Oh goddess, it's slow.

yuodelj

"I just think the Bible is the reason for all the really bad things in this world."

ricksang

God and the Bible are not bad. although I think they are both fantasy. It is the people behind the Bible and people who read the Bible who CAN be bad. Again this quote sums it up well I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

yuodelj

I agree w/ that...just not what you said before. Hence the gun argument.

Ciaram22

"I just think the Bible is the reason for all the really bad things in this world." I agree. There are some cold blooded killers out there who say that they did what they did because god told them to. In my beliefs there is no way in he!! that god would ever tell someone that they should kill someone.

KA2

@ Jill againit goes back to my earlier definition of marriage - God ordained and instituted marriage - so He gets to call the shots on what a marriage is and isn't and according to the Bible, which I believe, gay marriage doesn't fit the bill.

yuodelj

Although I would never call it fantasy. The Bible is full of lessons NOT fantasys....

kkchisholm

rick- im dissagreeing with most you say.. except that quote you put up there. extremely true.

yuodelj

Ciaram22 People are the reasons for the bad things that happen in this world....NOT the bible.

Ciaram22

And how the he!! do we know what god thinks. No one actually speaks to him about his beliefs we just get what our church tell us which is just what they think.

ricksang

I just think the Bible is the reason for all the really bad things in this world." Yes. People wrote the Bible. People use the Bible over and over again as a stance (sp?) to breed more hate. People open their Bibles, Qur'an, or whatever and say, "Here, right here, is where it says that (what I don't like/agree with) is wrong."

ggmae

I 100% agree that the way in which people interpret the Bible to fit their needs and wants contributes greatly to all of the violence and hatred in this world. The Bible, IMO, is not very straightforward and leaves a lot of room for interpretation - which is what people do.

yuodelj

Free will leads to good things and bad things....

KA2

@ggmae, I didn't say your marriage wasn't blessed by God. However, to the best of my knowledge, a JOP is not a position ordained by the Church correct? A JOP could be of any faith, religion, background. I would want a minister in the Church who shares my faith and beliefs to pray with my future husband and I.

WildRumpus

KA2, just out of curiosity, do you also believe that being gay is a choice?

KA2

@ jill yes I do.

ricksang

Free will leads to good things and bad things.... I agree. So are you saying that gay people should have the freedom to choose to get married or not then? ;P

WildRumpus

KA,so my aunt CHOSE to have her parents and friends ostracize her?Did you CHOOSE to be straight? Or to fall in love with your FI? Or did it just happen?

Ciaram22

Like I said before if god had a problem with gays they wouldn't be here.

ricksang

K2 really? So you think gay people choose to be beat to death, ridiculed, or shunned by society by choice?

yuodelj

I believe they should have the same legel rights but the church should not be forced to join them...As far as choosing to be gay....well I don't know because I'm not gay.

sucrets4

ciara - duh, you know god put them there so that the good christians can convert them.

ggmae

KA - Being gay is not a choice. My gay friend said he would give anything to be able to love a woman and to be accepted by society, but that he cannot force something he doesn't feel. If being gay is a choice, why would my friend CHOOSE to be subjected to such hatred and judgement by others in this world? I obviously don't agree that a marriage has to be blessed by the Church/God in order to be a marriage. As long as two people love one another and are ready to commit to each other, then they should be able to be married under law. I also believe that the Church should have no influence over the law and vice versa and therefore, same-sex marriage should not be such a large issue in this country. And FWIW, our JOP is both a JOP and an ordained minister. Many JOPs have become JOPs as well in order to be able to accommodate same-sex couples.

AmoroAgain

I once had a professor of biology tell me that he never argued with people who argued the Bible on science.  He said that, no matter what logical, cohesive argument you ever could come up with, they would always beat it with "God did that to test us" .  How can you argue that dinosaurs were actually living and breathing and were here millions of years ago with someone that believes that the earth is only a few thousand years old?  Sadly, I don't ever think there is any way to win this argument with people.  Though I believe that a majority of Americans feel that gays should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, nothing will change until the government stops being scared of the social conservative minority who provide a lot of funding for our politicians to stay in office.  At the end of the day, you can never win an argument between science and religion.  They are diametrically opposing views, based on diametrically opposing belief systems.  I'll put my views out there, I'll stand behind what I believe, but I'll not try to change someone else's viewpoint (such as KA's) that is so deeply rooted in religion, that it's all they see.  None of us here will ever change that.

yuodelj

I believe in the Big Bang...I just believe God set it in motion......

ggmae

Amoro - Very good points. This is one reason why I listen and talk with DH about such topics rather than get angry and push my beliefs on him. His beliefs are based upon what he believes the Bible says and I know that after 24 years, it would be near impossible to change them.

KA2

@ Ciaram I disagree here - God created all of us with free will to choose and do as we please - He could have created us without free will but He didn't. Hence yes, people have the right to choose how they life their lives. But sometimes we humans, choose to do things our own way and then wind up with less than desirable results. Yes, sometimes God allows certain things to happen to people that love and worship Him but only to show forth His glory when He brings them out of the problems.

WildRumpus

I guess I should say that I DO believe in God, but I can also understand logic. It just bothers me when people have to "go by the book" on everything. I think the Bible was meant as a sort of guideline from God, but people got involved and screwed it up.

ricksang

Amoro very good points.

tlv204

I'm super duper late to this argument buuuut...1. Not at all.2.  I'm only 24, but the binge drinking days are leaving me.3. Definitely for. Equality.   I agree with most of you about God being the only judge, and do not thing homosexuality is a choice, that legally it should be the same marriage as heterosexual couples, but that it shouldn't be forced on churches, and that I hate hate hate when people use the Bible to justify their idiocy and judgment. You guys have covered most of it I think.4. Probably not, but I don't thin you ever answered about whether or not you have guests coming over.  I have a feeling you've decided by now not to clean the house

KA2

@gmmae, about your friend - if you were a Christian, I would say that you could pray for him, that God would take away his unnatural desires for someone of the same sex. Because this is my belief and my faith and really that is all I can say on the topic. The devil has perpetrated so many lies in society that lead people to believe that being gay is not a choice they make. I believe this is one example that the Bible refers to when it says "My people perish for lack of knowledge because they have rejected me [God]." Hosea 4:6