Full mass...or not.

JCM10

I grew up in the Methodist church, and am baptized and confirmed in the UMC.  My family is the go to church every Sunday (and Sunday night...and Wednesday) kind of family. 

My fiancé's is Catholic and has been baptized, done 1st communion and is confirmed, but his family isn't as active in the church.

Basically, I thought I'd have more control over the religious side of the wedding than I do. I went to a few RCIA classes (just to learn things. I'm NOT converting.) and felt like I was in 1st grade sunday school all over gain, so I stopped. I feel like I have a really good handle on the religion...after all, it's not *that* different than Methodist.

Question #1.
How do you promise to raise your kids Catholic if that's not what you believe? If they ask me a question, I'm not going to tell them something I don't believe. I don't understand this part of the requirements of the church. The kids have free will, they can go to whatever church they want, since they'll be exposed to both...

Question #2

My fiancé is being stubborn, insisting on having communion at our wedding. Communion is something that I hold very dear to me, and it hurts me to think I wouldn't be able to participate in this part of my own wedding. (I know a lot of priests won't even let this occur since both of us aren't Catholic...but some do. We haven't had that talk yet with the priest). The marriage will still be a sacrament since it's in a church and we're both baptized...so I don't understand why he's being so stubborn about communion when it's a known source of my frustration with the church.

Sorry for the rant...

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_full-massor-not?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c2becd4d-1f59-4d2a-8e42-4b9a45df5684Post:84a8a1a7-0366-4292-9df7-f31c0edfc736">Full mass...or not.</a>:
[QUOTE]Question #1. How do you promise to raise your kids Catholic if that's not what you believe? If they ask me a question, I'm not going to tell them something I don't believe. I don't understand this part of the requirements of the church. The kids have free will, they can go to whatever church they want, since they'll be exposed to both...
Posted by JCM10[/QUOTE]

The simple answer is: You don't. If you do not intend to raise your children according to the Catholic church, then you aren't eligible to be married in the Catholic church. This is more of an issue that you and your FI need to iron out ASAP, than a problem with how to answer the priest's question. You're reight, you shouldn't lie jsut to "pass the test". It's a requirement in order to have your marriage recognized in the church as per Canon Law:
<p class="MsoNormal"><em>Can.  1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:</em></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><em>1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;</em></p>If your children decide later in life to leave the church, that is okay as long as your FI did everything in his power to raise them according to the church.
 
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_full-massor-not?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c2becd4d-1f59-4d2a-8e42-4b9a45df5684Post:84a8a1a7-0366-4292-9df7-f31c0edfc736">Full mass...or not.</a>:
[QUOTE]Question #2 My fiancé is being stubborn, insisting on having communion at our wedding. Communion is something that I hold very dear to me, and it hurts me to think I wouldn't be able to participate in this part of my own wedding. (I know a lot of priests won't even let this occur since both of us aren't Catholic...but some do. We haven't had that talk yet with the priest). The marriage will still be a sacrament since it's in a church and we're both baptized...so I don't understand why he's being so stubborn about communion when it's a known source of my frustration with the church. Sorry for the rant...
Posted by JCM10[/QUOTE]

I see where you may be frustrated because the Catholic church has a very specific view on what communion means and so not just anyone (even Catholics in a state of mortal sin) can receive it. And many of religions do not have the same view, so it can feel insulting to be denied. You just need to work through this with your FI. Often times, couples have a very hard time when they have a disagreement on relgion. I think you are both valid in wanting what each of you want for your ceremony. I believe that although marriages between Catholics and non-Catholics are valid, they are non-sacramental.

You guys should really sit down and talk about how this is going to work out - and not the wedding or ceremony. How will you deal with this large disagreement down the road. It seems that you are both very strong in your beliefs and this could lead to a lot of problems in your marriage.

meltoine

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_full-massor-not?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c2becd4d-1f59-4d2a-8e42-4b9a45df5684Post:36da21c2-9a79-489b-9f32-4dbe1eeebb24">Re: Full mass...or not.</a>:
[QUOTE] I believe that although marriages between Catholics and non-Catholics are valid, they are non-sacramental. 
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

<div>Not true. So long as both parties are baptized, it is a sacrament. But ditto everything else Riss said. Perhaps you want to consider marrying elsewhere. </div>

SaraAndrew2010

If you're not Catholic, you don't have to promise that you will raise your children Catholic.  The Catholic party, your FI, has to promise that he will be sincerely and seriously attempt to raise any children as Catholic.  You don't have to "help" him raise the children Catholic and are welcome to share your beliefs with them.  That being said, you shouldn't be married in the church if you are going to prevent your FI from sharing the Catholic faith with your children.

Theresa626

JCM, have you talked with your fiance about raising your kids Catholic or not?  What have you decided together?  From your post, it sounds like you're going to go to both churches and let them decide which may or may not work for them/you.  I think all you can really say is that you will be open to raising them Catholic.  Obviously, they are free to make their own choices.  

On communion, are you really going to rant about your fiance's religion?  You're marrying him so it is really important that you actually fully understand his religion and not have any harsh feelings about it.  How would you feel if the situation were reversed and he did not fully understand/respect your religion?  It's fine to be two different denominations as long as you both respect each other.  But, it sounds from your post that you don't actually respect his religion because you have issues with it.  You really don't understand the Eucharist as well as you think you do because you seem to be angry about not being able to receive it.  The fact that you take this as some sort of personal offense against yourself makes me think you are ignorant to the reasons behind the rule.  No one is trying to exclude you.  I will let others on here explain it because I'm sure they'll do a better job.

If communion is important to your fiance then I think you should be understanding and willing to bend on it.  It is his wedding too and his religion too.  But, you have to be able to understand fully why you wouldn't be receiving communion and not be angry about it.  

That said, your fiance should also be able to see it from your side.  Typically since a wedding is a union between the two people, communion isn't given if only one can receive it.  If it is really really important to him though, sometimes you just need to bend a little. Please talk it over together and leave your anger for the church out of the conversation. 

meltoine

For clarification, the reason you may not receive communion in the Catholic Church is, simply, that you don't agree with us on what communion really is. 

Catholics believe whole-heartedly that the host IS the body of Christ, not merely a symbol. We believe whole-heartedly that the wine IS the blood of Christ, not merely a symbol. 

When we go up to receive communion, the priest says, "The body of Christ." and we say, "Amen." The definition of "amen" is "Yes. That's true. I agree." You cannot say "amen" to that statement without lying. Therefore, you may not receive communion. 

All Catholics go through a period of education before they are allowed to receive communion also. Young children go through either CCD or Catholic school, and adults go through RCIA, to make sure that they fully understand what it is they are saying "amen" to. 

Catholics may not receive communion in a state of mortal sin because communion IS the body and blood of Christ and as such, should not be put into a body with an unclean soul. It should be treated with as much respect as is humanly possible and only ingested by those who are pure and free from sin. 

Calypso1977

OP:

If you marry in the Catholic church, you must promise not to interfere with the raising of your children as Catholics.  while you do not have to actively participate in teaching them the catholic faith, you must not stand in his way.  IMO, this means not instructing them in another faith, although others here can (and do) disagree with this.

yes, children have "free will" to decide what they want to be.  but as parents, we need to give them the basics and guide them accordingly.  as catholics, we are bound to raise our kids in teh catholic faith.  to try to simultaneously teach them another faith will cause conflict and may cause them to choose taht religion over catholicism, or as i've seen in many cases, the child ends up being no faith at all.

while catholics are christians, catholicism is very different from other christian religions.  Very.

you two need to clear this up now, and it may be that a marriage between the two of you is not in your best interests in a spiritual sense.

as for your second question, communion is considered a sacrament in the catholic faith.  catholics are encouraged to receive sacraments as often as possible.  you really should not deny your FI communion at his wedding.  while you cannot receive, you can get a blessing.  also, having hte Mass provides for extra blessings for the couple as welll, as it is said in your honor.  however, if you are this adamant about not having it, your FI should consider that.

mixed marriages can be very successful.  however, i feel that this one may be heading down a bad path, and i think some serious discussions should be have NOW rather than later, especially with regard to children.  i personally think its best when a couple shares the same faith, whatever taht faith may be.  i couldnt imagine not being able to teach my children my faith or have to teach my children my faith alone because my partner doesnt share it.

i really hope you can get thigns worked out, however tehy may work out.  this is really too important an issue to sweep under the rug, even ifyou can find a happy compromise for the marriage ceremony itself. 

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_full-massor-not?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c2becd4d-1f59-4d2a-8e42-4b9a45df5684Post:c6499993-2eb1-476a-a455-6512cb83b008">Re: Full mass...or not.</a>:
[QUOTE]If you're not Catholic, you don't have to promise that you will raise your children Catholic.  The Catholic party, your FI, has to promise that he will be sincerely and seriously attempt to raise any children as Catholic.  You don't have to "help" him raise the children Catholic and are welcome to share your beliefs with them.  That being said, you shouldn't be married in the church if you are going to prevent your FI from sharing the Catholic faith with your children.
Posted by SaraAndrew2010[/QUOTE]

npasquale16

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_full-massor-not?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c2becd4d-1f59-4d2a-8e42-4b9a45df5684Post:84a8a1a7-0366-4292-9df7-f31c0edfc736">Full mass...or not.</a>:
[QUOTE]I grew up in the Methodist church, and am baptized and confirmed in the UMC.  My family is the go to church every Sunday (and Sunday night...and Wednesday) kind of family.  My fiancé's is Catholic and has been baptized, done 1st communion and is confirmed, but his family isn't as active in the church. Basically, I thought I'd have more control over the religious side of the wedding than I do. I went to a few RCIA classes (just to learn things. I'm NOT converting.) and felt like I was in 1st grade sunday school all over gain, so I stopped. I feel like I have a really good handle on the religion...after all, it's not *that* different than Methodist. Question #1. <strong>How do you promise to raise your kids Catholic if that's not what you believe? If they ask me a question, I'm not going to tell them something I don't believe. I don't understand this part of the requirements of the church.</strong> The kids have free will, they can go to whatever church they want, since they'll be exposed to both... Question #2 My fiancé is being stubborn, insisting on having communion at our wedding. Communion is something that I hold very dear to me, and it hurts me to think I wouldn't be able to participate in this part of my own wedding. (I know a lot of priests won't even let this occur since both of us aren't Catholic...but some do. We haven't had that talk yet with the priest). The marriage will still be a sacrament since it's in a church and we're both baptized...<strong>so I don't understand why he's being so stubborn about communion when it's a known source of my frustration with the church.</strong> Sorry for the rant...
Posted by JCM10[/QUOTE]

I know I'm a little late to the party, but hopefully you're still checking this thread.

My first question is why are you getting married in the Catholic Church if it is something you so obviously disagree with?  You said that you are confused by some of the practices and beliefs of the Church and you are not planning on converting.   Are you just getting maried in the Church for FI?  In that case, I don't see why the communion issue is such a big deal.  If it's important to you to be married in a Church, you might need to fins something that gives you a little more leeway with your practices.  Is getting married in the UMC an opition for you?

Second, you said you don't understand why you don't have more control over the religious aspects.  That is the priest's job.  He is there to facilitate open communication between you and your FI and to provide spiritual guidance.  If you disagree with this, again, I'm not sure why you would want to be married in the Church. 

In terms of raising your children Catholic, I agree with PP (i forget who--sorry!) that I view the teaching of different religious doctrines to be standing in the way of raising your children to be Catholic.  When I was a teenager, my parents accompanied me to various church services (Jewish, Methodist, Baptists, Evangelical) because I wanted to learn more about different religions.  In fact, I went to Catholic high school and researching other religions and comparing/contrasting those with the C.C. was a requirement (although this is just one school's assingment and isn't the same everywhere).  I understand that you would like to educate your children in your religion, as you have the right to do, but I think this is confusing and prohibits the requirement to raise your children Catholic.  It does not say "expose your children to Catholicism."  I think it is implicit that the requirement is to raise children who espouse the beliefs of the Catholic church.

Finally, have you talked honestly and openly about the communion issue with your FI?  (Although I was under the impression that a full Mass was not an option when one member of the marrying party was not Catholic).  Does he know that is is bothering you?  DO you know why this is so important for him?  I understand that you think he doesn't attend Mass regularly, so this shouldn't be an issue, but it is his religion.  I think that you both need to really think about marriage when you are both so adamant about your religious beliefs.

It's better to have this discussion now, before you are married, than to realize these differences have created a wedge in your home after you're married.  I wish you the best of luck!

Calypso1977

i think there is a big difference between TEACHING kids about other faiths, and how they differ from Catholicism, and why Catholicism is the religion they are being raised in rather than those religions, and actually encouraging the WORSHIP of other faiths.  The problem OP will ultimately face someday is "why does mom go to X church and we go to Y church" and "how come mom doesnt take communion with us on the occasions she joins us as our church".  that's difficult stuff for a parent to have to explain and deal with.

i had a wide variety of friends of different faiths growing up.  i often would ask them about their religions and i'd ask my parents about them.  i was defintiely aware of other faiths, why we were Catholic, and the differences.  but i was never allowed to worship in a church other than a Catholic church, and i was strongly encouraged to marry someone Cathoilc, although as i got older, this became an obvious choice to me regardless. 

mica178

All I can say is that it sounds like you and your FI need to talk a little more about your future intentions.  One of my favorite parts of the pre-cana in the Catholic church is that it always asks that the couple discuss the important topics of children, raising children in a religion, and different viewpoints between couples of mixed religions before the priest agrees to preside over the wedding.

I was offered a full mass even though I am marrying a Presbyterian.  Ultimately, we decided to do the ceremony outside of mass because I felt that symbolically I didn't want to start our married lives with different experiences at the altar.  However, my priest offered the full mass, and he said if my FI was committed to RCIA, he'd apply for a dispensation for FI to receive communion at the wedding even if the RCIA wasn't done.  (My FI still hasn't decided, so we didn't go down that road.)  However, it sounds like you do not want to become a Catholic, so I don't think that'll be an option for you.

Meet with the priest and see what he has to say about the matter.  Chances are that your priest has married mixed religion couples before and is used to addressing these issues.

bibliophile2010

I fully agree that you and your fiance need to sit down and have an open, honest conversation about the roles of religion in your lives and in your future children's lives. Even if you feel like you have done so, it appears that there might be some unresolved issues.  This needs to be a conversation. It might be difficult and emotional, but you should avoid turning it into an argment or a heated debate about your religions. It is better to figure this stuff out now than down the road when there are actual children involved.

I also agree that you should talk to the priest. Even though it is possible to have a mass when one party is not Catholic, I know that it is discouraged. I think that, given your strong views on communion and the Eucharist, a priest would likely discourage you and your fiance from including it, since it is an issue that causes great division between you. Since marriage is meant to unite, something that divides, not just symbolically but emotionally, seems like a poor choice. 

LAK011

As many others have said, there definitely needs to be an open line of communication between your FI and yourself about this. Before my fiance and I even got engaged, religion was the number one topic. He is Catholic and I (like yourself) was raised Methodist. His family is very involved in the church, while my family strayed from the Methodist church, so there was no problem realizing which church we were going to be married in. When it came to the question of full Mass vs. ceremony, it was a bit more difficult. The final decision was that a non Mass service was our best option. His SIL is getting her masters in theology (of some sort), and she is avid in teaching in the Catholic church, and she made a good point: "The Eucharist is supposed to be bringing people together to worship at God's table, but when a couple is unable to do so together, it is almost like keeping the division there." So instead of being a unity, it is still a division. I realize I could've gotten a blessing, but it's just not the same. Good luck JCM!

JCM10

I agree, LAK. I don't see why we'd do anything to cause a division during the ceremony. For many couples it's they're first act together as a married couple... for our first act to be one of division doesn't make me too happy.

Our getting married in the Catholic church is mostly because we're having the wedding in his hometown...so naturally, at his church. It's just a strange place for me to be in, because although I don't believe several of the distinctly Catholic doctrines, I don't think they're "wrong" or anything. I'd never tell my kids they couldn't join the Catholic church if that's what they believed. My mom was talking me today (she's VERY involved as a lay leader in the Methodist church), and was asking if I was going to raise them going to both churches, so then when they got to middle school/HS age (the stage where a lot of kids 'rebel' and quit going to church) their 'rebellion' would be only going to one church. Made me laugh I guess she got lucky that I've voluntarily gone (nearly) every week of my life...I thought that was normal until late high school, honestly...

Communion is a sacrament in the Methodist church too. That's one of the reasons I am not a fan of having it at a mixed wedding. I do respect marriage being a sacrament enough to not fight my FI on not getting married in the Catholic church. I moved several times, so I don't have a church that I've been in forever...and due to family reasons, we will be getting married where he's from. But since marriage itself is a sacrament for him, I feel it is important to let him have that. But communion is a sacrament for both of us, and if we can't both do it, I would like it to not be in our ceremony.

We're a long time for the wedding...I know having meetings with the priest will help work this out...and I'm betting he'll agree with my hesitation about mass. If we got married in a Methodist church we could (technically, although I know most Catholics don't do it...) both take Communion. Being raised with an 'open table' then getting used to mass has been...interesting. 

Also, I'm glad you girls gave real advice instead of telling me to go to RCIA to learn more, like so many have. I went to some classes with a friend who was going through it, and I was bored out of my mind. Although Catholicism is very different than other Christian religions, Methodism is very liturgical and traditional...so there's a huge amount of similarities. So much of it was what seemed like general Christian living things; very little Bible/scripture analyzing...strange to me. I've had friends helping me find what I'm looking for, though. Every question I asked was answered with a different interpretation of scriptures I knew through methodist theology. I definitely see how some of them go both ways...but others I definitely don't. My sunday school 'fun' as a child was to have races to find the day's verses the fastest in the Bible...memorizing the books in order. My FI thought it was weird that I have like 10 Bibles (KJV from baptism...a kids one...one my church gave me in 4th grade...middle school...one i got for confirmation....high school...various translations to go with different studies...the one I bought for college...etc.) That fact alone makes me really confused about Catholics. 

Anyway. Enough late night rambling...we'll see when I look back how much made sense