An interesting Dear Prudence

pixiedust84

I totally agree with Prudence on this one. What a slime ball. Brandi, in this situation you wouldn't divorce? Really? Could you ever have a happy marriage again after that? Or is it worth sacrificing your happiness because you don't believe in divorce? (serious question)

musicalsunlight

Fuuck that. If someone was getting continuously beaten by their husband, and asked if they should get a divorce, I'd say "yes" in a heartbeat and would not tell them that I support their decision to stay with an abusive husband. I'd still be their friend/relative/whatever, but I would not at all condone the idea or be passive about it. Not one bit. 

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:074b08bf-4c66-4fae-85ce-41187b2327f4">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]But they ASKED for advice. 
Posted by LetsHikeToday[/QUOTE]

That doesn't mean I'm comfortable giving them a yes or no answer about whether or not to divorce. 

LetsHikeToday

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:2ca32552-7c53-497a-a3d1-95f701630073">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : That doesn't mean I'm comfortable giving them a yes or no answer about whether or not to divorce. 
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]
I guess that's why you're not Prudence. I mean, if a friend wanted real advice and you really thought she/he should get divorced, you wouldn't say it? 

ggirl2001

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:2ca32552-7c53-497a-a3d1-95f701630073">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : That doesn't mean I'm comfortable giving them a yes or no answer about whether or not to divorce. 
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]<div>But it's not you. You wouldn't give that advice, but a lot of other people would. That's what advice is. The person can then choose to take it or not. 

</div>

pixiedust84

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:2ca32552-7c53-497a-a3d1-95f701630073">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : That doesn't mean I'm comfortable giving them a yes or no answer about whether or not to divorce. 
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]



Good thing you don't write an advice column then!

ETA: or ya know I'll just say everything Hike already said :-)

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:3177c8e7-95a4-4745-9553-807e20b18f15">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : So you would think it but not say it?  Is that a Catholic thing too?  I don't get it.  I apologize if it comes off like I am attacking your religion I do not mean to I just don't understand because it sounds hypocritical to me. 
Posted by Dot Dash[/QUOTE]

No it's fine.  It has nothing to do with my religion.  I am not against divorce either.  Sometimes, the situation warrants it, I agree.  However, I dont' feel it's my place to urge someone to make that big of a decision.  I'll listen to them and support them.  I just wouldn't tell them what to do or what I think they should do.

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:a9a09317-cd0b-47ca-9e13-f297acf579ac">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : For me that would be a dealbreaker for me and that religion.  Because if I, like my friend, found out that I was married to a child molestor, I would divorce twice for emphasis and not give a shiitt what my priest thought about it. 
Posted by Dot Dash[/QUOTE]

It's not that you can't get civilly divorced, you just wouldn't be able to remarry and still be a part of the Catholic faith.  If, for some reason, I realized down the road I couldn't be with FI for a very severe reason, then yeah, I'd divorce him. But I know right now that I'd never be able to remarry and I'm okay with that.

celticmyss

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:603015d7-8aee-485f-8431-fde8782bfb7c">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : No it's fine.  It has nothing to do with my religion.  I am not against divorce either.  Sometimes, the situation warrants it, I agree.  However,<strong> I dont' feel it's my place to urge someone to make that big of a decision</strong>.  I'll listen to them and support them.  I just wouldn't tell them what to do or what I think they should do.
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

<div>Conversely would you not be willing to give someone advice <u>to </u>marry someone? I see those as two somewhat equally life changing decisions. I'm genuinely curious and not trying to be combative. </div>

LetsHikeToday

I still want to know what exactly not believing in divorce means? And if there is anything that could happen that would make Brandi okay with getting one.

musicalsunlight

I think that right there is the epitome of the Midwestern passiveness. Holy shiiit. 

If I don't think my friend is capable of coming to a decision like that without some solid advice, which she is ASKING FOR, because of being the victim of domestic violence, you bet your fucking ass I'm gonna lay down the law clear as day for her. If I just sit back and say "well, I will support you in whatever you decide", then who the hell knows what she'll do. People in those situations do not have clear heads or rational decision making skills. 

brandichamberlain

Tk mobile is eating posts. All I can see is three replies and it says there are almost 50.

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:59fa40ba-d772-4baa-a952-66d34a5766c8">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : Good thing you don't write an advice column then! ETA: or ya know I'll just say everything Hike already said :-)
Posted by pixiedust84[/QUOTE]

Well yeah lol, that's why I don't write an advice column.  It's just one of my things that I won't give advice on because I feel that it's not my place.  I know it's not the norm, but it'sj ust how I feel about it.  My best friend could come up to me tomorrow and say "My husband is abusing me, what do I do?"  I would do everything else under the sun to help her. I'd take her in, call the cops, punch the guy in the nuts (okay only half joking on that one), even send her to a therapist.  But I'd never be able to say "Okay you need to divorce him right now".  Idk why, it's just how I feel.

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:861e700a-cdc5-48a1-9a7c-b61096a47ba8">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : <strong>Conversely would you not be willing to give someone advice to marry someone?</strong> I see those as two somewhat equally life changing decisions. I'm genuinely curious and not trying to be combative. 
Posted by celticmyss[/QUOTE]

Nope. Nor about having kids/not having kids.  Or other big things in life.

LetsHikeToday

What do you think the girl should do Chels?

ggirl2001

Also, if the guy is truly a sociopath, therapy will make the situation worse and make him better at being a sociopath. 

Nebb

giving someone advice =/= finalizing their divorce. You arent forcing anyones hand. Thats absolutely asinine to think you shouldnt give someone advice just because its regarding a big matter.

Girlie1030

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:7751ee3b-6245-4a11-8240-e3570e1fb9e1">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : Nope. Nor about having kids/not having kids.  Or other big things in life.
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

Really?  You wouldn't tell someone considering an abortion she shouldn't have one?

monkeysip

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:9bc274d5-efe8-4eb6-890c-1e1c6769d143">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : How would you extridite yourself from a valid marriage if your spouse becomes and abuser after the wedding without divorcing?  Meaning under what grounds could that marriage now become invalid after the fact? 
Posted by Dot Dash[/QUOTE]

Dot,

If your marriage is valid, you cannot extradite yourself from it sacramentally even if your H later becomes a serial killer.

What I was saying before was that in many cases, if your H (or W if you're a guy) turns out to be an abuser, liar, molester, murderer, whatever, chances are that there was evidence of this before your marriage, and your marriage might be invalidated (you were never really married). 

If it truly is the case that your H or W was completely legit and you both truly meant your vows, then your marriage is valid and nothing can break it up.  This all comes from Jesus' saying about marriage that no man can pull apart what God has put together.  The sacramental bond cannot be broken.

But it's not sinful to get a civil divorce if the circumstances justify it.  The only problem, like chels said, is in remarrying. 

I'm NOT trying to push my religious views on anyone, just explaining where my come from.  Obviously this view isn't the most popular.  If a friend came to me with an abusive husband, I would most likely advise divorce, but I would let her work that out with her own religious views.  Either way, I would want her removed from the abusive situation.

Edit to clarify

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:b21c2701-6a5f-40b1-af8e-78a3e5e27469">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : What is the reason for this view exactly?  Are you saying if God forbid your husband started beating you on your honeymoon and every day thereafter for a couple of years let's say, you would divorce him but never remarry because your church says thet you should shut up and take it because you married him? 
Posted by Dot Dash[/QUOTE]

It's just a part of my faith Dot.  I am vowing before God to be married to him for better or for worse, in sickness and in health until death do us part.  If I have to civilly divorce him to keep myself or my children safe, you bet your ass I will.  But I know in God's eyes, I'm still married to him until one of us dies. (<----------------- just my belief, not saying it has to apply to everyone's beliefs)   And you can't marry one person while you're still married to another.

LetsHikeToday

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:f70ac586-a2a8-4f45-b170-f4d1e991247d">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : Really?  You wouldn't tell someone considering an abortion she shouldn't have one?
Posted by Girlie1030[/QUOTE]
This too.

monkeysip

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:e2df4b0b-a3c7-44a6-b252-a3ea386c4cf0">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : Thanks for the explanation.  To be clear though, if there were no evidence to be found of the problem existing before the marriage the Church expects you to stay married regardless of the current loathesome behavior, right? 
Posted by Dot Dash[/QUOTE]

Sacramentally, yes.  Like I said, civilly, not necessarily.  Civil divorce isn't necessarily sinful.

The Church also believes in grace and the possibility of change for even the worst of people.  The sacrament of marriage actually provides graces, and it's POSSIBLE (not necessarily probable) that a person, even an abuser, could change.

That doesn't mean you need to stay legally married waiting for your abusive spouse to change, hence, the civil divorce. 

chelseamb11

TK ate the post (surprise surprise), but about the pesron who asked me about abortion, that's different.  In my eyes it's no different than telling someone they shouldn't murder their baby that has already been born (just comes with the pro-life view that it's just as much life in the womb as outside of it).

LetsHikeToday

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:be15e07c-0461-4bd2-99ca-20df9051909d">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]TK ate the post (surprise surprise), but about the pesron who asked me about abortion, that's different.  In my eyes it's no different than telling someone they shouldn't murder their baby that has already been born (just comes with the pro-life view that it's just as much life in the womb as outside of it).
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]
But you said you wouldn't give advice about big decisions. That's a pretty big decision. 

Blueyed228

All this Catholic talk is hilarious.

My BFF got an annulment from the church because of this exact reason.  She had been married 2 years, wasnt getting pregnant, and then found paperwork that her H had lied about having a vasectomy.

ggirl2001

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:be15e07c-0461-4bd2-99ca-20df9051909d">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]TK ate the post (surprise surprise), but about the pesron who asked me about abortion, that's different.  In my eyes it's no different than telling someone they shouldn't murder their baby that has already been born (just comes with the pro-life view that it's just as much life in the womb as outside of it).
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]<div>So if a person comes to you for non biased advice, you're saying that you can't give it basically? That's usually what a person wants when they ask for advice. 

</div>

monkeysip

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:8e0c46d8-b967-4cb8-9c97-5a9d26e2729e">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : I hear what you are saying but it just doesn't make sense to me.  Basically it is a slippery slope of smoke and mirrors.  It's ok to divorce civilly but not in the eyes of the church and nothing will happen as long as you don't remarry.  And if you are lucky and someone knew he was a scum bag before hand then we will call it an anullment and just pretend it didn't happen.  Huh???  To me it sounds like a hole lot of hoopla to keep up appearances.  So I guess I don't get it. 
Posted by Dot Dash[/QUOTE]

I get what you're saying, and I think it just comes down to people seeing annulment as a religious form of a divorce, when it's not.  Annulments (which happen civilly too) just say that the marriage never took place.  To get married you actually have to mean your vows and be willing to love and care for your spouse.  If you don't mean them and you're not willing to do those things, then you're just dressing up in fancy clothes and saying a bunch of lies.  You're not really married.  The same is true for other sacraments, like confession.  If you go to the confessional and pretend to be sorry for your sins, when you're really not, you're not really forgiven. 

An annulment requires a lot of investigation, and it's taken very seriously.  Most people who try for an annulment are actually turned down after the investigation.  If it were just a "loophole", the Church would grant them more easily. 

Marriage and divorce, in legal terms, are a different matter.  The Church has no say over whether you're legally married or not.  The Church can only tell you whether you in fact had a valid marriage in a religious sense.

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:17db04ac-fd54-4f49-a32f-744de93c528a">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : But you said you wouldn't give advice about big decisions. That's a pretty big decision. 
Posted by LetsHikeToday[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between "Should H and I start trying to have a kid" and "Should I murder this person".  Huge difference. 

musicalsunlight

I feel like this would be totally different if it weren't a hypothetical situation. I don't know many people who would honestly sit back and say "Just do what you have to do" to that kind of a situation (abusive or crazy fucking husband). Its a lot easier to say you'll be passive when the situation hasn't arisen. 

monkeysip

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:bcbaf336-bc10-4771-bf28-cd707029eb4e">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : Ya this sounds like a really bad version of don't ask don't tell.  I understand the theory but I don't buy into the hype I guess.  I just can't get behind a doctrine that would encourage anyone to stay married to a serial killer, child molester or abuser. <strong> I can not see how possible future redemption of a corrupt soul could possibly trump the safety and wellbeing of a spouse or worse children caught unaware. </strong>
Posted by Dot Dash[/QUOTE]

Hmmm... well, but being civilly divorced would solve the problem of safety/well-being, wouldn't it?  Maybe I'm not understanding.