Heaviness in my heart

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:7548758d-90f7-47d1-bf61-02224b23c722">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Actually, its not harsh. It does kill.... 17 embryos. Most will die. That is killing. Spiritual damage: against God's plan and will. It's the truth.<strong><u> We can all stop with the "honeys" and the "hun"s. I'm not patronizing, so please stop it.</u></strong> The Church's teachings that sex and babies belong together (contraception is having sex without babies. IVF is having babies without sex). The tearing apart of these 2 is harmful, objectifies humans to be viewed as a commodity and degrading to human life in general.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Yeah cause telling us what is and is not gods plan is not patronizing.  AT ALL.

Last time I checked God had one son, not a daughter spreading his word on TK.

tidetravel

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:0b7d4feb-622e-4077-920e-4086dca1380b">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Right. So you can't just come in here and say that I've MADE IT UP. You asked for my support of my FACTS, and I've provided several supporting documents. We could debate any number of things this way, such as the risk of breast cancer in certain populations. Point is, there is SUPPORTING EVIDENCE. I didn't just pull the statement out of thin air.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]
But your statement was that there were much higher rates of genetic defects and abnormalities in babies born through IVF, which, by your own quoted sources, just isn't the case.  There may be a higher probability of having a child born with problems through IVF, but the actual occurrence of these problems within the population is less than 1%. 

Either you've misunderstood the research, or you're twisting it to make your point.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:a46ac51c-478d-4a1a-ae27-4a294b3f727e">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Yeah cause telling us what is and is not gods plan is not patronizing.  AT ALL. Last time I checked God had one son, not a daughter spreading his word on TK.
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

Actually, we are all charged with spreading his word. In fact, the reading from this past Sunday commands it.

No, it wasn't patronizing, because I'm stating church teaching, NOT my opinion. I don't make up my own truth, for what is convenient for me to believe. I believe in Christ and the Church that he instituted.

bel138

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:6244092e-9f42-4d0b-a0b0-355b9eeb01e3">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
"Consistently shown that something is an effect does not necessarily mean that it consistently occurs.  Higher risk of something?  Possibly.  Consistently will happen with every case?  Doubtful. "

I never claimed that any type of birth defect would consistently occur in every case. I stated that IVF is associated with a higher risk of certain birth defects. That statement is supported by objective scientific evidence. You guys can argue with me all you want that there are studies that don't say that. But I could also go out and find you studies that have proved no link between smoking and lung cancer in the sampled population. Overall point is that there IS in fact evidence and studies which support my statement. You guys asked me to show you evidence, and I have. If you wanted me to come up with irrefutable evidence that it occurs in all cases, that is impossible, as no such study exists in ANY branch of medicine.


[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Isn't that God's will, though? That person would have those developmental disabilities because God wanted them to be that way.
Posted by mehgank[/QUOTE]

If He had been involved in the creation of these children, then yes, they would be as He wanted.

tidetravel

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:8e1719d1-fa6c-4fc8-8b57-aea0ef8d5d53">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : That makes sense, and it's cool that your body knows/works that way.  But what about the people who get pregnant while actively BFing?  Are they just extra fertile?
Posted by bree4305[/QUOTE]

BFing alone will not prevent pregnancy, in and of itself.  In order for your body to produce the hormones that prevent ovulation, you have to BF every 2-3 hours.  Once the baby gets old enough to go longer periods of time between feedings, you go back to ovulating.  So, while you can prevent pregnancy for the first, maybe 6 months, you cannot breastfeed until the kid is 18 months old, and think that you're safe. 

mehgank

So he's turning his back on his children and punishing them for their actions? Doesn't sound like God to me.

And does that include the people born handicapped who were conceived the "normal way"? Why are they to be punished?

bel138

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:b0ebcccd-1ca9-4ffe-b2d8-5cec78e5f552">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]There may be a higher probability of having a child born with problems through IVF, but the actual occurrence of these problems within the population is less than 1%.  Either you've misunderstood the research, or you're twisting it to make your point.
Posted by tidetravel[/QUOTE]

Perhaps I should not have said the word "much" in my original statement. I will give you that. But the rest of it stands. There is support of the claim that certain birth defects and diseases are more prevalent. And the 1% is the percentage of the IVF population in which the heart defects occurred, not the increased incidence over the general population. You have to look at the odds ratio in that case.

catarntina

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:8e1719d1-fa6c-4fc8-8b57-aea0ef8d5d53">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : That makes sense, and it's cool that your body knows/works that way.  But what about the people who get pregnant while actively BFing?  Are they just extra fertile?
Posted by bree4305[/QUOTE]

Like with the pill or condoms and other methods of BC, there is the typical failure rate.  It's like 98% effective when used 100% correctly, but only in the first 6 months after birth.  Then the failure rate goes up after that. According to that wiki link I linked awhile back...

LauraT25

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:7548758d-90f7-47d1-bf61-02224b23c722">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Actually, its not harsh. It does kill.... 17 embryos. Most will die. That is killing. Spiritual damage: against God's plan and will. It's the truth. We can all stop with the "honeys" and the "hun"s. I'm not patronizing, so please stop it. The Church's teachings that sex and babies belong together (contraception is having sex without babies. IVF is having babies without sex). The tearing apart of these 2 is harmful, objectifies humans to be viewed as a commodity and degrading to human life in general.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I still think it's harsh.  You didn't just say, "According to the Church, this is murder", you called it a "disgusting diabolical travesty".  For me there is a huge difference between thinking that IVF is wrong (and I understand that this is the Church's stance and that you believe that, and would never try to convince you otherwise), and seeing a thread elsewhere on TK and coming hear to condemn the OP.  You didn't just say, "I saw something sad and I think we should pray", you used a lot of very strong language.  Besides, I agree with whoever said that you could privately pray rather than starting a whole new thread to talk about how disgusting and diabolical something is.

So my original point still stands.

bel138

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:e9b45315-7a8e-4534-bded-41911c6f4001">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]So he's turning his back on his children and punishing them for their actions? Doesn't sound like God to me. And does that include the people born handicapped who were conceived the "normal way"? Why are they to be punished?
Posted by mehgank[/QUOTE]

I never said these people are being punished. People with mental and physical handicaps are just as much a blessing as those without. God does not view them any differently, nor do I.

And with this, I'm done. This was posted on a Catholic board, with Catholic people who believe in Catholic teachings. This was not posted on an international board, as we realize that people have differing viewpoints. I would not go onto a Hindu board and malign them and tell them they are really missing out on some great steaks. I am not sure why everyone came over here to essentially do the same to us.

eshaufle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:47507206-1084-4351-af62-38cf5e2f2d57">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : "Consistently shown that something is an effect does not necessarily mean that it consistently occurs.  Higher risk of something?  Possibly.  Consistently will happen with every case?  Doubtful. " <strong>I never claimed that any type of birth defect would consistently occur in every case. I stated that IVF is associated with a higher risk of certain birth defects. That statement is supported by objective scientific evidence.</strong> You guys can argue with me all you want that there are studies that don't say that. But I could also go out and find you studies that have proved no link between smoking and lung cancer in the sampled population. Overall point is that there IS in fact evidence and studies which support my statement. You guys asked me to show you evidence, and I have. If you wanted me to come up with irrefutable evidence that it occurs in all cases, that is impossible, as no such study exists in ANY branch of medicine. If He had been involved in the creation of these children, then yes, they would be as He wanted.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

Here I was only clarifying that saying something consistently causing a higher risk of a defect is different than saying it actually consistently occurs.  I think prior posts came across rather definitive that IVF will cause defects and that's just not the case <em>consistently.  </em>Things can consistently cause a higher probability that defects will occur but like other people have mentioned, that doesn't mean that probability turns into reality.

And not to bring up a technicality but technically people have a scientific mind from God so he did kind of have his hand in the creation of all scientific advances including the science up for discussion here.  Technically.  The blame can't entirely be placed on the person using the tools...a little bit has to be placed on the person who created the tools.

LauraT25

Most people did not say that they had a problem with your STANCE (i.e. that IVF is wrong) as much as the tone of the posts, and the fact that it seemed to be more about insulting someone who was happy about an IVF success. 

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:86fceee3-d536-4413-a545-9ad8658c3865">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : I never said these people are being punished. People with mental and physical handicaps are just as much a blessing as those without. God does not view them any differently, nor do I. And with this, I'm done.<strong><u> This was posted on a Catholic board, with Catholic people who believe in Catholic teachings</u></strong>. This was not posted on an international board, as we realize that people have differing viewpoints. I would not go onto a Hindu board and malign them and tell them they are really missing out on some great steaks. I am not sure why everyone came over here to essentially do the same to us.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

But your understanding of the churches teaching are wrong.  You cant sit here and spew out misinformation on the topic and then run away with your tail between your legs when you are called out on your lies.

I suggest actually getting informed on what the church actually teaches and focus less on spitting out your own twisted interpretation of it.

mehgank

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:86fceee3-d536-4413-a545-9ad8658c3865">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : I never said these people are being punished. People with mental and physical handicaps are just as much a blessing as those without. God does not view them any differently, nor do I. And with this, I'm done. This was posted on a Catholic board, with Catholic people who believe in Catholic teachings. This was not posted on an international board, as we realize that people have differing viewpoints. I would not go onto a Hindu board and malign them and tell them they are really missing out on some great steaks. I am not sure why everyone came over here to essentially do the same to us.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

It's a public forum on a public site. Everyone can see it and post whatever they want to.

And I don't see why God views people born from IVF any differently than those conceived the natural way. We are all his children.

And don't Catholics believe in purgatory for their sins? That being said, wouldn't the parents have to pay for their sins in purgatory, NOT by having their children be handicap?

I'm just trying to get answers, since I am marrying a Catholic, but was raised in a Christian non-denominational church where I was taught that we are all God's children, no matter how we were conceived (out of wedlock, via rape, IVF or the natural way). He loves us all because he is our Father.

bel138

I'm no longer going to reply to your instigations to get me riled up. I suggest if you both have questions about the Catholic faith, that you bring your concerns to a priest or other church official.

Blueyed228

Plus, since this is the Catholic board and all, Im not sure any of you really have any experience with this topic, since all of you un-marrieds are supposed to be virgins and all.  Cause you know, fornication is a sin too.

mehgank

Lame.

DodgersBride

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:47ff66b7-2ac9-4701-b0b4-6a7313bac02c">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm no longer going to reply to your instigations to get me riled up. I suggest if you both have questions about the Catholic faith, that you bring your concerns to a priest or other church official.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

Yes and you do the same because you seem not to know it correctly as Blue has pointed out to you several times.

tidetravel

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:86fceee3-d536-4413-a545-9ad8658c3865">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : I never said these people are being punished. People with mental and physical handicaps are just as much a blessing as those without. God does not view them any differently, nor do I. And with this, I'm done. <strong>This was posted on a Catholic board, with Catholic people who believe in Catholic teachings. This was not posted on an international board</strong>, as we realize that people have differing viewpoints. I would not go onto a Hindu board and malign them and tell them they are really missing out on some great steaks. I am not sure why everyone came over here to essentially do the same to us.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

So, it's ok to bring up a topic and spew vitrol and hatred without being called to the mat, because you're surrounded by like minded people?  Not on a public message board. 

Random thought:  I wonder what a terrorist message board would look like?  And would they get upset if non-terrorists came to their message boards to tell them that 9/11 was totally not cool?

bel138

I'm sorry I won't play your game and you have to find someone else to entertain you.

And a lot of us are married. It's the same as any other board. If there were no marrieds, there would be no one to give advice.

JenGin74

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:22e81381-b8e8-4b27-ae01-5a57de8256f1">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : So, it's ok to bring up a topic and spew vitrol and hatred without being called to the mat, because you're surrounded by like minded people?  Not on a public message board.  Random thought:  I wonder what a terrorist message board would look like?  And would they get upset if non-terrorists came to their message boards to tell them that 9/11 was totally not cool?
Posted by tidetravel[/QUOTE]

Amen!

mica178

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:ce3ed67c-9200-4a48-8eda-cb5a7784760c">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : No, you call it "early delivery", science calls it a late term abortion.  Semantics really. 
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

<div>Actually, the term "late term abortion" makes no scientific or medical  sense.  That term was coined by a lobbying group and serves to show how affected the average person is by propaganda and the popular press.  If you're here to debate science and medicine, please use the proper terms.</div><div>
</div><div>What on earth happened here?  Did the snarky brides field trip over here to wreak havoc?  </div><div>
</div>

mehgank

I thought you weren't responding to us anymore, bel....?

mrscarter052011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:47ff66b7-2ac9-4701-b0b4-6a7313bac02c">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm no longer going to reply to your instigations to get me riled up. I suggest if you both have questions about the Catholic faith, that you bring your concerns to a priest or other church official.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

God hates quitters.  Just sayin'

bel138

I'm sorry, Tide, but I don't really think I was spewing hate. I made a statement. It was challenged, and I tried to defend myself.

Obviously, there is a disagreement about who thinks they are correct on church teachings. I am confident in my beliefs. We may be using different words and not quite understanding each other because of that, but I know what is taught. However, I will not use that promt to further argue the points.

tidetravel

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:1739881e-dbdc-491e-afb4-71f63a68d902">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm sorry, Tide, but I don't really think I was spewing hate. I made a statement. It was challenged, and I tried to defend myself. Obviously, there is a disagreement about who thinks they are correct on church teachings. I am confident in my beliefs. We may be using different words and not quite understanding each other because of that, but I know what is taught. However, I will not use that promt to further argue the points.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

You weren't, but several others in this thread, including OP, were. 

bel138

I meant I was done arguing and playing into your games.

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:95e0b37a-7606-4669-b59d-2bd7532de712">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Actually, the term "late term abortion" makes no scientific or medical  sense.  That term was coined by a lobbying group and serves to show how affected the average person is by propaganda and the popular press.  If you're here to debate science and medicine, please use the proper terms. What on earth happened here?  Did the snarky brides field trip over here to wreak havoc?  
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

Oh give me a break.  If the procedure needed to happen within the first tri-mester for the same reasons it would be called the same thing.

Science calls it a termination of pregnancy.  So there goes your arguement.

maratea

Well, God help you all if you're not able to have children naturally, but you desperately want one. What if you can't afford an adoption? If IVF is your only option, are you REALLY going to give up your deepest want of a family?

Remember, karma is a bitch.

Please don't pray for me. I don't want your pity, nor do I care to receive 'blessings' from your god. I believe in God, but clearly not the same as yours. I believe mine is far move forgiving and understanding to those of ignorance.

JenGin74

As a person currently going through fertility treatments this whole thing just offends me. I hope you never have to go through what I'm going through. Apparently, I'm more forgiving.