Religion and culture.

Celles

CN: FI is agnostic but still identifies as Catholic.  Is this weird?  Or is there a cultural component to religion that I'm overlooking?

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I'm an atheist.  FI was raised Catholic and still identifies as such, although he is currently non-practicing and has told me privately that he doesn't believe in "much of anything."

I'm pretty sure this means that he is agnostic rather than Catholic... but for some reason I don't understand -- but legitimately want to! -- his identity as a Catholic is still extremely important to him.  He is proud of having taken every sacrament except marriage, and is disappointed that we won't be married in the church (in part because I REALLY don't want to, and in part because I think we'd be hard-pressed to find a Catholic priest willing marry an atheist and an agnostic-in-denial).

I think a large part of it is that his father is "strongly" Catholic (except during football season, which is a whole other drama...).  FI doesn't have a great relationship with his dad (FI is a nerd like me; FFIL is the quintessential jock) and is reluctant to disappoint him.  It's bad enough that he plays WoW instead of football.  If he came out as anything other than Catholic?  His dad would probably disown him.

Anyway, in spite of the fact that we believe the same thing -- i.e., nothing at all! -- we have the WORST fights about religion.  It's ridiculous.  If he were truly Catholic, then it I would make every effort to respect his beliefs and accommodate them in our life together.  But listening to him lobby for a church wedding, or to have any hypothetical future spawn baptized, WHEN HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN GOD HIMSELF frustrates me to no end.  Seriously.  No end.

We were arguing about it again last night, and over the course of the argument I told him that he is the only Christian I know who doesn't actually believe in God.  He explained that Catholism isn't just a religion: it's a culture as well, and it's the culture rather than the belief system with which he identifies.

Is this true?  Is it possible to call yourself a Catholic or Christian if you don't believe in the basic tenets of the religion?  I know that some religions are tied more closely to culture than others -- Judaism and LDS come to mind -- but Christianity encompasses such a wide spectrum of beliefs that I have a hard time equating it to culture. 

I can be pretty critical of organized religion, in general, but I desperately want to understand, and FI and I aren't getting anywhere on this one. 

baystateapple

No, I don't think that Catholicism is a culture.  It's pretty straightforward as far as religion goes, but I don't think you can call yourself a "cultural" Catholic.

I'm Catholic, and FI is agnostic.  He agreed to get married in the church because it's important to me, but had it not been, I don't think he would have wanted to.  I wish I could give you some advice as to why your FI wants to get married in the church when neither one of you is a believer.  The only thing that sort of sticks out to me is that your FI claims to be an agnostic, not an atheist, which (generally, if he's the same sort of agnostic that my FI is) means that he doesn't know if there's a God, not that he automatically doesn't believe there's a God.

My only suggestion, I think, might be counseling.  Maybe a mediator would help in this situation?  I'm not sure.

MarriedInAFever

I have a friend in a similar situation. He identifies himself as an agnostic with catholic guilt.

salt78

You are either Catholic or Agnostic. You can't be both. 

louisvillebride21

Hmm...I'm baptist, and I don't know if I could call myself a Christian if I didn't believe in God. I don't feel like there's much 'culture' surounding my religion. However, my guy best friend was raised Catholic but doesn't believe in anything. He still identifies as Catholic though.

andyandhillary

I see both points.  There is a lot of culture in Catholicism but you should not, IMO, identify yourself as a Catholic if you do not believe in at least the basic tenants of the church.  I can see how it's a part of him as far as family goes but I think a lot of people tie their Catholic roots to their heritage i.e., Italian-Catholic, Irish-Catholic, Polish-Catholic.  At least that's how it is with the people I know. 

louisvillebride21

I'm curious about the football season thing... not that it has anything to do with the matter at hand, just sounds interesting

tenofcups4me

You mentioned Jews, so I'll chime in as a Jew that doesn't believe any part of the religion (or any other). But I still identify as Jewish. I think DH understands better now than when we first got together, but he was really confused for a long time about how I could be a "non-practicing Jew." For me, it comes down to history and culture and group identity. I don't know how that plays out for a Catholic though.

laurenclaire1386

I'm sorry to nitpick, but the word y'all are looking for is tenets. Tenants live somewhere.

Celles

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_religion-culture?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:642a2267-aaff-47f6-a067-b61066041d14Post:6518da9b-f4ae-43a0-af74-fa042ead75bd">Re: Religion and culture.</a>:
[QUOTE]You are either Catholic or Agnostic. You can't be both. 
Posted by salt78[/QUOTE]

See, that's my take on it too!  I think he's crazy.  He thinks I hate religion (I don't!) and am therefore incapable of being accepting and supportive when it comes to his beliefs... whatever the hell they are.

Ugh.  I'm so frustrated. 

andyandhillary

To throw it out there, I'm glad you aren't having your ceremony in a church.  I completely agree with you on that point.  Marriage in the Catholic Church is a sacrament and therefore not only requires that you believe in the basic tenants but in many ceremonies, including mine, you promise to raise your children in the Church.  I assume you guys aren't interested in that.

I, as a Catholic, would never get married in a temple just because I thought it was pretty or "nice".  I wish non-religious people felt the same way about Christian churches.  Then again, someone may not seem religious to people but one's faith is very personal and we can't judge what their relationship is with God.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

I'm going to go back and read your whole post, but I just wanted to jump in and say that I DO think there's a Catholic culture, even if some Catholics don't realize it.

I was raised Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic high school in an area with a large Catholic population. So I know some ins and outs. FI was raised Catholic (his mother converted to Catholicism to marry his father - and she goes to mass every Sunday). FI was very religious earlier in life - even throughout grad school he was involved in his campus's Catholic organization, doing volunteer work through them. Since then, he's fallen off the wagon so to speak. We're not having a Catholic wedding (thankfully). But he still wants to raise our children Catholic (I'm against this).

From my experience, Catholics aren't really interested in other religions. They're either super Catholic, nominally Catholic or agnostic. I'm not sure I've ever met a Catholic who has decided to become a Methodist, for example. MAYBE Episcopalian, since it's similar. (That's something I might be okay with.)

baystateapple

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_religion-culture?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:642a2267-aaff-47f6-a067-b61066041d14Post:6fed3ea1-7567-46a2-82ac-c6f2c3ed1d64">Re: Religion and culture.</a>:
[QUOTE]However, my guy best friend was raised Catholic but doesn't believe in anything. He still identifies as Catholic though.
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]

The idea in Catholicism is that when you receive a sacrament, it is for life.  You have been baptized Catholic, so you ARE Catholic.  However, I've never heard of someone being an atheist and still saying they were Catholic.  I do have a lot of friends who will qualify it with "Well, I was baptized Catholic, but I don't really believe in anything now."   That makes sense to me.  It does not make sense to me to say "Yes, I'm a Catholic, but no, I don't believe in God."  One thing completely refutes the other.

andyandhillary

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_religion-culture?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:642a2267-aaff-47f6-a067-b61066041d14Post:55aa5342-4a8d-4dce-868e-387bdbd18f58">Re: Religion and culture.</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm sorry to nitpick, but the word y'all are looking for is tenets. Tenants live somewhere.
Posted by laurenclaire1386[/QUOTE]

That is nitpick worthy.  I apologize.  I'd edit it but I need to shame myself.  *sigh*

salt78

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_religion-culture?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:642a2267-aaff-47f6-a067-b61066041d14Post:6fed3ea1-7567-46a2-82ac-c6f2c3ed1d64">Re: Religion and culture.</a>:
[QUOTE]However, my guy best friend was raised Catholic but doesn't believe in anything. He still identifies as Catholic though.
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]

<div>I don't understand why someone would. I was raised Episcopalian, but now I am Agnostic and I don't identify as anything other than that. Either you believe it or you don't. </div>

baystateapple

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_religion-culture?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:642a2267-aaff-47f6-a067-b61066041d14Post:8a276e59-7ffa-4938-8e07-462be356c80f">Re: Religion and culture.</a>:
[QUOTE] From my experience, Catholics aren't really interested in other religions. They're either super Catholic, nominally Catholic or agnostic. I'm not sure I've ever met a Catholic who has decided to become a Methodist, for example. MAYBE Episcopalian, since it's similar. (That's something I might be okay with.)
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]

Eh...I spent a lot of time researching other religions when I was in graduate school and disillusioned with Catholicism.  I knew others who did, too.  But you're right, the only faith that I really could identify with was the Episcopalian Church.  They are very similar.

Celles

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_religion-culture?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:642a2267-aaff-47f6-a067-b61066041d14Post:f4e9c56a-c9d2-4391-a5f9-b3987ca82504">Re: Religion and culture.</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm curious about the football season thing... not that it has anything to do with the matter at hand, just sounds interesting
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]

Ever since Canada got NFL Sunday Ticket, FFIL has only been a practicing Catholic during the off-season.  It irritates FI so much to listen to his dad preach about the importance of attending mass -- and then not attend mass for seventeen weeks out of the year! -- that FI refuses to go to church with his family.  He used to go on Christmas and Easter; now he doesn't even do that.  It's caused a fair amount of drama on his side. 

ohwhynot

As a former Catholic, I beileve that there is definitely a cultural Catholicism.  However, that doesn't trump the actual qualification necessary to be a Catholic - to believe in the tenets of the Church.  Your fi is very, very confused if he thinks he can be a non-believing Catholic. 

I can't wrap my head around being proud to have taken sacraments that he doesn't believe in - what is special about, say, eating a wafer if he doesn't believe that wafer = the body of Christ?  What is special about partaking in confession to a god you don't believe in? 

My guess is that his agnosticism is a lot closer to theism than it is to atheism but he's not ready to admit that. 

baystateapple

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_religion-culture?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:642a2267-aaff-47f6-a067-b61066041d14Post:a20c8d22-0e43-48ec-ba3d-e99dc7af6d54">Re: Religion and culture.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Religion and culture. : Ever since Canada got NFL Sunday Ticket, FFIL has only been a practicing Catholic during the off-season.  It irritates FI so much to listen to his dad preach about the importance of attending mass -- and then not attend mass for seventeen weeks out of the year! -- that FI refuses to go to church with his family.  He used to go on Christmas and Easter; now he doesn't even do that.  It's caused a fair amount of drama on his side. 
Posted by Celles[/QUOTE]

<em>That</em> is crap.

My mother does that too occasionally.  If I miss church she calls me a heathen and is dramatic about it all day.  But then she'll miss church just because she "had a rough week" or "is tired".  It's complete bull.

angie74

I was raised Catholic, but have since converted to Judaism (not for marriage, but because it was important to me. just happened to find a nice Jewish guy.!)

I will say, having been raised by a *very* catholic mother, I didn't find much of a sense of community in the church. maybe it's because I was jaded, and didn't believe it, but I just didn't see it.

I do see a huge community feeling in being Jewish. again, it could be because I chose it and want to see it, but it's there.

you're making the right choice, I think. and I think your FI needs to do some soul searching.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

Celles, as an atheist, do YOU want to raise your children in any particular religion? Would you prefer not to? Or would you prefer a less strict and structured type of religious community if FI is insisting on one at all?

Personally, while I'm agnostic, I'd like to raise my kids in a UU church. FI thinks they're a little too "out there." It was weird, though, he said to me, "Well, I guess our choices for raising kids would be Catholic or Presbyterian." It's like... er, no, we can raise them whatever we want. But being a Catholic, he didn't really comprehend that people switch churches. I mean, you've been to one Calvinist protestant church (Presbyterian, Methodist, Weslyan), you've been to them all, and I definitely feel at "home" in any of those services. But to Catholics, Catholic is Catholic and nothing else is as good/the same. Which again, is why I think Catholics don't really explore other faiths - they just become agnostic.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

Mrs Jesse - my FI has a BA and PhD in mathematics and minored in biology (did his PhD dissertation on something about statistics and evolution), so I think he definitely has the same sort of conflict.

Celles

The comments are coming too fast for me to respond to them all individually, but I am truly grateful for everyone's insights.  Thank you!

tenofcups -- that's actually something I've held in the back of my mind through all of this.  I know several Jews who identify with Judaism as a culture and a shared heritage, but not so much as a belief system.  I also know a few Mormons who aren't 100% on board with the tenets, but are deeply involved in the community.  I think the lines are probably blurrier for some religions than others. 

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_religion-culture?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:642a2267-aaff-47f6-a067-b61066041d14Post:2dcc193a-6361-4ab8-bc26-632d65383ad4">Re: Religion and culture.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Religion and culture. : Eh...I spent a lot of time researching other religions when I was in graduate school and disillusioned with Catholicism.  I knew others who did, too.  But you're right, the only faith that I really could identify with was the Episcopalian Church.  They are very similar.
Posted by baystateapple[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think I was thinking about it in my head not like Catholics are totally ignorant of other religions, just that it might be harder to identify with other religions, even other Christian faiths.

danieliza1127

I think you're both wrong Celles.  I mean, I think it's wrong of you to push him so hard to define his beliefs for you and I think it's wrong of him to try to push his beliefs on you (the church wedding, baptised kids, etc). 

Can't you come to some compromise without fully understanding where he's coming from?  He says it's cultural, you know it's important in his family life, so there's your answer.  You don't need to understand more, it seems clear to me.  It's not right of you to tell him that he is wrong in his thinking on this.  Every person's spirituality is personal and their own.   Also, he needs to compromise and understand that it's not fair to expect you to bend to the church customs when you clearly don't believe in them. 

You don't have to agree on your beliefs, but if you feel that you DO have to agree, then you guys should probably get some counseling to work it out.

Celles

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_religion-culture?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:642a2267-aaff-47f6-a067-b61066041d14Post:c9d3de65-5a45-4ef2-a61b-7bb3787fd665">Re: Religion and culture.</a>:
[QUOTE]Celles, as an atheist, do YOU want to raise your children in any particular religion? Would you prefer not to? Or would you prefer a less strict and structured type of religious community if FI is insisting on one at all? Personally, while I'm agnostic, I'd like to raise my kids in a UU church. FI thinks they're a little too "out there." It was weird, though, he said to me, "Well, I guess our choices for raising kids would be Catholic or Presbyterian." It's like... er, no, we can raise them whatever we want. But being a Catholic, he didn't really comprehend that people switch churches. I mean, you've been to one Calvinist protestant church (Presbyterian, Methodist, Weslyan), you've been to them all, and I definitely feel at "home" in any of those services. But to Catholics, Catholic is Catholic and nothing else is as good/the same. Which again, is why I think Catholics don't really explore other faiths - they just become agnostic.
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]

That's a really interesting thought.  I think you're on to something there.

Personally, I would prefer not to raise my children with any particular religion.  When they're old enough to understand and come to their own conclusions, I'll support them whatever they choose -- but I definitely don't want to bias them towards anything.  If I had to choose a church, it would probably be UU as well.  Belief.net always pegs me as a UU for some reason.

strawberrycrz

I'm catholic, FI wasn't raised as any religion.  He believes that someone is up there, but not sure who.  He knew how much being married catholic meant to me, so he agreed to get married in a church.  He knows that means he's agreeing to raise our kids catholic and he's fine with that.  I am very happy that he agreed to do this for me, so in return I promised to never try to make him go to church.  He will be there for the kids when they have their sacraments, or something big is going on.  Maybe you two can make some sort of compromise as well? 

tenofcups4me

For some reason, I missed part of your post the first time I read it -- the part about wanting to raise his kids in the church. I actually know several Catholics that feel the same as your FH, including one who I was serious with and didn't marry (for just that reason) and one I actually DID marry (and divorced). I found out after we were married that he actually was a lot more tied to the Catholic church than he had ever represented in any of our conversations before marriage. I don't think he even knew how much of a Catholic he was till later.

FWIW, even though I said I don't practice anything as a Jew, I'd still want any child of mine to define her or himself as Jewish (even though DH is not) and would still want to celebrate Jewish holidays (even though I'd be happy to explain to any child that I don't really believe what we're celebrating). I would not want to send imaginery child to Hebrew school, but would be perfectly happy to send them to a daycare in a synagogue. Yes, I'm a mass of contraditions :-)

Celles

I'll admit that I'm not accepting as I should be, Dani, and there's a lot of wisdom in your words.  I've reread your post three times and am trying to take the advice -- and the chastisement! -- to heart.  We both need to change in order to move past this, and I am notoriously resistant to change... so, thank you.  I definitely needed to hear that.

FWIW, I don't feel that we have to agree, but I do want to understand.  His beliefs and behavior are so contradictory to me that I have a hard time respecting them.  I feel I need to reconcile them in some way in order to accept them -- and, therefore, him.  Last night, I was so frustrated that I lay in bed wondering how I can spend the rest of my life with someone I just don't get.  I love him, but sometimes I don't understand him at all. 

smokeybailey

When you say that he particiaptes in the sacraments, is he going to confession, taking the Eucharist, etc. on a regular basis or did he do a first communion and leave it at that?

jasmineh7777

I've only skimmed the posts but here is my take:
I'm Catholic, with a hefty amount of skepticism. Could I ever identify as an Atheist or Agnostic? No. Even if I logically think that there is nothing transcendental, I've absorbed way to much Catholicism in the womb to ever totally stop being Catholic. If your FI's family is really Catholic, it would be a huge change in identify to no longer consider himself a Catholic, whether or not his faith has waned.  

If we ever have kids, they will be raised Catholic although Fi is agnostic. We've agreed that the values of my religion are appropriate for raising children. If they choose not to practice as adults, then that is their choice.

Ang74- I think it is really interesting that you converted. I've often said that if I were ever to convert, it would be to Judaism because it is the only other religion I identify with, and often question whether Catholicism or Judaism actually "has it right."