Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?

bondingofsouls

My husband and I consider ourselves married; however, we have not had a ceremony yet and do not have a marriage certificate. We have "only" professed our love and commitment before God and asked for our souls to become one for all of eternity.

We are planning on having a wedding within the next few months.. but I am not sure what wording would be appropriate. We are signing a Ketubah but not a marriage certificate. I do not care about tax breaks so I do not see why I would care to be considered married by the US government. Should I let my guests know that?

Also, how much notice is needed? It would be very informal. A ceremony, maybe a cake and punch reception.. no more than $200.

We are not asking for gifts, only the presence of whoever wants to be there.

aMrsin09

You may not care about tax breaks, but I bet you will care about SS benefits and estate planning.

Without that certificate, you are NOT his next of kin.  I don't care what you professed to God.  If it comes down to it, his niece twice removed could be the one to end up dictating his health care and estate distribution.

Just pay the $50 get married and have a ceremony and the small reception you want.

And if you continue with your plan, yes I would let your guests know that you are just hosting a party and not an actual wedding.

vsgal

If you do not get a marriage license, there will be reprocussions that you will have to deal with.  If you are OK with the following:

1.  If either one of you are in a severe accident, the other may not be able to visit or allow life-saving medical procedures to be done because you are not each other's next of kin.

2.  If one of you dies, the other could be left with nothing because the other is not next of kin.  The estate will either go to the state or to anotherfamily member. 

3.  If one of you dies, the other will not receive the life benefits or social security benefits that are payable.  They will go to someone else or get absorbed back into the system.

Having a state license only helps you in the long run.  It's not like having a marriage license gives the government a direct line into your house.

You can have a small ceremony and reception and sign the Ketubah.  You also need to cough up the $50 and get a marriage license.  It will be easier and more beneficial in the end.

mica178

I guess what you're doing is a "Commitment Ceremony."  It's not a vow renewal if you're not married and repeating marriage vows.  And it's not a legal marriage.

Ditto what the PPs said about legal marriage.  There's a reason why gay people in this country are fighting for the right to marry, and it's not just the tax stuff. 

For what it's worth, if you decide not to get the state document, please each of you complete an Advanced Directive so that you can name each other as durable power of attorney for healthcare in the event that either of you gets sick so that your "husband" can be your back-up decision maker.

2dBride

Among the many legal benefits of marriage are the following:

	joint parenting;
	joint adoption;
	joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents);
	status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent;
	joint insurance policies for home, auto and health;
	dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support;
	immigration and residency for partners from other countries;
	inheritance automatically in the absence of a will;
	joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment;
	inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate);
	benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare;
	spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home;
	veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns;
	joint filing of customs claims when traveling;
	wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children;
	bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child;
	decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her;
	crime victims' recovery benefits;
	loss of consortium tort benefits;
	domestic violence protection orders;
	judicial protections and evidentiary immunity.

As one who struggled for nine years to get the right to marry my partner, I find it difficult to understand why anyone who wanted to be with a partner for life would forego all the legal protections of marriage.

bondingofsouls

We do not wish to be legally married because, frankly, neither of us wish to be a part of "the system," for lack of a better word.

I understand that taxes are not the only benefits... I should have said that I do not care about the monetary gains as a more general response. The ability to legally share property, get social security etc. means nothing to me.

Medical reasons are understandable. However, this is not a concern of mine.

To each his own. I just find the idea of a legal document telling me that I am married to be corrupt. Many who are truly married are not legally, and many who are legally married are not truly.

The only one who can make this decision is the Father... government has no place in such matters.

aMrsin09

well then yes you are having a Commitment Ceremony and not a wedding or a vow renewal, so go ahead and word it however you want.

I would still let your guests know that none of this is legal union.  That may affect their decision to take the time out to attend or not.

bridezillatobe2009

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:7c17b70e-fac7-47f2-b2c6-b9d08b51a5e6">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]well then yes you are having a Commitment Ceremony and not a wedding or a vow renewal, so go ahead and word it however you want. <strong>I would still let your guests know that none of this is legal union.  That may affect their decision to take the time out to attend or not.</strong>
Posted by aMrsin09[/QUOTE]

I don't understand why this would influence if people would attend or not. Please understand that I don't mean that to be snarky, I just mean that if friends of ours were in this situation and they were making the commitment and were celebrating that commitment I wouldn't think of it any differently than I would a regualr wedding.

aMrsin09

Same reason people have for not attending a "do over" ceremony after a couple JoP'd.  People usually attend events to see the legal union of a couple.

If the couple in question could not legally be married, well OK then attend and party away.  In this case it just seems to me the OP has already not legally "committed themselves" and this would be just as AWish as a 2nd ceremony.  Except in this case it would be "hey look at us, we aren't married and never intend to be, so take time out of your life and come celebrate our stand against the man"

quotequeen

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:7a63e414-642e-4c04-ad80-5a8d7b7ddd15">Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]My husband and I consider ourselves married; however, we have not had a ceremony yet and do not have a marriage certificate. We have "only" professed our love and commitment before God and asked for our souls to become one for all of eternity. We are planning on having a wedding within the next few months.. but I am not sure what wording would be appropriate. We are signing a Ketubah but not a marriage certificate. I do not care about tax breaks so I do not see why I would care to be considered married by the US government. Should I let my guests know that? Also, how much notice is needed? It would be very informal. A ceremony, maybe a cake and punch reception.. no more than $200. We are not asking for gifts, only the presence of whoever wants to be there.
Posted by bondingofsouls[/QUOTE]

I don't understand why you're doing anything if you've already "professed your love and commitment..." and all that.  You just want to do it again with more people present?

tenofcups4me

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:e114742c-deb0-477f-b82b-e057bff90205">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing? : I don't understand why you're doing anything if you've already "professed your love and commitment..." and all that.  You just want to do it again with more people present?
Posted by quotequeen[/QUOTE]

I'm also confused. It appears that you're having a commitment ceremony. But you've already had a commitment ceremony. Why are you having another one?

arv266

You can use the wording "exchange of vows" which is appropriate and honest, as opposed to "exchange of marriage vows", which gives the appearance of a legal wedding. 

banana468

FWIW, DH and I are Catholic but the Church still took the legal marriage quite seriously.  WIthout the marriage license we wouldn't have been married in the eyes of God either.

baystateapple

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:2f4c6e5e-602b-4984-bc0f-50b21f486783">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>Medical reasons are understandable. However, this is not a concern of mine. To each his own. I just find the idea of a legal document telling me that I am married to be corrupt.</strong> Many who are truly married are not legally, and many who are legally married are not truly. The only one who can make this decision is the Father... government has no place in such matters.
Posted by bondingofsouls[/QUOTE]

I think it would become a concern of yours really quickly if one of you becomes terminally ill or handicapped, God forbid.  Hospital employees and medical personnel don't care what you've sworn before God.  They only care about your legal rights in the matter...and if you're not legally married, than you have none. 

I am not trying to be a jerk, or snarky, or frighten you.  But please, think all of these things over before you make these decisions.

squirrly

Do not deceive your guests.  Your invitations should be to a commitment ceremony, not a marriage or wedding.  My expectation as a guest is that if this relationship falls through after the fact, it requires a couple of lawyers and a judge to dissolve - not just moving boxes. 

rbtrumpet

Ditto PPs in so many ways!  You my regret your decision, especially if either of you ever end up in a hospital, or if you ever buy a house, or anything big.

n Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:9861a3ee-43be-439a-9e06-8fc1f1700e79">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing? : I'm also confused. It appears that you're having a commitment ceremony. But you've already had a commitment ceremony. Why are you having another one?
Posted by tenofcups4me[/QUOTE]
 - I don't understand either

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:999c53f6-2075-4e3d-b2d6-586391630767">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]FWIW, DH and I are Catholic but the Church still took the legal marriage quite seriously.  WIthout the marriage license we wouldn't have been married in the eyes of God either.
Posted by banana468[/QUOTE]I
 - ditto, except I'm protestant

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:2f4c6e5e-602b-4984-bc0f-50b21f486783">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]We do not wish to be legally married because, frankly, neither of us wish to be a part of "the system," for lack of a better word. I understand that taxes are not the only benefits... I should have said that I do not care about the monetary gains as a more general response. The ability to legally share property, get social security etc. means nothing to me. Medical reasons are understandable. However, this is not a concern of mine. To each his own<strong>. I just find the idea of a legal document telling me that I am married to be corrupt. Many who are truly married are not legally, and many who are legally married are not truly. The only one who can make this decision is the Father... government has no place in such matters.
</strong>Posted by bondingofsouls[/QUOTE]
read Romans 13 - God put the government in authority (assuming when you say "God" you are referring to the God of the Bible - if you have another definition of "God" then everything I said is probably irrelevant) - therefore God is the one who established the covenant of marriage both spiritually (which you have already committed) and legally (which you say is corrupt).
/soapbox

And finally:
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:60255579-e4da-400d-adcc-38cdfc1f5238">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]Do not deceive your guests.  Your invitations should be to a commitment ceremony, not a marriage or wedding.  My expectation as a guest is that if this relationship falls through after the fact, it requires a couple of lawyers and a judge to dissolve - not just moving boxes. 
Posted by squirrly[/QUOTE]
ditto again!

arbolita

I am very eager to know what else you do to refrain from being a part of "the system."

ohwhynot

There are ways to accomplish many of the things people are talking about - gay couples do it all the time.  Get powers of attorney for health care & finances, acquire joint ownership of property, make out wills, etc.  There's a long list, and it can be expensive, but marriage is not the ONLY way to accomplish these things.

However, it seems to be that by doing things you are still becoming part of "the system" in that you are abiding by government-set rules in order to acquire rights and responsibilities that are conferred automatically with a legal marriage. 

In any event, I'd go with "commitment ceremony" rather than "wedding" on any and all invitations.  I also question why you're having another commitment ceremony when you said you already had one. 

sep72fendr

You become part of the system the day you pop outta yo' momma. Once you get your SS number, you are in there until you are dead or become an ex-pat and move somewhere else and become a citizen there.

I think you have some serious issues you need to process through before you decide to do this "commitment vow renewal" thing.

Imagine your SO was in a car crash and on life support. Not able to be in the room while his mother/father/brother pull the plug because you aren't considered family?

Your decision to not be legally married is ignorant.

Sloane99

You may prefer that the government may have no place in these matters, but it sure will when you want to visit each other in the hospital or try and resolve legal matters. Plus, depending on where you live, if you live together you are probably already part of the "system" in a common-law marriage.

None of these things are a concern of mine today either, and I hope that they never are for anyone on this board. If they ever do come up though, the last thing I want to be doing is fighting a legal system if I'm ever faced with any of these situations.  If you chose not to make your marriage legal, at least consider getting the correct documentation in place - again, being part of the "system".

Also, add me to the list of confused on two commitment ceremonies.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:b7ced1e4-c3ef-4aee-aa56-db5c8d81d0d8">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing? : What "system" are you talking about? You live in America. You're part of the "system" in one way or another, whether it's marriage or not.
Posted by Champagne Supernova[/QUOTE]

Did you know the government also has your social security number? OMG!

Listen OP, you're on a message board where almost everyone is legally married or planning legal (and sometimes religious as well) marriage. So clearly, our views are slanted in the "pro-marriage" direction.

I concede that some people might not be into marriage or whatever, but if not, then it seems AWish to have a commitment ceremony with guests. Those were pretty much invented for people who WANTED TO but COULD NOT be legally or religious married for a variety of reasons.

emilyinchile

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:a35d8c98-b41f-4911-81cf-5db33840fc96">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]You become part of the system the day you pop outta yo' momma. Once you get your SS number, you are in there until you are dead or become an ex-pat and move somewhere else and become a citizen there.
Posted by sep72fendr[/QUOTE]

Nope, you're still part of the system - lots of countries don't require you give up your US citizenship in order to become a citizen, and the US usually just doesn't recognize that you've adopted dual citizenship. Plus I'm pretty sure even if you go through the steps to legally give up your US citizenship, they still keep the information they had on you, so basically OP is screwed no matter what :)

Calypso1977

you really dont need to be legally married in order to have hospital rights or own property together.  wills, powers of attorney, and health care proxies do the trick, but they cost a lot more money than a marriage license.   social security benefits you do lose if you arent married, but anyone under age 40 probably isnt going to see much social security money anyway.

i find OP's situation strange, but really, its her business if she'd rather fill out a bazillion forms to protect herself than just be legally married.  but even when you are legally married, it doesnt always guarantee certain things, but it certainily can help.

bondingofsouls

We have not had a ceremony. By "confessed our union before God" I mean that we did so privately and consumated. After doing this I could see how it was rude to do so, and though we have done all that we believe is needed Biblically... for the sake of our families, and missionary work I feel that having a Ketubah as "proof" would be benefitial. I am a believer that when one makes a commitment of the flesh it is binding and two become one. This has nothing to do with a ceremony, which is still on my heart that I should do.

bondingofsouls

Yes give to Cesear what is Cesear's, and also what is given to you freely also give freely and, honestly, any of Y'shua's teachings. He tells anyone who wishes to follow him to sell everything they have and live for the will of our Father, and he will care for us. I believe this whole heartedly. I do not concern myself with health matters, we will remain healthy as long as we are doing the will of Yeho.

To many I am considered radical.

Yes I know that I have a social security number; however, I do not have it or use it for anything.

Like I said previously, to each their own. I am not looking down on anyone who has different ideas. This is what has been put on my heart and I must follow what is right for me.

Thank you so much for the advice. I am sure that anyone who knows us will know that it is not a legal union. I was just curious.

May the mashiaho bless you on your journeys.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

It's fine to do the ceremony, then, but sign the marriage license. A marriage is a public declaration of love and commitment. The license really is a part of that.

Calypso1977

Yes I know that I have a social security number; however, I do not have it or use it for anything.

i assume you are unemployed?  and have never filed tax returns?

aimers1525

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:b7ced1e4-c3ef-4aee-aa56-db5c8d81d0d8">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing? : <strong>What "system" are you talking about? You live in America. You're part of the "system" in one way or another, whether it's marriage or not.</strong>
Posted by Champagne Supernova[/QUOTE]
um yes, this....do you have a driver's license? system.  Do you have a cell phone/landline/other utilies? They you pay taxes. system. Do you vote? system.

Shasha3100

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:e712632b-56b5-4e94-bc50-670d22b6eca2">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]We have not had a ceremony. By "confessed our union before God" I mean that we did so privately and consumated. After doing this I could see how it was rude to do so, and though we have done all that we believe is needed Biblically... <strong>for the sake of our families, and missionary work I feel that having a Ketubah as "proof" </strong>would be benefitial. I am a believer that when one makes a commitment of the flesh it is binding and two become one. This has nothing to do with a ceremony, which is still on my heart that I should do.
Posted by bondingofsouls[/QUOTE]


Ok, I'm confused and curious. You want a Ketubah, which is a Jewish wedding contract. Ok,  but you say you want it for your missionary work. This is where I'm confused, Jews don't do missionary work. So, are you Jewish? Oh wait, are you a Messianic Jew? I don't know if they do missionary work. I'm just really curious, I know this has nothing to do with your question. 

NuggetBrain

Did you have any kind of ceremony in the church or temple or anything?  Because I would think that would be a big part of your religion and all, being joined by a minister of the faith.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_vow-renewal-wedding-timing?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:80cb6824-64c3-46f1-93c4-79cb2221bd95Post:ee98d7c2-4795-40a7-b74b-9f3bcb512218">Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Vow renewal or Wedding? Timing? : um yes, this....do you have a driver's license? system.  Do you have a cell phone/landline/other utilies? They you pay taxes. system. Do you vote? system.
Posted by aimers1525[/QUOTE]

Driving on roads. System. Police and fire department. System. Subsidized utilities. System.