Beebee overload

AudgiePodge

I don't care if I can't legally drink! I knew that we were going to be married when I met him 5 months ago!

noelle24

Knowing you're going to be married some day is very, very different from being ready to be married right now. Knowing you want to marry someone after a few months of dating doesn't make it a wise decision to do it right away.  Advising someone to wait to get married is not the same thing as telling them not to marry that person *ever*.

FI and I KNOW that we want to have kids with each other.  Does that mean we should go ahead and procreate right.this.second?  Absolutely not. Deciding when to get married is no different.

CWill16

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_beebee-overload?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:49745378-af3b-4d77-9a61-0617d48ced00Post:a75acd3a-cf7e-4d06-9e40-ea095b66a71a">Re: Beebee overload</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beebee overload : Just FYI- living together or not has no effect on likelihood of divorce. Source: CDC National Center For Health Statistics, 2010  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_028.pdf">http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_028.pdf</a> Thank you, Your local fact checker
Posted by megandken[/QUOTE]

It would appear sources have conflicting data. I still have my text book and it definitely says that. I believe their reasoning would be close to Calindi's (religious values of those who live together v. those who do not).

EDIT: <a href="http://www.suite101.com/content/living-together-before-marriage-a139472" rel="nofollow">http://www.suite101.com/content/living-together-before-marriage-a139472</a>
First result on Google. So I guess there is no right or wrong.

Roo726

Living together needs to be tossed out of this conversation entirely.  I have lived with two previous long term boyfriends and living together was not the reason our relationships worked- or didn't work.  It was because our personalities clashed. We had different goals, and different objectives for our lives.  Living together was a sidebar to these larger more glaring issues.  Current BF doesn't believe in living together before marriage- I am JUST FINE with that notion.  Why? Because I love him and I know living together is a sidebar to a greater issue.  If he is messy and it drives me so crazy that I want a divorce, then he is probably messy in other emotional or mental areas of his life and we weren't a match.  Also, there is no specific age, and the legal age of when you are able to consume alcohol has nothing to do with your mental capacity for a relationship.  Alot of people don't even have champagne at their wedding. I do agree a marriage is more then a wedding, but sometimes you JUST KNOW. 19, 20, 56, 97 it doesn't matter what age you are there is no set answer to this question.  Also handeling life's hurdles together is no garuntee a relationship will work. I was with someone for 5 years, we had plenty of hurdles, and the biggest was our breakup.  Which again, we handled.

jemmini6

To me, if you can acknowledge that you are young, that you know the odds are stacked against you, and can handle the criticism with grace, then you are probably actually mature enough to get married.

However, what I see here is that a lot of the beebees get extremely defensive and think that they are the exception to the rule.  That their relationships is miraculously stronger at 18 (and after only 10 months) than most people have in their 20's & 30's (which they can't possibly know).  They think they are special and that they it's going to be sooo easy because they are, gasp, in love.  And they think it's okay to start planning an elaborate pretty-princess-day wedding w/o their BF's knowledge because they know it will happen.

Everyone matures differently, everyone's relationship dynamic is different, etc.  So there's no basic rules that can be applied to everyone.  But it's in the way people act (and react) to the changes in their relationships and how other people that perceive it is what really determines 'readiness' for marriage. 

But yes, as a very broad generalization, most people don't fit that 'profile' until certain milestones have been reached.  (ie, graduated college, pay your own bills, etc)

zipis1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_beebee-overload?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:49745378-af3b-4d77-9a61-0617d48ced00Post:ad9fed58-2da5-4863-9eb4-bb6e550878d0">Re: Beebee overload</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beebee overload : It would appear sources have conflicting data. I still have my text book and it definitely says that. I believe their reasoning would be close to Calindi's (religious values of those who live together v. those who do not). EDIT: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.suite101.com/content/living-together-before-marriage-a139472">http://www.suite101.com/content/living-together-before-marriage-a139472</a> First result on Google. So I guess there is no right or wrong.
Posted by CWill16[/QUOTE]

Just so you know, CWill, when presenting data into a debate if your source ends in .com, it is considered to be not very credible.  Megan's data is a .gov source, specifically from an institution that monitors these things, so her data is going to be the more credible and thus the more believable one.

That said, Calindi (I miss saying Cate) is correct. Living together before marriage is not a risk of divorce, it is just a reflection of personal values which may affect a person's willingness <span style="font-style:italic;">to</span> divorce. I have known some flat out miserable people who are still married after decades who will admit, in front of their spouse, that if God wouldn't frown upon it they would have divorced ages ago, and said spouse will agree.

megandken

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_beebee-overload?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:49745378-af3b-4d77-9a61-0617d48ced00Post:ad9fed58-2da5-4863-9eb4-bb6e550878d0">Re: Beebee overload</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beebee overload : It would appear sources have conflicting data. I still have my text book and it definitely says that. I believe their reasoning would be close to Calindi's (religious values of those who live together v. those who do not). EDIT: <a href="http://www.suite101.com/content/living-together-before-marriage-a139472" rel="nofollow">http://www.suite101.com/content/living-together-before-marriage-a139472</a> First result on Google. So I guess there is no right or wrong.
Posted by CWill16[/QUOTE]

I am not going to threadjack anymore but I have to give a little advice on sources and citation.  Google is not *quite* all-knowing.  In your link, the study only measured, as an outcome, people who mention divorce, with no actual measure of following through with it.  Mentioning divorce is by no means the same as divorcing.  Sample size 1050.

The report I linked to was issued by the US Center for Disease Control/Dept of Health and Human Services, National Center of Health Statistics, with rigorous selection of over 12,000 people (order of magnitude greater) for a good cross section of the American population based on the census.  Outcome measure: Divorce. 

Basic result: Premarital cohabitation doesn't matter- do what is healthy for you and your relationship.

calindi

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_beebee-overload?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:49745378-af3b-4d77-9a61-0617d48ced00Post:222a1351-1768-4536-9104-8833c8797640">Re: Beebee overload</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beebee overload : Calindi (I miss saying Cate) is correct.
Posted by zipis1[/QUOTE]

Then just call me Cate!  It is my name after all.  And most of the girls will know what you're talking about, and the noobs can figure it out as they go along.

And you can call me whatever you want as long as you're saying I'm right <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" />

zipis1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_beebee-overload?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:49745378-af3b-4d77-9a61-0617d48ced00Post:f44e3337-ab7d-4dcf-b704-f5f2f885876e">Re: Beebee overload</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beebee overload : Then just call me Cate!  It is my name after all.  And most of the girls will know what you're talking about, and the noobs can figure it out as they go along. And you can call me whatever you want as long as you're saying I'm right
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]

Ah, good. I am too lazy to type out the full Calindi thing or try to remember if it has two Ls or not :P

BTW, while I believe your name is pronounced the same way Kate would be, for some reason I always read it as "Cat-eh."

desertsun

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_beebee-overload?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:49745378-af3b-4d77-9a61-0617d48ced00Post:cb532a48-3c98-4f54-9744-b59d642ee930">Re: Beebee overload</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beebee overload : I am not going to threadjack anymore but I have to give a little advice on sources and citation.  Google is not *quite* all-knowing.  In your link, the study only measured, as an outcome, people who mention divorce, with no actual measure of following through with it.  Mentioning divorce is by no means the same as divorcing.  Sample size 1050. The report I linked to was issued by the US Center for Disease Control/Dept of Health and Human Services, National Center of Health Statistics, with rigorous selection of over 12,000 people (order of magnitude greater) for a good cross section of the American population based on the census.  Outcome measure: Divorce.  Basic result: Premarital cohabitation doesn't matter- do what is healthy for you and your relationship.
Posted by megandken[/QUOTE]

<div>Seriously, I so appreciate this being pointed out. Backing up your statements with SOLID data is important.</div><div>
</div><div>Please stick around and be the resident fact checker, Meg, PLEASE. :)</div>

CWill16

I am a paralegal student who just spent the last 5 hours doing legal research at a law library, so believe me, Google is not my number 1 choice. It was quick and easy.

If you would prefer the name of my text book:
Knox, David, and Caroline Schacht. Choices in Relationships: An Introduction to Marriage and the Family.

"Researchers refer to the cohabitation effect as the tendency for couples who cohabit to end up in less happy and shorter-lived marriages (more likely to divorce). Cohabitants are more likely not only to divorce but to report more disagreements, more violence, lower levels of happiness, and lower levels of ability to negotiate conflict (Cohan and Kleinbaum, 2002)."

The article they refer to is: Kamp Dush, C.M.K., C.L. Cohan, and P.R. Amato. 2003. The Relationship Between Cohabitation and Marital Quality and Stability: Change Across Cohorts? Journal of Marriage and the Family 65:539-49.

GreenPepperBurger

School always makes me tardy to the party.

I just don't appreciate people telling me their criteria for when they think *I* should get married. I have guidelines in my mind too, but they are guidelines FOR ME. Not anyone else. Personally, I think people should graduate college, have a degree and get started on their careers before they get married, but I would never tell someone "if you haven't [done these things]," then you shouldn't get married. I would maybe suggest it as advice depending on the poster, but it's not a flat out, end all and be all, hard and fast rule.

sapphirebaby926

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_beebee-overload?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:49745378-af3b-4d77-9a61-0617d48ced00Post:a8f99771-31cb-426c-babe-343ecb3267e6">Re: Beebee overload</a>:
[QUOTE]School always makes me tardy to the party. I just don't appreciate people telling me their criteria for when they think *I* should get married. I have guidelines in my mind too, but they are guidelines FOR ME. Not anyone else. Personally, I think people should graduate college, have a degree and get started on their careers before they get married, but I would never tell someone "if you haven't [done these things]," then you shouldn't get married. I would maybe suggest it as advice depending on the poster, but it's not a flat out, end all and be all, hard and fast rule.
Posted by GreenPepperBurger[/QUOTE]

I agree with this

What I was trying to get at in my post this morning (which I don't think I was able to get across in my sleep deprived mind) was that not every person or every relationship is the same. Some people are ready to make that commitment at an earlier age than others are. In general I think getting married young is not a good idea but I also realize that there are exceptions so to put out there that people shouldn't get married because they aren't legally able to drink is silly to me.

CWill16

And I wasn't trying to tell anyone that living together is wrong or they shouldn't do it. I will probably end up doing it myself. The point I was trying to make is that there are more risk factors for divorce than just being young. My text has a list full of them (most are way more obvious than cohabitation, like controlling behavior etc.).

Obviously there are circumstances where individuals are just plain out too young, but over the age of 18 (this is the legal age for a reason) maturity and individual circumstances denotes when someone is ready for marriage.

megandken

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_beebee-overload?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:49745378-af3b-4d77-9a61-0617d48ced00Post:1c326cf3-ae19-45a8-890a-534b08b1411a">Re: Beebee overload</a>:
[QUOTE]...The point I was trying to make is that there are more risk factors for divorce than just being young...Posted by CWill16[/QUOTE]

Cool.  Good point.  <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" /> 

MLekathLEEN

I think it's safe to say that if you (legally) need parental consent, you're probably too young.

GPB- awesome point. There are things I'd like done before marriage but I know my requirements will not fit for everyone else. No one needs to be judged or condemned (for lack of a better word) for not meeting those requirments you have set up except you and your FI, and you may bend some of those anyways.

MLekathLEEN

Sapphire- Since when are you Tiffbot1985?

Narwhal

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_beebee-overload?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:49745378-af3b-4d77-9a61-0617d48ced00Post:f230389f-f982-4b21-bba7-e6f3a272c841">Beebee overload</a>:
[QUOTE]The sticky is driving me bananas.  There are so many beebees, it's positively cringeworthy.  If you can't legally drink the champagne toast at your wedding, you should not be getting married.  <strong>No, there are no exceptions to this rule IMO.</strong> If you're my age (note, I'm 22) and you've been with your SO for a few MONTHS, you should not be planning your wedding.  Jesus Christ, SLOW YOUR ROLL PEOPLE! I'm only 22 myself.  FI and I have been together for 3 years and JUST got engaged.  He's 25 & I'm 22 and we're having a 2 year engagement...and I still feel like we're crazy young to get married.  There will be premarital counseling.  We have had fights and weathered all storms together.  We've been to weddings & funerals together.  We live together and pay ALL of our bills ON OUR OWN.  If you cannot say these things about your relationship, you should NOT be planning a wedding!  Period.  A wedding is to begin a MARRIAGE, not one pretty princess day.  And marriages take work...every.single.day.until.forever. Sheesh.  *And I'm off my soapbox...*
Posted by loves2shop4shoes[/QUOTE]

<div>I respectfully disagree and that's all I have to say about that.</div>

leia1979

Because I was curious, here's the abstract from the study CWill mentioned:

The relationship between premarital cohabitation and marital dysfunction was examined with a total sample of 1,425 spouses in two U.S. marriage cohorts: those married between 1964 and 1980 (when cohabitation was less common) and those married between 1981 and 1997 (when cohabitation was more common). Spouses in both cohorts who cohabited prior to marriage reported poorer marital quality and greater marital instability. When selection factors for cohabitation and subsequent marital instability were included in the statistical model, cohabitors in both cohorts continued to exhibit poorer marital quality and greater marital instability. These findings lend stronger support to an experience of cohabitation perspective than to a selection perspective as an explanation for why couples who cohabit before marriage tend to have more troubled relationships.

From Kamp Dush, C.M.K., C.L. Cohan, and P.R. Amato. 2003. The Relationship Between Cohabitation and Marital Quality and Stability: Change Across Cohorts?

I would like to know more about the study participants to see what may cause even the  more modern data to disagree with the CDC data. Unfortunately, I haven't found the full study (and don't want to pay $43 to read it).

We are cohabitating before marriage, and I have a hard time believing it would make a difference in our relationship whether or not we waited for marriage first.

CWill16

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_beebee-overload?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:49745378-af3b-4d77-9a61-0617d48ced00Post:2622ce6a-8af3-4dc9-b4cb-b97836948fd4">Re: Beebee overload</a>:
[QUOTE]Because I was curious, here's the abstract from the study CWill mentioned: The relationship between premarital cohabitation and marital dysfunction was examined with a total sample of 1,425 spouses in two U.S. marriage cohorts: those married between 1964 and 1980 (when cohabitation was less common) and those married between 1981 and 1997 (when cohabitation was more common). Spouses in both cohorts who cohabited prior to marriage reported poorer marital quality and greater marital instability. When selection factors for cohabitation and subsequent marital instability were included in the statistical model, cohabitors in both cohorts continued to exhibit poorer marital quality and greater marital instability. These findings lend stronger support to an experience of cohabitation perspective than to a selection perspective as an explanation for why couples who cohabit before marriage tend to have more troubled relationships. From Kamp Dush, C.M.K., C.L. Cohan, and P.R. Amato. 2003. The Relationship Between Cohabitation and Marital Quality and Stability: Change Across Cohorts? I would like to know more about the study participants to see what may cause even the  more modern data to disagree with the CDC data. Unfortunately, I haven't found the full study (and don't want to pay $43 to read it). We are cohabitating before marriage, and I have a hard time believing it would make a difference in our relationship whether or not we waited for marriage first.
Posted by leia1979[/QUOTE]


Like I said before I was not condemning cohabitation, just relaying what I learned in a class. I had considered bringing this up in other posts, but I knew it would be so controversial.

I think this is a really relevant example. Some younger girls here feel marriage won't harm their relationship just like you don't think cohabitation will effect yours. I do plan on living with my SO for the period of time between us finish school and getting married, but I will also only be 22 when we expect to be married. I am not discouraging cohabitation and I wouldn't discourage a 21-22 year old from getting married simply because of their age.