NWR: Racial differences in Advances

elizabeth121985

I truly hope that this question does not come across as ignorant or offensive.  That is the last thing I'm trying to do....

I've noticed over the past few years living in a large city that different racial and ethnic groups interact with me as a woman very differently.  Certain groups (Asian and Caucasian) are not very vocal or direct in their advances and compliments.  Hispanics and African Americans on the other hand will obviously stare and gawk at you, and are also very comfortable throwing out cat calls and such.

I'm not trying to make a blanket statement about ALL individuals of certain groups, but rather that this is a general observation I've made.

My point is that such blunt and obvious oggling of me makes me very uncomfortable.  To the point where I'll avoid eye contact at all cost and stare at the ground when such incidences happen. 

Is this offensive to those groups of men?  Does it come across as discriminatory and/or rude when I obviously try to avoid certain groups of men because their obvious advances make me uncomfortable?

I know it's not wedding related, but I'm honestly very interested to hear different opinions.

louisvillebride21

Oh shiit. You've asked for it now.

cupcakesfrosting

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:bb1b880a-ec1f-4cff-85ad-bf4993f78e4e">NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]I truly hope that this question does not come across as ignorant or offensive.  That is the last thing I'm trying to do.... I've noticed over the past few years living in a large city that different racial and ethnic groups interact with me as a woman very differently.  Certain groups (Asian and Caucasian) are not very vocal or direct in their advances and compliments.  Hispanics and African Americans on the other hand will obviously stare and gawk at you, and are also very comfortable throwing out cat calls and such. I'm not trying to make a blanket statement about ALL individuals of certain groups, but rather that this is a general observation I've made. My point is that such blunt and obvious oggling of me makes me very uncomfortable.  To the point where I'll avoid eye contact at all cost and stare at the ground when such incidences happen.  Is this offensive to those groups of men?  Does it come across as discriminatory and/or rude when I obviously try to avoid certain groups of men because their obvious advances make me uncomfortable? I know it's not wedding related, but I'm honestly very interested to hear different opinions.
Posted by elizabeth121985[/QUOTE]

Wow.

[Deleted User]

I'm not sure what you were hoping to accomplish with this post. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I don't know you, so I'm not going to.

midgetthemighty

I am also not sure what you were trying to accomplish with this post. This could get ugly though.

waltzingmatilda13

Well since you're asking if it's offensive to groups of men, you should probably ask them and not us.

But I think I already know the answer to that question.

Meg1036

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:bb1b880a-ec1f-4cff-85ad-bf4993f78e4e">NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]I truly hope that this question does not come across as ignorant or offensive.  That is the last thing I'm trying to do.... I've noticed over the past few years living in a large city that different racial and ethnic groups interact with me as a woman very differently.  Certain groups (Asian and Caucasian) are not very vocal or direct in their advances and compliments.  Hispanics and African Americans on the other hand will obviously stare and gawk at you, and are also very comfortable throwing out cat calls and such. I'm not trying to make a blanket statement about ALL individuals of certain groups, but rather that this is a general observation I've made. My point is that such blunt and obvious oggling of me makes me very uncomfortable.  To the point where I'll avoid eye contact at all cost and stare at the ground when such incidences happen.  Is this offensive to those groups of men?  Does it come across as discriminatory and/or rude when I obviously try to avoid certain groups of men because their obvious advances make me uncomfortable? I know it's not wedding related, but I'm honestly very interested to hear different opinions.
Posted by elizabeth121985[/QUOTE]

Want to talk about cat-calling in the street, how its inappropriate, how it makes you feel, and how to respond?  Fine.  The gender dynamics and sexism behind that kind of street heckling are actually deeper and more interesting than a lot of people realize.

Want to talk about it in the context of race, while specifically calling out two historically impoverished, undereducated, and underserved sections of the population, and over-generalize (because anytime you base a statement on race you overgeneralize, whether you mean to or not)?  NOT FINE. 

I really tried to ignore this, but you got my hackles up.  I really suggest you apologize for making such a post, and leave.

louisvillebride21

Yeah, you wouldn't believe the cat calls I got in Italy. Neither black, nor hispanic. I don't think it's a race thing, it's maybe a cultural thing though.

cupcakesfrosting

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:8762803f-9572-456b-90bd-1f9d48813556">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]Yeah, you wouldn't believe the cat calls I got in Italy. Neither black, nor hispanic. I don't think it's a race thing, it's maybe a cultural thing though.
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]

Maybe. I kind of just think it's a guy thing. Guys (and girls for that matter) of all shapes, sizes, colors, and races cat call and act inappropriately.

midgetthemighty

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:f5df0904-32e2-4cbb-918b-49a08c7869f0">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances : Maybe. I kind of just think it's a guy thing. Guys (and girls for that matter) of all shapes, sizes, colors, and races cat call and act inappropriately.
Posted by cupcakesfrosting[/QUOTE]

Yes - so there's no need to make it a race issue.

louisvillebride21

I think it's mroe than just a 'guy' thing. I think some cultures, it's more acceptable than others. And that can include sub-cultures. I know in Italy it was just EVERYWHERE. Even the professional looking business men had that roving eye and come hither look to them. But I didn't notice that in say London or Paris at all.

lyndausvi

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

There are some groups of men down here who have no problem freely expressing their rude and crude advances to woman.  Personally, I think it's part culturally.   As I find the some women in their culture are not bothered by (and sometimes seek out) their advancements

I just ignore them... Since I'm sure they are not concerned if I'm offended by their remarks, I do not concern myself with wondering if they think I'm rude by ignoring them.   

lyndausvi

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:4ba765b5-bcd8-4ef0-ab5a-bf72a02c4980">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]I think it's mroe than just a 'guy' thing. I think some cultures, it's more acceptable than others. And that can include sub-cultures. I know in Italy it was just EVERYWHERE. Even the professional looking business men had that roving eye and come hither look to them. But I didn't notice that in say London or Paris at all.
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I agree with you.  St Thomians, Haitians, Dominicans, etc are all [mostly] black.  But they have culturally differences on this and other subjects.. It's not fair to lump them all up just because they are black and/or come from an island.

</div>

Stackeye210

Way to stereotype and look like a stuck up snob all at the same time.  Awesome. 

elizabeth121985

Ok, well it looks like this was taken the wrong way.  I apologize for offending anyone.

I'm African american myself and have mostly dated white men. I also grew up with 2 white adoptive parents.   It's a geniuine question and I never meant to offend anyone. 

Lots of non wedding related topics are posted on this site, so I thought it would be a fair place to ask the question and get honest answers.  I didn't ask out of ignorance, but rather out of genuine curiosity. 

I guess I made an incorrect assumption....

FutureMrsTR

If anything, it's cultural, you can't stereotype based on skin color or race.  Well, I guess you can since you did, but you know what I mean.

I'm not sure why you would think it's appropriate to roll up in here with 16 posts and start talking about something so potentially inflammatory.

Meg1036

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:80394fbc-47c2-4958-805a-37bdd6bde33c">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]Ok, well it looks like this was taken the wrong way.  I apologize for offending anyone. I'm African american myself and have mostly dated white men. I also grew up with 2 white adoptive parents.   It's a geniuine question and I never meant to offend anyone.  Lots of non wedding related topics are posted on this site, so I thought it would be a fair place to ask the question and get honest answers.  I didn't ask out of ignorance, but rather out of genuine curiosity.  I guess I made an incorrect assumption....
Posted by elizabeth121985[/QUOTE]

I really don't care if you're purple.  Your own racial background has very little to do with this.

Yes, people ask NWR things on this site all the time.  Yes, those conversations tend to be interesting.  As I mentioned before, a question about how to respond to cat-calling, asking other posters about how they feel when it happens to them, that's all within the normal range of topics covered here.

This was taken the wrong way because you inserted race into a conversation that has nothing to do with race.  Street harassment exists across all races, although it is more prominent in some cultures than others, as pps stated.  Your OP starts with talking about race, then actually gets to the point of street harassment.  By conflating the two issues, you guaranteed that no one would take this the "right" way.

TheCranberry

I noticed a difference in catcalling when I moved to NYC from Boston.  Men do it in NYC much more than men in Boston.  I've been here for almost 10 years so I have pretty much perfected my NYC game face (to avoid catcallers as much as general crazy people).  I don't really care if men get upset or offended because I don't make eye contact with them.  If someone has a legitimate question for me (eg, tourists needing help with the subway), I help them, but for the most part I don't talk to strangers (men or women).

I think the problem for you is that you're stereotyping certain groups of people.  You're assuming all black men or latino men are going to be rude based on the actions of a few.  Would you like a shopkeeper to follow you around the store because a black woman stole a shirt from him last week?  It's the same thing. 

As a city dweller you should take safety precautions, but don't think you're safe just avoiding certain races.  People of all races can catcall you or commit crimes. 

Edited for clarity!

elizabeth121985

okay, okay.  i shouldn't have posted this here.  wrong place i guess.  i was genuinely interested, and in my unfortunate wording attempt came across as stereotypical and offensive.

thank you so much to those who provided constructive (and even critical) feedback.  to those i offended i'm sorry.  i apologize.  over and over.

2010Bride2be

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:bb1b880a-ec1f-4cff-85ad-bf4993f78e4e">NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]I truly hope that this question does not come across as ignorant or offensive.  That is the last thing I'm trying to do.... I've noticed over the past few years living in a large city that different racial and ethnic groups interact with me as a woman very differently.  Certain groups (Asian and Caucasian) are not very vocal or direct in their advances and compliments.  Hispanics and African Americans on the other hand will obviously stare and gawk at you, and are also very comfortable throwing out cat calls and such. I'm not trying to make a blanket statement about ALL individuals of certain groups, but rather that this is a general observation I've made.<strong> My point is that such blunt and obvious oggling of me makes me very uncomfortable.  To the point where I'll avoid eye contact at all cost and stare at the ground when such incidences happen.</strong>  Is this offensive to those groups of men?  Does it come across as discriminatory and/or rude when I obviously try to avoid certain groups of men because their obvious advances make me uncomfortable? I know it's not wedding related, but I'm honestly very interested to hear different opinions.
Posted by elizabeth121985[/QUOTE]

Wow...talk about thinking highly of yourself..this takes it to a whole different level. Are you really that gorgeous and showstopping that this is even that big of an issue for you?

emilyinchile

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:8762803f-9572-456b-90bd-1f9d48813556">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]Yeah, you wouldn't believe the cat calls I got in Italy. Neither black, nor hispanic. I don't think it's a race thing, it's maybe a cultural thing though.
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]

It's very cultural - Latin culture in that example, which we get in Latin America too.

OP, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt because I understand what I think you were trying to say. Living in Chile, many men think it's fine and even complimentary to cat call, whistle, make kissing noises, etc. It drives me CRAZY. And yes, I have crossed the street so as not to walk right past a construction site before and usually turn my head away from groups of men as I walk by. This behavior is now so ingrained in me that I do it in California too, where there are plenty of Latino men, even though I've never been cat called in Calfornia.

I hope that I haven't offended anyone in the US by doing that. I hope that looking like I'm very interested in something happening in the other direction isn't obviously "I'm trying to look away from you." I think whether or not your avoidance is offensive depends on how you're doing it. Crossing the street at a stoplight because you saw a group of people you wanted to avoid (for whatever reason) up ahead isn't going to be obvious, but looking at a group of men sitting there minding their own business in horror before running past them probably is, and that's probably going to offend.

emilyinchile

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:0168277b-25e1-4f2a-a0fd-8134434f5ec2">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to NWR: Racial differences in Advances : Wow...talk about thinking highly of yourself..this takes it to a whole different level. Are you really that gorgeous and showstopping that this is even that big of an issue for you?
Posted by 2010Bride2be[/QUOTE]

I don't understand this criticism. If men are cat calling her, and it makes her uncomfortable, how on earth does that mean she's just imagining herself as a drop-dead gorgeous supermodel? Criticize the OP for the race stuff, sure, but this makes no sense to me.

TheCranberry

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:0168277b-25e1-4f2a-a0fd-8134434f5ec2">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to NWR: Racial differences in Advances : Wow...talk about thinking highly of yourself..this takes it to a whole different level. Are you really that gorgeous and showstopping that this is even that big of an issue for you?
Posted by 2010Bride2be[/QUOTE]

Regardless of how the person looks, it can be pretty offensive and uncomfortable when random men are hissing at you, making kissing noises, staring you up and down, asking you why you're not smiling, saying you're too pretty not to smile, etc.  If it doesn't bother you, fine, but she (and others) aren't crazy for wanting to avoid this type of behavior.

elizabeth121985

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:0168277b-25e1-4f2a-a0fd-8134434f5ec2">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to NWR: Racial differences in Advances : Wow...talk about thinking highly of yourself..this takes it to a whole different level. Are you really that gorgeous and showstopping that this is even that big of an issue for you?
Posted by 2010Bride2be[/QUOTE]

Yes, I'm just <em>that gorgeous!</em>  Geez, no.  I apologized.  I take it back.  times 10.

I feel like there are divides among racial groups because no one ever asks questions.  Everyone is too politically correct to really put themselves out there for fear of being flamed.  Or at least an as AA growing up in a white home this is how I felt.  I would rather someone ask an ignorant questions, but get an honest answer and maybe gain some insight.

I see now that apparently because of my wording that is not the case here.  Wrong question, wrong place.

elizabeth121985

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:7f459b16-4ad7-4a4e-af75-44a408ea47a5">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances : It's very cultural - Latin culture in that example, which we get in Latin America too. OP, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt because I understand what I think you were trying to say. Living in Chile, many men think it's fine and even complimentary to cat call, whistle, make kissing noises, etc. It drives me CRAZY. And yes, I have crossed the street so as not to walk right past a construction site before and usually turn my head away from groups of men as I walk by. This behavior is now so ingrained in me that I do it in California too, where there are plenty of Latino men, even though I've never been cat called in Calfornia. I hope that I haven't offended anyone in the US by doing that. I hope that looking like I'm very interested in something happening in the other direction isn't obviously "I'm trying to look away from you." I think whether or not your avoidance is offensive depends on how you're doing it. Crossing the street at a stoplight because you saw a group of people you wanted to avoid (for whatever reason) up ahead isn't going to be obvious, but looking at a group of men sitting there minding their own business in horror before running past them probably is, and that's probably going to offend.
Posted by emilyinchile[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for the constructive and insightful feedback.  This is what I'm talking about not understanding. 

But I guess instead of noticing the differences among racial groups, I should have used the phrase "cultural differences".

emilyinchile

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:2386574f-ec76-4833-bcbe-2d8b65cf901e">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances : Yes, I'm just that gorgeous!   Geez, no.  I apologized.  I take it back.  times 10. I feel like there are divides among racial groups because no one ever asks questions.  <strong>Everyone is too politically correct to really put themselves out there for fear of being flamed. </strong> Or at least an as AA growing up in a white home this is how I felt.  <strong>I would rather someone ask an ignorant questions, but get an honest answer and maybe gain some insight.</strong> I see now that apparently because of my wording that is not the case here.  Wrong question, wrong place.
Posted by elizabeth121985[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I agree with you. My MIL is Chilean and has never met a black person (not many in Chile). She once asked me if they smelled different, if their food was different, if they talked different. At first, I was totally floored - that question is not ok! But the fact is that she really doesn't know, and she was curious, and I'm the only person she knows who has friends who are black. It gave me an opportunity to explain that for the most part, there aren't huge differences but that there is a kind of black culture that some people identify with in the same way that any cultural group can be part of a population and also have its own culture.

Moneypenny424

I'm going to jump in here and agree that much of this is cultural.  Mr. Penny, SIL and I talk about this very issue regularly.  Part of it may be that as a black woman, black men feel more comfortable being complimentary toward me.  Sometimes, it can be rude and make me uncomfortable, but I don't generally believe that is how it is intended.

It's funny that PP said she gets cat calls in Boston way more than in NYC.  This is 100% the opposite for me.  In general, American white men do not make cat calls at me. 
 

FutureMrsTR

MP - I think she said she gets more cat calls now that she moved TO NYC from Boston.  I had to read that line more than once to get it, haha.

Moneypenny424

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:9bcd412d-d295-4881-b95c-c8e2f3b7a799">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]MP - I think she said she gets more cat calls now that she moved TO NYC from Boston.  I had to read that line more than once to get it, haha.
Posted by FutureMrsTR[/QUOTE]

Oops!  You're right!  That makes much more sense :)

TheCranberry

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:2c3af590-c449-45e8-912b-12195c973d84">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm going to jump in here and agree that much of this is cultural.  Mr. Penny, SIL and I talk about this very issue regularly.  Part of it may be that as a black woman, black men feel more comfortable being complimentary toward me.  Sometimes, it can be rude and make me uncomfortable, but I don't generally believe that is how it is intended. <strong>It's funny that PP said she gets cat calls in Boston way more than in NYC.  This is 100% the opposite for me.  In general, American white men do not make cat calls at me. </strong>  
Posted by Moneypenny424[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to me?  I  meant that I get more cat calls in NYC than in Boston.  Sorry for the confusion.  I remember being shocked at all of the catcalling when I first moved to NYC because it rarely happened in Boston.  I don't know if it's the city or the fact that I spent most of my type around my school's campus. 

Now that I'm older, it's more of men saying "you're too pretty not to smile" and stuff like that rather than the kissing noises.  Or sometimes the high school students from the school around the corner from my office try to holler and say they want to hang with a couger.  I actually laugh at the kids because they are just so ridiculous.  But I'm only 32!  That's not old enough to be a couger.... is it?

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-racial-differences-advances?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:058037f5-ab66-4944-b968-b3c16d1936fbPost:26679ee6-f29f-4179-af75-f308f4a6e8bb">Re: NWR: Racial differences in Advances</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to NWR: Racial differences in Advances : Want to talk about cat-calling in the street, how its inappropriate, how it makes you feel, and how to respond?  Fine.  The gender dynamics and sexism behind that kind of street heckling are actually deeper and more interesting than a lot of people realize. Want to talk about it in the context of race, while specifically calling out two historically impoverished, undereducated, and underserved sections of the population, and over-generalize (because anytime you base a statement on race you overgeneralize, whether you mean to or not)?  NOT FINE.  I really tried to ignore this, but you got my hackles up.  I really suggest you apologize for making such a post, and leave.
Posted by Meg1036[/QUOTE]

IAWTC