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Re: :: agape ::

  • edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: :: agape :: : Thats unfortunate about your old parish. About amazing grace: actually, I've seen a lenghty dissertation on why it isn't theologically sound. I don't care for it either, however for different reasons. I think the song is giving praise to God.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    I'm curious...  Why is Amazing Grace not theologically sound?  It's one of my favorite hymns.  (I did grow up Protestant)
  • Hope61Hope61 member
    500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    This thread was already 20some posts in when I signed on, but I want to go back to the beginning briefly just to add my .02...

    I started attending the Latin Mass my sophomore year of college (and more regularly the next year when I had a car), so about 4 years ago. I love it, and our wedding Mass will be a solemn High Mass--hooray! One thing I don't think was mentioned... whenever we attend Mass, its not all about "me" and what I "get" out of it. Sure, certain kinds of music may draw me in more than others. Or the amount of participating I get to do in terms of Mass responses may make a big difference in my perceptions of whats happening. BUT... the Mass is our highest form of worship, our best prayer to God. We need to focus on how *best* to worship Him. Are the prayers and motions of the Mass reflective of what makes us comfortable and draws us in, or are they based on our ("our" being the Church as a whole as developed over almost 2000 years) best attempts at what is most pleasing to God? Does our choice in music stem from what feels good, or is it a song/hymn that was written by a Catholic composer who wrote his/her music with the express desire and purpose of praise to God? I'm not saying this makes one Mass better than another--I attend a Novus Ordo Mass every day of the week but Sundays, and it is a beautiful Mass. I'm sure there are more modern songs that are truly about God and not "me, my feelings, my musical taste," just as I'm sure there are classical Mass settings that were written more for the advancement of the composer than for God.
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    It's so interesting how there are so many here that are stating the same thing I am, sometimes in a much stronger way, yet I still am the person to be the subject of rude comments. Oh well, I'll take it for the Lord I guess. Thanks for whoever calls it out, because I don't want to escalate it or respond emotionally. I'm not playing that game. This particular comment didn't even make sense anyway.

    Regarding Lifeteen...it is an approved movement (and actually getting a higher ranking than "movement" in the vatican). Just as I don't blame the church for the small amount of priests who abuse their roles, or all teachers because of the abusers that exist there, or and so on and so on, I don't blame Lifeteen either. It's distanced itself from him long ago. Lifeteen is the avenue of many vocations in our diocese

    By the way, the founder was not tossed from the priesthood for improper sexual conduct. He was put on leave for allegations. (No I'm not denying he was guity, but there is actually a lot more to that story too).  He was laicized for starting his own church.
  • edited December 2011
    Wow, I can't even pretend to have the time and energy to fully engage in the OP and line of dialogue ya'll are engaged in. A few thoughts swirling in my head though.

    As a youth minister, I'm constantly trying to invite young people into a relationship with our Lord, especially through the Blessed Sacrament. As Catholics, we are doing a terrible job of handing on the faith - sociologically researched reality. People, especially teens misunderstand Catholicism because of people who teach opinion as doctrine, but even more reject religiosity because of hypocrites. I think of Jesus rebuking the disciples for not letting the children come to Him in the Gospels - we are all God's children and we need to lovingly call people back to our Lord and His will, but not in ways that make them feel blocked from God - He isn't ours to put in a box. We are called to lead people closer to our Lord and into relationship with the Most Holy Trinity, not judge their actions - it's an entirely different paradigm from what you're saying Riss. One, IMHO is out of legalism like the Pharisees, the other is from a Sermon on the Mount mentality.

    And oot, I don't even know where to begin. You're using a redherring fallacy to personally attack agape (a strawman fallacy) when you know nothing about what percentage Catholic she is. Further, I've never seen one post from you that would ever encourage anyone to be Catholic because of your shining and loving example on these boards - I think I remember reading something in the Bible about taking care of one's own beam before pointing out a splinter in another's eye. Dale Fusheck (sp?), one of three founders, has been away from the Life Teen movement for a LONG time and the leaders of the LT organization are faithfully obedient to every action Bishop Olmsted and the Pope have taken in regards to Dale.

    Alright, I need to go do some "wood work" of my own, but I just really wish we'd all take a look at the bigger picture and ask ourselves if we're inviting people to the Truth, or pushing them away with it. Same Truth, different approach.

    In Christ's Peace, Linz
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  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]It's so interesting how there are so many here that are stating the same thing I am, sometimes in a much stronger way, yet I still am the person to be the subject of rude comments. Oh well, I'll take it for the Lord I guess. Thanks for whoever calls it out, because I don't want to escalate it or respond emotionally. I'm not playing that game. This particular comment didn't even make sense anyway. Regarding Lifeteen...it is an approved movement (and actually getting a higher ranking than "movement" in the vatican). Just as I don't blame the church for the small amount of priests who abuse their roles, or all teachers because of the abusers that exist there, or and so on and so on, I don't blame Lifeteen either. It's distanced itself from him long ago. Lifeteen is the avenue of many vocations in our diocese By the way, the founder was not tossed from the priesthood for improper sexual conduct. He was put on leave for allegations. (No I'm not denying he was guity, but there is actually a lot more to that story too).  He was laicized for starting his own church.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    Sorry  but if you research the facts, you will find that indeed the founder was tossed for sexual misconduct.  That's a fact, not an insult casually tossed out.

    I know that the Convent of the Sacred Heart girls are forbidden to enter there and they don't take a stand like that casually.

    Out of over 100 CSH schools in the US, not ONE allows their students there.  gee, I wonder why.

    ETA:  I't's not a red herring falacy. Try researching the group before commenting.
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: :: agape :: : Sorry  but if you research the facts, you will find that indeed the founder was tossed for sexual misconduct.  That's a fact, not an insult casually tossed out. I know that the Convent of the Sacred Heart girls are forbidden to enter there and they don't take a stand like that casually. Out of over 100 CSH schools in the US, not ONE allows their students there.  gee, I wonder why. ETA:   I't's not a red herring falacy. Try researching the group before commenting.
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    Enter where?

    It is a red herring because I've spoken nothing but what the church teaches...

    btw, she DID research the group, as I have. Really , please do some research. As has been said here, they've distanced themselves greatly from the founder, and it teaches everything in union with the magisterium.
  • LibrarydragonLibrarydragon member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I'm not a cradle Catholic, my formative Catholic years were spent in Italy, and my husband is a deacon. I find it interesting that some critiques of liturgy are what takes place at St. Peter's. The choir is side front and communion is often distributed by EMs. I've tried Latin Masses in many cities and have found all but one lacking. The people didn't respond, there were many people praying the rosary (which is a private devotional that shouldn't be taking place in the midst of the communal celebration of the Eucharist), kids with juice boxes, etc. One reason I couldn't ever really commit to the Latin Mass is the historical reason why Latin became the liturgical language is that it was the common language of the people (the vulgate). The switch to the common language of the people was in keeping with that same spirit.
    Mother of the Groom
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    I seriously doubt that an international school system like CSH would forbid their students to go there without cause.

    When that warning was issued, I did research Lifeteen and I certainly wasn't impressed
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    AND may I point out that CSH grads have a pretty impresive group to judge.  Diane Feinstien, Jane Byrne, first female mayor of Chicago, not to mention a few
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]I seriously doubt that an international school system like CSH would forbid their students to go there without cause. When that warning was issued, I did research Lifeteen and I certainly wasn't impressed
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    Again, "enter" where? Go where?
  • LibrarydragonLibrarydragon member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: :: agape :: : I'm curious...  Why is Amazing Grace not theologically sound?  It's one of my favorite hymns.  (I did grow up Protestant)
    Posted by GulfCoaster[/QUOTE]

    My husband and I go around about this. He doesn't like the implication of only grace and the line about being a wretch. I don't have a problem as for me it echoes the prayer, "Lord, I am not worthy, but only say the word and I shall be healed."
    Mother of the Groom
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    Either way, there is an extremely liberal anti-catholic "catholic" school that doesn't like their students to be involved at Lifeteen because it actually teaches the faith.

    The Vatican itself has approved the movement, which is becoming an offical lay association of the faithful.


  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: :: agape :: : Again, "enter" where? Go where?
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    What are you not understanding?

    CSH forbids their students Lifeteen, I believe I said that already
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    I'd have to do a lot of digging to find that theological essay on Amazing Grace. I believe I saw it on Catholic answers forums.

    But the word "wretch" is often associated with the Calvinistic belief that humans are devoid of all good, which is not Catholic. Catholics believe humans are created good, only twisted by sin, and can never be completely void of good.

    One of the other faults of amazing grace is the once saved only saved premise.

    These are only loosely referred to, not specific, so it can be interpreted in many ways, which is why its not completely off target. As a music director, I don't like playing anything that leaves any kind of misinterpretation of doctrine or belief.


  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]Either way, there is an extremely liberal anti-catholic "catholic" school that doesn't like their students to be involved at Lifeteen because it actually teaches the faith. The Vatican itself has approved the movement, which is becoming an offical lay association of the faithful.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    I simply do not understand this at all.

    Yes, the CSH schools are Jesuit oriented but they are the best Catholic education internationally and that is, IMO, a pretty good basis for a good Catholic life.

    "extreemly liberal anti catholic "you're really too much to even try to wrap my brain around

    99% of the Catholics I know would love to have their daughters educated there.
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: :: agape :: : I simply do not understand this at all. Yes, the CSH schools are Jesuit oriented but they are the best Catholic education internationally and that is, IMO, a pretty good basis for a good Catholic life. "extreemly liberal anti catholic "you're really too much to even try to wrap my brain around 99% of the Catholics I know would love to have their daughters educated there.
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    You still haven't answered my question...

    for the 3rd time...you said CSH doesn't let their girls "enter there" I'm asking what are they not allowed to enter?

    I wasn't talking about CSH, I was speaking of a very liberal anti-catholic "catholic" school where I am. They call themselves catholic, but do not teach the faith, nor encourage any parish participation, or teach any true catholic doctrine. And they don't encourage their students to go to lifeteen.

    So your comment about CSH not allowing it doesn't mean anything.

    to which I added the vatican approves it officially, and thats what really matters.
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    The vatican isn't around to educate young ladies, Convent of the Sacred Heart is.

    Over the course of their education (in this case K - 12) the school supports or does not approve their outside activities.  As with a boarding girl (NYC doesn't have borders) they can approve or disapprove of activities as they see fit.  Lifeteen is one they do not allow their girls to participe in.  I dont even know where Lifeteen is in NYC as if the school didn't allow it, I found that good reason to follow.

    They have approved activities involving all religions, even using local Jewish centers for mixed activites.  There are mixed dances with the boys schools in the area that are considered suitable activities.  They do Habitats for Humanity with Trinity school.  That's just a couple.

    Not only do I consider Teenlife somewhat inappropriate, I seriously question someone who is blind to the fact that their founder left in disgrace.  That;s not hearsay, it's fact.


    ETA: switched nouns
  • lalaith50lalaith50 member
    1000 Comments Third Anniversary 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    teenlife? 
    I think we were talking about Life Teen.
    Anniversary
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]teenlife?  I think we were talking about Life Teen.
    Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

    sorry, I misstyped that

    Lifeteen
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]The vatican isn't around to educate young ladies, Convent of the Sacred Heart is. Over the course of their education (in this case K - 12) the school supports or does not approve their outside activities.  As with a boarding girl (NYC doesn't have borders) they can approve or disapprove of activities as they see fit.  Teenlife is one they do not allow their girls to participe in.  I dont even know where Teenlife is in NYC as if the school didn't allow it, I found that good reason to follow. They have approved activities involving all religions, even using local Jewish centers for mixed activites.  There are mixed dances with the boys schools in the area that are considered suitable activities.  They do Habitats for Humanity with Trinity school.  That's just a couple. Not only do I consider Teenlife somewhat inappropriate, I seriously question someone who is blind to the fact that their founder left in disgrace.  That;s not hearsay, it's fact.
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]


    Whoa,....you apparently don't even read the stuff I write before you go off on me now.

    Scroll up, I said I wasn't denying he was guilty. and he was laicized for doing wrong things ...either way.

    And again, you still have not answered my question.

    And I care about what the vatican approves of, because thats what matters.
  • Hope61Hope61 member
    500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]teenlife?  I think we were talking about Life Teen.
    Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]
    And funny thing, before that there was a reasonable, charitable discussion of the Catholic Mass, judgment, Mass music, etc.

    OOT, why do you insist on turning everything into an argument against Agapecarrie? Sure, Lifeteen's founder turned out to be a bad egg. How is that relevant to any of the previous discussion? This was a great discussion until you made it all about Agape and her involvement in Lifeteen.
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  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    So I would go by the opinion of an international school system for the guidance for activities such as afterschool activiites, camps and the like. 

    The Vatican isn't here to guide daily life but thankfully there are are parishs and schools to guide parents.  and THAT is what I choose to follow
  • Hope61Hope61 member
    500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]I'm not a cradle Catholic, my formative Catholic years were spent in Italy, and my husband is a deacon. I find it interesting that some critiques of liturgy are what takes place at St. Peter's. The choir is side front and communion is often distributed by EMs. [/QUOTE]

    If I remember correctly, the choir is kind of tucked off to the side there? So its not a visual focal point. It makes sense for them to be closer up in such a large church too, even in my city's cathedral here there is often a big dissonance on timing between the choir in the back and the priest and people sitting near the front. As for EM's.... one major critique is that they are only supposed to be used when necessary (which makes sense at St. Peter's at a Mass for thousands of people... ) At many parish churches, however, you often find extremes such as 10 EMs for a congregation of a couple hundred people. There are other arguments against EMs of course, but I imagine that is the reasoning for having them at St. Peter's, since the Church does allow it.

    [QUOTE]I've tried Latin Masses in many cities and have found all but one lacking. The people didn't respond, there were many people praying the rosary (which is a private devotional that shouldn't be taking place in the midst of the communal celebration of the Eucharist), kids with juice boxes, etc.
    Posted by Librarydragon[/QUOTE]
    This is unfortunate. I am blessed to go to a beautiful Latin Mass here in Pittsburgh. As for the lack of response--this doesn't necessarily mean people are not participating... But in regards to the rosary, I agree, Mass is not the time and place for that.
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  • mica178mica178 member
    5000 Comments Fourth Anniversary
    edited December 2011
    I think that it's funny that we have a group of interested Catholics here, and we always argue.

    While I love receiving communion from the pastor at my church (I just like saying hi to him during mass), I don't think that it's any less of a sacrament if I receive it from a EM.  If it's something that has been passed down from the Vatican, then why do we question it? 

    Now that masses can be said in any language, why do we think that some are better than others?  Pious people surrounding us make for a better experience, but even if you do have to watch the mass on a TV screen, that's still Scripture and a general presence of believers together.  I speak a little Latin, Italian and more Spanish and have attended mass in all those languages.  They seem a little "deeper" to me, probably because the language separation makes them seem almost mystical.  Underneath my brain's desire to assign more meaning to things I don't quite understand, the readings and the lessons are the same.

    My husband is a very conservative person in pretty much all aspects.  Me, not quite so much, although right now I have become a completely non-cafeteria Catholic.  I was telling him that I am a moderate Catholic, and he asked how that was possible, that I did the exact things that his most conservative Catholic relatives do.  I told him that compared to the ladies on this board, I was apparently a heretic.

    The more I read Scripture, the more I am affected by Paul's writings.  I'm a big fan of Romans 14.
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    I guess I'm not getting an answer
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: :: agape :: : Whoa,....you apparently don't even read the stuff I write before you go off on me now. Scroll up, I said I wasn't denying he was guilty. and he was laicized for doing wrong things ...either way. And again, you still have not answered my question. And I care about what the vatican approves of, because thats what matters.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    You're being intentionally obtuse so I'll repeat myself

    1) I don't think Lifeteen is a good experience for young women. That includes  camps and other non academic activities

    2)  I initially based my disapproval on the opinions of M's school, Convent of the Sacred Heart, an international school system for girls

    3)  I find your statements about Catholicism offensive quite offensive at times and ridiculous more often.  You stated in the beginning that Lifeteen formed you a good deal and frankly, I think that's a problem.

    4)  There is nothing absolute in our religion, other than canon law.  IMO, you twist a good deal of that to suit your own opinions.

    5)  You say you don't judge but most of your posts are judgemetal or highly opioniated. 

    6) It's midnight and I need to sleep.

    we can take this up again tomorrow.
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    I am not being obtuse. I have asked the same question 4 times and still have not gotten answer.

    The thing that is absolute in the Catholic faith is doctrine and that is from the catechism...nothing in the teaching of the church have changed. Canon law is not absolute---that changes all the time. The most recent one is what constitutes a formal defection from the faith.

    I have said nothing that is my "opinion" I've stated ONLY church teaching and nothing else... if I state an opinion about a debatable topic (such as commentary on a song, I say its an opinion). I've twisted nothing. My statements are catholic teaching, you can compare it to the catechism...it will match. If you are offended, you are offended by Catholic teaching, not me. And why not all the other people here that are repeating, and saying the same things, referencing the church teachings too?

    judgement, as has been said so many times, is statements or opinions of the state of someone's soul. I have never ever made a comment about such a thing.  Telling someone who steals that stealing is wrong is not being judgemental.

    Now, I expect I'm going to get another derogatory remark. Instead, I invite actual discussion on future threads about doctrine that uses catechism references, or other church/papal writings, which is the source.
  • Hope61Hope61 member
    500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE] While I love receiving communion from the pastor at my church (I just like saying hi to him during mass), I don't think that it's any less of a sacrament if I receive it from a EM.  If it's something that has been passed down from the Vatican, then why do we question it? [/QUOTE]
    I think everyone here would agree with you--its no less a sacrament whether the priest gives you communion or your neighbor Bob does.

    I do not read this blog (linked from Father Z's blog), so I cannot speak for it, but... here seems to be a good explanation of the Vatican's instructions on EMHC's and how many US parishes do not follow the instructions: http://jimgarlits.wordpress.com/2009/07/26/a-proposition/

    [QUOTE] Now that masses can be said in any language, why do we think that some are better than others?  [/QUOTE]

    First, I want to say that while I do believe the Latin Mass to be "better", I also love the Novus Ordo Mass and attend it regularly. They are both valid Masses, and both have the potential for great beauty as well as for abuse. As for why I think the Latin Mass is better... well, its late and I have a million plans for tomorrow so I don't want to go too in depth right now, but I would like to point out that its not just about the language. Its a LOT more than that. The prayers are different (and there are more of them!), the priest faces the altar (offering up the sacrifice of the Mass *with* the people)...
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  • Hope61Hope61 member
    500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Not sure why I bother, since you reply to no one but Agapecarrie... But at least she probably reads these comments, so if nothing else, I can let her know she's not alone here...

    In Response to Re: :: agape :::
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: :: agape :: : You're being intentionally obtuse so I'll repeat myself 1) I don't think Lifeteen is a good experience for young women. That includes  camps and other non academic activities 2)  I initially based my disapproval on the opinions of M's school, Convent of the Sacred Heart, an international school system for girls 3)  I find your statements about Catholicism offensive quite offensive at times and ridiculous more often.  You stated in the beginning that Lifeteen formed you a good deal and frankly, I think that's a problem. [/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]I dont even know where Lifeteen is in NYC as if the school didn't allow it[/QUOTE]

    So... do you know anything about Lifeteen besides that the founder did some bad things and left the Church? How does this affect Agapecarrie and her knowledge of the faith? I could tell you that some Popes in the past were great sinners--does that mean that your Catholicism is worthless?

    [QUOTE]4)  There is nothing absolute in our religion, other than canon law.   [/QUOTE]
    Er... really? The Catholic faith is all about absolutes.

    [QUOTE] 6) It's midnight and I need to sleep.
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]
    Me too! :)
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  • HandBananaHandBanana member
    Seventh Anniversary 500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    At first reading this I was really enjoying all the different thoughts on Catholicism.  Being from Chicago there is a much more liberal thought and I enjoy reading/hearing from others.

    Although I have posted all of 2 times it seems like anytime something about actual Catholic practice is on here it turns into a I'm more holier and Catholic than you and you are wrong. 

    Can't imagine why the church is shrinking and Catholics Come Home failed?

    Just disappointing. 

    Also, you aren't really turning the other cheek if you bait the person.
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