Programs and Parents.

allychase

Well damn. I have a bio dad (not involved) and 2 stepdads (divorced, mom married again). I guess if I don't consider my real dad a parent, I have none? Even though the other 2 have been more of a father? Hmm.

This also leads me to wondering how the hell I will word my programs now. 

strlzfan11

Ally, a friend from college had a similar situation.

Parents of the bride
Mom & SF
Dad & SM2
SM 1

lauralaur

OP my recommendation is to skip the programs, honestly. I'm not sure that anyone even read ours, and we had quite a few left over afterwards.

NYU I'm with willywally on this one. I think your statement about step-parents never being parents is bothersome. Both of my step-parents have a good lot of time and emotion invested in me, and to call them anything but parents would be disrespectful to them. Both my father and my mother know their roles in my life as my parents, but that doesn't mean I haven't been parented by my step-mother and step-father as well.

willywally5

OK, now you've really pissed me off. I am not 'kidding myself' that I am a mother. I am a mother to all three children who I have had a huge part in raising. I have been more of a mom to her than her bio mom ever has and likely ever will be. Her dad and I have worked our butts off to ensure she turned out to be the smart, caring woman she is and you and your insulting semantics crap will not diminish that. Very sorry your happy home was broken by infidelity. Many are not. Treat your SM and your father with as much disdain and disrespect as you like, but don't kid yourself that doing so is OK from an etiquette standpoint, because it's not.

crash2729

Why is it so important to distinguish who is a step parent and who is a bio parent?

I guess I don't understand why you can't just list them as a you would any social unit?

crash2729

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:b98d0869-0250-4a99-8bd9-0b9ccd0284ec">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]Wally, please cite any source that says etiquette says that program must identify parents as including steps, or any book that says stepparents MUST be included on announcement or invite, in all situations.   Yet you say that I am violating etiquette if say steps do not have to be treated as parents. You seem to have feelings only for stepparents.  If, god forbid, a parent's feeling are hurt, for having the parent label put on someone else, your answer seems to be they should get over it.  Why should they always get over.  <strong>Crash, the issue is if the section is labeled Parents,</strong> I think all people under that heading should be, yes parents.  I suggested one compromise.  Maybe another is to label the section Family. To those who say a step is the same as a parent, I would say no.  Stepparents have no legal obligations to children, nor legal rights.   If stepparent/bioparent get divorced, and yes, that does happen, then step will have no legal right to even see the child, nor any obligation to support. 
Posted by NYUgirl100[/QUOTE]
But it's not labeled "biological parents" and yes, a step-parent is a different kind of parent. <div>
</div><div>I see nothing wrong with listing a step-mother as Mr& Mrs. Fi's Father...because she is Mrs.FI's father. </div>

strlzfan11

At this point, you're just being obtuse, NYU.

My step-grandmother didn't have any part in raising my dad or his brothers and sister, but she is still their step-mother.  She was listed in the parents section at my aunt's wedding (less than a year after she married my grandfather) and in the grandparents section at each of the granchildren's weddings.  I don't remember if she got seated at my aunt's wedding prior to the processional, but she still received a corsage.  FWIW nobody in the family really had any kind of relationship with her at the time, but that relationship was built over time.  She's not the woman who gave birth to my dad or sat on the porch swing with us kids for hours, but she is the woman who has treated each of us like her own children and grandchildren in the almost 19 years we've known her.

crash2729

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:a80187cf-8491-4ef9-bfe0-17dbabe1821b">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>At this point, you're just being obtuse, NYU</strong>. My step-grandmother didn't have any part in raising my dad or his brothers and sister, but she is still their step-mother.  She was listed in the parents section at my aunt's wedding (less than a year after she married my grandfather) and in the grandparents section at each of the granchildren's weddings.  I don't remember if she got seated at my aunt's wedding prior to the processional, but she still received a corsage.  FWIW nobody in the family really had any kind of relationship with her at the time, but that relationship was built over time.  She's not the woman who gave birth to my dad or sat on the porch swing with us kids for hours, but she is the woman who has treated each of us like her own children and grandchildren in the almost 19 years we've known her.
Posted by strlzfan11[/QUOTE]
This. <div>
</div>

allychase

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:8c4f9787-90b0-4dbf-b655-ee22a66430cc">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]Ally, a friend from college had a similar situation. Parents of the bride Mom & SF Dad & SM2 SM 1
Posted by strlzfan11[/QUOTE]
<div>
</div><div>Thanks a lot :)</div>

willywally5

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:b98d0869-0250-4a99-8bd9-0b9ccd0284ec">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]Wally, please cite any source that says etiquette says that program must identify parents as including steps, or any book that says stepparents MUST be included on announcement or invite, in all situations.   Yet you say that I am violating etiquette if say steps do not have to be treated as parents. You seem to have feelings only for stepparents.  If, god forbid, a parent's feeling are hurt, for having the parent label put on someone else, your answer seems to be they should get over it.  Why should they always get over.  Crash, the issue is if the section is labeled Parents, I think all people under that heading should be, yes parents.  I suggested one compromise.  Maybe another is to label the section Family. To those who say a step is the same as a parent, I would say no.  Stepparents have no legal obligations to children, nor legal rights.   If stepparent/bioparent get divorced, and yes, that does happen, then step will have no legal right to even see the child, nor any obligation to support. 
Posted by NYUgirl100[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Wow, not only are you totally obtuse, you are a demanding little thing, too.  You don't find it necessary to answer my earlier question to you, but then go apeshi!iit asking me a question. </div><div>
</div><div>Sorry to not get right on your research assignment. I was at my son's middle school orientation night. Which, I guess, since he is my biological son, was PARENTING. I took him to his locker and helped himfigure out how to open it, walked thru hisschedule with him, paid for his lunch ticket and other fees, helped him organize his locker and assuaged his fears about this big change in his life as well as discussed what a great opportunity it was for new adventures. Just like I did with my step daughter 13 years ago. </div><div><div>
</div><div>Regarding hurting a bio parent's feelings, It's called being an adult, growing the eff up and deaing with it. Just like step parents deal with it every time they have to suck it up and be around the bio parent, whether they like it or not. Bio parents can (and should, IMO) do the same. </div><div>
</div><div>Who I really feel for are the kids when their parents act like children and bicker about who gets their name where, etc. Unless their kids are jerks who refuse to acknowledge reality.</div><div>
</div><div>And you are incorrect about step parents as far as legal matters/obligations. My step daughter was able to be on my insurance as my child, for instance. I could sign any necessary papers for school, medical treatment, etc. Nearly half of the states in the US grant step parents visitation rights if the step and bio parent divorce. </div><div>
</div><div>What you seem to be completely missing here is that, in the real world, the term 'parents' can mean anyone who raises a child. If a kid is lucky enough to have their everyday parents be their orginal sperm and egg providers, dandy. But not every kid is that blessed. Some end up being raised by step parents, grandparents, aunts/uncles or even older siblings. There are posts on here frequently where brides/grooms want to honor non-biological people who raised them (trying to avoid your semantic claptrap here) as 'Parents.' </div><div>
</div><div>You can only see step parents one way, when there are many types of them. Just as there are many types of parents. Biology isn't all that makes a parent. </div><div>
</div><div>I have actually searched online a bit and don't find anything documented (in Emily Post for example) about this exact issue. However, I base my stance on what I've learned here about 1) not seperating social units; 2) respecting people's marriages and 3) not being a total asshhole to people who have been a significant part of your or your bio parents' lives.
<div>
</div></div></div>

crash2729

Preach Wally!

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:3c8b50d7-98a5-4ba2-839c-bff26a4e80f5">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]I am certain there is a wide range of how stepparents are identified.   I don't think my suggestion was wrong, in terms of etiqutte, and am still waiting for<strong> anyone to show me authority on this.  </strong>
Posted by NYUgirl100[/QUOTE]

Authority that some step-parents are more of a parent to a child than the actual bio parent?  It happens a lot.  Just because you aren't close to your stepmother, it doesn't give you the right to blanketly say that no step-parents are worthy of the title/honor of parents in a wedding/wedding program.

chelseamb11

Or what Wally said, because she's pretty awesome.

HockeyFan4

My SIL has a child from a previous relationship.  She started dating my brother when her daughter was about 1.5 ...and married him when her daughter was about 3...she is my niece...not my step niece.  I am auntie and have been for the 8 years i have known her.  When my brother adopted her a couple years ago, she didn't become more of a niece.

oh by the way, she has never met her bio dad, and the bio dad willingly gave up his rights so my brother could adopt her.  But I guess the bio dad is a parent, and my brother isn't, right?

amyelise25

I am very glad that FI and I are going against etiquette on this issue by not including his mother's husband (we both refuse to call that evil man a step parent) on the invitation next to her name. FI was about 40 when he came around. Luckily he won't be attending the wedding so we don't have to worry about his name being on the program either. There are so many amazing step parents who should be considered in an honorable way at a wedding. But every so often there is a rotten one in the bunch and you just can't fathom thinking of them as more than the person you mother/father married. And that is OK.

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:aa297651-fd23-4624-863c-0dff33a45dc3">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]Sigh,  I did not say that some stepparents should not be named in progam.   I just do not agree with Wally that to list a step as a step is an etiquette wrong.    How is identifying someone as a spouse not respecting their marriage?   The don't seperate social units does not refer to listing on a program.   <strong>Apparently, according to Wally it is a good, nice thing for kids to worry about stepparents feelings above all, including their own bioparents feelings. </strong> Wally, even if we all agreed that IRL you function as a parent, that does not make etiquette rules for all people. Dad, accompanied by wife, is fine.
Posted by NYUgirl100[/QUOTE]

Wally isn't the only person that thinks this.
If my bio parent was a complete douchebag, I would take the feelings of my stepparent into consideration before my bio parent.

HockeyFan4

Ultimately ettiquette is to not offend.

If you have no relationship whatsoever with your step parent, what you are suggesting is fine, however, stating it your way will indicate to everyone that you have no relationship with your step parent.
If you have a relationship with your step parent, listing them as Bio Parent and Step Parent is fine.

You keep mentioning the feelings of the bio parent...but the spouse of the step parent is a bio parent as well.  In the case of the OP, the FFIL is acting like a child.  While she needs to consider his feelings, she also needs to realize that he is being immature.

button6004

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:9d5153db-b3ff-47a6-83bc-34d1bb3a783e">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Programs and Parents. : I do not agree with that.  Listing someone as spouse of parent indicates exactly the same relationship as stepparent.  Some people do not like the word stepparent. Even some people who are stepparents.   <strong>Of course, both bioparents' feelings should be considered.  But at the end of the day, step parent is not a parent.  At most, absent adoption, step parent may act as a parent.</strong>  So my fall back would be step should not be identified as a parent, if a parent would object.
Posted by NYUgirl100[/QUOTE]

Okay, NYU, so using your logic, my dad (aka my mother's husband, my stepfather, the only father I've ever had) is not my parent? Do you have any idea how offensive you are?

My biological father abandoned my mother when she was in her first trimester with me and has chosen to have no part in my life.  I dont need to consider his feelings.  My mother's husband may technically be my stepfather, but it would be a cold day in hell before I'd ever call him that.  You are highly disrespectful to anyone who considers their stepparent a legitimate parent and even more so towards stepparents who ARE LEGITIMATELY PARENTS TO THEIR SPOUSE'S CHILDREN.

CN: NYU can go suck a nut. Seriously.  You are the worst.

MrsMack10612

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:5f72679d-d81e-4934-b0fd-6f9cd570859d">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Programs and Parents. : Then why not list them as a unit? Your post implies she will be listed on a seperate line. Also, have you asked your dad how he feels about this? ETA: It sounds like there might be other issues with your dad (from what I gather from post above) so maybe it's a whole big ugly can of worms. 
Posted by willywally5[/QUOTE]

I'm way late to respond to this.  I have not read all the comments, but to my own situation:

Yes, there is a much bigger can of worms involved here.  In the simplest answer, she was never a parent to me; so therefore she is not a step.  Perhaps what I'm doing is passive-agressive, but it was the best compromise I could come up with without leaving her off the program entirely.

I do not make the general statement as others that step =/= parent.  I personally know some steps that are better than bio.  This is strictly for my personal situation.

button6004

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:2b91e191-c104-4387-930e-0456f1cfc08d">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]Button, did you bother to read, where I said, IF.IF.IF (Ok, emphasis added) where a parent would object?  It seems to me that you have no parent who would object to your calling your stepfather your father.  That does not mean that in situations where both parents are involved with child, that their feelings should be disregarded, and they should be told get over it. 
Posted by NYUgirl100[/QUOTE]

I couldnt really get past the part where you said a stepparent may only "act" as a parent but isnt a real one.

LiLe422

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:8942a3ba-27cf-4078-8d1b-3d5b5b6d3482">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Programs and Parents. : I don' t know which comment offended you -- if it was I don't agree with steps=parents, I stand by it. <strong> A stepparent is not a parent.</strong>  If a step is offended by being identified as mom or dad's spouse, then so be it.  Many people will get offended at wedding, for example, people who are not invited, people who were not BMs, etc.  Being offended doesnt mean someone should be catered to, and doesn't mean someone else is guilty of bad etiquette.  I understand YOUR situation, its not everyones.
Posted by NYUgirl100[/QUOTE]

You gotta be flucking kidding me.  Quite a broad generalization, don't you think?  Really, do you realize how stupid that sounds?  Yes, <em>some</em> step parents may not act as a parent but let me tell you there are SPs out there that <strong>ARE</strong> a childs <strong>REAL</strong> parent. 
My sisters bf left her the minute she told him she was pregnant.  She has been with her (now) husband since my nephew was born.  He <strong>IS</strong> my nephews father, no questions asked.
ETA: Your POV on this subject is so very offensive.  I think you should take a step back and open your eyes, so you can see how closed-minded your POV really is.

KellyBrian2013

My bio parents do not get along - they are civil for the sake of me and my brother. My dad married his wife only 4 years ago, when I was already in my 20's. I have never lived with them. I am lucky to see them once or twice per year (they live out of state).

And yet, our programs said:
Parents of the Bride
Stepdad & BioMom Last Name
BioDad & Stepmom Last Name

Did my mom love that my dad's wife was listed? No. But she got over it - and I also made her suck it up and ordered a corsage for my dad's wife.

My dad seated his wife before waiting for me during the "seating of the parents", and both my stepdad (who essentially raised me from the time I was 9) and bio dad walked me down the aisle.

I can't even begin to tell you, NYU, how hurt and offended my stepdad would be to read what you say. Even my bio dad said to him at the wedding "You did a great job raising them" (about my brother and I). And my dad was not an absentee father, so that says a lot. And while, by your definition, my stepmom is "just my dad's wife", she would have been VERY hurt to have been specially designated as NOT my mom.

Guess what - even FI's family members that I had never met yet figured out that my Bio Mom was just that and my Bio Dad was just that. They didn't need "... accompanied by his/her wife/husband" to figure it out.

KellyBrian2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:fc432cbb-cd82-42b1-9cd3-7e01cc200a79">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]Still waiting for any cite to any book etc that says that stepparents must be referred to as parents.  Kelly, I get it, you decided better to tell your mom to suck it up, than to identify SM as SM.   That doesnt mean everyone has to.  <strong> If your dad praised your StepDad for raising you, I am a little unclear as to how SM could have had a major role, equivalent to a mom, but OK.</strong> 
Posted by NYUgirl100[/QUOTE]

And the bolded is exactly why you are being called obtuse.

I CLEARLY posted that my dad's wife DID NOT have a role (of any kind) in raising me. They haven't even been married for 5 years. And yet, I still recognized her in every.single.way as a parent - because she is my dad's wife and that made HIM happy.

button6004

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:fc432cbb-cd82-42b1-9cd3-7e01cc200a79">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]Still waiting for any cite to any book etc that says that stepparents must be referred to as parents.  Kelly, I get it, you decided better to tell your mom to suck it up, than to identify SM as SM.   That doesnt mean everyone has to.   If your dad praised your StepDad for raising you, I am a little unclear as to how SM could have had a major role, equivalent to a mom, but OK. 
Posted by NYUgirl100[/QUOTE]

I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge just how offensive your commentary on stepparenting as been.

HockeyFan4

Let me just end this now.  NYU: you are incorrect.

par·ent

noun

1.a father or a mother.

2.an ancestor, precursor, or progenitor.

3.a source, origin, or cause.

4.a protector or guardian.

5.Biology . any organism that produces or generates another.

HockeyFan4

and from Webster Dictionary

¹par·ent

noun \ˈper-ənt\

Definition of PARENT

1a : one that begets or brings forth offspring
  b : a person who brings up and cares for another

2 a : an animal or plant that is regarded in relation to its offspring b : the material or source from which something is derived c : a group from which another arises and to which it usually remains subsidiary <a parent company>

KellyBrian2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:6b7123f9-33b8-4dee-8480-4ca1dde2c8ee">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]I knew NYU had a weird hang-up with SP's. CLICK
Posted by rachers1017[/QUOTE]

Annd the link at the end of that thread is a real gem too: <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wedding-invites-divorced-parents">CLICKY</a>!

willywally5

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_programs-and-parents?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:bff94bfe-f02c-42bb-a138-34470a6751b9Post:6b7123f9-33b8-4dee-8480-4ca1dde2c8ee">Re: Programs and Parents.</a>:
[QUOTE]I knew NYU had a weird hang-up with SP's. CLICK
Posted by rachers1017[/QUOTE]

<div>Yes, most definitely. She doesn't blame Daddy Pocketbook for the affair that broke up her happy home, but despises SM. Ummm, yeah. Cuz apparently she was some sort fo siren who left Daddy Pocketbook unable to make conscience decisions for which he needs to account. </div><div>Clearly, BIG issues here. But, she wants him to pay for the wedding, so there's that.</div><div>
</div><div>She is also obsessed with wanting 'citations' on everything etiquette related. Um, sometimes it is just being NICE and DECENT that dictates etiquette, not a book. </div><div>
</div>

strlzfan11

NYU- how old are you?  Your maturity level in this thread alone tells me you have some growing up to do.  It's not your place to judge your father's marriage.  My grandfather married his current wife and didn't tell any of his kids he was getting married.  We showed up on Christmas to discover they'd gotten married 2 days earlier and she had already moved in.  There were hurt feelings all around, but we actually took the time to get to know her, and it took a few years.  She never once tried to take my grandmother's place in any of our lives.

I think you're the one who needs to suck it up and give her a chance.

strlzfan11

Clearly, you're the one who's acting like a child in all of this.