Witch at a Wedding -blending Lutheran and Wicca, parents an issue

Alex2Plates

Hey Ladies (or Gents), I have a similar situation. My fiance comes from a strictly Lutheran background (he does not practice, but is still at least Agnostic with a Christian lean). I practice traditional witchcraft (Wicca) and always pictured my wedding being less of a white dress-church wedding and more of a incense-and-candles affair. His parents don't really know about my faith, I'm a fairly private person, but I haven't explicitly hidden it (I even attend church with the family when we visit). My hubby-to-be has had a stifled upbringing and his parents do not know about his separation from the organized church.
Here's my boggle:
His mom and dad offered a sum to help us out. They have the money set aside, they're wealthier than my parents. They made the remark that the wedding should be officiated by a member of the clergy, whether he is Catholic, Lutheran, or otherwise, and this is a condition on which their help depends (it is implied that he should be male and Christian).
I have three options here: 1).take the money, thank them, and feel like I am being forced to do the ceremony in a certain way 2). refuse the money on principle, strike a HUGE rift between the family and I possibly resulting in excommunication 3). compromise by finding a local clergy member willing to blend traditions for us.

I want to sit down and discuss this w/ my in-laws, because I don't think they realize that they are hurting my feelings, but my fiance has a very complicated relationship with his family and his faith. He got very upset when I suggested coming clean and telling them I am a Pagan. He is afraid my 'confession' will spark a debate on his faith and he isn't ready to admit to his padres that he isn't their model son.

In my opinion, it's perfectly fair that they should have strings attached to their purses, it's their money and they are giving it to us, so why WOULDN'T they have some control over the ceremony? On the other hand, I don't think it's very nice to have these stipulations. I value truth and honesty, and my parents and I have always been able to talk frankly about this. Is this one of those subjects where I should just try to swallow my pride?

(remember, not taking the money is NOT an option because of the family drama it will cause!)

monkeysip

To be honest, I'm a little worried about you and your fiance's maturity, especially your fiance.

I mean, you both should be willing to share your religious beliefs (or lack of religious beliefs) to his parents.  The fact that he's afraid to admit his beliefs to Mom and Dad tell me that he's very insecure.

You cannot accept this money without being willing to incorporate the parents' wishes into this ceremony.  If that means that they will not give you the money without having a church wedding, then I would DECLINE the money.

To me, it's disrespectful to them, to the church, and to yourselves to get married in a church if that is how you feel.  Your ceremony should reflect the beliefs of you and your fiance.

If his parents are willing to give you the money for a blended ceremony--something that maybe reflects some spiritual/religious leanings, but ultimately still true to how you and FI feel, then that would be okay.  But you won't know until you TALK to them.

Also, you need to make sure that you and FI are in agreement on how religion will play a role in your future marriage.  If you plan to have children, what will you raise them?   Are there certain things you want him to celebrate with you, or vice versa?

Mixed marriages can be successful, but both spouses need to respect and support the religious beliefs of the other spouse.

Good luck to you both!

tldh

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_witch-wedding-blending-lutheran-wicca-parents-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:36Discussion:15498922-72f1-4013-a88a-2e3b6e92e942Post:ec317816-1d6a-4241-a605-6cf3a80eeffe">Witch at a Wedding -blending Lutheran and Wicca, parents an issue</a>:
[QUOTE]Hey Ladies (or Gents), I have a similar situation. My fiance comes from a strictly Lutheran background (he does not practice, but is still at least Agnostic with a Christian lean). I practice traditional witchcraft (Wicca) and always pictured my wedding being less of a white dress-church wedding and more of a incense-and-candles affair. His parents don't really know about my faith, I'm a fairly private person, but I haven't explicitly hidden it (I even attend church with the family when we visit). My hubby-to-be has had a stifled upbringing and his parents do not know about his separation from the organized church. Here's my boggle: His mom and dad offered a sum to help us out. They have the money set aside, they're wealthier than my parents. They made the remark that the wedding should be officiated by a member of the clergy, whether he is Catholic, Lutheran, or otherwise, and this is a condition on which their help depends (it is implied that he should be male and Christian). I have three options here: 1).take the money, thank them, and feel like I am being forced to do the ceremony in a certain way 2). refuse the money on principle, strike a HUGE rift between the family and I possibly resulting in excommunication 3). compromise by finding a local clergy member willing to blend traditions for us. I want to sit down and discuss this w/ my in-laws, because I don't think they realize that they are hurting my feelings, but my fiance has a very complicated relationship with his family and his faith. <strong>He got very upset when I suggested coming clean and telling them I am a Pagan. He is afraid my 'confession' will spark a debate on his faith and he isn't ready to admit to his padres that he isn't their model son.</strong> In my opinion, it's perfectly fair that they should have strings attached to their purses, it's their money and they are giving it to us, so why WOULDN'T they have some control over the ceremony? On the other hand, I don't think it's very nice to have these stipulations. I value truth and honesty, and my parents and I have always been able to talk frankly about this. Is this one of those subjects where I should just try to swallow my pride? (remember, not taking the money is NOT an option because of the family drama it will cause!)
Posted by Alex2Plates[/QUOTE]

You have bigger problems than the wedding ceremony.  I strongly suggest that the two of you begin seeing a marriage counselor before you go any further with the planning.,

ElisabethJoanne

I agree with PPs. I'm in a similar boat in that my Jewish fiance is becoming Catholic and hasn't told his parents yet.

You need to let your fiance handle these things, and you need to make no wedding plans until he does. You can't really set a date until you have a ceremony plan, anyway. He can keep it vague, "Plates comes from a different religious tradition. Would it be OK if we incorporated aspects of her tradition into the ceremony?" or he can bring on the drama. It'll be healing, "I no longer feel committed to Lutheranism, but Plates is very committed to Wicca. I think we should have a Wiccan ceremony, and if that means we don't get your money, so be it."

MyNameIsNot

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_witch-wedding-blending-lutheran-wicca-parents-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:15498922-72f1-4013-a88a-2e3b6e92e942Post:81ac3711-3b12-44af-b59d-2cfcb7cb2695">Re: Witch at a Wedding -blending Lutheran and Wicca, parents an issue</a>:
[QUOTE]To be honest, I'm a little worried about you and your fiance's maturity, especially your fiance. I mean, you both should be willing to share your religious beliefs (or lack of religious beliefs) to his parents.  The fact that he's afraid to admit his beliefs to Mom and Dad tell me that he's very insecure.
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

<div>This.  If he's not ready to be honest with his parents about religion, I would worry about his readiness to marry.  </div><div>
</div><div>I get that its hard to be honest with your parents about not being their perfect image, but it's something everyone has to do one way or another as they become adults.  </div>

monkeysip

To add, this is going to become a much bigger issue than the wedding.

For example, if you and your FI were to have a child, his parents would probably want to know why you were not baptizing him Lutheran.  

Either way, you both will have to be honest about your beliefs to his parents.  Maybe you don't have to indulge every detail of your beliefs, but you should at least express that you do not believe in their christian doctrines, and you have your own beliefs based in a different tradition.

kaitlyn142

Having been there, done that, here's my advice.

First off, you and your FI have to decide together what kind of ceremony you want. Then your FI needs to come clean about his feelings regarding religion with his parents. Yes, it will cause a massive fight, but getting that fight out of the way now instead of later (and it WILL come later) will make planning much easier on you both.

When we told his parents that we were having a Catholic ceremony (they are born again Christians. I think they would have preferred I be Wiccan, honestly), his mother threw a massive hissy fit and tried to forbid it. FI and I were already in agreement about the Catholic ceremony, which made it much easier to stand against the tirade. In our case, money wasn't an issue. We had already also decided that even if they were to offer money, we wouldn't take it, precisely to avoid those strings.

It's been a year since that fight. They still keep trying to convince us that Catholics are evil and being Born Again really would be the most awesomest thing, BUT they finally got used to the idea of a Catholic ceremony and are no longer threatening not to come.

TL:DR, cause the fight so that the healing can happen now. It has to happen sooner or later, and you don't want to live your life regretting that you didn't have a ceremony you felt comfortable with.

Alex2Plates

To kaitlyn142, I think you may have the best view of my situation since you've been there. There's no reluctance on my part to discuss my beliefs, and you're right, the fight will come, it's just a matter of when. From what my friends and many other who have replied are saying, it's clear to me that my fiance needs to come to terms with his differences before we proceed. I totally agree that I want to make it right now, no regets later (and thank you for not jumping down my throat about our plans for children! We don't plan to have any so I didn't think to mention it.)


Thank you for your replies everyone - it helps to get an outsider's perspective of the situation.

Simply Fated

Ok, this is probably really unsolicited advice, so feel free to ignore me...

I know you don't plan on having kids and that is perfectly fine (obviously) but I still think it's a good idea to discuss it, just in case. I'm not saying you'll change your mind, mind I think it is still something every couple should be on the same page about.

If that makes you uncomortable, try this... some religions don't believe animals have a soul. Some do believe that. Some religions don't believe in souls, period. Which will you and your husband raise your puppy as?

Even if you never have kids, puppies or stuffed monkeys, it's always a good idea to be on the same page instead of saying, "Well, we don't have to worry about it because..." Because then it just sounds like an excuse to not have a more in-depth conversation about your plans for an interfaith marriage.

ElleB87

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_witch-wedding-blending-lutheran-wicca-parents-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:15498922-72f1-4013-a88a-2e3b6e92e942Post:6398cb55-0321-4e53-a715-84807b31f18f">Re: Witch at a Wedding -blending Lutheran and Wicca, parents an issue</a>:
[QUOTE]Ok, this is probably really unsolicited advice, so feel free to ignore me... I know you don't plan on having kids and that is perfectly fine (obviously) but I still think it's a good idea to discuss it, just in case. I'm not saying you'll change your mind, mind I think it is still something every couple should be on the same page about. If that makes you uncomortable, try this... some religions don't believe animals have a soul. Some do believe that. Some religions don't believe in souls, period. Which will you and your husband raise your puppy as? Even if you never have kids, puppies or stuffed monkeys, it's always a good idea to be on the same page instead of saying, "Well, we don't have to worry about it because..." Because then it just sounds like an excuse to not have a more in-depth conversation about your plans for an interfaith marriage.
Posted by Simply Fated[/QUOTE]

I second all of this.  H and I both don't want kids at all but we both acknowledge that people change over time and we'd rather make sure we're on the same page now then face major issues late.

toothpastechica

I agree with others who have posted....i will mention, that finding a luthern pastor who will knowingling incorporate wiccan traditions into a ceremony...is going to hard to find. Many pastors are willing to perform non-religious ceremonys, but they are not going to be willing to perform a wiccan ceremony or a ceremony of a different faith then that which they are a representative. So if you do decide to take thier money, and look for a pastor, know you quite likely will have to remove any wiccan elements from your ceremony or not tell the pastor they are wiccan background elements.

calliopeia2013

More, somewhat unsolicted advice- it's a lot easier to find a Wiccan officiant who will incorporate Christian elements than vice versa.  My aunt was actually in a really similar situation to you when she got married to her wife a few years ago- her wife is very Wiccan, and my aunt is a non-practicing Catholic for whom some elements of Christianity are still meaningful.  They did a Wiccan ceremony with a few Christian elements blended in and it was really beautiful.  (But my Catholic grandmother refused to attend, much less pay for anything.  Though more because of the lesbian thing than the Wiccan thing, I think.)  You also might be able to find a UU officiant who could comfortably do a Lutheran-Wiccan blend.

MairePoppy

If you are mature enough to be married, you should be mature enough to choose your own religions, or not choose a religion, at all. Your marriage ceremony and vows should represent your beliefs. They will be the cornerstone of the life you build together.

Furthermore, marriage is considered a sacrament in the Catholic church and I believe in the Lutheran church, too. You can't just sign up for it. You will need to make an appointment with the ministers of whichever church you choose, to go over the marriage requirements. I know the Catholic church requires that the two of you attend a marriage preparation program, one partner must be a baptized Catholic, the couple must be open to having children, and the non-Catholic partner must agree to not interfere with the childrens' religious training. That doesn't sound like the marriage the two of you intend to create. I'm not familiar with the Lutheran requirements.

It's wrong to take his parents money under false pretenses. And they shouldn't be expected to pay for something that is contrary to their beliefs. You may be able to find a non-denominational minister that is willing to incorporate your beliefs along with some Christian elements, if that is what you want to do. But please be true to yourselves. You shouldn't start your marriage off with a lie.

Good luck to you, you have a lot to work out. I hope you will keep us updated because a lot of couples seem to have problems with religious differences between them and their parents.

SCogs18

You and your FI need to decide what kind of ceremony you want to have.  Once you two are in agreement, present a united front to his parents.  I would suggest a blended ceremony, in an attemptto make his parents happy (I can't imagine them footing the bill for a 100% Wiccan ceremony).

You will struggle to find a pastor who will incorporate Wiccan aspects into the marriage ceremony--- heck!  It took me 3 months to find a minister who would marry FI and I because we were getting married in a local chapel and not in our home church and we're both Christians (most ministers won't marry you if you aren't a member of their congrigation, don't get me started on that).

Once you guys come to a decision, expect a fight with his parents.  They will be upset.  If they are unwilling to compromise, then you must compromise by either not taking the money and having the ceremony you want or taking the money and follow their guidelines.  It's not fair, but it's how it is.  Sorry

aragx6

I think you've gotten some really good advice above about FI and his parents and that situation, so I won't add on to that.

But I will second calliopeia's suggestion to look into a Unitarian Universalist officiant -- it might work as a decent middle ground for you and I've found them to be open and willing to work within all faiths.

Alex2Plates

Thank you guys. My fiance has calmed down about this somewhat and I think we're ready to talk to his parents. We're not going to take the money they offered without having a sit-down with them. We've been building a plan about what kind of ceremony we want; I totally agree that we need a united front before discussing it with his 'rents.

Just to clarify: we will not be getting married in a church, and his parents are okay with that. They did want a full church wedding when we were first discussing this, but they have really loosened up. I think the suggestions to find a UU officiant are very valid. His parents have even said that the officiant could be of any Christian background (I understand that UU doesn't necessarily mean Christian) as long as it's a male.

We did talk about kids, many times, in fact. My fiance and I have been together for more than four years. Although I am a strong believer in my faith, I'm not what you would call a religious person, so if I had kids, I don't think I would teach them about prayer unless they were curious. Anyway, it's a moot point; I have health problems that prevent me from having children.

tanyanubin

I have 2 experiences with this issue. My own marriage, for which my husband wanted me to convert to Judaism from lapsed Catholic, and my daughter's first engagement, during which her fiance bullied her relentlessly about having a religious ceremony, even though he knew for years that she did not want that. My marriage worked. I converted out of curiousity.  I am atheist, so I did that out of respect for him and out of intellectual curiosity. Turned out that he only wanted that because of pressure from his own father. He grew up a little, and we evolved a way to deal with all of this during out marriage, with our families and in raising our children. (we gave them free reign to follow any religion they wanted to) My daughter's fiance, however, was a bully. His mother was as well, and he followed her lead on everything. That engagement did not last. Good luck to you. My advice, from 30 years of experience, is to always respect other peoples' faith, but to never let anyone bully you into doing something you aren't comfortable with. On a practical note, you might blend some Wiccan traditions into your ceremony and imply that they are Celtic (which many are). My daughter is doing handfasting at her ceremony, as a nod to our Irish roots.

Turtle&Star

My FI is a semi-retired Pagan, formerly born again Christian, raised mainline Protestant; I was raised by vaguely hippie parents with a sort of "spiritual but not religious" vibe, and I lean nondemoninationally monotheistic now, if that makes any sense. Our parents have all, luckily, been very laid back about what kind of ceremony we have, but I feel your pain.

I just wanted to echo a couple of practical suggestions that people have made here that are also things we are doing for our ceremony: first, we have found a UU minister to officiate who is open to incorporating elements of both of our traditions. Second, and along the lines of tanyanubin's suggestions, we are planning to include a part of the ceremony where the minister wraps our hands together (not a full-on handfasting) - it feels "Pagan enough" to make FI happy, but since it's also an element of some Celtic church weddings - and especially since they did it at the royal wedding :-) - it doesn't *scream* pagan, which makes me happy. Plus, FI says it's ok with him if the minister talks about God. FI and I had a long talk about this early on, though, and the other really core important suggestion people have made here along THOSE lines is: work it out with him FIRST, then present a united front to your parents.

That last part is the tl/dr version, I guess. :-)

Oh, also, you might want to visit the "interfaith weddings" board - there's been a number of Pagan/non-Pagan threads over there, as I recall.

harpsdesire

A tiny thing I don't think people have addressed-- As sucky as the 'money with strings' thing is, I don't think the in-laws are trying to hurt, persecute or offend you, since it sounds like they are genuinely unaware of your religion.  They may quite likely have assumed that you're just uninterested in religious things or might even assume that since you went to church with them you're some other 'flavor' of Christian.

The Wiccan thing may well come as a huge shock to them, and they might be embarassed about the things they expected of your wedding, since they were based on innaccurate assumptions to begin with.