Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?

Nickie431

Can anyone provide a completely secular justification for opposing same-sex marriage?  This question came up on a board on The Nest, and all the posts agreed that there is not a solid argument that does not involve God.  While I realize in general we cannot and should not seek to separate out our faith because our faith should permeate all other aspects of life and influence political/social views, faith-driven arguments are not compelling to a large group of people.  So, I'd love to hear what you ladies have!

Riss91

Do you mean same-sex marriage (ie giving homosexual couples the same legal priveledges)  or homosexual acts themselves?

As far as homosexual acts are concerned, you can go back to simple science/nature. Life requires a male and a female for it to be perpetuated throughout time (yes I know there are like .01% of living organisms that can reproduce on their own). Why do we have men and women. Because there is a need for 2 separate sexes in nature in order for it to continue naturally.

ElisabethJoanne

For the civil marriage issues, see the arguments for the defendants in Perry, the lawsuit about the amendment to California's constitution "banning" gay marriage. The legislation was called Prop. 8. You can read about it from here 'til kingdom come.

Also, the Harvard Journal of Law and Social Policy ran an article on the same in the Winter or Spring 2011 issue.

firstthings.com writes about it tons, too.

Personally, though, I think they all conflate sacramental marriage with civil marriage, though I think States do have a right to define civil marriage however the state wants.

lalaith50

I know there is a slippery slope argument... What about when 3 people want to get married? Then what if someone wants the state to legally recognize their "marriage"  to an animal? Then what about if someone wants to "marry" a child?

ootmother2

I don't really have any strong feelings about civil marriage for same sex couples.

There is a seperation of church and state in this county so I think it's a matter of state's rights to govern it.    I don't have the right to judge others for their sexual orientation.

::shrug::

monkeysip

Nickie,

I don't have time to make a thorough argument right now, but the basic idea is that the only reason the state would license a marriage is if marriage is of some social benefit to the nation.  The state doesn't go around handing out "friendship" certificates just so that two friends can have a public recognition of their friendship.  A marriage certificate is supposed to serve some kind of social good.

So, what is the social good of marriage?  The only tangible good possible is that of the family, essentially producing and raising children, or rather, more good citizens for society. 

Homosexual couples, by their nature, are not able to reproduce, and some might argue (this is debateable), properly raise children. 

The best environment to raise children, and the only environment in which to produce them, is within the stable confines of a marriage between a man and a woman. 

And of course, sterile couples are different because the issue is of circumstances, not nature.  Homosexual couples by the very nature of their actions cannot produce children together, whereas it's at least logically possible between a sterile heterosexual couple. 

Again, like I said, there's a lot more it, but that's the basic point.  You really have to ask yourself, if marriage is just for people in love, why would the government even be involved?  What does the government care if you're in love or not, and why would it license your love and give you social benefits for it?

Snippylynn

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_secular-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:30ac7cdd-240c-43ea-9d18-77fb12005556Post:63d2f1bf-4ffb-4d51-af5a-ce772bbd7a05">Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?</a>:
[QUOTE]I know there is a slippery slope argument... What about when 3 people want to get married? Then what if someone wants the state to legally recognize their "marriage"  to an animal? Then what about if someone wants to "marry" a child?
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]
Hi. You're an awful human being. <div>
</div><div>God is about love and happiness, not hatred. </div>

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_secular-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:30ac7cdd-240c-43ea-9d18-77fb12005556Post:df68d27f-9a3f-4b87-9117-5a5600622d0f">Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage? : Hi. You're an awful human being.  God is about love and happiness, not hatred. 
Posted by Snippylynn[/QUOTE]

And calling someone an awful human being is love?

Snippylynn

Well, I'm not a Christian, so... I don't have to try and dress anything up.

musicalsunlight

A completely secular argument begins with the fact that the united states is based off a constitution that separates church and state. So. If two legal aged, consenting adults, want to enter into a contract that binds them to each other and allows extra benefits for their future, they should be able to do so regardless of gender. The constitution's 14th amendment allows for equal rights among all people and banning same sex marriage does not comply with that. Also, the comment regarding the "slippery slope" argument is extremely offensive. Adult humans, as Cfas said, are completely different than animals or children who are incapable of making such decisions. And for real if someone tries to claim that gay people can't be as capable of parents, well, that is completely off base and wildly untrue. Let's try thinking of all the terrible straight parents out there, shall we?

Calypso1977

genuine question here, not being snarky.

other than being able to obtain family health insurance, what legal rights are gay couples denied by not being married?  you actually pay a marriage penalty on your taxes if you are married, so that's not a benefit.  you can draft up health care proxies so that a person can make decisions on your behalf should you become incapacitated.  you can sign loans together, buy a house together, buy cars, etc.  you can name anyone you want as a beneficiary in a will, life insurance, investments, etc.  honestly, other than filing my taxes jointly, i saw no changes when i got legally married. 

is it just to be able to say we are married?  i know gay couples who have had commitment ceremonies and refer to themselves as married even though everyone knows they are legally not married, but we all feel that they are based upon how they chose to make their commitment to each other.

musicalsunlight

Really, calypso? There are plenty. Surviving spouse social security benefits, veteran and military benefits, estate planning benefits, Employment benefits, immigration benefits... Yeah there are a lot besides being able to say "we are married".

baystateapple

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_secular-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:30ac7cdd-240c-43ea-9d18-77fb12005556Post:0272cec9-8ae4-40dd-8ce8-a455fdea3389">Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?</a>:
[QUOTE]genuine question here, not being snarky. other than being able to obtain family health insurance, what legal rights are gay couples denied by not being married?  you actually pay a marriage penalty on your taxes if you are married, so that's not a benefit.  you can draft up health care proxies so that a person can make decisions on your behalf should you become incapacitated.  you can sign loans together, buy a house together, buy cars, etc.  you can name anyone you want as a beneficiary in a will, life insurance, investments, etc.  honestly, other than filing my taxes jointly, i saw no changes when i got legally married.  i<strong>s it just to be able to say we are married?</strong>  i know gay couples who have had commitment ceremonies and refer to themselves as married even though everyone knows they are legally not married, but we all feel that they are based upon how they chose to make their commitment to each other.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

Why shouldn't two people who love each other be able to get married "just to be able to say we are married"?  How would you feel if the government said to you and your H "that's very nice that you love each other and you want to make that commitment, but you don't fit the qualifications that we have for a legitimate marriage.  You two are welcome to a have a civil union, but you can't call yourselves married."  Especially when, as you put it, legally it's very similar to marriage, the government is just denying them the right to completely legitimize their commitment, just because it doesn't "fit the criteria". 

musicalsunlight

Also, just because you don't see benefits right now after you got married doesnt mean they aren't there. Many only arise in specific situations, but because you are straight, you will never have to worry about being denied.

Calypso1977

Surviving spouse social security benefits, veteran and military benefits, estate planning benefits, Employment benefits, immigration benefits

didnt think of veteran/military.

i did mention employment in terms of the health insurance piece.  i know that's a big one for many.

estate planning they can do without being married.  you can will/deed your estate to anyone.

do people get SS benefits when their spouse dies?  I thought this was only paid out if there were children under 18.  i remember when my dad died, my mom did get monthly checks becuase my sister and i were over 18.  so if the couple had a child, and the child was legally adopted by the gay couple, if one died, would the child get the SS benefits??  or if the child was born to one of the women, lets say, would the child only get the benefit if the birth mother died?

baystateapple

Andplusalso, it's very rich of some people, who come from the privileged viewpoint of being able to marry the ones they love without governmental interference or jumping through any hoops, to say that there aren't any real differences between a civil union and a marriage.

musicalsunlight

Yes you can plan your estate without being married but there are caps on amounts that don't apply to the death tax that you can only utilize if you are married. You can transfer large amounts to your surviving spouse to avoid the death tax and you can't do that to just anyone. And yes you can get soc security benefits as a surviving spouse if your deceased spouse had an eligible work record. In addition, retired married couples can recieve half the amount of one spouses benefits instead of their own if the other spouse earned significantly more, so they end up getting more money per month. Also, filing jointly often gives a better tax return or lessens the amount you owe than filing separately. Not always, but it is much better as a general rule.

musicalsunlight

I should note that those are all federal benefits so currently no same sex couples, regardless of if they marry in a state that has legal gay marriage, can take advantage of them currently.

Riss91

I wish the govt would get out of the marriage business completely - stop basing any of this stuff off of romantic love. It makes absolutely no sense. It is completely unfair to many people....

lalaith50

[QUOTE] Hi. You're an awful human being.  God is about love and happiness, not hatred. 
Posted by Snippylynn[/QUOTE]
Well aren't you a peach.<div>
</div><div>Please not that the original question was simply "CAN anyone provide a completely secular justification..." And all I did was provide a *possible* argument. I never said I ascribed to it.</div><div>
</div><div>Maybe you should work on your critical reading skills...</div>

musicalsunlight

So you don't think that married people should have nonromantic benefits at all, Riss? I guess I am confused by your comment.

Calypso1977

Yes you can plan your estate without being married but there are caps on amounts that don't apply to the death tax that you can only utilize if you are married. You can transfer large amounts to your surviving spouse to avoid the death tax and you can't do that to just anyone.

hmm, that i definitely didnt know.

i honestly dont put much thought into SS tho - my strategy is to plan for it not being there, then if i do get something, great.  

i do agree completely tho that whatever is decided on gay marriage (allowed or not allowed) it should be national, rather than state by state.  i firmly believe in the 10th amendment, but at the same time, it doesnt make sense to have something like gay marriage allowed in one state but not another.  the way it is now, even if all 50 states adopted it, it still wouldnt solve the federal level problem. 

musicalsunlight

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_secular-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:30ac7cdd-240c-43ea-9d18-77fb12005556Post:33ca27ba-92f2-4c81-9e61-21f7beb0e277">Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?</a>:
[QUOTE]Yes you can plan your estate without being married but there are caps on amounts that don't apply to the death tax that you can only utilize if you are married. You can transfer large amounts to your surviving spouse to avoid the death tax and you can't do that to just anyone. hmm, that i definitely didnt know. i honestly dont put much thought into SS tho - my strategy is to plan for it not being there, then if i do get something, great.   i do agree completely tho that whatever is decided on gay marriage (allowed or not allowed) it should be national, rather than state by state.  i<strong> firmly believe in the 10th amendment, but at the same time, it doesnt make sense to have something like gay marriage allowed in one state but not another.  the way it is now, even if all 50 states adopted it, it still wouldnt solve the federal level problem. 
</strong>Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]


I agree with you on the bolded. Like I said, the benefits I mentioned are all federal so it doesn't matter which states have legalized it as of now.

Also, I admit that I was on my phone before so I didn't see the full title of the thread. I thought it was just secular justification too, so I wasn't reading completely. Heh.

Snippylynn

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_secular-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:30ac7cdd-240c-43ea-9d18-77fb12005556Post:53c549f9-cc3e-4a18-b6c1-49173b738cc1">Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?</a>:
[QUOTE]I wish the govt would get out of the marriage business completely - stop basing any of this stuff off of romantic love. It makes absolutely no sense. It is completely unfair to many people....
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]
Actually the reason the government is involved is DUE to all of the benefits and legalities. The church certainly can't seem to be fair, so that's when government needs to step in. There are too many people who think it is the job of the church to regulate marriage. It's not. 

Ciardasully

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_secular-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:30ac7cdd-240c-43ea-9d18-77fb12005556Post:d50ef352-812a-437b-991f-0640710168e3">Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?</a>:
[QUOTE]Well, I'm not a Christian, so... I don't have to try and dress anything up. ;)
Posted by Snippylynn[/QUOTE]

If you are not a Christian, then how to you know what God is?  Just sayin'

jessicabessica

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_secular-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:30ac7cdd-240c-43ea-9d18-77fb12005556Post:f79ed701-33b7-447e-b7b1-e20bf4768009">Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage? : Why shouldn't two people who love each other be able to get married "just to be able to say we are married"?  How would you feel if the government said to you and your H "that's very nice that you love each other and you want to make that commitment, but you don't fit the qualifications that we have for a legitimate marriage.  You two are welcome to a have a civil union, but you can't call yourselves married."  Especially when, as you put it, legally it's very similar to marriage, the government is just denying them the right to completely legitimize their commitment, just because it doesn't "fit the criteria". 
Posted by baystateapple[/QUOTE]

On this point, I would encourage you (general you, although directed at Calypso's question) to read the early state court opinions re: same-sex marriage.  I think the one I am mainly thinking of is the Mass decision, <a rel="nofollow" href="http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ma-supreme-judicial-court/1447056.html">http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ma-supreme-judicial-court/1447056.html</a>

kgrawedding

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_secular-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:30ac7cdd-240c-43ea-9d18-77fb12005556Post:0272cec9-8ae4-40dd-8ce8-a455fdea3389">Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?</a>:
[QUOTE]other than being able to obtain family health insurance, what legal rights are gay couples denied by not being married? 
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

Also hospital visitation and medical decision rights.

lalaith50

hmm...sorry, I'm not really feeling like reading 20+ pages of legal writing right now... care to summarize?

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_secular-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:30ac7cdd-240c-43ea-9d18-77fb12005556Post:915706ef-6f74-4c25-a10c-27c5398effaf">Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage? : I agree with you on the bolded. Like I said, the benefits I mentioned are all federal so it doesn't matter which states have legalized it as of now. Also, I admit that I was on my phone before so I didn't see the full title of the thread. I thought it was just secular justification too, so I wasn't reading completely. Heh.
Posted by musicalsunlight[/QUOTE]

musical, I wasn't aware that federal benefits were denied when I said that  it should be up to the states to make the law here. 

Same sex marriage is legal here and I never gave it a whole lot of thought.  Perhaps I should read up more on the subject.   I don't think that the churches should be brought into civil matters though

musicalsunlight

It's not really that difficult to read, but whatev. I don't know if that is the same court opinion as the one I read, but the court spent a great deal of time taking all of the anti-same sex marriage defenses and ripping them to shreads. Saying it wasn't a threat to families, etc.

jessicabessica

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_secular-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:30ac7cdd-240c-43ea-9d18-77fb12005556Post:5659cfb5-30e1-462f-8863-b7e247868f31">Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Secular Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage? : musical, <strong>I wasn't aware that federal benefits were denied </strong>when I said that  it should be up to the states to make the law here.  Same sex marriage isleal here and I never gave it a whole lot of thought.  Perhaps I should read up more on the subject.   I don't think that the churches should be brought into civil matters though
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

That's DOMA.