the baby question again.

katanne9

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:e9911b15-4ee1-417d-a665-6f867eb62f80">Re: the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE]I missed the part where you think you're fertile myrtle and can just get pregnant whenever you feel like it. 
Posted by Acrosthec[/QUOTE]

bahahahahahahahaha

is this a commonly used phrase i've never heard?? or did you make this up?

jeanacorina

After reading again, I am beginning to seriously doubt Norway has had any extensive experience with infants and small children.

It most certainly gets HARDER as the get older. You not only have to feed them, change them, clothe them, figure out what's wrong with them after you've done all that and they're STILL crying....

But you have to teach them EVERYTHING. They're going to start walking, and talking, and getting into everything under the sun they shouldn't be touching. Then they go to school, and learn even more, and start asking questions like "why?" and "when?" and "what if?"

THEN they get smarter than you and start their period and want to have sex with anything that walks and make your life a living hell until they're finally old enough to have their own and realize what a crazy person they used to be.

THEN, they dump their kids off on you because you're "free daycare" while they go to law school because it was more convenient for them to mooch off the Norwegian government than to just wait until they had the time, energy, and emotional capacity to care for their own child full-time.

So, it totally does NOT get any easier as they grow up.

Ana_2985

I'd also like to add a con to your list:  If you have a baby right now, start law school, and drop your baby off to your mother everyday, you will basically not be involved in raising your child.  Babies change SO MUCH in the first year or two and you will likely miss all of these huge moments.  I understand that a lot of people do not have the opportunity to be stay-at-home moms, but as Acro pointed out, law school is not the same as a typical 40 hour a week job.  You're going to be around much less than other working mothers.  Is missing the first few years of your child's life worth lower school loans and free health care?

And I'm also a little curious to see if you have anything else to say.

KD+BC

I think it's all been said here. Don't just get pregnant for a reason to stay in Norway. If you love it, stay. PLEASE don't plan to have a kid until you are ready. You only get one shot at being a good parent. You screw up, there are no redos.

desertsun

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:442d8d80-a402-44eb-aafd-c9322ee2f60d">Re: the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE]i think desert had a good point about her not wanting to actually leave norway.
Posted by Button5807[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Button. I wasn't sure if anyone else picked up on it, but I definitely get a vibe that she wants to stay, and everything else is needless complication.

I get it, b/c I tend to have a hard time making decisions, and will overcomplicate, trying to plan for every possible eventuality.

(I also tend to be contrary and play devil's advocate.)

But what I end up doing is what I told Norway to do -- stop overthinking and listen to your heart. Do what will make you happy, or what you feel has the greatest potential to make you happy.

Norway, I hope you're reading the excellent comments and advice and that you'll take the time to respond!

tafft1

Posts like this make me facepalm and just go..wtf. As stated above children are forever , this isn't like buying a house or something that you weigh pros and cons on , imo. It's a lifelong commitment and responsibility and almost makes me angry..as from what i can tell the reasons you are seeking just don't work for me , just how it is.

i'm 31 , without kids , and want them more than anything just about , HOWEVER , i am very logical in the sense i understand i am not in the best situation to do so and have not been so i have not made the choice to have them. And i have medical problmes circling this issue ( infertility possibly , etc.) , but even knowing that i refuse to rush things for my benefit. If it's something that is meant to be so be it , if not , FI is a strong supporter of adoption as well when we are both ready not only financially but emotionally as well. Coming from a family that kids were popped out withiout regard for their well being i am very defensive as they are the ones who didn't have the choice and suffered because of it. If you aren't 100% sure..just don't do it..please. It will be for everyone;s best interest. Just my 2 cents.

Acrosthec

Kat, fertile myrtle is a phrase my mom uses.  I don't know whether it has any popularity outside our family, and if so, it's probably a southern thing.

Button5807

Acro my mother who is very not southern uses it but I've never heard anyone but her say it before today.

Norway_T

Well hm, I can't respond to all the posts.  I agree that all is fair game when I 'live journal.'

 All I will say to conclude this post is that we want children.  The question we are debating is whether we do it BEFORE law school starts of AFTER I am settled into my new field. I imagine there is a five year difference between the two.

2. I would never ABUSE the Norwegian maternity laws but I would take what we are entitled to.  I would take the 1st six months maternity leave, while and Norway and either study part time the next year (and get paid part time maternity leave  for a year) or my bf would take the last six months and get paid full time for six months.  Both options are entirely legit.

3. Yes a wedding before a baby would be nice. But a BABY is a huge deal, and takes priority over a wedding. If that is the decision we make. Although to be fair we might get married in court before and have a wedding a year or so later.

4. I imagine if many of you were in the situation, entilted to a year maternity leave, you would actually consider it as well.  This is my only chance really to be home with my baby for six months and afford it.

Norway_T

By the way I half raised my younger sister growing up and was a nanny for over four years to very young children. I am good around children and have entensive experience around them and know how much work they are.

Norway_T

OH and I completely understand that even if we decide to 'try' to have a child that it might not work out right away...but the question isn't whether we can, but whether we should start to try.

But I have listened to you all, who would probably have be sterilized if it were up to you. But then again you don't know me. You don't know that I have a love for children, that I am very responsible individual, and have a bf that will make a wonderful father.

You only judge that since, we are taking a lot of TIME to figure out if this is what we want that it must not be the right answer.

My sister in law  is 30 and pregnant with her first. I know that they REALLY wanted a baby before she got pregnant.  They are in stable jobs, and are in the idela part of their lifes to have a child.  Maybe that is the 'better time' to have kids.

BUT I know whenever we decide we will be GREAT Parents. And it will be a great joy of my life. And whether at 30+ or now it's going to be a huge sacrifice. One I will make, whenever the time comes.

I do appreciate that law school is difficult. And requires more work than possibly a job as an associate. ALthough I have some lawyer friends, that I dare say work more hours than they did in law school. (60-70 hour work weeks).

But I appreciate you comments. And I think in the end after discussing all aspects of the issue we will go with our gut...I'm just not sure what that is yet.

Ana_2985

I don't think everyone was judging you, I think we were trying to say that based on what you wrote in your post it seems like what you REALLY want is to stay in Norway and you were using a baby to justify that decision.  That's not to say that you don't want a baby, it's just not coming through as your top priority in what you wrote.  What some people were trying to tell you was that it is okay to stay in Norway if that's what you really want even if it means putting off law school or isn't the most "logical" decision right now.  Sometimes you just have to do what feels right.

noelle24

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:0b65563e-e105-4756-b8f0-4de16fc7a62f">Re: the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE]Well hm, I can't respond to all the posts.  I agree that all is fair game when I 'live journal.'  All I will say to conclude this post is that we want children.  The question we are debating is whether we do it BEFORE law school starts of AFTER I am settled into my new field. I imagine there is a five year difference between the two [/QUOTE]
Just because you WANT children does not mean you are ready for them now.

[QUOTE]. 2. I would never ABUSE the Norwegian maternity laws but I would take what we are entitled to.  I would take the 1st six months maternity leave, while and Norway and either study part time the next year (and get paid part time maternity leave  for a year) or my bf would take the last six months and get paid full time for six months.  Both options are entirely legit. [/QUOTE]

Whether you consider it abusing the system or not, this still isn't a valid reason to procreate.  I agree with PP, that before you have a kid, you need to really really want them, and want them RIGHT NOW.  And THEN look at the feasibility of it.  All of your posts just have this sense of wafflng back and forth.  And if you're waffling, then you're not ready, IMO.

[QUOTE] 3. Yes a wedding before a baby would be nice. But a BABY is a huge deal, and takes priority over a wedding. If that is the decision we make. Although to be fair we might get married in court before and have a wedding a year or so later. [/QUOTE]

It would be a vow renewal, not a wedding.  Personally, I think vow renewals should be left for big anniversaries (10, 15, 15) etc., and I know a lot of people feel this way.  Not everyone, but a fair few. 

Especially if you're doing a DW, your friends and family may be less willing to make expensive travel plans when you're already married and are just doing the whole dog-and-pony show.

[QUOTE]4. I imagine if many of you were in the situation, entilted to a year maternity leave, you would actually consider it as well.  This is my only chance really to be home with my baby for six months and afford it.
Posted by Norway_T[/QUOTE]

No, I wouldn't.  Why? Because I *know* I am not in a sound financial or emotional place for a child right now.  And that trumps any conveniences or "pros" to having a kid now.

And you need to think about what life will be like AFTER the six months are up and you have to go back to work and start law school.  Your desire to be home with the baby for six months shouldn't outweigh what will be best for the *child*, not what's best for you.

jeanacorina

No, I wouldn't consider having a child before I was REALLY 100% ready right NOW just because I'd get maternity leave and be able to stay home only if I had a baby NOW.

I'm not ready for a baby NOW, and no amount of money would MAKE me be ready NOW. It would be a huge mistake and unfair to me and the child.

If someone told me if I have a baby this year they'll pay for all my expenses and I can just stay home for a year, I'd say "Can it wait another 2 years? I'm not done being a non-mom yet."

It's the honest truth. I love kids, I love the whole family thing, I want to have children and that's pretty much the greatest and most important thing I'll ever do in my life. And I want to do it RIGHT, not rush into it because it's more convenient now than it will be when I'm ready.

I wouldn't have you sterilized, although that did make me laugh. I think you're missing it from our point of view. EVERYTHING YOU POST is all about weighing pros and cons and being logical and singing Beyonce songs to your BF because you want him to propose. I don't know....

You just sound kind of weird and I think you don't really give yourself the time to think about what you WANT, regardless of what would be the most logical decision. Everything with you is money and quality and convenience. Just going by your posts, here. I'm sure you'll say I don't know you, but this is what you've given me to form my opinion of you.

In my opinion, you don't say ANYTHING that screams READY FOR MOTHERHOOD. Or anything close to it.

**Mutley**

As I suspected, Norway would come back and say that we are all off-base and we don't understand her.  If this kept happening to me, I would reconsider the words I keep choosing for people to continually 'misunderstand' me. 

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:638c5cf4-2bd3-4917-81a5-9c9add31de5e">the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE]SWe want kids, and since we will be leaving Norway feel we should try to take advantage of the opportunity.[/QUOTE]

The words "take advantage" bring on the air of working the system.

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:638c5cf4-2bd3-4917-81a5-9c9add31de5e">the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE]IT all comes down to "am I ready".   Well my maternal clock has not started to kick. But to be honest, I feel it might be easier to have a child now, take 6 month maternity leave in NOrway and start school with a six month year old. No not the easiest thing to do. But it  might be easier to have kids now, when I can take the first six month off and summers.
Posted by Norway_T[/QUOTE]

If you do not see anything wrong with making the statement that you do not think that your maternal clock has clicked in but that it would be easier to have a child now, then there is nothing any of us can say that will get through to you.

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:638c5cf4-2bd3-4917-81a5-9c9add31de5e">the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE]Thank God I have a mom who well help with daycare, it really makes having a baby an option.
Posted by Norway_T[/QUOTE]

Sorry to be a downer, but what will you do if something happens to your mom and she is unable to take care of your baby?

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:aef1cd89-333f-4600-8c4b-f8c53ef82d23">Re: the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE]But I have listened to you all, who would probably have be sterilized if it were up to you. But then again you don't know me. You don't know that I have a love for children, that I am very responsible individual, and have a bf that will make a wonderful father. You only judge that since, we are taking a lot of TIME to figure out if this is what we want that it must not be the right answer.
Posted by Norway_T[/QUOTE]

No one is saying that you need to be sterilized.  Way to be a drama queen.  What most people were saying is that YOUR post had no warmth to it.  It was a sterile post.  NOTHING about your OP said "We would love to have a baby together and now is the right time for us."  We can only go off the words you provide.   

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:aef1cd89-333f-4600-8c4b-f8c53ef82d23">Re: the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE]BUT I know whenever we decide we will be GREAT Parents. And it will be a great joy of my life. And whether at 30+ or now it's going to be a huge sacrifice.
Posted by Norway_T[/QUOTE]

No one said that you would be a horrible parent.  However if you have spent a lot of time around children, your previous statements about how kids get easier as they grow up are way off base.

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:aef1cd89-333f-4600-8c4b-f8c53ef82d23">Re: the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE] And I think in the end after discussing all aspects of the issue we will go with our gut...I'm just not sure what that is yet.
Posted by Norway_T[/QUOTE]

And THIS is what everyone was saying all along.  Your post came off as only logical.  There was a lack of emotion that was off-putting. 

emilykathleen511

I apologize, but I don't think OP is out of line. I have a Degree in Child Development and Family Science and have been around a lot of small children (and generally consider myself to not be BSC).


The way I read the post (from the beginning, not just after she posted again) is that she does want babies emotionally, she was just trying to logically decide when the best time would be. I don't find that at ALL disturbing. I actually find that to be extremely POSITIVE. Because, yes, a baby does require an emotional desire, but it also requires many logical things and a logical time in your life.

There are SO MANY women who have babies for entirely emotionally reasons (many of which have nothing to do with actually wanting a baby). For instance, so many women get pregnant to try to keep a man. Other women don't take any preventive measures to prevent a baby, while at the same time they don't have the resources to support a child and end up neglecting or abusing a baby they didn't want in the first place or simply live in poverty even if they have the emotional capacity to handle it.

OP is very carefully trying to decide if the conditions are right to bring a baby into the world. I agree that not ALL the logic is there, but she is doing way better than millions of women who are procreating without a second thought as we type. Just based on statistics, her baby is going to be doing better than millions of others simply because she will have a Graduate Degree (which is shown to have generally positive effects on children). So all of you ragging on her not being there should read up first. Sure she might not be there a ton at first, but think of all the positive impacts her career will have on her child in the long run. How many of you would be whining about her career getting in the way if this was a man going to law school? I'm sure you all will get defensive, blah, blah, blah about how you would have said the exact same thing if it was a guy. Whatever. Hind sight is always 20/20. The fact remains that there is a double standard about expectations for men versus women.

I am not saying that this is the absolute *best* time for her to have a child. I am of the opinion (as many pp were) that there is no "perfect" time to have a baby. She seems pretty stable to me, and has the foresight to think over the pros and cons of the timing. It seems like a pretty good environment for a child to me.

And no, considering some of the benefits of becoming a mother in Norway versus here is not IRRESPONSIBLE. It is highly responsible to think of all the extra benefits and support there will be in Norway that she is lucky enough to have access to. If I had access to those benefits, but I knew I wouldn't have them a few years down the road, I would probable TRY (because of course just because I want a baby now doesn't mean that I'll instantly get one) to have a baby now, even though I wasn't planning on having one for a few years. I would at least consider it for the benefit of my BABY and all the extra opportunities and higher quality of life it would afford me and my BABY. Because, YES I want children, and YES I am in a stable relationship, and YES I know me and my fiance would be terrific parents that it would be worth considering changing our original timing because of the extra benefits to our baby's and our family's quality of life.

I agree that not all of the logic is sound. But some of you seem pretty hung up on the fact that she is being responsible and weighing the options on timing. I would think a bunch of intelligent ladies like you all could figure out that logics of having a baby (including finances and timing) should be ENCOURAGED, versus, say, having a baby at the age of 19 with no financial or social support for purely emotional reasons, which IMHO should be DISCOURAGED.

/rant.

chosen175

Oh, how I miss this board! 

Here are a few things to ponder:
1. You might feel it's easy to have a baby when you're in law school, but eventually that baby will start crawling, walking, talking, chewing on your notes, destroying your house, coloring on your homework, getting violently sick in the middle of the night, and all those other fun things.  Imagine being at the end of law school and studying for the bar, while trying to potty train your kid and keep monsters out from under the bed every 20 minutes all night long.  You laugh, but that's EXACTLY what I'm currently doing with my 2.5 year old.  It's EXHAUSTING!

2. What's going to happen when your mom decides she doesn't want to babysit on certain days.... or permanently?  What if she is injuired or sick and her recovery takes months? What will you do?

3. You're counting on a 100% complication-free pregnancy, delivery, and a 100% healthy child.  That doesn't always happen.  What if you're pg in law school and have to go on bed rest for 5 months?  What then?  What if your child is born prematurely (like mine was) and has to live in the NICU for a while?  Do you think you can still deal with law school while wondering if your child is going to die, rushing to the hospital when they call you at 4am and urgently tell you to "COME RIGHT NOW!" - you think you can handle that?  What if your child is born with colic and  acid reflux (like mine was) and does nothing but scream 24/7 for 9 months or more?  How will you handle law school on 2 hours of sleep a night?

Being a mom is NOT all puppies and rainbows.  There's a reason all moms of newborns have bags under their eyes and can't remember where they parked their car.  It's EXHAUSTING.  You see a cute lil baby in the store for 2 seconds and you want one, but you have NO IDEA that the kid was up all night crying, had thrown up 11 times this week down the front of mommy's shirt just as they were getting ready to leave (and probably running late as it is.)  You have no idea how much it costs to feed, clothe, and raise a child.  Yes, you get gifts at your shower, but when that kid hits 6 months, you're on your own.... and baby stuff is expensive.  After your year of maternity pay, you'll be in school racking up debt, not bringing in any income, relying on your bf (who, in theory, can choose to leave you at any time), and buying a whole new wardrobe/shoes for a kid who outgrows everything in 2 months.  That 1 year's maternity pay isn't going to get you very far, regardless of how much you THINK it is.  Let me say it again.... kids are expensive.

Personally, I feel that if you have to ask if you're ready for a baby, you're not.

oceana919

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:72ef4fa3-1d9c-4fed-a197-d0f03dc6658f">Re: the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE]After reading again, I am beginning to seriously doubt Norway has had any extensive experience with infants and small children. It most certainly gets HARDER as the get older. You not only have to feed them, change them, clothe them, figure out what's wrong with them after you've done all that and they're STILL crying.... But you have to teach them EVERYTHING. They're going to start walking, and talking, and getting into everything under the sun they shouldn't be touching. Then they go to school, and learn even more, and start asking questions like "why?" and "when?" and "what if?" THEN they get smarter than you and start their period and want to have sex with anything that walks and make your life a living hell until they're finally old enough to have their own and realize what a crazy person they used to be. THEN, they dump their kids off on you because you're "free daycare" while they go to law school because it was more convenient for them to mooch off the Norwegian government than to just wait until they had the time, energy, and emotional capacity to care for their own child full-time. So, it totally does NOT get any easier as they grow up.
Posted by jeanacorina[/QUOTE]

I bow down to the awesomeness that is Jeanna.

Thank you for saying literally everything I was thinking...

Acrosthec

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_baby-question-again?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:307fb811-088b-48b8-aece-f919c964b3f7Post:1750f430-5284-4a50-9813-38e6c671e8a8">Re: the baby question again.</a>:
[QUOTE]The way I read the post (from the beginning, not just after she posted again) is that she does want babies emotionally, she was just trying to logically decide when the best time would be. I don't find that at ALL disturbing. I actually find that to be extremely POSITIVE. Because, yes, a baby does require an emotional desire, but it also requires many logical things and a logical time in your life. Posted by emilykathleen511[/QUOTE]


I have no doubts that OP wants children, EVENTUALLY.  I have doubts that she wants them right now.  But by her own words, the reason she's considering having one right now is that it would be "easier," which is soundly based in logics, not emotion.  But what if it's not "easier?"  What if it's really hard?  Is she going to regret her decision?  Resent the child?  Neglect the child?  I don't know the OP at all, and she may not do these things, but there are many people who would.  It may not be completely the same thing, but there are plenty of people who buy cute little puppies because they're cute and they think they'll be easy to care for, then it gets harder, and the puppy grows up and gets bigger, and ends up at a shelter.  You can't just give away your child, but I think the metaphor still stands.  However, like I said, I don't know OP and she may not be like this.

[QUOTE]OP is very carefully trying to decide if the conditions are right to bring a baby into the world. I agree that not ALL the logic is there, but she is doing way better than millions of women who are procreating without a second thought as we type. Just based on statistics, her baby is going to be doing better than millions of others simply because she will have a Graduate Degree (which is shown to have generally positive effects on children).  So all of you ragging on her not being there should read up first.Posted by emilykathleen511[/QUOTE]

 
I agree that logically thinking about how to best provide for your child is a great thing, and something more women and men should practice.  I also agree that having a graduate degree has shown that you will get a better job and be able to better provide for your children.  You having a graduate degree may also encourage your children to pursue higher education because they grow up thinking that's the norm because it's what mom and/or dad did. 

However, OP doesn't have the graduate degree yet.  And law school is HARD.  I don't know how many times I can say this.  It's REALLY stresful and time-consuming.  Anyone, including the OP, would have difficulties raising an infant/toddler while going to law school.  Maybe before you discount this feedback, you should read up on the failure rates for law school first years, and if you can find it, law school first years who have small children.  In my class alone we had only an 85% pass rate after the first year.  Yea, that's right, 15% FAILED OUT.  And none of them had small children.  Although, there was a girl in FI's class that was held back because she had an infant and a toddler, and couldn't complete enough courses to graduate with her class.  She also got held back from my class.  I heard she graduated last year, so it took her FIVE years instead of THREE to finish because she had children to take care of and couldn't study properly.  Her scholarship ran out at three years, so then she was almost $100K in debt anyway.

[QUOTE]How many of you would be whining about her career getting in the way if this was a man going to law school? Posted by emilykathleen511[/QUOTE]

Can't speak for everyone, but having been there and actually knowing what law school involves, I would.  Especially if he said "My GF and I are thinking of having a child, and she works full time and is thinking of going back to school, and I'm going to go to law school, but it's ok, because my mom will provide free daycare, so we can just dump the kid on her when it's not convenient for us to watch him/her."  I would tell him that they needed to wait to have a child, because the two of them would not be able to be good students while taking care of a baby.  Someone has to get up at night when the child starts screaming, and if both are working/in school, this gets tiring VERY fast.  Those who work 40 hours a week or even more than that, deal with it better than those who are in school.  And I believe I said law school is a 12 hour a day job if you want to do well.  That's every day.  You don't get weekends.  So that ends up being 84 hours.  The rule of thumb is for every hour of class you have in a week, you should spend 3-5 hours studying outside of class.  My first year I had 18 hours.  That's 54-90 hours SUGGESTED time.  If you want to be at the top, you have to work even harder.

If this hypothetical man's GF was going to stay at home and watch the child, I would still have reservations, but not as many because his GF would watch the kid and he could leave the house to study.  His GF would get up in the middle of the night because she didn't have class or work the next day, and she would take care of the child so he could sleep and be rested for class.  If this was OP's situation, I would tell her that she probably won't be able to see the child as often as she likes, but at least she wouldn't have to interrupt her studying/sleeping to care for the child because her BF would be a SAHBF and be able to handle it, and then once she got through her third year, things would get a lot easier and she'd get to see the child more.

[QUOTE] And no, considering some of the benefits of becoming a mother in Norway versus here is not IRRESPONSIBLE. It is highly responsible to think of all the extra benefits and support there will be in Norway that she is lucky enough to have access to.Posted by emilykathleen511[/QUOTE]

Maybe irresponsible was the wrong word.  I think it's deceitful, fraudulent, and under-handed to stay in a country and have a child, solely to collect money from the government and use their healthcare system, and then leave the country within 6 months and take the money they've given you for the whole YEAR and instead of using it for the good of the child or putting it back into that country's economy the way the country intended it to be used, you use it to pay for tuition in another country.  This isn't taking advantage of the benefits for the good of the baby.  It's taking advantage of the benefits for the good of yourself.  If you think you are mature enough to have a child, you should be mature enough to pay for your own education instead of using the money given to you for the good of your child.  Sure you could say that the money all goes into the same account, and some of it will probably go towards tuition and some will go towards basic costs to care for the child and the family, but that's not what the OP said.  Her distinct words were about using the maternity leave money to pay for tuition.  Since all we have to go off are her words, this statement left a bad taste in my mouth. 

The OP having a child in one country just to TAKE ADVANTAGE (her words!) of the benefits Norway's government offers, but then leaving the country soon after and taking those benefits with her makes it sound like she's staying in Norway simply to collect money for having a child, and then moving elsewhere to further her own education and agenda.

Oh wait, that's what she's doing.  My bad.

[QUOTE]If I had access to those benefits, but I knew I wouldn't have them a few years down the road, I would probable TRY (because of course just because I want a baby now doesn't mean that I'll instantly get one) to have a baby now, even though I wasn't planning on having one for a few years. I would at least consider it for the benefit of my BABY and all the extra opportunities and higher quality of life it would afford me and my BABY. Because, YES I want children, and YES I am in a stable relationship, and YES I know me and my fiance would be terrific parents that it would be worth considering changing our original timing because of the extra benefits to our baby's and our family's quality of life. Posted by emilykathleen511[/QUOTE] 

This is great!  For you and your FI.  You are already engaged and planning a wedding I would presume.  You are committed in a way that OP and her BF are not, yet.  As Chosen has pointed out, even though Norway's BF has bought her ring, he hasn't given it to her yet, and is free to leave at any time no strings attached. 

Getting the benefits of living in a country is fine with me, especially if you're going to be sticking around and contributing positively to the country that offered you the benefits.  It's the "have the baby here, then take the money and run" approach to Norway's thinking that makes it seem shady to me.  If she wants to have a child in Norway to get the benefits, then that's fine!  But I think she should stay there for at least the year that they are affording her the benefits before moving and starting law school (not that law school would be any easier with a 1 year old than an infant, but that's beside the point currently).

[QUOTE] I would think a bunch of intelligent ladies like you all could figure out that logics of having a baby (including finances and timing) should be ENCOURAGED, versus, say, having a baby at the age of 19 with no financial or social support for purely emotional reasons, which IMHO should be DISCOURAGED.Posted by emilykathleen511[/QUOTE]

No one ever compared the OP to the type of person you're describing.  The person you're describing has a whole different set of issues that Norway doesn't have, and that *is* a good thing.  Norway and her BF do have jobs, and they have some outline of where they want to go even though they aren't decided on it yet.  However, the OP does have her own set of issues that she and her BF need to work out.  The fact that she comes here and livejournals her life for us means that we are free to comment on it.  Some of us were saying if she wants to stay in Norway, she can stay in Norway without a child.  Others were saying that the tone of her post made it seem as if she was only thinking logically, and didn't actually WANT a child right now, in which case, she really shouldn't have one.  A child is a lifelong committment.  You need to KNOW that you want one when you start trying, not have one before you're ready because it's "easier" to have one in your current country.  That, IMHO, is just wrong.

KD+BC

Ditto Acro and Chosen...thank your typing out my thoughts!

**Mutley**

Ekathleen, way to completely miss what anybody said in regards to logic.  Nobody said that logic is bad.  The consensus was that ONLY logic is bad.  Just like only emotion is bad. 

However, when it comes to bringing another human being into the world, you need BOTH.  Refer to my analogy when deciding to get married.  You use both emotion and logic.  If you go into a marriage with only one side, it is not likely that it will turn out well. 

Plus this post comes on the heels of several posts in the same tone.  Or after her stating that she is being oh-so-patient waiting for her bf to propose by singing Beyonce songs or saying that her finger feels empty.  

notquiteblushing

I'm going to have to come back and read the replies later but Norway, you know better than this.  You posted this exact idea a few months ago and everyone said not to have a child just to take advantage of government benefits.  It's just wrong.  Really, read your post out loud.  You guys aren't even engaged yet, chill.

emilykathleen511

Mutley and Acrosthec:

I am aware that BOTH are needed to be really ready for a baby. But let's think about this for a moment. OP is the only one who knows if she is emotionally ready. Once she knows that she is emotionally ready, she would need to think about logistics, finances, and timing. These kind of considerations could be easier to shuffle through and weight with some outside opinions. It just makes sense that she would come on a message board for the LOGICAL SIDE having a baby, because she wouldn't need us to weigh in on the emotional part.

I agree completely with all of the posts pointing out all the flaws in her logic. That is what the OP was looking for. What I don't understand in the least is all the women attacking her for trying to consider the logistics. As you pointed out Acrosthec, there ARE flaws in her logic; that I am not disputing. I am pointing out that she IS trying to consider the logistics and figure out what scenario would be best, and THAT should not be discouraged. I was playing Devil's Advocate with some of her reasoning, because I think some of her points were discounted without a second thought, just because you all already decided she is bat sh*t crazy.

Norway_T

Thanks for the support Emily. You summed it up much better than I could.

Yes I have to figure out the holes in my logic and whether WE are emotionally ready.

But even with so many negative comments it helps to sort things out a bit.
IF we do decide to have a baby it will require a lot of planning, so that we can plan work contracts, moving, and law school around it.  As the baby would become 1st priority.