Culture clash impasse

mrsconn23

Dear Prudence,

I was raised Mormon, my husband was raised Jewish. Neither of us are practicing or believing in the faiths we were raised with; in fact, I’m agnostic and he’s atheist. We have a baby on the way, and we’ve already decided to not raise her with religion; however, I enjoy celebrating Christmas. I’ve explained to my husband that Christmas really can be as secular as one wants, but he just doesn’t seem moved. If we celebrate, I’m forcing him to do something he’s uncomfortable about. If we don’t celebrate, he’s forcing me to give up a major holiday that I’ve always loved. It seems like a lose-lose situation.

— Bah Humbug

CharmedPam

I’m pagan, and I love me some traditional Christmas traditions so I get it. I say LW, celebrate as much as you can but he may bring your holidays down year after year.  Something you have to ask yourself if you can live with?

charlotte989875

Is there a compromise? A tree and presents but no baby Jesus? Santa isn’t real, but this is a time when we celebrate people we love? 

I’d be more concerned he’s unwilling to talk through a compromise then the specifics here. If he doesn’t like something with how you all are raising your child is he going to put his foot down and be the sole decision maker? 

banana468

mrsconn23 said:

Dear Prudence,

I was raised Mormon, my husband was raised Jewish. Neither of us are practicing or believing in the faiths we were raised with; in fact, I’m agnostic and he’s atheist. We have a baby on the way, and we’ve already decided to not raise her with religion; however, I enjoy celebrating Christmas. I’ve explained to my husband that Christmas really can be as secular as one wants, but he just doesn’t seem moved. If we celebrate, I’m forcing him to do something he’s uncomfortable about. If we don’t celebrate, he’s forcing me to give up a major holiday that I’ve always loved. It seems like a lose-lose situation.

— Bah Humbug

That's interesting.  I have atheistic friends who celebrate Christmas and our friend's Jewish wife loves it. 

Why can't LW talk to the H and see what it is that he's against? 

This isn't passing my smell test though.   If it's a holiday that LW has always loved then what were they doing while they were dating and newly married?   Did they sit in silence and do nothing and get resentful?  If it's coming up just now I'm not buying that LW truly loved it. 

mrsconn23

I wonder if some of his pushback is that he was raised Jewish and if they didn't celebrate Christmas at all (I know some Jews do celebrate it as a secular holiday, but many don't), then he doesn't 'get' it as an emotional tradition for LW.  But he should try.  This is far from the only difference of opinion that they will have over raising their soon-to-be child.

I wonder how he feels about non-religious things. If this is centered around any kind of whisper of celebrating something that could appear to be 'religious', then he needs to get some help for his seeming aversion (which may be rooted in trauma). 

DH and I lean pretty agnostic bordering on atheist (DH has some deeply rooted religious trauma from childhood) and we're raising DefConn w/o religion, but I cannot imagine giving up Christmas and our holiday traditions.  We just don't base it on Christ's birth and it has more to do with being with family, showing them love, and eating all the food.  

STARMOON44

Christmas is not secular. You agreed to no religion and are now being like oh but wait Obvi my major religious holiday is cool. You’re wrong. 

Some one who was raised Jewish and agreed in advance to no religion does not need therapy to decide to accept Christmas into their home. 

mrsconn23

STARMOON44 said:

Christmas is not secular. You agreed to no religion and are now being like oh but wait Obvi my major religious holiday is cool. You’re wrong. 

Some one who was raised Jewish and agreed in advance to no religion does not need therapy to decide to accept Christmas into their home. 

There are a lot of things around the Christmas season that are secular.  Snowmen, holiday lights, reindeer, putting a dead tree in your house, etc. all have nothing to do with Christ.  He's denying his wife something that makes her happy, IMO.  She may have family traditions she did growing up that she wants to do with her kid.  If she's not wanting to take the kid to church or preach Christianity to the kid, then I think he's being too harsh.  Kids are very uncomplicated and don't really question much, especially if it's something fun.  I'd love to know if H has any remnants of his faith life that he holds on to because they have familial and emotional meaning to him vs. religious significance.  

This is about compromise.  Does he go hard on all things he doesn't want or is the perception of religion and faith the hill he dies on?  If he cannot even bring himself to agree to a damn tree and snowman because or baking a batch of holiday cookies because it's tied to 'Christmas' even if his wife's cherished memories growing up have to do with doing those things, then I think he's being overbearing. If he cannot even with any religion and/or has a negative, unreasonable reaction, it's worth exploring IMO.  

This is also something that LW and H should have discussed when they decided to be atheist/agnostic and/or decided to have kids.  I also want to know what they've done around the holiday season to this point.  If their families still celebrate Hanukkah and/or Christmas, do they attend anything?  Do they sit out?  Do they go to have dinner, but don't participate in gifts or any blessings?  

banana468

@mrsconn23 this is why the letter didn't pass my test.  How important is this holiday to the LW that they made it through dating and the beginning of marriage before this came up??  I'm assuming that this relationship didn't move so fast that they just passed their first holiday season together. 

STARMOON44

It’s very easy to say Christmas is secular when you didn’t grow up in a minority religion having it shoved down your throat a month+ a year. I think the wife here has a lot of unexplored privilege where she just assumed sure a little dash of festive Christmas is fine. Definitely they should talk and keep talking but I think it’s really off to suggest him simply wanting to stick to what they agreed to is problematic. 

short+sassy

STARMOON44 said:

Christmas is not secular. You agreed to no religion and are now being like oh but wait Obvi my major religious holiday is cool. You’re wrong. 

Some one who was raised Jewish and agreed in advance to no religion does not need therapy to decide to accept Christmas into their home. 

I don't entirely agree with this statement.

The true meaning of Christmas...celebrating Jesus's birth...is most definitely not secular.  But most of the Christmas traditions have nothing to do with religion and aren't Christian-specific at all.  This is where the LW is coming from and I definitely see her point.

I see the H's point also, though.  The most important thing is for the couple to decide on what they are both comfortable with and what they are not.  But I'd hope the husband can have some flexibility and compromise with this.

I'm also curious as to what has been going on in their house/relationship, before a baby arrives on the scene.  That's what would seem like is the most important question.  Though has probably been something of a controversy already. 

If the LW has always had Christmas decorations and done XYZ, than it does seem like an about-face of her H to suddenly shut it all down.

But on the other side of that coin, if there has always been zero Christmas in their relationship and the LW only has Christmas-like traditions outside of the relationship/home.  Wwellll, then I can more clearly understand why the H is saying, "WTF?  Nothing Christmas.  Why would that change just because we will have a baby by Christmas 2022?"

mrsconn23

short+sassy said:

STARMOON44 said:

Christmas is not secular. You agreed to no religion and are now being like oh but wait Obvi my major religious holiday is cool. You’re wrong. 

Some one who was raised Jewish and agreed in advance to no religion does not need therapy to decide to accept Christmas into their home. 

I don't entirely agree with this statement.

The true meaning of Christmas...celebrating Jesus's birth...is most definitely not secular.  But most of the Christmas traditions have nothing to do with religion and aren't Christian-specific at all.  This is where the LW is coming from and I definitely see her point.

I see the H's point also, though.  The most important thing is for the couple to decide on what they are both comfortable with and what they are not.  But I'd hope the husband can have some flexibility and compromise with this.

I'm also curious as to what has been going on in their house/relationship, before a baby arrives on the scene.  That's what would seem like is the most important question.  Though has probably been something of a controversy already. 

If the LW has always had Christmas decorations and done XYZ, than it does seem like an about-face of her H to suddenly shut it all down.

But on the other side of that coin, if there has always been zero Christmas in their relationship and the LW only has Christmas-like traditions outside of the relationship/home.  Wwellll, then I can more clearly understand why the H is saying, "WTF?  Nothing Christmas.  Why would that change just because we will have a baby by Christmas 2022?"

I really want to know how long they've been married and when they decided to leave faith.  Also, was that a decision made together or did they do it independently before they met?  Did one go first and the other follow?  What did their discussions about family look like before the pregnancy?  How involved in their families are they currently? 

She doesn't say how involved he was in his faith before leaving, but being Mormon is an all-consuming thing.  It's your entire life and most people who leave Mormonism talk about it like it's a death and mourn it as such.  It costs many people a lot to leave.  I can see how pregnancy is bringing up feelings of wanting to find traditions to share with their child that she may not have thought about before now. 

A relationship should be an ongoing conversation of evolving ideas and attitudes.  When one person holds too tightly to one idea and won't hear out their partner and see how they can come to a place of understanding and/or compromise, it's an issue that needs to be worked out in a way that honors both partners. 

levioosa

Just a gentle reminder to everyone that Christmas is indeed extremely westernized and very much rooted in Christianity even with the snowmen, gifts and trees. Are there secular components to Christmas? Of course, but the reason it is such a big holiday remains solidly in the “because of Christianity” camp. That can be incredibly difficult for those in other religions or who grew up separate from Western culture. We (as a country) tend to shit on other major holidays of other religions. They don’t get time off, there’s very little tolerance for even asking for those days off, yet when it comes to Christmas it’s a month and a half of tinsel being shoved down everyone’s throat. 

I had a moment a few weeks ago when I really thought about this subject. We were on a hike and doing our cool down walk downtown. There were pretty lights everywhere. I wondered, how would I feel if I moved somewhere to a holiday that I didn’t personally identify with? Would I be annoyed about it taking over everything? Would I still enjoy the decor? How would it feel if suddenly I was not the majority in a celebration or event? Trying to take yourself out of something that is such the norm is hard, but I think it’s worth exploring. 

VarunaTT

Okay, Christmas is 1000000% appropriated from multiple different religions, philosophies, and cultures.  Jesus wasn't born in December, the holiday itself is co-opted (along with A LOT of it's symbols) from paganism, it takes place at the time it does b/c of Saturnalia and the winter solstice b/c of the symbols those things held when Christian nations went a-conquering and assimilating.  So, debating the "veracity" of Christmas is not on a solid foundation in the first place.

Let's take religion out of it. Make it a birthday.  Some people don't care, some people do.  When you are in a partnership, it's about a compromise.  

There are some things that would make me change my mind, but LW doesn't mention religious trauma, and that's about the only thing that I would tell them get some therapy first, then work out a compromise.

ETA:  So I think hubby needs to find a comfort level for him and then let her do what she wants free of judgment.

2nd ETA:  Which is why I'm completely comfortable saying Christmas is a very secular holiday at this point that lots of people celebrate, with no religion at all.  With less than 50% of the US population now reporting any religious affiliation, that will become more and more true.  As a society, Western civ probably won't lose Christmas, but the churches will.

banana468

I totally agree @VarunaTT.  I'm Catholic and my currently atheistic friends who celebrate Christmas have Catholic roots but they do not embrace other Christian holidays and instead remind those of us of faith that much of the holiday involves pagan holidays that were coopted by Christianity.  And you can find that Christians actually have a pattern of putting their holidays at the same time as other pagan celebrations that previously existed. 

short+sassy

Talking about holidays in general, I found this really funny a few years ago.  So in Christian-based countries, there is always a lot of talk about the commercialization of Christmas.  "It takes the Christ out of Christmas", etc.  Which I'm not disagreeing with, but there is a lot of that.

The client site I do my job for is in a Muslim-based country (Indonesia).  When I first started, our servers were based in Jakarta, so the "ads" targeted to me were for that area.  During Ramadan, there were SO MANY restaurant ads talking about Ramadan feasts and all-you-can eat buffets starting after dark.  For fun, I clicked on some of them and ran across occasional reviews complaining about the commercialization of Ramadan.  I Googled that subject a little more and went down a rabbit hole.  It was just like the remarks I'm familiar with about the commercialization of Christmas.

Even though the subject matter was holiday complaining, it made me smile to see how very similar the people of this world are.

------------------

@levioosa, though not nearly as extreme as your example, I can relate a little bit to feeling like a "fish out of water" during the Lenten season.  Pun intended.

NOLA is a super-super Catholic place.  Over 36% of the population identifies itself as Catholic.  But I was raised and still am Lutheran.  So, while Lent is still an important religious time for us, we don't do the "meatless" Fridays or "give anything up".

Lent is EVERYWHERE.  Every restaurant is advertising it's Lenten specials, many of them ramping up the advertising more than they do the rest of the year.  By the time it's getting close to Easter, I'm screaming in my head, "Shut up about fish already!!!!"  Lol.

In the beginning of the Lenten season, "what I'm giving up for Lent" is a common topic of conversation.  Every once in awhile, someone will ask me what I'm giving up for Lent.  I'm not offended by the question.  But I'll laugh and say, "I'm Lutheran, so nothing."

But one part of Lent I do enjoy is the classic, local question that is debated every year, "Is it okay to eat alligator and turtle on Fridays?"  There are strong camps on both sides, lol.

banana468

@short+sassy I hate fried fish and live on the coast.  I am TRYING to learn to like it because I lament that there's no spaghetti dinners on Friday.

short+sassy

banana468 said:

@short+sassy I hate fried fish and live on the coast.  I am TRYING to learn to like it because I lament that there's no spaghetti dinners on Friday.

Being a seafood place anyway, the restaurants here have a lot of Lenten specials that aren't just fried fish.

But, yeah, if you are talking about something more like a church fundraiser, it's almost guaranteed to be a fried catfish platter.

It's tough, though, when popular local cuisine is not your fave.  My H grew up in Oregon and hates salmon.  In my single days, I dated a guy who grew up in NOLA.  He hated shrimp and crawfish, which is like a sacrilege here, lol.

banana468

short+sassy said:

banana468 said:

@short+sassy I hate fried fish and live on the coast.  I am TRYING to learn to like it because I lament that there's no spaghetti dinners on Friday.

Being a seafood place anyway, the restaurants here have a lot of Lenten specials that aren't just fried fish.

But, yeah, if you are talking about something more like a church fundraiser, it's almost guaranteed to be a fried catfish platter.

It's tough, though, when popular local cuisine is not your fave.  My H grew up in Oregon and hates salmon.  In my single days, I dated a guy who grew up in NOLA.  He hated shrimp and crawfish, which is like a sacrilege here, lol.

Our parish (church - I live in CT and not LA) does a Lenten fish fry.  They also have clam chowder which I like, but that's it for the meal.   I love shellfish but fish and chips just isn't my jam and some whitefish will actually make me sick (I don't know why but I've thought back to some times I've had an upset stomach and the whitefish was always the meal I ate.  Despite DH's desires to do a controlled study I have not).  

I get that making other food is requiring a bigger kitchen and is more time consuming but I loved that a parish near BIL and SIL out in OH had options for macaroni and cheese and pasta with marinara sauce in addition to the fish fry.  

kerbohl

short+sassy said:

Talking about holidays in general, I found this really funny a few years ago.  So in Christian-based countries, there is always a lot of talk about the commercialization of Christmas.  "It takes the Christ out of Christmas", etc.  Which I'm not disagreeing with, but there is a lot of that.

The client site I do my job for is in a Muslim-based country (Indonesia).  When I first started, our servers were based in Jakarta, so the "ads" targeted to me were for that area.  During Ramadan, there were SO MANY restaurant ads talking about Ramadan feasts and all-you-can eat buffets starting after dark.  For fun, I clicked on some of them and ran across occasional reviews complaining about the commercialization of Ramadan.  I Googled that subject a little more and went down a rabbit hole.  It was just like the remarks I'm familiar with about the commercialization of Christmas.

Even though the subject matter was holiday complaining, it made me smile to see how very similar the people of this world are.

------------------

@levioosa, though not nearly as extreme as your example, I can relate a little bit to feeling like a "fish out of water" during the Lenten season.  Pun intended.

NOLA is a super-super Catholic place.  Over 36% of the population identifies itself as Catholic.  But I was raised and still am Lutheran.  So, while Lent is still an important religious time for us, we don't do the "meatless" Fridays or "give anything up".

Lent is EVERYWHERE.  Every restaurant is advertising it's Lenten specials, many of them ramping up the advertising more than they do the rest of the year.  By the time it's getting close to Easter, I'm screaming in my head, "Shut up about fish already!!!!"  Lol.

In the beginning of the Lenten season, "what I'm giving up for Lent" is a common topic of conversation.  Every once in awhile, someone will ask me what I'm giving up for Lent.  I'm not offended by the question.  But I'll laugh and say, "I'm Lutheran, so nothing."

But one part of Lent I do enjoy is the classic, local question that is debated every year, "Is it okay to eat alligator and turtle on Fridays?"  There are strong camps on both sides, lol.

So I'm Lutheran now, but I used to be Dutch Reformed.  In my previous church, no one ever gave anything up for Lent.  Now that I'm in a Lutheran church, they talk a lot about that.  It's been a little weird.  Maybe it's specifically the German Lutherans?  

short+sassy

kerbohl said:

short+sassy said:

Talking about holidays in general, I found this really funny a few years ago.  So in Christian-based countries, there is always a lot of talk about the commercialization of Christmas.  "It takes the Christ out of Christmas", etc.  Which I'm not disagreeing with, but there is a lot of that.

The client site I do my job for is in a Muslim-based country (Indonesia).  When I first started, our servers were based in Jakarta, so the "ads" targeted to me were for that area.  During Ramadan, there were SO MANY restaurant ads talking about Ramadan feasts and all-you-can eat buffets starting after dark.  For fun, I clicked on some of them and ran across occasional reviews complaining about the commercialization of Ramadan.  I Googled that subject a little more and went down a rabbit hole.  It was just like the remarks I'm familiar with about the commercialization of Christmas.

Even though the subject matter was holiday complaining, it made me smile to see how very similar the people of this world are.

------------------

@levioosa, though not nearly as extreme as your example, I can relate a little bit to feeling like a "fish out of water" during the Lenten season.  Pun intended.

NOLA is a super-super Catholic place.  Over 36% of the population identifies itself as Catholic.  But I was raised and still am Lutheran.  So, while Lent is still an important religious time for us, we don't do the "meatless" Fridays or "give anything up".

Lent is EVERYWHERE.  Every restaurant is advertising it's Lenten specials, many of them ramping up the advertising more than they do the rest of the year.  By the time it's getting close to Easter, I'm screaming in my head, "Shut up about fish already!!!!"  Lol.

In the beginning of the Lenten season, "what I'm giving up for Lent" is a common topic of conversation.  Every once in awhile, someone will ask me what I'm giving up for Lent.  I'm not offended by the question.  But I'll laugh and say, "I'm Lutheran, so nothing."

But one part of Lent I do enjoy is the classic, local question that is debated every year, "Is it okay to eat alligator and turtle on Fridays?"  There are strong camps on both sides, lol.

So I'm Lutheran now, but I used to be Dutch Reformed.  In my previous church, no one ever gave anything up for Lent.  Now that I'm in a Lutheran church, they talk a lot about that.  It's been a little weird.  Maybe it's specifically the German Lutherans?  

Admittedly, I rarely go to church now and don't have a local church I attend.  But I went to the same Lutheran church regularly when I was a child/teenager/young adult and still living in So CA.

It definitely wasn't a German-centered Lutheran church.  Relatively speaking, So CA wasn't a hot-spot for German immigrants.  There might have occasionally been someone mentioning giving something up for Lent but, overall, it wasn't something we did or talked about much.  

But now you have me curious, if I went to a Lutheran church in NOLA around Lent, would I hear a lot of talking about giving something up for Lent.  Just because it's so prevalent in this city anyway.

To be fair, I know it's always a person's choice and not some hard and fast rule.  Non-Catholics can give something up for Lent if they want to and Catholics don't have to give anything up for Lent, if they don't want to.

ILoveBeachMusic

short+sassy said:

kerbohl said:

short+sassy said:

Talking about holidays in general, I found this really funny a few years ago.  So in Christian-based countries, there is always a lot of talk about the commercialization of Christmas.  "It takes the Christ out of Christmas", etc.  Which I'm not disagreeing with, but there is a lot of that.

The client site I do my job for is in a Muslim-based country (Indonesia).  When I first started, our servers were based in Jakarta, so the "ads" targeted to me were for that area.  During Ramadan, there were SO MANY restaurant ads talking about Ramadan feasts and all-you-can eat buffets starting after dark.  For fun, I clicked on some of them and ran across occasional reviews complaining about the commercialization of Ramadan.  I Googled that subject a little more and went down a rabbit hole.  It was just like the remarks I'm familiar with about the commercialization of Christmas.

Even though the subject matter was holiday complaining, it made me smile to see how very similar the people of this world are.

------------------

@levioosa, though not nearly as extreme as your example, I can relate a little bit to feeling like a "fish out of water" during the Lenten season.  Pun intended.

NOLA is a super-super Catholic place.  Over 36% of the population identifies itself as Catholic.  But I was raised and still am Lutheran.  So, while Lent is still an important religious time for us, we don't do the "meatless" Fridays or "give anything up".

Lent is EVERYWHERE.  Every restaurant is advertising it's Lenten specials, many of them ramping up the advertising more than they do the rest of the year.  By the time it's getting close to Easter, I'm screaming in my head, "Shut up about fish already!!!!"  Lol.

In the beginning of the Lenten season, "what I'm giving up for Lent" is a common topic of conversation.  Every once in awhile, someone will ask me what I'm giving up for Lent.  I'm not offended by the question.  But I'll laugh and say, "I'm Lutheran, so nothing."

But one part of Lent I do enjoy is the classic, local question that is debated every year, "Is it okay to eat alligator and turtle on Fridays?"  There are strong camps on both sides, lol.

So I'm Lutheran now, but I used to be Dutch Reformed.  In my previous church, no one ever gave anything up for Lent.  Now that I'm in a Lutheran church, they talk a lot about that.  It's been a little weird.  Maybe it's specifically the German Lutherans?  

Admittedly, I rarely go to church now and don't have a local church I attend.  But I went to the same Lutheran church regularly when I was a child/teenager/young adult and still living in So CA.

It definitely wasn't a German-centered Lutheran church.  Relatively speaking, So CA wasn't a hot-spot for German immigrants.  There might have occasionally been someone mentioning giving something up for Lent but, overall, it wasn't something we did or talked about much.  

But now you have me curious, if I went to a Lutheran church in NOLA around Lent, would I hear a lot of talking about giving something up for Lent.  Just because it's so prevalent in this city anyway.

To be fair, I know it's always a person's choice and not some hard and fast rule.  Non-Catholics can give something up for Lent if they want to and Catholics don't have to give anything up for Lent, if they don't want to.

I'm Lutheran (since marrying H). Our church (ELCA) doesn't talk about giving up but rather doing something. It is an emphasis on something positive as opposed to doing something that some may see as negative. I was raised Baptist so don't really get into the Lenten thing at all.

missJeanLouise

Would he be down with a Solstice Tree?

This guy and Disney guy from last week need to form an asshole support group.