kps, bps, nps.

kikibaby

BTW- that's just me playing devil's advocate, really.  I don't know what I'll do when I have a baby... whatever feels right I suppose.

katiewhompus

That's when you ask someone to come pitch in and help.

I think most of the exposure is just two extremes so it's hard to understand the middle. Personally I think if you are having a kid than you need to understand that for the first few months they are going to be needy and life isn't about you temporarily.  Imagine not being able to move, stuck on your back, in a cold and scary place. You can't feed yourself, or use the bathroom comfortably and there are strange noises. Of course you are going to want the security of having someone else nearby.

I think most of the people (again, based on my experiences) who have troubles with their babies being too needy are not recognizing this fact. I've had a lot of friends who just put the baby in their carrier and move them throughout the house while they do chores, make dinner, nap, etc and it worked out great. The baby gets to be close to them but they can still do what they need to do. If the baby wakes up and is scared they can see mom is right there and calm down quickly.  The ones who put the baby in the nursery and then go away from it are the ones generally complaining that the child won't leave them alone.

Simply Fated

There is a difference between letting a baby CIO when it truly needs something and letting it CIO when it just wants attention. If the baby is really sick and needs something, as a pp said was the case with her baby, then letting the baby CIO is just wrong. But it's when the baby is just crying for attention, then being rewarded with attention that I take issue with.

katiewhompus

But (going to extremes again I know) if you refuse to give it any attention then how do you know? If the baby is crying in the other room and you just let it cry, how do you know if it isn't hungry/hurt/scared/diaper change?

Kiki that's my stance too. I think I'll know what I'll do, and a lot of the AP methods make sense to me, but really it's whatever works.

Simply Fated

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_kps-bps-nps?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:74f85fc0-8ee1-4a2d-a7d5-7749bd0cafa9Post:1b4b5d7e-a891-4271-abfb-e5d30bdcb1cf">Re: kps, bps, nps.</a>:
[QUOTE]But (going to extremes again I know) if you refuse to give it any attention then how do you know? If the baby is crying in the other room and you just let it cry, how do you know if it isn't hungry/hurt/scared/diaper change? Kiki that's my stance too. I think I'll know what I'll do, and a lot of the AP methods make sense to me, but really it's whatever works.
Posted by katiewhompus[/QUOTE]
I know you're playing devil's advocate, but these questions are irrelevant. It's fine to check on it, but it's the picking it up and holding it until it falls asleep every single time it cries <em>when all it wants is attention</em> that is the problem.

katiewhompus

I don't think they are irrelevant at all. If you (the collective you) are saying that you are rewarding crying by giving the child attention than wouldn't the attention it got through investigation for the crying be a reward as well? It's not like you can peek in the room and there's a big sign saying "I'm hungry/I pooped/I'm sick". I could see if the kid wanted to be held for hours that it could be an issue, especially if you have taken it to the doctor to make sure there wasn't something medically wrong to cause the crying, but I don't think going to investigate crying is going to turn a kid into a self absorbed brat.

Simply Fated

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_kps-bps-nps?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:74f85fc0-8ee1-4a2d-a7d5-7749bd0cafa9Post:b4a91dfa-cb83-4d03-a6c6-3cff6759eb63">Re: kps, bps, nps.</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't think they are irrelevant at all. If you (the collective you) are saying that you are rewarding crying by giving the child attention than wouldn't the attention it got through investigation for the crying be a reward as well? It's not like you can peek in the room and there's a big sign saying "I'm hungry/I pooped/I'm sick". I could see if the kid wanted to be held for hours that it could be an issue, especially if you have taken it to the doctor to make sure there wasn't something medically wrong to cause the crying, but I don't think going to investigate crying is going to turn a kid into a self absorbed brat.
Posted by katiewhompus[/QUOTE]
I didnt say anything about going to investigate crying. You go in, check the diaper (you don't even need to pick it for that), and check to see if it's foot is caught or something. Looks good? Ok, leave.
But you have to ask yourself the logical questions like, when was the last time the diaper was changed and when was the last time it fed, etc. After awhile, it's like you're hoping for reasons to go in there.

Mrs.B6302007

Interesting discussion.
  AP has 8 basic principles
 http://www.attachmentparenting.org/principles/intro.php

The following is my opinion and is based oon my experiences with AP friends and my own child.

To me, the "out there" stigma AP has earned i's not so much the principles behind AP as it is the intensity of SOME parents and the extreme lengths SOME will go to. 

For us, we follow some of the "standard" AP practices: breastfeeding, some co-sleeping, baby wearing, not letting her CIO.

As far as CIO goes, Julia doesn't cry much at all.  She cries when she needs something and we've become so much better at deciphering her language (crying) in the last few weeks that we can now anticipate many of her needs before she even realizes what she needs.  Not only is is not necessary for us to let her CIO since we know what she needs, it's heartbreaking to listen to it.

aggiebug

If parenting had one right answer we would have one handbook we could give every expectant monther and all raise perfect (and identical) children.

That is the problem with all these parenting methods, they work for some children perfectly and others miserably.  They often times leave little wiggle room in their methods to adapt to different children.  Some parts of CIO methodolgy is good some parts of AP are good but neither are close to perfect.

You have to read your children not a book to know what to do!

debjwes

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_kps-bps-nps?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:74f85fc0-8ee1-4a2d-a7d5-7749bd0cafa9Post:a2fd2391-e48a-432c-b72e-48368abe48f6">Re: kps, bps, nps.</a>:
[QUOTE]It seems to me that if you constantly run to the baby every time it cries, you are rewarding it.  So that they realize that if they just want someone to come to them, all they have to do is cry.  If you're of the belief that a baby needs to be held every time it wants to, I guess that wouldn't matter to you.  I know people who have answered the baby's cry for attention, and they end up never being able to put the baby down.  The baby won't sleep through the night, take naps without being in someone's arms... that's not healthy for the parents.  You need to be able to put baby down to sleep and have your own life. 
Posted by kikibaby[/QUOTE]

<div>Babies don't have that mentality to play those kind of games. Newborns cry because they <strong>need</strong> to be close to you! They need to be  held, you can not spoil a newborn. Now when they become toddlers and start walking around and  throwing tantrums you need  to step a way some  what.  It depends on the  age.</div>

katiewhompus

I guess I just think the CIO method and similar parenting methods are very hands off approach to child care. It's like saying "I'll pay attention to my kid when I want to, and when I don't I'll just ignore it's cries for attention. What's wrong with a baby wanting attention? We all want attention sometimes. If I was ignored every time I wanted attention or was scared/nervous I'd be a nervous wreck. Yes kids need to learn to have alone time but I don't think that newborn is the right time for that lesson.
 When I have a kid I'm going to want to spend time with it. If it cries I'm going to want to make it better and give it attention. The CIO method just makes it sound like the baby is an inconvenience, and why have kids if that is going to be your attitude? If you want to still have your independant lifestyle where you can do whatever you want, whenever you want then don't have kids.

I'm also curious if the people who are against AP have read the practices, or are just going by what they have heard on TB.

Simply Fated

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_kps-bps-nps?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:74f85fc0-8ee1-4a2d-a7d5-7749bd0cafa9Post:406a543a-2c8c-4845-a0ff-4509948de584">Re: kps, bps, nps.</a>:
[QUOTE]I guess I just think the CIO method and similar parenting methods are very hands off approach to child care. It's like saying "I'll pay attention to my kid when I want to, and when I don't I'll just ignore it's cries for attention. What's wrong with a baby wanting attention? We all want attention sometimes. If I was ignored every time I wanted attention or was scared/nervous I'd be a nervous wreck. Yes kids need to learn to have alone time but I don't think that newborn is the right time for that lesson.  When I have a kid I'm going to want to spend time with it. If it cries I'm going to want to make it better and give it attention. The CIO method just makes it sound like the baby is an inconvenience, and why have kids if that is going to be your attitude? If you want to still have your independant lifestyle where you can do whatever you want, whenever you want then don't have kids. I'm also curious if the people who are against AP have read the practices, or are just going by what they have heard on TB.
Posted by katiewhompus[/QUOTE]
The CIO method has nothing to do with laziness and apathy, which you are clearly implying. Parents don't let their kids.... wait, I'll stop myself there and rephrase. GOOD parents don't let their kids CIO just because they dont' want to be bothered. On the contrary, it is a painful and upsetting process to let your child CIO. In fact, parents who practice CIO have said that the parents who are against CIO are weak willed and are only benefitting themselves.
Both sides (CIO and Anti-CIO) both have good points.
What you are doing is clumping the extreme CIO parents with the regular CIO parents and that's about as awesome as clumping the extreme AP parents with the regular AP parents.

In Response to Re: kps, bps, nps.:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: kps, bps, nps. : Babies don't have that mentality to play those kind of games. Newborns cry because they need to be close to you! They need to be  held, you can not spoil a newborn. Now when they become toddlers and start walking around and  throwing tantrums you need  to step a way some  what.  It depends on the  age.
Posted by debjwes[/QUOTE]
They don't need it, they want it. I think you are confusing the meanings of those two words. Wanting to be held and needing to be held are two very different things.

AmoroAgain

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_kps-bps-nps?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:74f85fc0-8ee1-4a2d-a7d5-7749bd0cafa9Post:96d38f93-6fff-479e-8480-263dbec491ae">Re: kps, bps, nps.</a>:
[QUOTE]In my experience, CIO didn't work very well.  Every time our baby got sick, it had to go out the window, because there's no way in hell I'd let my sick baby CIO.  So then we'd have to go through the whole ordeal again after he got better, and it sucked. With our 2d baby, we didn't do CIO and we attached a co-sleeper to our bed.  Worked much better.  To this day, our 2d child is a better sleeper than our first. This is only my experience - anecdotal evidence.  This is what worked for ME and MY children.  Other people experienced much, much better results with CIO.  I don't believe the hype from either side - every baby is different and every parent's experience is  going to be different. It kind of pisses me off, Amoro, that you are dead set against something with which you have absolutely no experience.  
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]
Wait wait wait... so you think if the baby were sick or truly in need of something, I would say, "Let them cry it out?"  did you lose your mind?  Of course that wasn't what I was saying.  There is a lot of behavior that gets rewarded that shouldn't, and for a kid... crying just to cry is one of them. 

But I forgot, I'm not a parent so my opinion is invalid.

debjwes

no i believe newborns need to be held. Their eye sight is not fully in gear.  The need to be held, not all the time, but they need the security and the warmth. Their bodies don't regulate temperature very well. Being close to their parents and hearing their voices  and feeling  them helps build the neuron connections in the brain. So i'd say they do need to be held.

georgia_bride09

Simply Fated, I don't think newborns WANT anything. They're just not developed enough for that. I think you're trying to argue a point about ALL babies, when katie and deb are clearly trying to delineate between newborns, and older babies who do know the difference between need and want.

kikibaby

Georgia, I think that Simply Fated is arguing the point for rewarding behavior.  It's not that the baby is thinking "Hey, if I cry, I'll get attention" at that moment, but it's the possibility of it sticking- the simple association of cry = attention.  The baby doesn't need to be thinking logically to make this association.  It's a Pavlovian reaction of sorts- dogs do this, and nobody would say they're malicious or "playing games".

georgia_bride09

See, in a two year old, I would totally understand that argument, but in a two month old, I just don't see it.

georgia_bride09

Let me add that I'm not an expert in early child development by any means, so that is just my opinion. I don't feel like that develops until at least six months or later.

kikibaby

I think most of us are just going on opinions here, anyway.  I don't have kids, and I haven't been around a baby in a looooong time.  It's an interesting discussion, though. 

boogerbearoriginal

You cannot spoil an infant with attention. By saying a baby is merely crying to get what it wants is applying adult reasoning to an infant. The simple fact is, infants don't have wants - all the things they 'want' are things they need to properly develop. They cry because they are unable to care for themselves and it is their only way to communicate their needs.

Here's an article about a 1998 Harvard study that sums up my opinion quite nicely:
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/04.09/ChildrenNeedTou.html