She's unreasonable, but don't lie.

mrsconn23

Dear Prudence,

My sister has six children ranging from 6 months to 12 years old. For many years, my sister and her husband established our parents as their children’s guardians if anything should happen to them, but this past year my parents’ health has declined rapidly. They’re doing OK but need daily assistance and won’t be able to take care of kids. My sister and her husband have both been in serious accidents.

My husband and I have one 15-year-old, good careers, and busy lives. Our brothers are both bachelors. My sister has been pressing me to agree to be her children’s guardians in the event of their death. She has several suitable in-laws but doesn’t like them. My husband and I gave it a lot of thought and agreed that there would be no way we could take on all six. We could take the two oldest, but my sister got furious at the suggestion. She accused me of hating her children, wanting to break up her family, and being a “complete failure” of a human being. I told her to calm down, that nothing had happened and likely never would. She said she would take in my child “in a heartbeat” and I said one child wasn’t six. Now she’s giving me the silent treatment. I don’t know what to do, and I’m worried about how this might affect my nieces and nephews. My husband says we can just placate her and say we changed our minds. I don’t want to lie.

—Reluctant Guardian

CharmedPam

“Sister, if we said yes now, and you know our true feelings, would you even want your kids left in our care?”.  Go with the other IL’s or bros.

mrsconn23

I see the sister's side a little bit. I can't imagine splitting the kids up after such a tragedy. The reality of them both dying at the same time and/or before their kids reach the age of majority is very slim.  So this reaction to something that's very unlikely is quite outsized. It sounds like between the accidents and the parents declining, there may be some PTSD in play here. 

LW isn't unreasonable and I feel like LW has been so blindsided by sister's reaction. Going from 1 to 7 children is a massive ask.  I can see how wanting to help, but knowing their limits, 2 kids seemed like a good compromise in LW's mind.   I can also see where LW's H is trying to alleviate some of LW's pain from sister's obvious break with reality on this, but it's not a good idea and kind of ham-handed. 

If we were dealing with a reasonable situation, I almost think there should be some kind of creative solution.  Almost like the kids stay in the house they been raised in, but then they get tag teamed by family and there's a coordination of their care.  Maybe one person is the 'main' person, but everyone pitches in.  IDK, just spit-balling on a situation.  Also, shouldn't sister have thought about this after kid 1 or 2 or 4 or something? 

IDK, beyond the accidents...it feels like there is some other issues with the dynamics here. But bottom line, LW isn't wrong for not wanting to take on 6 kids.  However I think guardianship is a dead issue.  Maybe write a non-defensive letter (or e-mailing) that they love sis and the kids, they're sorry for hurting her and then leave it in sis's court. 

MissKittyDanger

My bff is BK's guardian, but she's never asked for us {she has 4 kids} and tbh I would be same feeling as LW - 1 vs 6 kids is hard

banana468

Is there a way that the LW could see this as possible if there were financial plans in place?    Is it the logistics of 6 in terms of psychological ramifications or those of the financial? 

If there are financial implications then talk to the sis: "We've crunched the #s and the cost / year per child is X.   In addition we'd need to sell our home and buy a larger one with extra bedrooms.  To make this work you'd need to take out a life insurance policy worth $ and we'd need to be the beneficiary.   Unfortunately this is all what we determined is needed to ensure that we are not going to require additional financial assistance for their care." 

I can see the sister's point about separating kids and feeling hurt but she also needs to see the logistical issues especially when caring for ONE is not SIX and a SIX month old is going to require a LOT of extra work.

mrsconn23

That is the other piece, @banana468.  Does sis have life insurance?  How much?  Because the way I see it, she'd need at least a $500k policy.  $1M would be better.  Also, part of that money should be earmarked to be invested for the kids' futures.  NONE of that is unreasonable.  

These types of things remind me of conversations around pre-nups.  Yes, talking about your untimely death (or a divorce before even getting married) and your kids left behind is so very hard, but you have to be practical.  You're protecting the future for your kids and the people you wish to care for them.  You can't raise kids on hope and prayer. 

banana468

mrsconn23 said:

That is the other piece, @banana468.  Does sis have life insurance?  How much?  Because the way I see it, she'd need at least a $500k policy.  $1M would be better.  Also, part of that money should be earmarked to be invested for the kids' futures.  NONE of that is unreasonable.  

These types of things remind me of conversations around pre-nups.  Yes, talking about your untimely death and your kids left behind is so very hard, but you have to be practical.  You're protecting the future for your kids and the people you wish to care for them.  You can't raise kids on hope and prayer. 

EXACTLY.  If BIL and SIL asked us to care for their kids I'd be looking for at least $1MM and it may need to double if they want to insist on private schooling.   It isn't mean or rude to be clear about the financial requirements that are essential to ensuring that caring for kids does not mean  that LW and partner never retire, live in poverty, etc. 

MyNameIsNot

Taking on 6 kids, including a baby, is a huge ask. Outside of the reality of taking care of that many people, you're also going to have at least a few older kids who are grieving their parents. That's no small challenge and a huge life change.

I'm kind of on team fuck your sister today, but fuck your sister. She can give you the silent treatment and go ask someone else. Hopefully she'll come around to acting like an adult and having a conversation once a few other people balk. 

flantastic

I would absolutely take all the kids if I were in LW's position, but how can sister truly not know that there is a gigantic difference in the asks? And the fact that she's pretending there is no difference does not make me hopeful for the life insurance or other provisions.

I also understand how and why it's not something everyone would be comfortable doing. You can't blame LW for knowing that's their limit.

charlotte989875

I’m on a way different side here. I think LWs suggestion was ridiculous. Split up a family & only take the two oldest? How does that make the rest of your nieces & nephews feel who just lost their parents. I think this is all or nothing. Maybe sis would have reacted badly to you saying no to all 6, but offering two feels really cold. 

We’re guardians for Hs brothers kids of anything we’re to happen. We know the parameters for how money is to be spent, what to do with the house (we move in or sell & money goes to the kids accounts), there’s provisions for the extra costs of taking them in. I could never imagine splitting up the kids if we ever had to enact this plan. 

banana468

flantastic said:

I would absolutely take all the kids if I were in LW's position, but how can sister truly not know that there is a gigantic difference in the asks? And the fact that she's pretending there is no difference does not make me hopeful for the life insurance or other provisions.

I also understand how and why it's not something everyone would be comfortable doing. You can't blame LW for knowing that's their limit.

Exactly! 

There is also a big emotional limit and I'm irritated at the sister for not asking.  DH and I have our two.  Assuming we don't have a surprise we have two.  As a practicing Catholic hanging out in circles on social media with those who practice NFP AND having married into a prolific family I chafe when I hear people say, "You need to always be open to having more kids because it's a sin if you don't because God provides."  

My mental health and husband's mental health are at two.   Not everyone feels that they are ready for more and to insinuate that everyone is is so uncharitable. 

short+sassy

Ooohh, LW.  You have been so much nicer in handling this then I ever would have been, lol.

Probably the first thing out of my mouth, before I had the chance to restrain myself would have been, "WTF are you talking about?  Are you insane?  I could never take care of 6 children."

Then I would try to mollify my rude statement.  That I love my nieces and nephews.  I would want them in my life and would help their guardians (if that was wanted).  But there is no way I could be their guardian.

But if my sibling wanted to pitch a hissy fit and make false accusations that I "hate her children, I'm a failure", whelp, sorry she feels that way.

Seems like the sister and BIL need to take a reality pill and realize that if something happens to them, the only answer probably is that their children would need to be split up to different family members.

As to the LW's main question, they're right and the H is VERY VERY wrong.  I get that lying will smooth things over and make it easier, but that's the coward's way out and a super sh***y thing to do to a loved one over a subject as important as their children's guardianship.

banana468

charlotte989875 said:

I’m on a way different side here. I think LWs suggestion was ridiculous. Split up a family & only take the two oldest? How does that make the rest of your nieces & nephews feel who just lost their parents. I think this is all or nothing. Maybe sis would have reacted badly to you saying no to all 6, but offering two feels really cold. 

We’re guardians for Hs brothers kids of anything we’re to happen. We know the parameters for how money is to be spent, what to do with the house (we move in or sell & money goes to the kids accounts), there’s provisions for the extra costs of taking them in. I could never imagine splitting up the kids if we ever had to enact this plan. 

Also agree.  LW could have absolutely handled it better than any insinuation that she could pick the kids.  They are a family unit and theoretically will have just lost their parents.  Separating them would add to their grief. 

mrsconn23

banana468 said:

charlotte989875 said:

I’m on a way different side here. I think LWs suggestion was ridiculous. Split up a family & only take the two oldest? How does that make the rest of your nieces & nephews feel who just lost their parents. I think this is all or nothing. Maybe sis would have reacted badly to you saying no to all 6, but offering two feels really cold. 

We’re guardians for Hs brothers kids of anything we’re to happen. We know the parameters for how money is to be spent, what to do with the house (we move in or sell & money goes to the kids accounts), there’s provisions for the extra costs of taking them in. I could never imagine splitting up the kids if we ever had to enact this plan. 

Also agree.  LW could have absolutely handled it better than any insinuation that she could pick the kids.  They are a family unit and theoretically will have just lost their parents.  Separating them would add to their grief. 

I also agree, and LW should have said yes or no to all.  They did step in it here by making a controversial to downright bad suggestion.  However, the sister's reaction is so off the mark if she's really insinuating or outright saying LW hates her kids and calling LW a 'failure' as a human being. 

Everyone is a little bit wrong here. 

short+sassy

banana468 said:

charlotte989875 said:

I’m on a way different side here. I think LWs suggestion was ridiculous. Split up a family & only take the two oldest? How does that make the rest of your nieces & nephews feel who just lost their parents. I think this is all or nothing. Maybe sis would have reacted badly to you saying no to all 6, but offering two feels really cold. 

We’re guardians for Hs brothers kids of anything we’re to happen. We know the parameters for how money is to be spent, what to do with the house (we move in or sell & money goes to the kids accounts), there’s provisions for the extra costs of taking them in. I could never imagine splitting up the kids if we ever had to enact this plan. 

Also agree.  LW could have absolutely handled it better than any insinuation that she could pick the kids.  They are a family unit and theoretically will have just lost their parents.  Separating them would add to their grief. 

SIB
While I hear what you all are saying and it would definitely be that much more awful to separate children who are grieving but, the bottom line is, do they have any family members or friends that are willing to take all 6 of their children?

If they do, then great.  Have those people be the guardian even if that isn't the parents first choice and stop being a jerk to the LW.  

But, practically speaking, there is probably nobody willing to take all 6 children.  So the next best thing is if all the kids can at least be placed with family members, even better if they live nearby, and then at least the kids can grow up near and around each other. 

At any rate, I don't fault the LW for at least letting the sister know what they can do.  Plus their "choice" was based on ages and makes logical sense, considering their own son is a teenager.  It wasn't based on something uglier like, "Suzy and Mickey are brats, but we'd take John and Minnie."

VarunaTT

While I think LW's idea of splitting up the children was ill-advised, I think that sister would've reacted this way to a "no" as well.

I also would've said no.  I'm not mother material and I don't have any desire to be.  If there was no other plan and the only option was foster care, I'd taken them, but we'd all be in therapy on day 1, b/c I would struggle, hard and not putting that on the kids would be hard too.

I think sister is way out of line.  I'm not sure I can advise an apology from LW, b/c while I get sister being offended, but she's resorting to some really ugly statements and behaviors.  If LW wants to, I think apologizing for the ill-advised suggestion is in line, but that's honestly about it.

ETA:  words

short+sassy

VarunaTT said:

While I think LW's idea of splitting up the children was ill-advised, I think that sister would've reacted this way to a "no" as well.

I also would've said no.  I'm not mother material and I don't have any desire to be.  If there was no other plan and the only option was foster care, I'd taken them, but we'd all be in therapy on day 1, b/c I would struggle, hard and not putting that on the kids would be hard too.

I think sister is way out of line.  I'm not sure I can advise an apology from LW, b/c while I get sister being offended, but she's resorting to some really ugly statements and behaviors.  If LW wants to, I think apologizing for the ill-advised suggestion is in line, but that's honestly about it.

ETA:  words

It's letters like these that reach into my deepest, darkest fears.  That something happens to my sister and BIL and it's up to me to take in my niece and nephew (two kids).  I would if I had to.  And I would put on as positive and happy a face as I could about it for the rest of my life.  But it would be a little life ruining for me and my H.

But if my sister and BIL had four or more kids (maybe even 3, depending on ages), I couldn't.  They'd have to go in foster care if there was nobody else.  I know it's selfish.  But I would hate every second of my life until they were out of my house, if I had to deal with that many children every day.  It would fully ruin my and my H's life and I'm not doing that for someone else's kids, not even my sister's.

With all that said, I think my sister/BIL already have something set up where close friends have been chosen as the guardians.  I think my BIL's brother's family was also talked about.  They've never asked me.  Probably "part" I'm not that especially close with my family and "part" my sister knows I don't want children, hence why I don't have any. 

mrsconn23

VarunaTT said:

While I think LW's idea of splitting up the children was ill-advised, I think that sister would've reacted this way to a "no" as well.

I also would've said no.  I'm not mother material and I don't have any desire to be.  If there was no other plan and the only option was foster care, I'd taken them, but we'd all be in therapy on day 1, b/c I would struggle, hard and not putting that on the kids would be hard too.

I think sister is way out of line.  I'm not sure I can advise an apology from LW, b/c while I get sister being offended, but she's resorting to some really ugly statements and behaviors.  If LW wants to, I think apologizing for the ill-advised suggestion is in line, but that's honestly about it.

ETA:  words

That part. People do not realize how hard taking on other people's kids is and how much resentment it can lead to if you don't realize it.  Now imagine doing that x 6 after your sibling and their spouse died in a likely horrific and sudden way.  This is why it has to be a practical decision as much, if not more, than it being an emotional decision.  Sister is making it entirely emotional. 

And I only recommended apologizing for hurting sis's feelings, but I feel it should only be if LW wants to be in their niece's and nephew's lives. Sis' reaction is worse than anything LW said. 

I also wonder if this is the dynamic, which is a whole other ball of wax. (OMG, I can only imagine what's going on with the parent's care coordination and whatnot. It's gotta be a waking nightmare if sis is also heavily involved in that.) 

MyNameIsNot

short+sassy said:

VarunaTT said:

While I think LW's idea of splitting up the children was ill-advised, I think that sister would've reacted this way to a "no" as well.

I also would've said no.  I'm not mother material and I don't have any desire to be.  If there was no other plan and the only option was foster care, I'd taken them, but we'd all be in therapy on day 1, b/c I would struggle, hard and not putting that on the kids would be hard too.

I think sister is way out of line.  I'm not sure I can advise an apology from LW, b/c while I get sister being offended, but she's resorting to some really ugly statements and behaviors.  If LW wants to, I think apologizing for the ill-advised suggestion is in line, but that's honestly about it.

ETA:  words

It's letters like these that reach into my deepest, darkest fears.  That something happens to my sister and BIL and it's up to me to take in my niece and nephew (two kids).  I would if I had to.  And I would put on as positive and happy a face as I could about it for the rest of my life.  But it would be a little life ruining for me and my H.

But if my sister and BIL had four or more kids (maybe even 3, depending on ages), I couldn't.  They'd have to go in foster care if there was nobody else.  I know it's selfish.  But I would hate every second of my life until they were out of my house, if I had to deal with that many children every day.  It would fully ruin my and my H's life and I'm not doing that for someone else's kids, not even my sister's.

With all that said, I think my sister/BIL already have something set up where close friends have been chosen as the guardians.  I think my BIL's brother's family was also talked about.  They've never asked me.  Probably "part" I'm not that especially close with my family and "part" my sister knows I don't want children, hence why I don't have any. 

I'm thinking about it from that perspective too. My sister asked me to be guardian for her kids, and I've said yes. (Although we've never discussed it again, so I don't know if she's given any thought to the particulars.) 

I'd do it because I love them, but holy hell, it would suck so much. 

ILoveBeachMusic

This is hitting very close to home at the moment as DD and SIL are needing to name new guardians for their children. When they first named guardians DS1 and DIL declined. They named some other people but now that isn't going to be possible if it is needed. They are going to ask DS1 and DIL again. If they decline again I don't know what they are going to do. Financially there will be no problem. As DD says the kids will be better off financially without them than with them. I don't think there are any hard feelings about the first decline but I don't know. H and I stayed out of it. It's tough. I did tell DD that if they declined H and I would do it but we aren't the best choice considering our ages. We, of course, would be around for social and moral support as needed.