Nazi Thoughts?

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:69efe79c-533a-4159-8c7a-2f65ada5d0db">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : See, I just don't buy this argument because most people weren't pressed into this stuff. A lot of it was voluntary and there are tons of examples of German citizens and others declining to participate in various Nazi programs without any kind of retaliation from the government. Overall the Nazi's valued Aryan life too much to kill or hurt someone for refusing to work a certain job when there were plenty of people willing to do the dirty work.
Posted by annakb8[/QUOTE]

To me that is way to basic a view of what was going on in Germany and the military.  I think its too easy to point to a few instances where people voluntarily opted out of things and were okay.  I personally know a few (6 men)  who attempted to opt out and were serious punished, families threatened, etc.  and would all now be classified as ex-Nazis.  There were a lot of issues at that time and I don't think its that clear cut, nor should it be that easy to simply lump all of the people who participated into one category.  Are you a historian regarding the Holocaust or taken specialized classes?

annakb8

I actually have a Master's degree in Modern European history. So yes, I am educated on the subject.

shan87

My Mom's side is almost 100% German and I am really curious as to their possible involvement during this time, what side where they on etc. I tired doing some research back in HS but it didn't get nearly as far as I hoped.

I may need to watch The Reader. Personally, its fascinating to me. I know to this day it is a VERY sensitive topic to Germans.  

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:7c392cc1-0a70-43c5-a740-e75de485f415">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't think I'll ever buy the "just following orders" argument that has been alluded to and that they had no choice.  If there that many as we are led to believe that felt that way - they could have rebeled against the powers that be.  What could have been the deaths/sacrifice of a few (even in the hundreds or thousands) would have been worth saving millions. I agree with Anna that the camps that we specifically death camps - did not have non-active participants in the executions.
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

The Milgram experiements are like my most favorite example ever to use in support of anything, lol:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment" rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment</a>

CN: It basically shows that, psychologically, there is a LOT to be said for following orders and not wanting to upset authority figures. When the status quo involves something morally wrong, most still go along with it if given simple justification such as "this is what you're being paid to do" or "this is for your country." It's not like Germany was a country full of blood thirsty people lacking ethics.

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:348ba563-788e-4d22-97b8-46dc7b00fd93">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]Oh, I didn't see that he was a Russian POW, I read that as he was taken as a POW by the Russian army. I still think people are sometimes really quick to say that Germans (and other people who fell under German rule at one time or another) were forced into following Nazi rule and can't be completely held accountable for their actions which I think is complete BS for the most part.
Posted by annakb8[/QUOTE]

I really don't get how you can think this that sometimes extenuating circumstances force people to act in abnormal ways.  You don't think a majority of people weren't terrified?  How about when Catholics stood up to the Nazis and were sentenced to the concentration camps (main example Dachau).  This isn't to say I don't think there was a majority of sick assholes.  There were plenty of them at that time and they should be punished regardless of age or how long ago the crimes were committed. 

But if you don't believe that fear, intense circumstances, etc. is an excuse what about the Jewish people who would help in the concentration camps either by loading the people into the gas chamber, cleaning them out and burning the bodies, etc.? Aren't they also culpable? (As a disclaimer I don't think this)

blush64

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:37cdbf3b-8a69-4a06-976f-7a6eea021a70">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : You may be right, but maybe not. People were brainwashed. Children were taught these ideas and didn't know any different. You can choose not to let it go if you want, but your reasoning, to me is a little too simple when this situation is much more complex than most of us could even imagine.
Posted by LessThanZero[/QUOTE]

I have actually studied history in university and although I have greatly simplified my answer my opinion is not due to reasoning that is too simple. Talking to people who were in Germany at the time, looking at information and articles from that time(many primary sources) readin about the war (scholarly sources), what led to it (theories), and so many other things have led me to have that opinion.

EDITED

annakb8

Yes, extenuating circumstances force people to act in abnormal ways but I don't think extenuating circumstances make people any less responsible for their actions.

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:d72f3b50-29e5-4e6e-9ba2-e942a0bb2690">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : Ugh I hated that movie. HATED. Now, I think German guilt is a really interesting topic. I just hated that movie. Anyway, 2 pointsL 1) he was a Russian POW, not someone who joined the German army voluntarily. <font color="#00ffff">2) The nuremberg trials limited the prosecution to those who were in the upper eschelons of command - those who planned the final solution, those who ran the camps, etc. Otherwise you would have would up with 234,723 trials, right? I</font>think it's more so now that most people who worked in the camps are dying off, so they're trying to make a point of this and prove the Holocaust was awful and that it is still relevent - look at this guy! He's still walking around after murdering thousands of Jews! So yeah, I don't really agree with it, just because it's inconsistent with prior convictions.
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]

I completely support the Nuremberg trials and outcomes.  To me those trials were about justice and there was plenty of evidence.  The people in command needed to be held accountable.  I wish more of the upper notch Nazis had been caught and sentenced.

shan87

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:0565025b-e5da-42c5-aa89-9c2bbfc59e88">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : The Milgram experiements are like my most favorite example ever to use in support of anything, lol: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment" rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment</a> CN: It basically shows that, psychologically, there is a LOT to be said for following orders and not wanting to upset authority figures. When the status quo involves something morally wrong, most still go along with it if given simple justification such as "this is what you're being paid to do" or "this is for your country." It's not like Germany was a country full of blood thirsty people lacking ethics.
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]

Nice example! I was horrified by this when we watched during various course study. However, I find myself compiling on lesser serious forms of compliance. Like not talking in the elevator and getting it and starring forward. (ever seen the one where a person gets into an elevator and everyone is facing the back, 9 times out of 10 the person getting into it did the same thing.

I think there is a lot of merit in subconscious compliance.

aprovencher21

I loved the Reader

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:616babb4-6cfb-4bc9-b75d-4e3562e59670">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]I actually have a Master's degree in Modern European history. So yes, I am educated on the subject.
Posted by annakb8[/QUOTE]

I wasn't being snotty I was just curious about your background.

Nina0528

I feel that the "just following orders" justification really doesn't hold that much weight. Of course that's what anyone accused of being a Nazi is going to say. How many people who were tried as Nazis actually came right out and said they willing killed all those people? I'm guessing not a lot, most probably pulled the "just following orders" card. To be honest, I have zero sympathy for former Nazis.

This man worked in a death camp which to me makes a hge difference. People go to prison all the time for commiting other crimes when "just following orders".  If just working in the camp is proof enough for Germany than it's proof enough for me.

aprovencher21

I'm always curious on people's backgrounds when it comes to Holocaust history.  It was an area I seriously considered focusing on but I ended up not.  I spent a large chunk of time my senior year in high school traveling all over Europe visiting different concentration and death camps.  I also have done a lot of research and written a few articles regarding the different types of medical "research" that the Nazi's conducted and the ethical considerations with using some of it.

MrsMack10612

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:e7ae8828-18b2-4c30-88af-62f60ff8d6cb">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : I really don't get how you can think this that sometimes extenuating circumstances force people to act in abnormal ways.  You don't think a majority of people weren't terrified?  How about when Catholics stood up to the Nazis and were sentenced to the concentration camps (main example Dachau).  This isn't to say I don't think there was a majority of sick assholes.  There were plenty of them at that time and they should be punished regardless of age or how long ago the crimes were committed.  <strong>But if you don't believe that fear, intense circumstances, etc. is an excuse what about the Jewish people who would help in the concentration camps either by loading the people into the gas chamber, cleaning them out and burning the bodies, etc.? Aren't they also culpable? (As a disclaimer I don't think this)

</strong>I do believe that most of the Jews that had those jobs did so in effort to have a calming effect on those going to the chambers and respect for the dead. (Understanding your disclaimer)


Posted by aprovencher21[/QUOTE]

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:20f5105a-54ec-41bf-a085-f7d82f51e554">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]I feel that the "just following orders" justification really doesn't hold that much weight. Of course that's what anyone accused of being a Nazi is going to say. How many people who were tried as Nazis actually came right out and said they willing killed all those people? I'm guessing not a lot, most probably pulled the "just following orders" card. To be honest, I have zero sympathy for former Nazis. This man worked in a death camp which to me makes a hge difference. People go to prison all the time for commiting other crimes when "just following orders".  If just working in the camp is proof enough for Germany than it's proof enough for me.
Posted by Nina0528[/QUOTE]

Really so being a Russian POW doesn't account for anything?  So lack of proof of an actual crime is okay with you? 

shan87

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:616babb4-6cfb-4bc9-b75d-4e3562e59670">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]I actually have a Master's degree in Modern European history. So yes, I am educated on the subject.
Posted by annakb8[/QUOTE]

Props. I made the mistake of taking an Early European History class, it was rough. However. Early European Art on the other hand was amazing.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:c79fd219-09b7-4dee-9aef-86619112d169">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]Why did you hate that movie Mery? I don't think it's the best ever, but I thought it was really intriguing and made me see things from a different light.
Posted by reddy123[/QUOTE]

I just thought the premise made no sense. *SPOILERS* "Oh gee, I can't read. So I can't move up in my current job. I know, I'll sign up to be a Nazi at a women's camp!" Supposedly they did studies and people who are illiterate actually WOULD prefer to, uh, maybe become a Nazi than let anyone know their secret. I just thought it was ridiculous. And when Ralph Fiennes went to Lena Olin's character at the end and was explaining, "You see... she couldn't read" and Lena Olin said, "and that's supposed to excuse her behavior?" I said, "Right on, Lena Olin!" I couldn't sympathise with any of the characters. But like I said, the issue of German guilt is interesting - since Ralph Fiennes's generation didn't deal with the war, but their parents (and Kate Winslet) had all been really involved. And even today, there are people who were involved, not even in killing Jews, but as the army for a government who had that as their official policy, still alive, who have decendents who might feel conflicted about it.

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:167e1de8-92d4-490e-ab77-dc1930b7606e">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? :
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

I agree with wanting to believe that about those people helping; however, if we're going to continue on the road of believing the worse of people put into impossible situations I would have to think that they were using those positions for self interest.

(thank you for getting my disclaimer!)

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:268a70dd-ca81-4145-b829-ac2d42a8729f">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : I completely support the Nuremberg trials and outcomes.  To me those trials were about justice and there was plenty of evidence.  The people in command needed to be held accountable.  I wish more of the upper notch Nazis had been caught and sentenced.
Posted by aprovencher21[/QUOTE]

I agree. But they couldn't (and wouldn't) try the entire German army, or even those who worked as, say, guards at the camps.

shan87

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:20f5105a-54ec-41bf-a085-f7d82f51e554">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]I feel that the "just following orders" justification really doesn't hold that much weight. Of course that's what anyone accused of being a Nazi is going to say. How many people who were tried as Nazis actually came right out and said they willing killed all those people? I'm guessing not a lot, most probably pulled the "just following orders" card. To be honest, I have zero sympathy for former Nazis. This man worked in a death camp which to me makes a hge difference. People go to prison all the time for commiting other crimes when "just following orders".  <strong>If just working in the camp is proof enough for Germany than it's proof enough for me.
</strong>Posted by Nina0528[/QUOTE]

This is an extremely slippery slope for me. Take into consideration the people released from death row due to DNA evidence.  

annakb8

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:1099511d-927d-4cfe-9b45-04550be5a362">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm always curious on people's backgrounds when it comes to Holocaust history.  It was an area I seriously considered focusing on but I ended up not.  I spent a large chunk of time my senior year in high school traveling all over Europe visiting different concentration and death camps.  I also have done a lot of research and written a few articles regarding the different types of medical "research" that the Nazi's conducted and the ethical considerations with using some of it.
Posted by aprovencher21[/QUOTE]

So, have you studied the T-4 program? That was one of the things I was thinking about specifically when I said there are instances of people (doctors in this case) declining to participate without retribution. Of course, almost none of them declined and most doctors at the time were actually pretty huge Nazi supporters.

And I'm not trying to be bitchy, but this is something I've spent a lot of time onthis too so I guess we both have stong opinions. In general it just really pisses me off when people pretend that Hitler was just a big bad guy who basically scared everyone into submission. I'm not saying you think that, just that that's where my mind goes when people start talking about people at the time doing things against their will. It's a natural reaction though, and people in pretty much every country in Europe that was either invaded by or allied with the Nazis developed similar stories to absolve themselves of guilt. And I think it might have actually been a good attitude at the time, so that the continent could get on with life, but now there is more distance between us and the events and people need to be held accountable.

LessThanZero

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:20f5105a-54ec-41bf-a085-f7d82f51e554">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]I feel that the "just following orders" justification really doesn't hold that much weight. Of course that's what anyone accused of being a Nazi is going to say. How many people who were tried as Nazis actually came right out and said they willing killed all those people? I'm guessing not a lot, most probably pulled the "just following orders" card. To be honest, I have zero sympathy for former Nazis. This man worked in a death camp which to me makes a hge difference. People go to prison all the time for commiting other crimes when "just following orders".  If just working in the camp is proof enough for Germany than it's proof enough for me.
Posted by Nina0528[/QUOTE]

So then anyone saying "just following orders" for any situation is meaningless to you? Do I have that right? Or are you only choosing to use it in regards to Nazis?

MrsMack10612

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:7d6219de-c4e9-47a0-837b-236e8113f900">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : I agree with wanting to believe that about those people helping; however, if we're going to continue on the road of believing the worse of people put into impossible situations I would have to think that they were using those positions for self interest. (thank you for getting my disclaimer!)
Posted by aprovencher21[/QUOTE]

That's an interesting point.  If we (general we) are willing to believe the worst of the majority of Germans that may have just been doing what they were told to save their own skins; why shouldn't that extend to the Jews who may have been doing the same.   It may be that because the Jewish population was the primary target (I say primary because lots of "inferior" peoples were sent to the chambers) that those were doing those tasks were seen as heroes or martyrs for doing those horrible jobs when it very well could have been merely self-preservation.

disclaimer - Like aprov I don't believe this...just point of discussion.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

TBH, I totally get your stance, Anna. There was a lot of animosity in the wake of WWI and someone had tot ake the blame, and that ended up being Jews. There's also a looong history of anti-Semistism in eastern Europe, which is why the Zionist movement began long before WWII, and only came to a head after that. Plus, the entire theory of human rights is extremely modern phenomenon that came about well after WWII, frankly.

But I can see, especially at a lower level, how you might not 100% support it. Or that the extermination of Jews wasn't high on your priority list, but when you need a job, you need a job. Kind of like Union soldiers in the Civil War - few fighting on behalf of freeing the slaves. That just wasn't a priority.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:86620ed3-f127-4da5-ad4d-c634f07bd70d">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/local-wedding-boards_minnesota-minneapolis-st-paul_nwr-fil-insurance-vent" rel='nofollow'>http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/local-wedding-boards_minnesota-minneapolis-st-paul_nwr-fil-insurance-vent</a>
Posted by Steph0871[/QUOTE]

*threadjack* - I'm reading that thread on MSP and I completely agree with the points you were trying to make.

aprovencher21

The t-4 program (really the euthanasia program) makes me sick to my stomach.  I would hold accountable the head doctors and chemists who made those decisions....but again I'd find it hard to justify sentencing guards.

I agree with your argument that many people probably did know what was happening and went along with things because it was easier, etc. and that this was a guilt lessening mechanism; however, I think its very different in the military.  If I'd been in Germany and the military/government for Night of Long Knives I'd carefully weigh my options and orders. 

I think I'm viewing the present case from a mainly legal perspective.  I don't like how little it took to sentence him and that extenuating circumstances were completely thrown away.  I believe in a better and more fair justice system (however that may be my own fantasy).

annakb8

And I want to be clear I don't think WWII Germany, or Europe in general, was just full of assholes. I think that most of the people commiting these terrible acts were just ordinary people who for some reason or another bought into the Nazi agenda or prioritized their own personal happiness above the lives and well being of others, specifically Jews. And I think this is a very uncomfortable concept for a lot of people, because it's hard to say whether or not you would do anything about it in the same situation. I think something like the Holocaust could easily happen again, but I think believing that the majority of participants were forced into their jobs against their will makes it easier to believe all that unpleasantness is firmly in the past which is why some people want to believe it so badly.

shan87

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:a479d179-105e-407b-88ae-193df21afd67">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]And I want to be clear I don't think WWII Germany, or Europe in general, was just full of assholes. I think that most of the people commiting these terrible acts were just ordinary people who for some reason or another bought into the Nazi agenda or prioritized their own personal happiness above the lives and well being of others, specifically Jews. And I think this is a very uncomfortable concept for a lot of people, because it's hard to say whether or not you would do anything about it in the same situation. I think something like the Holocaust could easily happen again, but I think believing that the majority of participants were forced into their jobs against their will makes it easier to believe all that unpleasantness is firmly in the past which is why some people want to believe it so badly.
Posted by annakb8[/QUOTE]

This I agree with. Heck 4 years ago I was in Germany, and Germans are still ashamed and its very sensitive/hard to address topic.

annakb8

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:1016e6b6-16bf-4c20-8a27-0e658f9aded3">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]The t-4 program (really the euthanasia program) makes me sick to my stomach.  I would hold accountable the head doctors and chemists who made those decisions....but again I'd find it hard to justify sentencing guards. I agree with your argument that many people probably did know what was happening and went along with things because it was easier, etc. and that this was a guilt lessening mechanism; however, I think its very different in the military.  If I'd been in Germany and the military/government for Night of Long Knives I'd carefully weigh my options and orders. <strong> I think I'm viewing the present case from a mainly legal perspective.  I don't like how little it took to sentence him and that extenuating circumstances were completely thrown away. </strong> I believe in a better and more fair justice system (however that may be my own fantasy).
Posted by aprovencher21[/QUOTE]

It's totally possible it took too little to sentence him. And I will admit most of my thoughts in this thread are about the concept of the thing in general, not the specifics of this case.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_nazi-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0540776a-9afa-46b9-af56-8941ee48244dPost:a479d179-105e-407b-88ae-193df21afd67">Re: Nazi Thoughts?</a>:
[QUOTE]And I want to be clear I don't think WWII Germany, or Europe in general, was just full of assholes. I think that most of the people commiting these terrible acts were just ordinary people who for some reason or another bought into the Nazi agenda or prioritized their own personal happiness above the lives and well being of others, specifically Jews. And I think this is a very uncomfortable concept for a lot of people, because it's hard to say whether or not you would do anything about it in the same situation. I think something like the Holocaust could easily happen again, but I think believing that the majority of participants were forced into their jobs against their will makes it easier to believe all that unpleasantness is firmly in the past which is why some people want to believe it so badly.
Posted by annakb8[/QUOTE]

Yes, I can agree with this.