NWR Genderless Child

elizabeth121985

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389593/Kathy-Witterick-David-Stocker-raising-genderless-baby.html

Not sure how I feel about this.  I'm all for a child thinking for themselves, and also the parents accepting whichever lifestyle their child chooses to lead.....but this goes too far for me personally. 

Just had to share.  Don't think I've ever come across a story so unique....

elizabeth121985

Good Gracious get a load of my spelling mistake.  I meant *gendERless* child.  ugh

FAIL

tayylor65

I think they can raise their child any way they'd like but I personally don't see the point behind that.  

[Deleted User]

I agree with letting kids be free thinkers and choose for themselves, but honestly these parents sound like AWs and I have a feeling they are obnoxious. Not telling the baby's sex AFTER birth? I don't get it. Eventually people will have to know. What happens when the baby is older and at school, and has to choose between the girl's or boy's bathroom?

[Deleted User]

Interesting experiment, though I'm not a fan of this "child-led" parenting style, which this couple seems to embrace in general.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

I totally get the over-genderization of the baby industrial complex. If I'm honest, it's probably one reason I don't want to find out the sex of my future progeny until birth - I don't even want the temptation to make their nurseries even subtly masculine or feminine. I just want them to be baby-like. I despise the fact that to many people, the most important thing appears to be the baby's sex. And given that the sex or gender of infants and small children isn't really apparent, it means using external means - frilly pink dresses, barbies, kitchen sets, fire trucks, shirts with dinosaurs, navy blue everything - to show the world "what" your baby is. And really, does it matter that much? I don't think I'll be offended if a stranger can't tell on first glance that my bald baby dressed in green is a boy vs. a girl or whatever. I'd rather my kids grow up and like what they like - be it trucks or dolls or purple or red - because it reflects their personality, not because of society's imposed genderization of colors and products, telling them "this is what girls/boys like."

That said, I think this couple is much too extreme. They're basically setting their kid up to be a social experiment, but under amateur conditions. There's also something to be said for teaching your child social norms - but encouraging them to figure out their own likes and dislikes, which I do not see them doing with their older child. It's fine to say, "you can certainly wear the pink boa, but for now, we'll keep it at home" or "your hair looks lovely long, but most of the boys in your class will have short hair." I mean, I'm big on knowing and practicing what's appropriate in public, even if/when you disagree. Or just removing yourself from that kind of situation. It seems like they're setting their kids up for a lot of teasing and ostracizing just for their own ideals, rather than enhancing their kids' lives by allowing them to form their own gender identity in a more subtle way, if that makes sense.

emilyinchile

I think this is crazy talk. I would consider myself a pretty liberal person - I'm all for gay marriage, have no problem with the idea of someone being transgender, etc - but for whatever reason this just seems to me like an extremist version of being open and liberal where it goes beyond the point of tolerance to the point of being absurd.

I also think that men and women are different. Years of evolution and biology have made us different. I don't think that gender needs to be limiting, and if someone feels like he/she is the other gender then that's fine by me, but I do think that gender is a part of what makes each person who he/she is. Trying to exclude it from the equation entirely doesn't make sense to me.

Moneypenny424

I think the parents want to pretend there isn't a difference between sex and gender.  Sure, you can impose gender roles on someone, but that doesn't change whether someone is genetically or phenotypically male or female. 

I think it is great that they let their little boy twirl in pink dresses and wear pink boas, but I don't really see the point in keeping gender a secret.  I'll try not to force stereotypical gender roles on my kids (everyone can play with the little kitchen, wear boas and skirts or ride dirt bikes) and I like to think I'd accept them, be them tomboys, effeminate, or transgendered. 

emilyinchile

Mery, I also really agree with your second paragraph. It's all well and good to say "the world should be different" and to try to make it different, but I think there's a limit to how much change is appropriate, especially when children are involved. Telling your boy child that of course he can play house and explaining to any other boys that actually, playing house is cool because they can be good daddies who love their pretend children and get to pretend cook = age-appropriate challenging of stereotypes. Allowing your 5 year old boy to look like a girl to the extent that the teasing he receives makes him want to stay home from school = not properly setting your child up to succeed.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-gendless-child?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d0b4a757-6111-49a5-930f-082267aa7d65Post:5625d568-5a89-4b14-a1ec-c921d8ed1b56">Re: NWR Gendless Child</a>:
[QUOTE]I agree with letting kids be free thinkers and choose for themselves, but honestly these parents sound like AWs and I have a feeling they are obnoxious. Not telling the baby's sex AFTER birth? I don't get it. Eventually people will have to know. <strong>What happens when the baby is older and at school, and has to choose between the girl's or boy's bathroom?</strong>
Posted by Seshat411[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the more I think about this, the more curious it becomes. I mean, in practice, it seems rather... bad. How do you teach your children the difference between boys and girls, in terms of sex organs? You have to teach them the proper terms for genitalia, you have to teach them about not letting people touch them in a private way, you have to teach them a lot about sex, because there IS a difference between the sexes. And there's a difference between being of the male or female gender. Ignoring the differences is the wrong way to go about it, IMO.

Meg1036

Ditto Mery, 100%.  Especially the part about over-gendering babies.  I hate it.  But this couple is definitely taking things to a pointless extreme.

achiduck

I've heard of couples who have a hermaphrodite child raising it "genderless" and letting the child decide what gender they identify with, but I've never heard of this before.

I can understand that they don't necessarily want their child forced into what little girls or boys "should do" but come on, this is taking it a little far. If a boy wants to play with barbies, let him and if a girl wants to play with tonka trucks I personally do not see the big deal.

Moneypenny424

Storm will be in for a surprise if he/she is female and gets her period as a teenager, whether or not she chooses to.

Ghoti

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-gendless-child?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d0b4a757-6111-49a5-930f-082267aa7d65Post:8b6ccd0d-818a-4909-bb57-35b194681f6e">Re: NWR Gendless Child</a>:
[QUOTE]I think this is crazy talk. I would consider myself a pretty liberal person - I'm all for gay marriage, have no problem with the idea of someone being transgender, etc - but for whatever reason this just seems to me like an extremist version of being open and liberal where it goes beyond the point of tolerance to the point of being absurd. I also think that men and women are different. Years of evolution and biology have made us different. I don't think that gender needs to be limiting, and if someone feels like he/she is the other gender then that's fine by me, but I do think that gender is a part of what makes each person who he/she is. Trying to exclude it from the equation entirely doesn't make sense to me.
Posted by emilyinchile[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>This, entirely. </div><div>
</div><div>I don't have a problem with most of what they do, I have a similar but much less extreme parenting style, but there isn't a lot of point of making a big deal that you aren't sharing the sex of the child. My girls could be dressed in pink, in a pink car seat with bows in their hair, and people would still be like "what a cute little boy!!!'. I gave up on the pink pretty quick. 

</div>

Ghoti

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-gendless-child?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d0b4a757-6111-49a5-930f-082267aa7d65Post:32c7fe89-c051-41db-9921-a321dcb8e306">Re: NWR Gendless Child</a>:
[QUOTE]Good Gracious get a load of my spelling mistake.  I meant *gendERless* child.  ugh FAIL
Posted by elizabeth121985[/QUOTE]
You can edit it, I don't think people will care. But for what it's worth,  I read it as Genderless :)

annakb8

I read about this yesterday and pretty much agree with Mery's points.

I think these parents are completely overboard, I don't think there is anything wrong with people asking the sex of your baby, there isn't really anything else interesting to ask about a baby. That doesn't mean they have to make their baby conform to gender norms by wearing pink or blue everyday. You can tell people your kid is a boy without forcing him to play with trucks and go out for the football team.

I also think it could be slightly offensive to transgendered people and other people outside gender norms to imply that this baby can have free choice in his gender identity.

jaycee7389

The parents can't change the childs physical gender (unless they did sex change surgery) so what is the point in hiding it? No one is forcing them to dress them a certain way or make them play with certain toys. This child will choose how he/she wants to express him/herself sexually, emotionally, etc regardless of his/her physical gender. How about just raising a child explaining to them that they are male or female, and not forcing any of the stereotypes on them and let them choose for themself how the want to dress, play, act, etc. I guess that is just too hard though.

aragx6

Mery I love you and agree with every word.

I knew a woman whose little daughter was bald -- like lots of babies! She literally would tape a little pink bow on her head, because god forbid anyone might think she was a boy.

But what these folks are doing is an experiment -- an interesting one -- but an experiment that will affect their kid's whole life. That's not OK with me.

jaycee7389

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-gendless-child?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d0b4a757-6111-49a5-930f-082267aa7d65Post:71f846c8-325f-420c-b39a-57ebb5270a7b">Re: NWR Gendless Child</a>:
[QUOTE]Mery I love you and agree with every word. I knew a woman whose little daughter was bald -- like lots of babies! <strong>She literally would tape a little pink bow on her head,</strong> because god forbid anyone might think she was a boy. But what these folks are doing is an experiment -- an interesting one -- but an experiment that will affect their kid's whole life. That's not OK with me.
Posted by aragx6[/QUOTE]

they literally sell headbands with tufts of hair and bows on them for bald baby girls. people are insane!

Moneypenny424

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-gendless-child?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d0b4a757-6111-49a5-930f-082267aa7d65Post:9fe837bc-d875-4d70-b089-71d98d435890">Re: NWR Gendless Child</a>:
[QUOTE]I read about this yesterday and pretty much agree with Mery's points. I think these parents are completely overboard, I don't think there is anything wrong with people asking the sex of your baby, there isn't really anything else interesting to ask about a baby. That doesn't mean they have to make their baby conform to gender norms by wearing pink or blue everyday. You can tell people your kid is a boy without forcing him to play with trucks and go out for the football team. <strong>I also think it could be slightly offensive to transgendered people and other people outside gender norms to imply that this baby can have free choice in his gender identity.</strong>
Posted by annakb8[/QUOTE]

This is what I thought too.  There are innate feelings we have about being male or female that may or may not correspond to our genitals. 

I think it is great for parents to be open minded and give their children a wide range of experiences, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't inform kids how people generally do things. 

midgetthemighty

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-gendless-child?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:d0b4a757-6111-49a5-930f-082267aa7d65Post:53262de7-3d03-44ab-9e28-10c3a4aed127">Re: NWR Gendless Child</a>:
[QUOTE]Storm will be in for a surprise if he/she is female and gets her period as a teenager, whether or not she chooses to.
Posted by Moneypenny424[/QUOTE]

The same thought came to my mind.

Meg1036

I think there is an interesting question here about gender constructs.  I can't find anything now, but I have seen studies to the effect that parents/other adults interact with children/babies very differently depending on the child's sex.  And that those subtle differences in early interaction may actually for the basis of a lot of stereotypical behaviors that later reinforce (potentially harmful) gender norms.  For example, adults are more likely to tell young boys to explore and toughen up if they get hurt, and coddle young girls/keep them closer to home.  I can't find the studies now, because of course that would be too convenient.

I guess my point is that I am all for trying to minimize or eliminate behaviors that are limiting or which form the basis for later gendered expectations (i.e., why are there so few female engineers and male nurses?) But totally ignoring sex is not the answer.

So yeah, I guess that's another way of saying I agree with Mery, but find this all pretty interesting.

laurenclaire1386

Leading a child to believe that its sex has no bearing on its life is irresponsible parenting. The rest of the world doesn't think that way, and I can guarantee these macadamia nuts aren't going to change anyone else's mind.

mica178

Unless the baby was born with ambiguous genitalia and they want the child to declare its gender for future surgeries, I don't see the point. 

I do think that babies/children's clothing is over genderized.  It's funny to think that just 30 years ago, parents did not have the option of knowing what they'd get until birth, so most newborns and young children wore gender neutral clothing.  Half of my infant and toddler clothing was boy clothing (between hand-me-downs and random guessing on the part of my parents' friends), and I was bald for the first year of my life.  Somehow I still managed to develop into a reasonably normal person.

But what this couple is doing?  It's a crazy publicity stunt, and I don't think it's going to improve that baby's outcome, if anything, it'll confuse him/her because of all the attention the people around it pay to its possible sex/gender.

blush64

I think those parents are cruel.

There are stereotypes and issues in the world but the way to fix this is NOT to pretend we are genderless. Gender is not a choice.

aragx6

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-gendless-child?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:d0b4a757-6111-49a5-930f-082267aa7d65Post:4523190e-0aa8-4017-a46f-156f582a262a">Re: NWR Gendless Child</a>:
[QUOTE]I think there is an interesting question here about gender constructs.  I can't find anything now, but I have seen studies to the effect that parents/other adults interact with children/babies very differently depending on the child's sex.  And that those subtle differences in early interaction may actually for the basis of a lot of stereotypical behaviors that later reinforce (potentially harmful) gender norms.  For example, adults are more likely to tell young boys to explore and toughen up if they get hurt, and coddle young girls/keep them closer to home.  I can't find the studies now, because of course that would be too convenient. I guess my point is that I am all for trying to minimize or eliminate behaviors that are limiting or which form the basis for later gendered expectations (i.e., why are there so few female engineers and male nurses?) But totally ignoring sex is not the answer. So yeah, I guess that's another way of saying I agree with Mery, but find this all pretty interesting.
Posted by Meg1036[/QUOTE]

I have a couple books left from a Gender Roles class I took in college and I know one of them had info about this exact thing ... of course I'm not at home.

annakb8

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-gendless-child?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d0b4a757-6111-49a5-930f-082267aa7d65Post:ff8c1f6b-eb7d-4004-a1ab-8976195c69db">Re: NWR Gendless Child</a>:
[QUOTE]Unless the baby was born with ambiguous genitalia and they want the child to declare its gender for future surgeries, I don't see the point.  I do think that babies/children's clothing is over genderized.  It's funny to think that just 30 years ago, parents did not have the option of knowing what they'd get until birth, so most newborns and young children wore gender neutral clothing.  Half of my infant and toddler clothing was boy clothing (between hand-me-downs and random guessing on the part of my parents' friends), and I was bald for the first year of my life.  Somehow I still managed to develop into a reasonably normal person. But what this couple is doing?  It's a crazy publicity stunt, and<strong> I don't think it's going to improve that baby's outcome, if anything, it'll confuse him/her because of all the attention the people around it pay to its possible sex/gender.</strong>
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that this kid will end up convinced that sex and/or gender is THE thing that defines it's identity. Not the other way around.

The Mel and Todd Show

It seems to me that they are going to have results in stark contrast to that which they're hoping for.  Had they said "oh, Storm is a boy" (or whatever) that would end the question.  Now there is intrigue and a distinct concentration on ONLY this fact about the child.  More than anything, they're creating a larger concentration on gender and it's importance by begging for the speculation. 

DNAtime

I am not a fan of these parents enforcing their ideals on their child in a protest against society enforcing ideals on children.  It doesn't make sense.

This kind of reminds me of some Wife Swap episodes where they pair the totally opposite families and one family is usually "free spirited" and wants their kids to do what they want. Unless what their kid wants is to go out for football. That is not okay because its not free thinking, despite the fact that the child chose the sport by thinking for himself.

elizabeth121985

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-gendless-child?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:d0b4a757-6111-49a5-930f-082267aa7d65Post:9577d447-7e1e-4a99-b5cf-8624a07bedba">Re: NWR Gendless Child</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR Gendless Child : You can edit it, I don't think people will care. But for what it's worth,  I read it as Genderless :)
Posted by Ghoti[/QUOTE]

Sweet!  Thanks :)

DNAtime

I also agree with PPs, while gender is complicated and gender roles may not always be appropriate, biological sex is. Thats all. This child has a sex and will have to deal with that at some point i.e. public restrooms, puberty, etc.