth legs felt like if they hadn't removed it in the first place.

    Most of us who remove certain hair remember being old enough to know what it was like to have it come in.  Maybe you always had hair in the places it grows now but I didn't. 

    And I personally prefer to keep things trim in the same way that I see my hair stylist every 6 weeks.  No, I don't HAVE to cut my hair or style it but I prefer the way I look with styled hair, plucked eyebrows, no dark upper lip hair, shaved armpits and hair that doesn't peek out of my underwear.   I'll be honest that I shave my legs a heck of a lot less when it's colder but once it's warmer, I think they look and feel better when they're clean-shaven.   

    If you don't want to do those things then that's great.   I'll admit that in general I'm someone who conforms to a lot of societal norms.    At this point, I don't think you can call it solely male-defined expectations.   They may be of male origination but I think there's plenty of female expectations to change.  
    True, lots of women enforce male-created standards on other women as a way of maintaining their position in the status quo. You see that in a lot of the defensiveness - "I spend hours of time and lots of money doing painful things to modify my body because I like it!" in that. It's so strange. Women who are interested in performing femininity often get upset when anyone criticizes these traditions and their impact on women in even the mildest of terms. Funnily enough, it's only ever been men who have physically attacked me on the street for being an ugly, hairy, man-hating dyke.
    Women just find more creative ways to subtly call me that, I guess.
    I think you're onto something that SOME women can project a way of if you're not doing it their way you're wrong.   Hell even in some cultures where female circumcision is practiced, it's the elder women who pin down the younger one to suffer ritualistic pain.  

    We are a culture where women can opt for a variety of hair, styles and clothing.   Some friends lasered themselves clean and I personally can't imagine looking like a small child however I don't want it sticking out of my underwear.  Others may opt for corsets, push up bras, thongs, or men's briefs.

    It's about understanding IMO that as long as it's your choice and no one else's it doesn't matter.
    We don't have a free choice though when one choice (not removing hair) is so intensely stigmatized and rendered culturally unacceptable. You do not ever see women in media with body hair. Even on post-apocalyptic shows like The Walking Dead where the men all have ratty beards, the women are still completely hairless. Razor commercials for women show a razor moving over an already bare leg - that's how unspeakable not removing your body hair is.
    This is a cultural phenomenon that affects all women and how we make our choices, whether we like it or not.
    When one choice involves harassment and abuse and the other is presented as the only acceptable way to exist, how can that be presented as a choice? When young women are just handed a razor when they hit puberty and expected to remove their body hair, almost before they have any?
    Women are not shown any way to grow up with their bodies in their natural state, and this cultural phenomenon requires critical analysis beyond "but I like it!" Of course most women are convinced they like it. We have never been given a real choice.

    Look - I get it.   We're told to do things a certain way.

    But FFS, there's a metric fuckton of pressure involved in raising a child.   I can tell you that if my own daughter wants to avoid shaving when the time comes that's her choice but I can't control what others do.   And while I'd love to yell and scream and police every child who rolls eyes in a middle school or high school setting the reality is that a lot of certain actions may also be advising you child to do something to protect them from the bullies.  

    And at this point, you're posting in a group of grown women who are aware that no one needs to tell them how to pluck eyebrows or shave their pits. 

    This is now needlessly criticizing those who opt to do something that may have roots in a male dominated choice but it's still something that I choose to do because *I* like it. 

    Get off the soapbox.   If you don't want to remove pit hair, facial hair or any body hair I don't care.   Stop condescending to the rest of us who make the choice to do it. 

    And here's the textbook defensiveness I was talking about.
    Look, I don't have the power to come into your house and take away your razor. Do whatever you like! But women should be allowed to talk about the ways that this practice is coercive and harmful.
    You enjoying shaving is going to be validated for you at every other possible turn. If you can't bear to read one woman's criticisms of hair removal, go outside! Or watch a movie or a tv show. Read a magazine. You'll get lots of validation for your socially-approved choice there.

    And you don't have to talk to me about changing behaviour to protect yourself from bullies. I was a visibly gay child in a rural conservative area in the 90s. You know what would have been helpful? Someone - literally anyone - saying "hey, it's messed up that you're being treated like that and there's nothing wrong with you. You don't have to do be who they want you to be".
    So, I actually agree with you (and said as much above). Harassment of women, in all forms needs to be taken far more seriously than it is, and that includes harassment for not conforming to conventional beauty expectations. I wish that someone had stood up for you, and we all need to do that when we see harassment, bullying, discrimination. 

    I just disagree about the strategy here. I think working to change institutional structures, to engage more women in positions of power, and to work to stop sexism & misogyny in all forms is more effective at taking down these societal norms and expectations. I absolutely agree that should include a critical conversation analysis about why norms exist. But I also don't agree with telling women they're just convinced they have a choice and that they don't really like something or implying they're just duped into believing it's a choice. I'm not trying to police your tone here, I do think there is a different way to go about these critical conversations where you engage rather than criticize the people you want to hear you.  
    I think you're misinterpreting my argument a bit. My point is that we don't know if we like it or not because it isn't a free choice. Maybe if shaving and not shaving were both completely neutral choices that had no bearing on how you were treated in society and were not groomed into us one way or another from early childhood, some women would still choose to remove their body hair. Maybe half of women would. Who knows?
    The point is that we will never get to that point in society if every time a woman brings up a critical discussion about the practice of shaving, everyone screams at her to shut up.
    I don’t misunderstand what you’re saying. I agree with what you’re saying, and I didn’t once tell you to shut up. I agreed we should be having critical conversations about this. I think women should get to do whatever they want with their bodies without fear of harassment and judgement. And I agree that’s not what happens re: shaving. 

    But again I disagree with your assumption that no one had has these critical thoughts/conversations and still decides to shave/conform to conventional beauty standards. You’re still assuming everyone has internalized sexism and misogyny to such an extent that they truly can’t make a choice because there never is a choice. And maybe that is true for the majority of people. But When you confront someone with a question, thought, argument that runs contrary to their practices and accepted behavior the most effective way to persuade them is not to put people in a position where they feel they have to defend their beliefs/practices because it leads to further retrenchment. 
    I can't control other people's defensive reactions to my posts, and my comment about being told to shut up was in reference to an earlier post where someone did indeed do that. But perhaps you were too busy lecturing me about my tone to notice some actual rudeness occurring. I insulted no one. I called no one names. I think that my level of snark was in keeping with the general level on this message board.
    Again, do you also take offense to the posters who called me a Nazi, told me to shut up, and sexually harassed me? Or just my overuse of snark?

    And you've again misinterpreted my post. I didn't say that there never is a choice. The choice is not real or free because of the enormous amount of stigma involved in one of those choices. Lots of women know that they don't like shaving and choose to do so anyway because of economic and social pressure. Those women are making a choice under those circumstances. We don't know how many women would choose not to shave if it were a free choice - evident by the posters who simultaneously claim "I do it because I like it" and "I don't shave in the winter" (when no one can see).

    No I’m pretty sure you’re just here to argue which is unfortunate because I repeatedly said I agreed with you and that this could be an interesting conversation. I also said in a post what you were called was wrong, so maybe you missed that?

    And again, I don’t misunderstand what you’re saying, I just disagree. 
    kimmiinthemittenahoywedding
  • All name calling aside, why is someone - who likely doesn't visit this board - coming here, not introducing themself and throwing their opinion around when someone asked a simple friggen question?
    sparklepants41ei34OliveOilsMom
  • *Barbie* said:

    What a creative way to call me an angry, hairy, man-hating dyke!
     
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I tried to have a discussion about the ways that our society pressures women to remove their body hair and the ways that that had an impact on me personally. If you want to interpret that as an attack, you are welcome to do so, but you are projecting.

    I'm sorry that talking about cultural practices that are harmful to women makes you so uncomfortable, but I am not going to shut up about it.

    I also love the way that you're using sexually harassing language while telling me to mind my tone.


    SITB - now who is putting words in someone's mouth?
    knottie#s, the point about knowing your audience is completely valid here. you're the only one who has commented on your sexuality in this post. We have several regulars in this group who are LGBTQ+, and nobody has any issue with it. 
    You came into a board and went all "fem-Nazi"- while you are making a valid point, your tone was aggressive to the point where people felt they were being harassed and got defensive. Rather than starting a conversation, you started an argument. That's not productive. 
    If you can't recognize the lesbophobic dogwhistles in that post, that's on you, not me. I've got a lifetime of recognizing them.

    Also, "fem-Nazi"? Really? Women talking about the ways that social expectations harm them is equivalent to committing mass genocide? Go back to 4chan.
    Dude. I 100% get what you are trying to say, and don’t disagree with you (in general, not this quoted part. I just did that out of habit). But you are going about this the wrong way. At no point in any of your posts have I felt like you wanted to “start a conversation”. You come off as aggressive and judgmental, it isn’t the topic that makes me uncomfortable, it is your preachy attitude. Conversations start by asking questions not by telling a group of grown women that they have never really made a free choice about their body. We have conversations on this board about all sorts of things, nothing is off limits, but you have to go about the right way and insulting everyone off the bat is not it.
    So you have lots to say about my tone and no comment whatsoever to the women who called me a Nazi and made sexually harassing comments about my body? Got it.

    I am explaining why you are having *this* conversation instead of one about women’s body hair. I think you had good intentions but your delivery insulted people instead of creating an open dialogue. I am not bringing up the other things because they are off topic for the point I am trying to make.
    I think you're missing the point. Out of everything that's been said, you've chosen to lecture me about my tone in a condescending manner while completely ignoring the women who have made sexually harassing comments to me and called me a Nazi. Evidently they are less worthy of being chastised than I am.

    It's so interesting on this website - I can't count the number of times that I've seen someone get upset about a snarky tone, only to be told "you can't choose how someone responds to you! TK is a place where people are direct and tell it like it is, not what you want to hear". Guess that doesn't apply to women's social issues.

    You might want to reread my posts. I never said many of the things that you're accusing me of, nor did I insult anyone, despite again, being sexually harassed and called a Nazi.
    I am not missing  your point, I am making my own. I am not lecturing you, I am explaining my own, personal reaction to your post. Which came off as insulting, judgemental, and aggressive, to me. So don’t tell me you never said things that made me feel this way, because they did. Also, I never read anywhere that you were sexually harassed so idk where you are pulling that from. 

    What I am trying to get across to you, is that if you have been less confrontational from the beginning maybe you wouldn’t have been called the horrible, nasty term that I abhor. @*barbie was wrong, imo, to say that but I know, from repeated interaction, that she is a reasonable, kind person. She fucked up this time but it is out of character for her. I don’t know you, I can’t tell if this is normal behavior for you or not. So again, my advice to you is to be less accusatory when bring up a topic you want to open for discussion and people might actually want to
    Ah, so now it's my fault for being called a Nazi. I was asking for it. I see. That rhetoric remind you of anything?

    I'm sorry that you are having a strong personal reaction to my posts. Can you be more specific about what you found offensive?

     I went back and reread every single post I made in this thread and at no time did I call anyone names or raise my tone about mild snark, even after having been directly told to shut up and accused of being someone I'm not familiar with. Again, I've been lurking on this website for quite some time and have seen people be much more aggressive and be applauded for it. I guess that doesn't apply to discussions about women's social issues, only to when someone is using the incorrect formatting for their wedding invitations or something.

    So if someone in my workplace were to tell me to "calm my tits", you wouldn't consider that sexual harassment?
  • edited November 2017
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    I got laser about 8 years ago and it worked for a few months and then all grew back.
    I no longer bother removing my body hair. I have light skin and thick, dark hair that grows on my face, chest, and stomach, as well as on my legs. It is part of my body and I no longer worry about changing my body to conform to a male-defined expectation of female beauty.
    I found it very interesting and infuriating to learn about the history of women's hair removal in North America. It was practically non-existent until shaving companies needed a new market during WW1.
    I never once got mine done for a man or even thought I was doing it for that purpose.  I hated having chin hair.  Hated the feel.  The look.  Everything.  I doubt men even noticed. 
    Not saying you got yours done "for a man". I'm saying that the idea that women should not have facial hair is ahistorical and male-defined.
    It's like when women claim they're shaving their legs "because I like how smooth it feels!" but wouldn't even know what having smooth legs felt like if they hadn't removed it in the first place.

    Most of us who remove certain hair remember being old enough to know what it was like to have it come in.  Maybe you always had hair in the places it grows now but I didn't. 

    And I personally prefer to keep things trim in the same way that I see my hair stylist every 6 weeks.  No, I don't HAVE to cut my hair or style it but I prefer the way I look with styled hair, plucked eyebrows, no dark upper lip hair, shaved armpits and hair that doesn't peek out of my underwear.   I'll be honest that I shave my legs a heck of a lot less when it's colder but once it's warmer, I think they look and feel better when they're clean-shaven.   

    If you don't want to do those things then that's great.   I'll admit that in general I'm someone who conforms to a lot of societal norms.    At this point, I don't think you can call it solely male-defined expectations.   They may be of male origination but I think there's plenty of female expectations to change.  
    True, lots of women enforce male-created standards on other women as a way of maintaining their position in the status quo. You see that in a lot of the defensiveness - "I spend hours of time and lots of money doing painful things to modify my body because I like it!" in that. It's so strange. Women who are interested in performing femininity often get upset when anyone criticizes these traditions and their impact on women in even the mildest of terms. Funnily enough, it's only ever been men who have physically attacked me on the street for being an ugly, hairy, man-hating dyke.
    Women just find more creative ways to subtly call me that, I guess.
    I think you're onto something that SOME women can project a way of if you're not doing it their way you're wrong.   Hell even in some cultures where female circumcision is practiced, it's the elder women who pin down the younger one to suffer ritualistic pain.  

    We are a culture where women can opt for a variety of hair, styles and clothing.   Some friends lasered themselves clean and I personally can't imagine looking like a small child however I don't want it sticking out of my underwear.  Others may opt for corsets, push up bras, thongs, or men's briefs.

    It's about understanding IMO that as long as it's your choice and no one else's it doesn't matter.
    We don't have a free choice though when one choice (not removing hair) is so intensely stigmatized and rendered culturally unacceptable. You do not ever see women in media with body hair. Even on post-apocalyptic shows like The Walking Dead where the men all have ratty beards, the women are still completely hairless. Razor commercials for women show a razor moving over an already bare leg - that's how unspeakable not removing your body hair is.
    This is a cultural phenomenon that affects all women and how we make our choices, whether we like it or not.
    When one choice involves harassment and abuse and the other is presented as the only acceptable way to exist, how can that be presented as a choice? When young women are just handed a razor when they hit puberty and expected to remove their body hair, almost before they have any?
    Women are not shown any way to grow up with their bodies in their natural state, and this cultural phenomenon requires critical analysis beyond "but I like it!" Of course most women are convinced they like it. We have never been given a real choice.

    Look - I get it.   We're told to do things a certain way.

    But FFS, there's a metric fuckton of pressure involved in raising a child.   I can tell you that if my own daughter wants to avoid shaving when the time comes that's her choice but I can't control what others do.   And while I'd love to yell and scream and police every child who rolls eyes in a middle school or high school setting the reality is that a lot of certain actions may also be advising you child to do something to protect them from the bullies.  

    And at this point, you're posting in a group of grown women who are aware that no one needs to tell them how to pluck eyebrows or shave their pits. 

    This is now needlessly criticizing those who opt to do something that may have roots in a male dominated choice but it's still something that I choose to do because *I* like it. 

    Get off the soapbox.   If you don't want to remove pit hair, facial hair or any body hair I don't care.   Stop condescending to the rest of us who make the choice to do it. 

    And here's the textbook defensiveness I was talking about.
    Look, I don't have the power to come into your house and take away your razor. Do whatever you like! But women should be allowed to talk about the ways that this practice is coercive and harmful.
    You enjoying shaving is going to be validated for you at every other possible turn. If you can't bear to read one woman's criticisms of hair removal, go outside! Or watch a movie or a tv show. Read a magazine. You'll get lots of validation for your socially-approved choice there.

    And you don't have to talk to me about changing behaviour to protect yourself from bullies. I was a visibly gay child in a rural conservative area in the 90s. You know what would have been helpful? Someone - literally anyone - saying "hey, it's messed up that you're being treated like that and there's nothing wrong with you. You don't have to do be who they want you to be".
    So, I actually agree with you (and said as much above). Harassment of women, in all forms needs to be taken far more seriously than it is, and that includes harassment for not conforming to conventional beauty expectations. I wish that someone had stood up for you, and we all need to do that when we see harassment, bullying, discrimination. 

    I just disagree about the strategy here. I think working to change institutional structures, to engage more women in positions of power, and to work to stop sexism & misogyny in all forms is more effective at taking down these societal norms and expectations. I absolutely agree that should include a critical conversation analysis about why norms exist. But I also don't agree with telling women they're just convinced they have a choice and that they don't really like something or implying they're just duped into believing it's a choice. I'm not trying to police your tone here, I do think there is a different way to go about these critical conversations where you engage rather than criticize the people you want to hear you.  
    I think you're misinterpreting my argument a bit. My point is that we don't know if we like it or not because it isn't a free choice. Maybe if shaving and not shaving were both completely neutral choices that had no bearing on how you were treated in society and were not groomed into us one way or another from early childhood, some women would still choose to remove their body hair. Maybe half of women would. Who knows?
    The point is that we will never get to that point in society if every time a woman brings up a critical discussion about the practice of shaving, everyone screams at her to shut up.
    I don’t misunderstand what you’re saying. I agree with what you’re saying, and I didn’t once tell you to shut up. I agreed we should be having critical conversations about this. I think women should get to do whatever they want with their bodies without fear of harassment and judgement. And I agree that’s not what happens re: shaving. 

    But again I disagree with your assumption that no one had has these critical thoughts/conversations and still decides to shave/conform to conventional beauty standards. You’re still assuming everyone has internalized sexism and misogyny to such an extent that they truly can’t make a choice because there never is a choice. And maybe that is true for the majority of people. But When you confront someone with a question, thought, argument that runs contrary to their practices and accepted behavior the most effective way to persuade them is not to put people in a position where they feel they have to defend their beliefs/practices because it leads to further retrenchment. 
    I can't control other people's defensive reactions to my posts, and my comment about being told to shut up was in reference to an earlier post where someone did indeed do that. But perhaps you were too busy lecturing me about my tone to notice some actual rudeness occurring. I insulted no one. I called no one names. I think that my level of snark was in keeping with the general level on this message board.
    Again, do you also take offense to the posters who called me a Nazi, told me to shut up, and sexually harassed me? Or just my overuse of snark?

    And you've again misinterpreted my post. I didn't say that there never is a choice. The choice is not real or free because of the enormous amount of stigma involved in one of those choices. Lots of women know that they don't like shaving and choose to do so anyway because of economic and social pressure. Those women are making a choice under those circumstances. We don't know how many women would choose not to shave if it were a free choice - evident by the posters who simultaneously claim "I do it because I like it" and "I don't shave in the winter" (when no one can see).

    No I’m pretty sure you’re just here to argue which is unfortunate because I repeatedly said I agreed with you and that this could be an interesting conversation. I also said in a post what you were called was wrong, so maybe you missed that?

    And again, I don’t misunderstand what you’re saying, I just disagree. 
    Now I'm confused. You agree or you disagree?
  • All name calling aside, why is someone - who likely doesn't visit this board - coming here, not introducing themself and throwing their opinion around when someone asked a simple friggen question?
    If you go back to my first post, you'll see that I detailed my history with laser hair removal, answered the question about whether it worked for me or not, and gave some context into why I stopped doing it. Other people replied to my post and turned it into a conversation. That's how forums work. I've no more "thrown my opinion around" than has anyone else on this post, but apparently I'm the only one you have a problem with. Sexual harassment? Cool by you. Called women Nazis for having opinions? Cool by you.

    I am recently engaged and you'll see if you look on other sections of the forums, that I've posted a few times. I wasn't aware that I was required to formally introduce myself to participate.

  • I am not missing  your point, I am making my own. I am not lecturing you, I am explaining my own, personal reaction to your post. Which came off as insulting, judgemental, and aggressive, to me. So don’t tell me you never said things that made me feel this way, because they did. Also, I never read anywhere that you were sexually harassed so idk where you are pulling that from. 

    What I am trying to get across to you, is that if you have been less confrontational from the beginning maybe you wouldn’t have been called the horrible, nasty term that I abhor. @*barbie was wrong, imo, to say that but I know, from repeated interaction, that she is a reasonable, kind person. She fucked up this time but it is out of character for her. I don’t know you, I can’t tell if this is normal behavior for you or not. So again, my advice to you is to be less accusatory when bring up a topic you want to open for discussion and people might actually want to
    it may be a harsh term, and typically not something i would say, but i will stand by using it in this situation. knottie#s didn't post to join the conversation - she immediately started attacking people for *having the conversation.* You can be a feminist and express your viewpoint without attacking other women. You can't empower someone and tell them that they have no autonomy in the same sentence. 

    the whole playing the victim after attacking a bunch of people is also completely ridiculous.

  • edited November 2017
    *Barbie* said:

    I am not missing  your point, I am making my own. I am not lecturing you, I am explaining my own, personal reaction to your post. Which came off as insulting, judgemental, and aggressive, to me. So don’t tell me you never said things that made me feel this way, because they did. Also, I never read anywhere that you were sexually harassed so idk where you are pulling that from. 

    What I am trying to get across to you, is that if you have been less confrontational from the beginning maybe you wouldn’t have been called the horrible, nasty term that I abhor. @*barbie was wrong, imo, to say that but I know, from repeated interaction, that she is a reasonable, kind person. She fucked up this time but it is out of character for her. I don’t know you, I can’t tell if this is normal behavior for you or not. So again, my advice to you is to be less accusatory when bring up a topic you want to open for discussion and people might actually want to
    it may be a harsh term, and typically not something i would say, but i will stand by using it in this situation. knottie#s didn't post to join the conversation - she immediately started attacking people for *having the conversation.* You can be a feminist and express your viewpoint without attacking other women. You can't empower someone and tell them that they have no autonomy in the same sentence. 

    the whole playing the victim after attacking a bunch of people is also completely ridiculous.

    It's not just a harsh term, it's a completely inappropriate comparison that likens discussion about women's rights to actual genocide. Members of my family are Jewish. Literal, actual Nazis are mobilizing in the United States and across Europe. You owe me an apology.
    Can you please point out where I attacked anyone? Specifically. Quote where I attacked anyone.
    STARMOON44southernbelle0915
  • GBCKGBCK member
    Knottie Warrior 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited November 2017
    All name calling aside, why is someone - who likely doesn't visit this board - coming here, not introducing themself and throwing their opinion around when someone asked a simple friggen question?
    Because she's a (*edited by moderator for TOS violation*).

    I mean, she's a (*edited by moderator for TOS violation*) that COULD have had a reasonable conversation on an interesting topic, if she could have hidden her (*edited by moderator for TOS violation*) under a layer of civility for 3 posts.
    But, I think, (*edited by moderator for TOS violation*).
    THe defense(iveness) rests.
  • edited November 2017

    GBCK said:
    All name calling aside, why is someone - who likely doesn't visit this board - coming here, not introducing themself and throwing their opinion around when someone asked a simple friggen question?
    Because she's a (*edited by moderator for TOS violation*).

    I mean, she's a (*edited by moderator for TOS violation*) that COULD have had a reasonable conversation on an interesting topic, if she could have hidden her (*edited by moderator for TOS violation*) under a layer of civility for 3 posts.
    But, I think, (*edited by moderator for TOS violation*).
    THe defense(iveness) rests.
    If you go back to my first post, you'll see that I detailed my history with laser hair removal, answered the question about whether it worked for me or not, and gave some context into why I stopped doing it. Other people replied to my post and turned it into a conversation. That's how forums work. I've no more "thrown my opinion around" than has anyone else on this post, but apparently I'm the only one you have a problem with. Sexual harassment? Cool by you. Called women Nazis for having opinions? Cool by you.

    I am recently engaged and you'll see if you look on other sections of the forums, that I've posted a few times. I wasn't aware that I was required to formally introduce myself to participate.

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