I want to talk about something.

AllAboutTheBenjamin

I'm a Christian so it really frosts my cookies when other believers make me look like an intolerant asshole, because I am anything but.

I'm really proud of the story I produced today.

Also, Blue: I hope all the fetuses that the people from the CW thread save with their prayers grow up and are gay.  That would be awesome.

Celles

I saw a button or bumper sticker or t-shirt somewhere that said "If you don't like gays, stop breeding them."  I giggled.

number55

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:dac3d1eb-33a9-49ad-a57f-259dabe06268">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm a Christian so it really frosts my cookies when other believers make me look like an intolerant asshole, because I am anything but. 
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

<div>This times a million.</div>

Anysunrise

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:b8b59c0e-cdce-4465-8c9a-efe00b96ba05">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I want to talk about something. : i don't agree with this.  I'm Catholic, but I'm against some of the beliefs that the Church espouses, even knowing that things are considered "sins."  I think it's possible to draw your own conclusions about things, despite what is mandated.  I agree with Anna that many people are too weak-minded to do this. 
Posted by NatesGirl16[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying all people who are a part of any religion are incapable of forming their own opinions, just that religions which are that strict in their doctrine in my opinion, tend to attract and encourage weak minded people. If every person who was taught homosexuality was a sin and everyone who was was morally corrupt were able to look at it logically, I'm sure gay marriage would be legal by now.

SarahPLiz

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:dac3d1eb-33a9-49ad-a57f-259dabe06268">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm a Christian so it really frosts my cookies when other believers make me look like an intolerant asshole, because I am anything but. I'm really proud of the story I produced today.<strong> Also, Blue: I hope all the fetuses that the people from the CW thread grow up and are gay.  That would be awesome</strong>.
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

<div>My friend has a shirt that says something along the lines of "Don't like gays? Then bitch at the straight people who keep having them." or something like that. It was cool. I wanted one. </div><div>
</div><div>ETA: JINX Celles</div>

NatesGirl16

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:c6771a60-a036-443a-9c57-919013a063bf">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]Well I was reading the posts, and responding to a particular part, namely the idea that I had quoted above that post.  There was a statement that if you disagree with society you should think about how you are wrong.  That's just not true, sometimes society is wrong.  I do agree that religion and legalities do not mix.  My example of religion was that because I do not agree with society doesn't make me wrong.  Being Jewish is not what society does, it doesn't make it wrong.  I havn't actually stated my beliefs on homosexuality here, if you want them you can ask.
Posted by KatyRoseM[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure we're arguing slightly different things here. 

The statement your originally quoted said that if people who are homophobic do not publicly argue their points on this board, it is because they realize that their views and the views of society (i.e. this board) do not mesh.  They are ashamed of their views and realize they are in opposition of others here.  Correct me if I'm misinterpreting, Number.

I don't think anyone is saying that you are wrong if you hold beliefs contrary to social opinion.  What I think everyone is saying, though, is that you shouldn't act in a harmful way based on those beliefs.

ccdaisy

As a Navy veteran I saw the actions of DADT far too often. It was far to easy to out someone you didn't like and ruin a career- I hope for the day when it doesn't matter, because we all use to put on the uniform the same way. Living in GA- I have yet to hear a valid argument against gay marriage that did not envoke religion..sadly there are still enough people who can't think for themselves.

NatesGirl16

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:53d01afa-be92-4ec7-ac95-5841d6c77f95">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I want to talk about something. : I'm not saying all people who are a part of any religion are incapable of forming their own opinions, just that religions which are that strict in their doctrine in my opinion, tend to attract and encourage weak minded people. If every person who was taught homosexuality was a sin and everyone who was was morally corrupt were able to look at it logically, I'm sure gay marriage would be legal by now.
Posted by Anysunrise[/QUOTE]
Agreed.  I misunderstood. 

KatyRoseM

I see what your saying, I still disagree that not sharing your views with those who disagree means you are ashamed of them, it just means you don't want the fight or don't think its worth it.  The OP did seem to be saying that you must be ashamed of them and know it was wrong, sorry if I got that wrong. 

dmiller9274

I don't care for the generalization that people who believe in God, or are involved in organized religion aren't tolerant, accepting, and understanding of other cultures or beliefs. 

staceytaylor0704

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:dac3d1eb-33a9-49ad-a57f-259dabe06268">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>I'm a Christian so it really frosts my cookies when other believers make me look like an intolerant asshole, because I am anything but</strong>. I'm really proud of the story I produced today. Also, Blue: I hope all the fetuses that the people from the CW thread save with their prayers grow up and are gay.  That would be awesome.
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

Same here. Freakin burns me up.

Celles

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:53d01afa-be92-4ec7-ac95-5841d6c77f95">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I want to talk about something. : I'm not saying all people who are a part of any religion are incapable of forming their own opinions, just that religions which are that strict in their doctrine in my opinion, tend to attract and encourage weak minded people. If every person who was taught homosexuality was a sin and everyone who was was morally corrupt were able to look at it logically, I'm sure gay marriage would be legal by now.
Posted by Anysunrise[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

It'd take this a step further and say that religion -- not faith, which is personal, but organized religion, which is largely political -- is more concerned with controlling the masses than it is with providing support or comfort to them.  

Think about it: if you're a huge church with worldwide influence that has amassed a fortune in tithes (in addition to the crusades, blackmail and slave labor, of course...) are you <em>really</em> going to tell people to use contraception, terminate their unplanned pregnancies and experiment with gay or lesbian sex if they're so inclined?  Of course not.  You're going to channel your considerable resources into breeding the next generation of blind followers.  If this means bringing out the big guns (God!  Sin!  Eternal damnation!) to keep the peons in check and the books in the black, then you're probably going to do that as well.

Small-minded or weak-willed people are brainwashed into believing this stuff and accepting it as Truth-with-a-capital-T, and after a few generations "I want you to make lots of babies" turns into "Sodomy is a mortal sin!" and stands on its own.

I'm being somewhat tongue-in-cheek with the delivery, but the sentiment stands.  I believe that there is a human-made motivation for everything that any major religion teaches, and I am continuously surprised and dismayed by how many people are willing and even eager to be duped.

dmiller9274

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:ed2981c1-7216-45df-ba32-e88c25e142dd">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I want to talk about something. : Fur realz. Wasn't it Jesus who was always preaching about tolerance and loving your neighbor. Generalizing that people in organized religion, people who believe in God, etc., are intolerant is as bad as people who think being gay is wrong.
Posted by maratea[/QUOTE]

<div>Yup!  I think blaming religion for the belief that being gay is wrong, is as stupid as saying that all religious people believe it is wrong. </div>

Anysunrise

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:713aae7a-f8fa-4d4e-83a3-d11326630fcf">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't care for the generalization that people who believe in God, or are involved in organized religion aren't tolerant, accepting, and understanding of other cultures or beliefs. 
Posted by dmiller9274[/QUOTE]

I have zero issue with any other person's belief in God. I tried to convey that I was speaking generally and in regards specifically to strictly doctrinated teachings. I don't consider going to church every Sunday and praying equivilant to the people who come to my door telling me that I'm going to hell unless I convert.

 I would love to believe in the general acceptance and tolerance of the country as a whole, but like I said, if it were the case, there wouldn't be such an issue about gay marriage and the like. I'm well aware there are exceptions, I just haven't experienced anything to qualify them other than exceptions.

AllAboutTheBenjamin

I get why Christians, from a religious standpoint, might be wary of gay marriage - but the Bible addresses so many other things that pretty much every Christian engages in.  It's ridiculous.

And I don't like how not allowing gays to legally marry basically sends the message to them that they are second class citizens.

You know what blows?  Where I live, everyone - based on religion, sex, marital or familial status, employment status, age, WHATEVER - everyone is protected by our housing laws - except gays.  You can be evicted or denied housing because you're gay.  Even worse, our last legislature took up the issue to add sexual orientation to the list of protection.  And it was voted down.

Made me sick to my stomach.

number55

Hi!

OP here. I think there are some issues where people don't post their opinions because it isn't worth the fight. But in that case, it isn't that their views are hateful of another group. Blue for instance, she is a conservative hanging out with liberals so she shies away from politics. Nothing wrong with that.

I think it is likely different for homophobes. But maybe that is just me. 

AllAboutTheBenjamin

A lesbian friend of mine has a button that reads: "Homophobia is gay."

number55

How is it different?

People choose to be Democrats. People choose to be Republican. 

Nobody chooses to be gay. Nobody chooses to be black or white, or female or male. We are born the way we are. To have negative feelings towards someone based on these things is WRONG. 

Celles

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:8748cfc5-b874-4ec1-b9b3-bd025ebb24a5">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I want to talk about something. : Yup!  <strong>I think blaming religion for the belief that being gay is wrong</strong>, is as stupid as saying that all religious people believe it is wrong. 
Posted by dmiller9274[/QUOTE]

Given the number of religious organizations speaking out against gay marriage or even the social acceptance of homosexuality (paraphrased from americancatholic.org), I think it's naive to believe that organized religion isn't at least partially to blame for rampant homophobia. 

anna.oskar

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:4749cacb-cd08-483f-a85f-87f5579e3538">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I want to talk about something. : Exactly. It'd take this a step further and say that religion -- not faith, which is personal, but organized religion, which is largely political -- is more about controlling than masses than it is about providing support or comfort to them.  
Posted by Celles[/QUOTE]

I don't feel this is a very fair statement.  Sure,  there are certain groups within any religion that seem to operate that way but there are also some that that teach about the value of humanity, tolerance for those that have differing beliefs, and encourage their members to act and to seek out answers to questions that the religious teachings may bring up.  Maybe I've been lucky .

KatyRoseM

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:1eeec7ce-eed5-419e-96ff-eb044069d0f4">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]How is it different? People choose to be Democrats. People choose to be Republican.  Nobody chooses to be gay. Nobody chooses to be black or white, or female or male. We are born the way we are. To have negative feelings towards someone based on these things is WRONG. 
Posted by number55[/QUOTE]

Yes, but I still don't understand what your saying.  If someone disagrees with you, and the society of the knot they might not want to fight it out, because they think someone was born wrong.  How is that specific desire to avoid a fight different from avoiding a political one?

AllAboutTheBenjamin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:5df21cdd-03b8-40c5-bd5b-25a05703e919">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I want to talk about something. : I may get flamed for this, but I also blame the HIV/AIDS epidemic. When the disease was first publicized, it was touted as a gay man's disease. This set the stage for lots of discrimination and fear mongering. It set up being gay as being dirty and diseased, and we have yet to get away from that, even given scientific evidence that it doesn't just originate from or effect gay people. 
Posted by SarahPLiz[/QUOTE]


I think this is a really interesting point.

ETA - Maybe I'm thinking about this too much, but couldn't the public's perception of gays added to the HIV/AIDS/gay correlate in some way?  About the time that HIV/AIDS was still being learned about, the people contracting it was the people engaging in the most risky behavior - as it is today, of course - but as a gay person in the 80s, where it was still pretty scary to be out in public, I would imagine it would create a lot of personal turmoil, which could lead to acting out in ways to try and suppress those feelings - for a gay man, could that not have been making ahem, connections with other men?  In secret?  ...Am I making my point or am I missing the mark, here?

mehgank

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:029e0426-20c8-4e4f-9360-6f91804bb2f3">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]As a Navy veteran I saw the actions of DADT far too often. It was far to easy to out someone you didn't like and ruin a career- I hope for the day when it doesn't matter, because we all use to put on the uniform the same way. Living in GA- I have yet to hear a valid argument against gay marriage that did not envoke religion..sadly there are still enough people who can't think for themselves.
Posted by ccdaisy[/QUOTE]

Is this ^^ an AE???

K&J64

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:adaf95dc-987e-407a-a8da-f688aed668a2">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]I get why Christians, from a religious standpoint, might be wary of gay marriage - but the Bible addresses so many other things that pretty much every Christian engages in.  It's ridiculous. And I don't like how not allowing gays to legally marry basically sends the message to them that they are second class citizens. You know what blows?  Where I live, everyone - based on religion, sex, marital or familial status, employment status, age, WHATEVER - everyone is protected by our housing laws - except gays.  You can be evicted or denied housing because you're gay.  Even worse, our last legislature took up the issue to add sexual orientation to the list of protection.  And it was voted down. Made me sick to my stomach.
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

That's totally fuucked. But only 19 State and D.C. have housing protect for gay people, of which only 14 include transgendered people.
Only 21 States (and D.C) have employment non-discrimination laws protecting gay citizens. And of those states only 12 include gender identity protection. That means if I move across the boarder to PA where my sister lives and work for a private company and they decide it's against their values to be gay they can fire me, and I would have NO legal recorse.
In only 13 State and D.C. would my FI and I be allowed to jointly adopt a child (or adopt each others birth children).
Only 11 State have laws garanteeing I could visit my FI if she were in a private hospital that does not get Medicaid/Medicare funding (that part is new because of the PPACA).
Only 31 States and D.C. have hate crime laws protecting gays, only 12 including gender identity.
And the number the hurts the most - Only 5 states and D.C. offer civil marriage to same sex couples.

Those numbers are what makes me feel like a second class citizen.

number55

Katy...I don't think I can explain it any differently than I already have. I think that a lot of homophobes (and racists) know that what they believe is not socially acceptable and therefore they pretend that they aren't homophones (and racists) when deep down, they still are. I think this was my main point.

SarahPLiz

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:85bc9c6c-dad9-4da3-8ba7-b163d8bc71d1">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I want to talk about something. : I think this is a really interesting point.
Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

<div>I remember in middle school, if someone said that a person had AIDS, it was assumed that they were gay. When we had a health class that touched on STDs and we learned that all STDs can be spread by any type of sexual contact where bodily fluids are exchanged, there were a lot of scared kids in our class. It was a big anti-drug campaign when they told us you can get AIDS by sharing needles. All of our parents grew up thinking that GRIDS/HIV/AIDS was all about being gay, so that's the impression we got. Its not. That connection needs to be severed completely. </div>

laladypoet

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:d530ce18-b8d2-4021-9c38-d24e7b9aab0c">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I want to talk about something. : i don't blame religion.  I blame people that are too weak-minded to think about these issues and come to a conclusion that doesn't include any kind of hate.
Posted by anna.oskar[/QUOTE]
it's pretty clear the bible is anti-gay. just sayin.

mypalbabs

delurking to say, for the love of all that is holy, please stop referring to the gay "lifestyle".  I don't have a lifestyle.  I have a life.

KatyRoseM

I guess I don't get why it bothers you that they don't bring up their opinions.  If they know they are wrong, its a start, but I don't think that they do.  If they don't know they are wrong, and just don't want to fight, what's wrong with that?

AllAboutTheBenjamin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_want-talk-something?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:0b01a940-fd09-45da-9942-44f4cbefd879Post:040422b9-26e4-4e65-9a99-23ce9a408ebc">Re: I want to talk about something.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I want to talk about something. : That's totally fuucked. But only 19 State and D.C. have housing protect for gay people, of which only 14 include transgendered people. Only 21 States (and D.C) have employment non-discrimination laws protecting gay citizens. And of those states only 12 include gender identity protection. That means if I move across the boarder to PA where my sister lives and work for a private company and they decide it's against their values to be gay they can fire me, and I would have NO legal recorse. In only 13 State and D.C. would my FI and I be allowed to jointly adopt a child (or adopt each others birth children). Only 11 State have laws garanteeing I could visit my FI if she were in a private hospital that does not get Medicaid/Medicare funding (that part is new because of the PPACA). Only 31 States and D.C. have hate crime laws protecting gays, only 12 including gender identity. And the number the hurts the most - Only 5 states and D.C. offer civil marriage to same sex couples. Those numbers are what makes me feel like a second class citizen.
Posted by kcullen37[/QUOTE]

That is seriously fucked up.. :( I'm so sorry.