Heaviness in my heart

LessThanZero

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:7548758d-90f7-47d1-bf61-02224b23c722">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Actually, its not harsh. It does kill.... 17 embryos. Most will die. That is killing. <strong>Spiritual damage: against God's plan and will. It's the truth.</strong> We can all stop with the "honeys" and the "hun"s. I'm not patronizing, so please stop it. The Church's teachings that sex and babies belong together (contraception is having sex without babies. IVF is having babies without sex). The tearing apart of these 2 is harmful, objectifies humans to be viewed as a commodity and degrading to human life in general.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

A logical equation for God's plan:

If God, an all knowing, all powerful being has a "plan" then how did the people who created this type of science come to rise? Were they not part of God's "plan"?

If the scientists who came up with this type of science are NOT part of God's plan, then the statement that God has a plan for everyone is NOT true.

And if they were part of God's plan, then that means that IVF CANNOT be against God's plan.

Get it? This is pure logic.

SarahPLiz

OP, I can see what you believe, and of course you believe you are right and the rest of us are wrong. I hope in your prayers tonight that you pray you are right. 

Remember always that the Bible was written by man, and all churches are run by men (humans), and no men are infalliable. I think you should take more stock in your personal relationship with God than someone else's interpretation. 

allisong23

There is a higher rate of birth abnormalities as the mother gets older. So should my husband & I not try to have children naturally because I am of "advanced maternal age"? Because you are using the logic that IVF might hve a slightly higher rate of birth defects than non-IVF, so IVF should not be done. So should I just stop banging my husband?

You said it yourself. God loves all children, disabled or not. So what is the difference between a child conceived through IVF with a defect than a child conceived normally with one.

marriedfilingjointly

I hate that you guys aren't taking questions anymore because I would like to know the church's stance on pain meds during labor (given God's convo with Eve in Genesis) and c-sections which are usually performed in circumstances when the mom, baby, or both are in danger. 

mica178

cIn Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:e0f2949c-449c-4aad-9810-05a92fbd0b12">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Oh give me a break.  If the procedure needed to happen within the first tri-mester for the same reasons it would be called the same thing. Science calls it a termination of pregnancy.  So there goes your arguement.
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

<div>Whenever I hear people use catch phrases like  "late term abortion," I feel that their information isn't grounded in hard facts.  If this whole field trip is for everyone is to attack the beliefs of the Catholics on this board, your arguments should be based on something more than the news clips from the 11 o'clock news. </div><div>
</div><div>A bunch of people came over here today to attack the views of people who are practicing Catholics.  I'm all for debate, but if you're debating from the spiritual side, please give examples from the Scripture or another religious reference.  And if you're going to debate from the science side, you need to use medical terms.  </div><div>
</div><div>My argument (please note the spelling) is that most of the people who came to attack this thread are using horrible logic and a bunch of insulting prejudices. There are a lot of things in this world that were created or invented by man that clearly not "good" to use.  Crystal meth, for example, is created by science.  No one would argue that because science created it it is ethical to use.  Abortion was a procedure invented by humans.  As Catholics, we believe life starts at conception, so we believe it is wrong whether it is performed in the early 1st trimester or the late 2nd.  As Catholics we also believe that conception is supposed to be the product of marital sex so how can we support IVF?  There's a difference between the very human desire to have your own genetic child and what one understands to be the truth as taught by one's religion.  Many couples get caught up in their earthly desires and give in to the temptations that exist on earth.  I sympathize with them -- we are all human and weak -- and can only pray that they find their way to the truth.</div><div>
</div><div>Bel and carrie, I am sorry that I wasn't here earlier.</div>

marriedfilingjointly

Obviously our intent isn't to attack the beliefs of Catholics.  Several SBers in this thread are Catholic, so there goes that argument. 

mica178

A lot of people call themselves Catholic but do not practice Catholicism.  If you support abortion or IVF, you can't call yourself a practicing Catholic.

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:4f4750ff-eb81-4a12-a29d-3d4f7edaf569">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]OP, I can see what you believe, and of course you believe you are right and the rest of us are wrong. I hope in your prayers tonight that you pray you are right.  Remember always that the Bible was written by man, and all churches are run by men (humans), and no men are infalliable. I think you should take more stock in your personal relationship with God than someone else's interpretation. 
Posted by SarahPLiz[/QUOTE]

umm, Sarah. Are you saying that the bible was written just by men?  The letters by the apostles, just as an example, my very well have been written by women as well.  The concept that the apostles were all men went out the door of the Catholic Church about 25 years ago.

Friends and followers don't HAVE to be of the same gender.

K&J64

I didn't attack anyone on this post/board. But let me just say this. In your beliefs you will be judged by God one day, I have absolutely no fear that if that is my fate that I will not be punished in any way. I am a good person, I treat people with kindness, compassion and empathy. I do not condemn others as I know it is not my place. I help people when I can, I am loyal to my family, my friends and to my future wife. And I do not think for a second that when I have a child outside of tranditional conception that this child will be some how flawed.

It makes my heart heavy that people use God to condemn others, God is love, and he or she surely understands all of our perfect imperfections. I hope my God is the one that judges you on that day because she is pretty cool and won't be too harsh on you for taking her ideas and running wild with them.

DodgersBride

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:6a5b99ef-b251-4fa4-9b88-a1d5a89126d8">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]A lot of people call themselves Catholic but do not practice Catholicism.  If you support abortion or IVF, you can't call yourself a practicing Catholic.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

Who are you to say that these ppl are not practicing catholics?

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:bb57618d-4028-4143-a199-8ca432de5821">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]cIn Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Whenever I hear people use catch phrases like  "late term abortion," I feel that their information isn't grounded in hard facts.  If this whole field trip is for everyone is to attack the beliefs of the Catholics on this board, your arguments should be based on something more than the news clips from the 11 o'clock news.  A bunch of people came over here today to attack the views of people who are practicing Catholics.  I'm all for debate, but if you're debating from the spiritual side, please give examples from the Scripture or another religious reference.  And if you're going to debate from the science side, you need to use medical terms.   My argument (please note the spelling) is that most of the people who came to attack this thread are using horrible logic and a bunch of insulting prejudices. There are a lot of things in this world that were created or invented by man that clearly not "good" to use.  Crystal meth, for example, is created by science.  No one would argue that because science created it it is ethical to use.  Abortion was a procedure invented by humans.  As Catholics, we believe life starts at conception, so we believe it is wrong whether it is performed in the early 1st trimester or the late 2nd.  As Catholics we also believe that conception is supposed to be the product of marital sex so how can we support IVF?  There's a difference between the very human desire to have your own genetic child and what one understands to be the truth as taught by one's religion.  Many couples get caught up in their earthly desires and give in to the temptations that exist on earth.  I sympathize with them -- we are all human and weak -- and can only pray that they find their way to the truth. Bel and carrie, I am sorry that I wasn't here earlier.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

well i am glad you can spell since the rest of your information is flawed. Catholics do believe in abortion. As long as it is an indirect result of a procedure needed to save the mothers like. You just give it a fancy new name like early delivery. So again, there goes that argument.

mica178

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:b2f73703-6e33-442b-b23f-4bd44c3eccc8">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]I hate that you guys aren't taking questions anymore because I would like to know the church's stance on pain meds during labor (given God's convo with Eve in Genesis) and c-sections which are usually performed in circumstances when the mom, baby, or both are in danger. 
Posted by marriedfilingjointly[/QUOTE]

<div>Re: epidurals, I couldn't find anything against their use.  I know that when anesthesia was first being used, there was question over whether it should be allowed for women in childbirth specifically because of that passage in Genesis, but my understanding is there's still plenty of pain for the woman before the time for the epidural comes!  Epidurals are given as options in Catholic hospitals.</div><div>
</div><div>As for c-sections, if they are done to protect the lives of mother and/or child, their use should be consistent with the practice of Catholicism.</div>

SarahPLiz

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:9073cb8e-366e-4707-b681-5e1385753888">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : umm, Sarah. Are you saying that the bible was written just by men?  The letters by the apostles, just as an example, my very well have been written by women as well.  The concept that the apostles were all men went out the door of the Catholic Church about 25 years ago. Friends and followers don't HAVE to be of the same gender.
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

<div>I meant men in the biblical sense, which I interpret as humans. As opposed to other wildlife. </div>

Celles

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:bec0251d-84ba-4778-af79-b41ebf89f6ca">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Re: epidurals, I couldn't find anything against their use. <strong> I know that when anesthesia was first being used, there was question over whether it should be allowed for women in childbirth specifically because of that passage in Genesis, but my understanding is there's still plenty of pain for the woman before the time for the epidural comes!</strong>  Epidurals are given as options in Catholic hospitals. As for c-sections, if they are done to protect the lives of mother and/or child, their use should be consistent with the practice of Catholicism.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]


Seriously?  Epidurals are okay because labor is still painful enough to make it sufficiently punishing to women for<em> </em>being women?  I wasn't going to say anything when I bounced over from SB because of that whole respect for others' beliefs thing...  but Jesus Christ on a pogo stick!  That alone makes me I'm glad I'm an atheist!

Celles

Also, if you want to make moral judgments about sex, then I think humans are ahead of the rest of the animal kingdom.  For us, it's occcasionally about reproduction.  I'm pretty sure those lions and zebras are just thinking about getting off. 

ootmother2

good.  I hoped that you didn't regard God as sexist because she isn't at all!

mica178

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:397d9c33-b394-44c9-a8b0-eab406a94440">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : well i am glad you can spell since the rest of your information is flawed. Catholics do believe in abortion. As long as it is an indirect result of a procedure needed to save the mothers like. You just give it a fancy new name like early delivery. So again, there goes that argument.
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

<div>Catholics do "believe in" abortion.  We are aware that it exists.  We do not support the use of the procedure.</div><div>
</div><div>To what are you referring?  The treatment of ectopic pregnancy?  The name for that is partial salpingectomy.  There are other treatments of ectopic pregnancy that are not consistent with the practice, such as the use of methotrexate.  If you took the time to read up on why and how Catholics came to practice the way they do, you'd understand that it's not all semantics.</div>

klm03013

The biggest problem I have with this thread is that I agree that the motivation behind it seems a bit disturbing to me. Jesus may want you to "spread the word" but he also teaches to be humble. Sometimes I feel that people say that they are going to pray for someone so that they can show how superior their morality is and cast judgment on others. This posts reeks of moral superiority (at least by some posters).

As a Catholic myself, I feel that if you truly think someone needs to be prayed for, you do it privately. You don't wear your religion like a badge that shouts "I'm better than you and feel so sorry for you." It is just insincere.

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:c4d566f7-5db6-40dd-99f6-c30fea2ac680">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]The biggest problem I have with this thread is that I agree that the motivation behind it seems a bit disturbing to me. Jesus may want you to "spread the word" but he also teaches to be humble. Sometimes I feel that people say that they are going to pray for someone so that they can show how superior their morality is and cast judgment on others. This posts reeks of moral superiority (at least by some posters). As a Catholic myself, I feel that if you truly think someone needs to be prayed for, you do it privately. You don't wear your religion like a badge that shouts "I'm better than you and feel so sorry for you." It is just insincere.
Posted by klm03013[/QUOTE]


I thank you, Kim

maratea

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:c9bf7c7e-0d41-443d-bdf0-937b2c0ff6af">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Catholics do "believe in" abortion.  We are aware that it exists.  We do not support the use of the procedure. To what are you referring?  The treatment of ectopic pregnancy?  The name for that is <strong>partial salpingectomy</strong>.  There are other treatments of ectopic pregnancy that are not consistent with the practice, such as the use of methotrexate.  If you took the time to read up on why and how Catholics came to practice the way they do, you'd understand that it's not all semantics.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

But isn't this still considered abortion, because the pregnancy is being removed from the body. A 'life' is being taken with this sort of procedure. I guess I just think if you are going to believe in abortion, you might as well believe in it all the way. You know, the logic of the original posters in this thread is flawed. You say it's God's will whether or not a couple could get pregnant naturally and if it's not meant to be then so be it. But when it comes to an abortion that will save the woman, it's justified? Why not if it's God will to let the baby and mother die then so be it? If you aren't going to interfere with God's plan, then don't interfere at all. Jesus, it's like talking to a fucking wall.

mica178

Actually, the church is not against fertility treatments in general, just specific treatments.  We have science to help us, but the science needs to work within the bounds of our beliefs.  So medications that help the woman's uterus be less hostile or which promote the continuation of a pregnancy are fine.  Removing eggs and sperm from the couple's bodies and mixing them together in a petri dish is not okay.

If you saw a woman hit by a car, you wouldn't let her die on the road because God must have willed her to die.  You'd try to help her because God made you a witness to the accident so you could help her.  

I apologize for shortening the term "therapeutic abortion" down to "abortion."  Medically speaking, there are different types of abortion.  Therapeutic abortion is what we think of as abortion.  It's a procedure or combination of pills given to terminate a pregnancy intentionally.  There are "spontaneous abortions" more commonly referred to as miscarriages, where the fetus dies without medical intent.  The Catholic church is against therapeutic abortion.

Please excuse me for posting and running, but I must prepare dinner right now.  Today's conversation has been distracting, to say the least.  Perhaps challenging. would be a better word for it

[Deleted User]

+JMJ+

Pray for us all. That we will see the face of you in all that we meet. Let us stand on the firm believe that the Church was created to get us all to heaven. Let us not be disillusioned by man or science. Let us always focus on the cross. Let the Holy Spirit be our guide as we walk through life, let us all reflect and follow in the gentle steps of Mother Mary.

Pray for Us.

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:5aceeac3-bbc1-48cb-bb8b-ed5b726e668f">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Plus, since this is the Catholic board and all, Im not sure any of you really have any experience with this topic, since all of you un-marrieds are supposed to be virgins and all.  Cause you know, fornication is a sin too.
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

Ha ha.  So very true Blue.

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:057143f6-70c2-4283-bfd3-06bea145b9bd">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]As a person currently going through fertility treatments this whole thing just offends me. I hope you never have to go through what I'm going through. Apparently, I'm more forgiving.
Posted by JenGin74[/QUOTE]

Jen you're more forgiving, intelligent, rational and loving.  Though with people who have such a level of hatred and ignorance it makes me scared for humanity. 

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:c4d566f7-5db6-40dd-99f6-c30fea2ac680">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]The biggest problem I have with this thread is that I agree that the motivation behind it seems a bit disturbing to me. Jesus may want you to "spread the word" but he also teaches to be humble. Sometimes I feel that people say that they are going to pray for someone so that they can show how superior their morality is and cast judgment on others. This posts reeks of moral superiority (at least by some posters). As a Catholic myself, I feel that if you truly think someone needs to be prayed for, you do it privately. You don't wear your religion like a badge that shouts "I'm better than you and feel so sorry for you." It is just insincere.
Posted by klm03013[/QUOTE]

This is wonderfully stated.  As someone who was raised Catholic, but doesn't believe in all church teachings (due to the high level os misogyny and ignorance in the higher levels of the Catholic church) this is probably the best statement from a Catholic. 

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:c9bf7c7e-0d41-443d-bdf0-937b2c0ff6af">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Catholics do "believe in" abortion.  We are aware that it exists.  We do not support the use of the procedure. To what are you referring?  The treatment of ectopic pregnancy?  The name for that is partial salpingectomy.  There are other treatments of ectopic pregnancy that are not consistent with the practice, such as the use of methotrexate.  If you took the time to read up on why and how Catholics came to practice the way they do, you'd understand that<strong> it's not all semantics</strong>.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

Well here is some semantics for you.

People who think like you and the rest of your little rat pack are the reason why the phrase "Ignorant, bible thumping, Jesus freak" was coined.

Just saying.

kikibaby

I'm glad I found this thread.  It cements my Atheist beliefs.  I would not want to be associated with the asinine, ignorant posters in this thread.  I wish the best for the couple going through IVF.

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:bb802f70-c02d-4177-89c9-ddf25ba4ea93">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm glad I found this thread.  It cements my Atheist beliefs.  I would not want to be associated with the asinine, ignorant posters in this thread.  I wish the best for the couple going through IVF.
Posted by kikibaby[/QUOTE]

kiki, please don't think that a few women are indicative of what the Catholic religion is about!

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:6a5b99ef-b251-4fa4-9b88-a1d5a89126d8">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]A lot of people call themselves Catholic but do not practice Catholicism.  If you support abortion or IVF, you can't call yourself a practicing Catholic.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

Just like people who have sex before marriage cant call themselves a practicing catholic since its fornication.  Or if you use the pill or condoms when you are married.

Since you have been married and having sex all of 9 days, I wonder what makes you think you are an expert on all things fertility?

Or maybe you are just a sinner like the rest of those you are judging and finger waving at?

Its the epitome of hypocrisy.

kikibaby

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:e2fe584a-c981-470a-8f07-1a9c7f636acd">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : kiki, please don't think that a few women are indicative of what the Catholic religion is about!
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

I know, I'm not OOT.  I know some wonderful Christian (and even Catholic) people who would not judge the way some of the ignorant people in this thread have.