Bullying Gone Too Far?

goheels05

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:9e8cb504-bcb8-404f-9d21-e26a2497cf6e">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : You're right, I take it all back.  I couldn't possible have any opinion on bullying because this is the first time I've ever heard of bullying and I haven't been following the particulars of this case since "day 1"
Posted by angiebear11[/QUOTE]


What I'm saying is that if all the people in this thread who have actually followed this case feel one way and you, who has only read a single opinion piece on it, feels another way, there might be something to that. 

J&K10910

I think it's unfortunate that we were having a rousing and interesting discussion of the topic and someone has to come in just to take a jab at someone else. 

angiebear11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:8f7674ba-e85e-4e12-8a8a-74fb2f8a3deb">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]Angie, I kind of get what you are saying, too, but kids need to be sent a message that bullying won't be tolerated.  <strong>And if these twats have to go to jail for 10 years to get that message across and save future kids from dealing with similar crap, then so be it. </strong>
Posted by goheels05[/QUOTE]

That's where I disagree with you.  I get that kids need to be sent the message that bullying wont be tolerated, but no with such a harsh sentence. 

angiebear11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:d8f77957-a1cf-4ac1-afcc-6fb7ede0a982">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : Yes, if they were charged with a crime and that was part of the sentence, absolutely. Do I recall correctly that you're in the legal field, Angie?  If so, you should know that attorneys often charge people with the most "severe" crime they legally can, in hopes of getting them convicted of SOMETHING, even if it's lesser (like...oh, say, harassment, perhaps?).  It's not like they're charging them with murder.  That I don't agree with. 
Posted by J&K10910[/QUOTE]

Thank you for answering, I was generally interested in what others' opinions were.  And yes I am in the legal field, but I do Trusts and Estates work. 

J&K10910

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:07be0431-1826-4987-8e74-f1769954046f">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : Thank you for answering, I was generally interested in what others' opinions were.  And yes I am in the legal field, but I do Trusts and Estates work. 
Posted by angiebear11[/QUOTE]

Well, that is quite different than criminal law.  Sometimes I forget there are other aspects of the law. 

golden1215

Ok so I'm jumping in late and admitting I havent followed the case from day 1 but what did her parents do about what was going on?

To all of you in favor of jail time for the kids, if the parents did little, or nothing, are they accomplices?  Or guilty by omission?

*not saying whether or not I agree w/ jail time, just asking the question*

J&K10910

Just to expound on what I said before:  Things like being reiumbursed for therapy, lost wages, moving expenses, etc are quite often a part of criminal sentences.  So if someone sexually assaults another person and are convicted, they could very well be sentenced to pay for that person's therapy costs (and related costs--STD testing and treatment and pregnancy testing for example) for the rest of that person's life.  So I don't find that idea to be far fetched at all.

goheels05

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:30c6b0b9-db10-4b06-8b1a-183a85424162">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : That's where I disagree with you.  I get that kids need to be sent the message that bullying wont be tolerated, but no with such a harsh sentence. 
Posted by angiebear11[/QUOTE]


10 years is a really long time.  I'm operating under the assumption that they'll serve only a fraction of that, though, just like other violent criminals. 

J&K10910

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:28337007-8132-40d2-82e8-f54acc3e1b41">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]Ok so I'm jumping in late and admitting I havent followed the case from day 1 but what did her parents do about what was going on? <strong>To all of you in favor of jail time for the kids, if the parents did little, or nothing, are they accomplices?</strong>  Or guilty by omission? *not saying whether or not I agree w/ jail time, just asking the question*
Posted by golden1215[/QUOTE]

Her parents, or the parents of the kids that have been charged?  I think if they knew about it and did nothing they're just as guilty.  Just like if you know about someone robbing a store and you don't provide information to the police, you're guilty of aiding them.

golden1215

Her parents

angiebear11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:495bd818-31cd-426c-9ba3-ec2b8090fd70">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]I understand what you are saying, but I think you are reaching a bit with this particular case.  J&K put it very well... the sentence is the max.  It doesn't mean that's what they are going to get.  What do YOU suggest their punishment be then? 
Posted by mag920[/QUOTE]

I understand.  And I honestly don't know what I think the punishment should be.  I just feel that, with other cases that I heard of, attorneys will be will go for the max punishment to make an example of someone since there isn't really much a a statute on "cyber bullying" (or so I heard, correct me if I'm wrong) and things tend to go a little too far.

goheels05

Her parents did a lot.  They did everything short of taking her out of school.  Her mother spoke to the principal several times.  I'm not sure what the principal did or if that info is even available to the general public, but the general impression I get from other things I've read is that these kids get a slap on the wrist occasionally but pretty much run things at that school. 

RochelleAnn2302

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:3f17c144-bb64-4c93-a785-67bdede82dba">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : Parents were divorced, Dad in Ireland, but Mom was proactive in a) getting Phoebe mental health help and b) trying to rectify the situation at the high school.  As was mentioned by others, there is a long history of bullying at this high school.
Posted by mag920[/QUOTE]

So are the high school administrators still employed? Have they suffered any consequences for the obviously lack of judgement. These bullies should be held responsible for their actions. In some way. I don't know what the right way is. The administrators also need to face some consequences. They saw what this girl was going through. If an administrator watched a student cause bodily harm to another student and let it go unpunished there would be repercussionfor that administrator, should no different here.

tldh

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:6f99a67c-9696-4a8a-bc32-541da27b83fa">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]Just to expound on what I said before:  Things like being reiumbursed for therapy, lost wages, moving expenses, etc are quite often a part of criminal sentences.  So if someone sexually assaults another person and are convicted, they could very well be sentenced to pay for that person's therapy costs (and related costs--STD testing and treatment and pregnancy testing for example) for the rest of that person's life.  So I don't find that idea to be far fetched at all.
Posted by J&K10910[/QUOTE]

Not to go off topic here J&K but these are not typically reimbursed in the criminal courts; in fact it is rare that a criminal court will order any this.  All of these things result from a civil lawsuit that is filed.  Also, a prosecutor is going to charge a person with the highest criminal charge they can get because if they can prove all of the elements of it, that person is guilty.  They may be willing to plea bargain it down but that doesn't mean they didn't intend to prosecute the person to the fullest extent of the law.

goheels05

I don't know, but some of the parents really suck.  One of them said "well Phoebe called my daughter a slut, too."  So? 

jasmineh7777

In high school, I hade a friend that was bullied to death.
I think that the kids that tormented  him every day deserve jail time. I think the teachers that watched it happend and didn't intervene should not be able to teach anymore.
I can't fathom how people don't think kids at their age should be held accountable for their actions.

PharmacyBride

From what I have witnessed back when I was in HS.. what some bullies did was illegal (harassment).  From what I hear.. it is A LOT worse.  If kids are left unaccountable for their actions.. they will only get worse.  (This is why simple frat hazing from our parents generation has lead to death and serious injury... if there were rules (enforced rules) put in place a long time ago.. it never would have escalated to where it is now)

I don't think they should be held accountable for her suicide, unless they knew she was about to do it (and didn't stop it) or if they helped in any way.  Suicide is the victim's decision and it gets too messy when you factor in his/her mental issues.  I think her suicide is the fault of our society.  Our response should be a proactive one (what can we do to prevent this in the future)... not let's punish these 6 kids while thousands more are getting away with across the nation.

BTW... the author is very opinionated and did a LOT of research.  Either she is extremely passionate or is working for the defense to spin pubic relations in their direction.  (I am going to assume the second)

kaesha

I think you're dealing with two separate issues here:

1) What's an appropriate consequence for harassment that leads to someone's mental breakdown and suicide?

2) What's the goal of the consequence? Is it just to punish or is it to reform?

You have to remember that the teenage brain is very different from an adults - when it comes to bullying, victims often can't see a way out other than suicide. It's part of that fight or flight response we all have. The human brain is very, very suggestible, and the teenage one is even more so. You can see a similar kind of suggestibility with cases of internet luring. (Do you have any friends who are depressed? Do you like hanging out with them when they're in a mood or does it rub off on you?) Teens are incredibly easy to manipulate by both adults and each other, so yes, those kids were absolutely responsible for creating her mental state.

These kids were old enough to know that there should be serious consequences for their actions. Personally, I'd prefer to see change and acceptance of responsibility for what they've done, followed by activism on their behalf to prevent future instances of this. But, you can't force someone to take on intrinsic motivation. (I'd like to punch many of their parents in the face too... but I feel that way IRL when I deal with bullies' parents. Usually the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Alas... codes of ethics prevent me...)

If you're really curious about this, you should take a look at some educational psychology books. There are lots out there if you want to understand the teenage brain better.

L-Bride

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:a1856384-48c3-4519-8b43-21c80b9633af">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : Heaven forbid kids get held accountable when they do awful things.  personally, I'm tired of the line "It's high school, of course kids are going to get bullied."  Bullshit.  Yeah, unfortunately it's ridiculously common, but what gets me about it is that most of the time, nothing is done.  That's not the way it should be.
Posted by J&K10910[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more.

I would also like to add that maybe if parents disciplined their kids a bit more the law wouldn't have to intervene and play parent. Parents love to turn the other cheek when it comes to their little darlings. When it's called to their attention that their kid <em>has</em>done something wrong they are the first person making the excuse for their sh!tty kid.  Bottom line is that this situation could have been avoided if more adults had stepped in. I hope this sends a strong message to kids, parents and administration.

J&K10910

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:587dcaae-23dd-4b67-8999-0f9971b5a9f3">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : Not to go off topic here J&K but these are not typically reimbursed in the criminal courts; in fact it is rare that a criminal court will order any this.  All of these things result from a civil lawsuit that is filed.  Also, a prosecutor is going to charge a person with the highest criminal charge they can get because if they can prove all of the elements of it, that person is guilty.  They may be willing to plea bargain it down but that doesn't mean they didn't intend to prosecute the person to the fullest extent of the law.
Posted by tldh[/QUOTE]

In MN we have a Crime Victims Reparation Board which pays these things and then the defendant is ordered to pay back the Board.  Also, as a probation officer writing pre-sentence investigations, we often recommended restitution to be paid as part of sentencing.  Perhaps it's different in NJ.

ricksang

They deserve to be punished.

myother1

If the suicide was the direct result (the fault) of the students who bullied her, whose fault was her previous suicide attempt?  Was it Sean's fault, since he was trying to break up with her that evening?  If she had succeed in killing herself then, should he stand trial for her death?

Who's fault was the cutting?  The drinking and drug use?  The sleeping around?

This girl had serious mental health issues.  The bullies were wrong for harassing her, and should be punished in some way, but in the end, suicide is the choice of the individual. 

As a PP noted, teenagers are ridiculously dramatic and irrational.  Sadly, there will always be tragic cases who do dumb things like overdose on drugs, drive their cars into trees, and attempt suicide.  That's not to say we shouldn't try to prevent it -- we certainly should -- but something about throwing those other kids in jail makes me uncomfortable.  They're being charged with an injury that Pheobe inflicted upon herself. 

I guess we'll see how it all turns out.

LD1970

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:587dcaae-23dd-4b67-8999-0f9971b5a9f3">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : Not to go off topic here J&K but these are not typically reimbursed in the criminal courts; in fact it is rare that a criminal court will order any this.  All of these things result from a civil lawsuit that is filed.  Also, a prosecutor is going to charge a person with the highest criminal charge they can get because if they can prove all of the elements of it, that person is guilty.  They may be willing to plea bargain it down but that doesn't mean they didn't intend to prosecute the person to the fullest extent of the law.
Posted by tldh[/QUOTE]
Actually, at least in NJ, a lot of this CAN be reimbursed, though not technically directly by the defendant.  We've got the VCCB (Violent Crimes Compensation Board).  The Office of Victim-Witness Advocacy, which is part of the prosecutor's office and is available to all victims of crime in NJ, will help victims fill out the applications for reimbursement of these expenses.<div>
</div><div>And all defendants who are found guilty or plead guilty have as part of their penalty a fine that gets paid into the VCCB fund.  So they pay into the pool and victims take out of it.</div>

myother1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:84171bb0-d1b4-48f5-a293-eccda54e1511">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]Again I will ask, should these students NOT get punished for their harrassment?!
Posted by mag920[/QUOTE]

I think everyone agrees that they should be punished in some way, but jail time, a felony record, and a lifetime on the sex offender registry may be a little extreme.

What would you suggest?

catemeg

Wow, okay... I'm sure their bullying couldn't be justifiably tried as "murder 2" but as "civil rights violation with bodily injury"?  Abso-freaking-lutely!  Did they violate her civil rights?  Um, yeah!  We're entitled to be free of persecution.  Did bodily injury result from their actions? Not necessarily directly, but definitely indirectly.

As someone who was harassed in school, I will tell you those kids knew what they were doing.  They definitely need to be held accountable.  For me, it was a systematic alienation where I ended up so isolated and harassed, with no help from the teachers, and I felt like there was no way out. One day, 30 boys decided to hold me against a wall to "see if I stuffed with Charmin or Bounty".  I punched one in the nose before they could pull my shirt up.  I ran sobbing to the principal's office, who refused to let me call my parents until I threatened to call a lawyer.  Eventually after a long fight, 30 boys were suspended for sexual harassment.  Do you know what that "suspension" entailed?  Absolutely nothing.  They were still in class with me every single day.  They didn't even have detention.

There wasn't a lot my parents could do. They talked to the teachers every day, but it just got worse.  Several of these kids would drive by my house at night once in awhile for years (presumably with older siblings driving them) and egg my bedroom window.  It sounded like rocks hitting the wall, and eventually my parents moved a bed for me into their closet so I could sleep through the night.

These kids (both the ones I knew and the ones in this case) knew what they were doing - they knew they were being cruel, and they enjoyed it.  They were supported directly and indirectly by their families.  I certainly could not see an end to the torture, and can understand completely that this would drive a young person to take their own life.  I must say I considered it.

So yes, these kids need to be held accountable.  If someone treated you this way at your job, it would be harassment and they would be fired, could be brought up on harassment charges, and your boss would be legally liable for not preventing it based on HR policy.  As an adult, you would file a restraining order against someone who acted like this. If they violated that restraining order, they would go to jail. As a child, would you be brave enough, or know enough, to do that when you have classes with these kids?  The school should have expelled these students, and the police should have been called when they followed her home (that is stalking and harassment).  It sounds like these students should have been expelled long ago.  Their nasty words aren't what is being put on trial - it's their campaign to systematically destroy this girl's life.

tldh

I'm sorry you went through this Catemeg.  I really don't think that unless you've been the target of bullying, you can really comprehend that they are mean little torturers who know exactly what they are doing and know that they will never have to face any consequences. 

myother1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:fe8c4adb-887a-45e1-8330-7a3e2fa3466a">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : I believe that if they are found guilty of the crimes that they are accused of, then they need to face the consequences as they are laid out. These kids are NOT innocents in this situation. You can use the "she was mentally ill" excuse as much as you'd like, but she isn't the first that was bullied by these students, nor is this the first case of bulling in this town/high school.  What do you suggest their punishment be then if not jail time?  Community service? Many of the students have shown no remorse for their actions.  The chances of them being sentenced for 10 years are slim, as many have said before me.<strong>  I just find it interesting that there are people who are insinuating that these students aren't responsible in some way.</strong>
Posted by mag920[/QUOTE]

Well, the trials haven't happened yet, so I'm sure we are lacking in some important details.

But to be honest, I'm not sure that I <em>do</em> believe these students are <em>entirely </em>responsible for Pheobe's death.  Now, my opinion doesn't mean much, considering the fact that I've never been to this town, never visited the school, I don't know these kids, I'm no lawyer, not a judge, and not a parent. 

But I've know people who were seriously mental ill.  Suicidal.  And I'm a high school teacher.   

This girl had trouble at every school she enrolled in during her teenage years.  She was very, very vulnerable.  After the first suicide attempt, she should've been hospitalized for a good period of time; perhaps she should've been taken out of that particular school.

The students should be held accountable for harassment, if they are found guilty.  Especially the three that bullied her on the day of her suicide.   Community service, probation, perhaps counseling.  But the D.A.'s going after several students -- some of whom had little actual contact with Pheobe, and she's charging them tons of different things.

It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out.

myother1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:3daebca3-d553-4b51-a711-20a760010956">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : Have you read anything beyond this article?
Posted by mag920[/QUOTE]

Yes, I've read several news articles over the past few months.  Like I said before, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I remain respectfully reluctant to assign blame.

Goldlie11

Based on what I've read in that article and others, I believe the ones who bullied the girl should be charged with harassment.  I think that bullying is often treated too lightly.  Meanwhile, there are many studies that show the psychological damage that bullying causes.  

True bullying should be treated by schools in the same manner that schools deal with physical violence.  Those who bullied Phoebe should have been expelled way before the situation escalated.  

myother1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_bullying-gone-far?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:07db50fe-ab27-4301-972b-cc0387bdbbf5Post:11b43edf-c33e-4057-ab0d-be84bf744c72">Re: Bullying Gone Too Far?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bullying Gone Too Far? : Clearly you are entitled to that, just as I am entitled to not understand how someone who says that they are an educator, who has read up on this case etc. feels that blame cannot be assigned.
Posted by mag920[/QUOTE]

Being an educator, I know that no school is completely free of bullying.  Bullies are often bullied themselves.  Teenagers have complicated and capricious relationships; rarely is life as simple as perfect "good guys" vs. nefarious "bad guys."  Add mental illness into the mix, and things get very, very complex.  This is why I reserve judgement.

I would hope that even if you don't understand my position, you respect my right to have an opinion that doesn't necessarily agree with yours.