Commitment Ceremony

arv266

I've seen some post on this, but I wanted your opinion on commitment ceremonies versus a legal marriage.  I know that there are strong opinions out there for legal marriages, and the protection it gives you, and the fact that some people cannot legally marry their partners.  

My question stems from the fact that we recently found out that since we are marrying outside of VA, our marriage will not be viewed as valid in VA.  We are getting married in NY, which is where our families are.  So we can either go to a VA courthouse before or after, or do nothing as our plans are to eventually move to NY.

This has started me thinking about what really makes a marriage a "marriage?" Is it the legal slip of paper or the vows that bind you together?

Thoughts?  Opinions?  Other VA brides who went through this?

waltzingmatilda13

Why won't it be legal in VA? That seems really odd to me.

How long will you be in VA before you move to NY?

If I were you I would go ahead and get legally married in VA just because. Then you'll be covered if anything comes up (like what, I don't know). But just to be on the safe side.

Birdie1483

That's crazy that VA is like that! We're getting married in IN but I think it will still be valid in KY (I hope!).

I have no religious connection to how I view marriage, so for me personally it will be defined by the legal document that we will have afterwards. It's not to say that we don't have a commitment to each other before or after, but our "marriage" will take place when we sign the license. I view the vows as something personal and separate for the commitment part of our relationship.

waltzingmatilda13

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_commitment-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d8769c6b-c869-4e9f-813c-cee5750e5dbbPost:589687b8-6a85-4161-9bf1-607454ebbb91">Re: Commitment Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Commitment Ceremony : yeah, I mean for insurance & things like that, right?
Posted by jcbsjr[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's sort of what I was thinking. You just never know.

redheadfsu

Um, Virginia won't acknowledge another state's valid marriage? Are your sure? Cause I highly doubt it.

lyndausvi

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_commitment-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d8769c6b-c869-4e9f-813c-cee5750e5dbbPost:804c63c1-20dc-456b-9636-bebf65e9dc4a">Re: Commitment Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]Um, Virginia won't acknowledge another state's valid marriage? Are your sure? Cause I highly doubt it.
Posted by redheadfsu[/QUOTE]


Ditto? 

I find that VERY hard to believe.  Unless you are a same-sex couple.  I'm not sure the laws regarding that.

ohwhynot

Wait.  Are you positive about that? The "full faith and credit" clause in the US Constitution guarantees that each state honors marriages performed in another state UNLESS the marriage was done in another state to circumvent a particular law in Virginia (i.e., remarriage within less than the allowed time period in your state, marriage between cousins, gay marriage). 

I haven't looked into this beyond reading your post, but now you have me curious.  Who told you that your marriage wouldn't ve valid, and what was the reason given? 

arv266

I wish I was making this up.  I am surprised that there wasn't a huge upraod about this, but it is sadly true.  I think it is VA's way of opposing DC's allowing gay marriages.

Marry outside Va. and it may not count

Marriages that take place outside of Virginia are not valid in the Commonwealth, even if the couple has obtained a legal Virginia marriage license and the ceremony is performed by a person authorized to do so in Virginia, reporter Rosalind Helderman tells us over at the Virginia Politics blog.

Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli (R) issued the legal opinion in May in response to a question from the clerk of the Prince William County court regarding a couple whose marriage ceremony took place in Bethesda.

But the opinion -- one of six Cuccinelli has issued since May 6 -- was not posted online. The attorney general's office in recent years has generally provided quick online access to the opinions. The office's website indicated that the general practice is to put opinions onto the Internet within 24 to 48 hours after they are issued.

Cuccinelli spokesman Brian Gottstein said an employee charged with putting the opinions online recently left the office, creating a backlog of opinions not publicized through the website. He said the employee has now been replaced and the process will improve soon.

Check out the Virginia Politics blog for more details.

FutureMrsTR

Yes, please to be providing more information because I thought everything that OWN just said.

ETA:  Nevermind, you just did.  Thanks!

missy68

I think that is saying you can't take a VA marriage license out of state to get married. You have to get a marriage license in the state where you are getting married.

Correct me if I'm wrong?

waltzingmatilda13

Have you actually called and spoken someone about this or are you just going off that 1article? I would call somebody, you can't believe everything you see in the media.

ohwhynot

Okay, I've read a little bit now, and 1.  This was an AG opinion and not necesarily binding law.  2.  The opinion doesn't really say what it appears to say.  The marriage in question was NOT a valid marriage in Maryland - the couple only had a VA marriage license and the ceremony took place in MD. 

So if you are getting married in NY, get legally married in N Y with a valid NY marriage license.  Then the state of VA will recognize your legal marriage. 

ETA:  just what Missy said. 

lyndausvi

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_commitment-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d8769c6b-c869-4e9f-813c-cee5750e5dbbPost:1a2cc52f-ed07-4669-b75e-ff529e91fd25">Re: Commitment Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]I think that is saying you can't take a VA marriage license out of state to get married. You have to get a marriage license in the state where you are getting married. Correct me if I'm wrong?
Posted by missy68[/QUOTE]

That is my thought also.

[Deleted User]

i'm a va resident and we got married in md. we're married in va. i don't get it.

redheadfsu

An additional clarification on this marriage opinion--the decision relates only to couples who seek Virginia marriage licenses and then want to hold their ceremonies out-of-state. It changes nothing for couples who get licenses in other states and then move to Virginia. The marriages of couples who hold valid out-of-state licenses will continue to be recognized by Virginia. (Although Virginia's constitution bars recognition of same-sex marriages performed in those states where they are legal.)


Licenses are only valid in the state they are issued. You are reading it wrong OP. Talk to a local lawyer for clarification.

ETA: Yeah, what the above pps said. Just get legally married in NY (get a NY license) & Virginia will recognize it.

FutureMrsTR

Slightly OT, but I was Googling about this really quick and came across this statement on the Virginia Dept of Health website about "prohibited" marriages in VA:

A marriage between an ancestor and or descendant; or between a brother and a sister; or between an uncle and a niece; or between an aunt and a nephew; whether the relationship is by half or the whole blood or adoption.

I think it's strange that if you're "related" by adoption, you couldn't marry.  It might be weird, but why should that be unlawful? 
Is there something I'm not thinking of?  (<--totally possible)

noelle24

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_commitment-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d8769c6b-c869-4e9f-813c-cee5750e5dbbPost:54e24faa-f6f2-4001-9758-9c171c9030d4">Re: Commitment Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]I wish I was making this up.  I am surprised that there wasn't a huge upraod about this, but it is sadly true.  I think it is VA's way of opposing DC's allowing gay marriages. Marry outside Va. and <strong>it may not count Marriages that take place outside of Virginia are not valid in the Commonwealth, even if the couple has obtained a legal Virginia marriage license and the ceremony is performed by a person authorized to do so in Virginia</strong>, reporter Rosalind Helderman tells us over at the Virginia Politics blog. Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli (R) issued the legal opinion in May in response to a question from the clerk of the Prince William County court regarding a couple whose marriage ceremony took place in Bethesda. But the opinion -- one of six Cuccinelli has issued since May 6 -- was not posted online. The attorney general's office in recent years has generally provided quick online access to the opinions. The office's website indicated that the general practice is to put opinions onto the Internet within 24 to 48 hours after they are issued. Cuccinelli spokesman Brian Gottstein said an employee charged with putting the opinions online recently left the office, creating a backlog of opinions not publicized through the website. He said the employee has now been replaced and the process will improve soon. Check out the Virginia Politics blog for more details .
Posted by arv266[/QUOTE]

Definitely call your local marriage bureau and ask.  Most of the laws I've looked into for other states, you MUST get a marriage license from the state where you are legally marrying (i.e., a NY license for your NY wedding). If I tried to get a RI liscense to get married in NY, that wouldn't be valid in either state. 

Definitely call and ask!  Don't rely on news media articles.

arv266

Thank you redhead.    What is not clear to me is for the couples who are residents of VA and marry outside the commonwealth.  

This article has a quote from the AG of VA which states that VA residents who marry outside may also want to have JOP ceremony is addition to their "destination" wedding.

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=103504&catid=158

FutureMrsTR

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_commitment-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:d8769c6b-c869-4e9f-813c-cee5750e5dbbPost:1eaeeb3a-d1e5-42a4-a86a-d45831b543b0">Re: Commitment Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]Thank you redhead.    What is not clear to me is for the couples who are residents of VA and marry outside the commonwealth.  <strong> This article has a quote from the AG of VA which states that VA residents who marry outside may also want to have JOP ceremony is addition to their "destination" wedding.</strong> <a href="http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=103504&catid=158" rel="nofollow">http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=103504&catid=158</a>
Posted by arv266[/QUOTE]

Sounds like he just wants you to pay money to the state of VA.

ohwhynot

Tr, regarding the "whether by blood or adoption" language:  it is extremely strange to me.  It's basically illegal because it seems "icky."  IMO, that's the exact same reason gay marriage is illegal.


I'll go you one further:  I don't think marriages between any consenting adults should be illegal.  I honestly don't care if they are cousins, brother/sister, whatever.  Just because it seems icky isn't enough reason to say they can't marry if they choose to.


I know people will say "But they'll have defective children" as the real reason for banning consinguinous marriages, but I don't buy that for a couple of reasons.  


The main reason I don't buy it is because all kinds of people who marry have a very good chance of bearing "defective" children.  We don't ban people who carry the genes for Tay Sach disease, for example, or cystic fibrosis, from marrying.  We don't insist on genetic counseling to insure that people aren't bearing "defective children."  So really, imo, it comes down to the ick factor, and i don't think the ick factor is enough to steer public policy.

FutureMrsTR

I feel exactly the same way, OWN.  As long as two (or more if we could figure out the tax/benefits problems) consentual, sentient beings (no pineapples or goats or children) want to marry...have at it.

waltzingmatilda13

It doesn't matter what state you are a resident OF, you only have to prove that you are an American citizen (birth certificate or passport) and that you're not marrying your brother or cousin. You can get married anywhere in the US by doing those 2 things and your marriage will be valid throughout the US.

redheadfsu

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_commitment-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d8769c6b-c869-4e9f-813c-cee5750e5dbbPost:1eaeeb3a-d1e5-42a4-a86a-d45831b543b0">Re: Commitment Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]Thank you redhead.    What is not clear to me is for the couples who are residents of VA and marry outside the commonwealth.   This article has a quote from the AG of VA which states that VA residents who marry outside may also want to have JOP ceremony is addition to their "destination" wedding. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=103504&catid=158">http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=103504&catid=158</a>
Posted by arv266[/QUOTE]

The Atty General's opinion was limited to marriages with a Virginia license performed out of state. (at least the one in the first link you provided). Most states would not recognize it. This isn't news. Just people that don't understand it trying to make it into a story.

parker624

ARV:  read the first three comments to that article they sum it up well, but to recap:

1. only VA can issue VA marriage licenses that happen in VA.  If you get married in MD, get a MD marriage license.  It WILL be recognized in VA under the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution (Similar to your driver's license-- you may have a driver's license in VA but you are allowed to drive in all 50 states).  One caveat:  if you're a same-sex marriage, VA won't recognize it.

2.  The comment about having a JOP ceremony in VA is just a way to pander to stupid people to pay fees to VA after they've already been married.  Its a ploy to collect some revenue. 

3.  I do not know how this applies to destination weddings outside the U.S.  

Birdie1483

FI and I live in KY but we're getting married in IN. We have to go to the county clerk of the county where the actual ceremony will take place to obtain our license... so we'll have an Indiana license. The PITA part about it is we BOTH have to go and it's 2 hours away. So it looks like we'll be taking some time off of work. :-/ Oh and it's costs 4 times as much for out of state residents to obtain a license. Chump change compared to the rest of wedding costs, but I still feel like sticking it to the man!

arv266

I feel foolish for missing the big picture, but it never dawned on me that a couple would get a marriage license in VA and use it out of state.  Duh. Double duh for me.

mandapanda78

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_commitment-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d8769c6b-c869-4e9f-813c-cee5750e5dbbPost:dcc8642f-eee1-4904-95cd-7150f6971150">Re: Commitment Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]i'm a va resident and we got married in md. we're married in va. i don't get it.
Posted by daffodil_jill[/QUOTE]

<div>I am also a VA resident and I got married in South Carolina. VA has never refuted any attempts I've made at changing my legal or tax status to "married".</div>

mandapanda78

Also, since we're talking about bizarre things other states do in regards to marriage licenses, can I just say that when we applied in Charleston we never had to show ID? Oh, the forms all say to bring ID with you, but no one ever looked. Also, Mr Panda was not required to show proof of divorce from his first marriage. He could totally be a bigamist.

squirrly

Birdie, double check - in Kentucky, you can get a license from ANY county clerk, so long as the Bride is old enough to sign for herself.  If she requires parental consent to marry, it must be issued in the county of her father's residence.  We got ours in Louisville but got married in my hometown.

I have no idea if Indiana is the same way, but it's worth a couple phone calls to see if you can just go over the river. 

Birdie1483

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_commitment-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d8769c6b-c869-4e9f-813c-cee5750e5dbbPost:8f3b0846-c33b-4831-8631-78b5954ab2ab">Re: Commitment Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]Birdie, double check - in Kentucky, you can get a license from ANY county clerk, so long as the Bride is old enough to sign for herself.  If she requires parental consent to marry, it must be issued in the county of her father's residence.  We got ours in Louisville but got married in my hometown. I have no idea if Indiana is the same way, but it's worth a couple phone calls to see if you can just go over the river. 
Posted by squirrly[/QUOTE]

Yeah I think the law is that if we were Indiana residences, we could go to any county clerk. However, since we're not state residences, we have to go to the county clerk of the county we'll get married in. :( I wish it was as easy as just hopping across the river. I do need to double check on if we both have to be there though. If just one of us could go it would be a lot easier!

kd.joseph

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_commitment-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:d8769c6b-c869-4e9f-813c-cee5750e5dbbPost:29739877-4698-4212-b0c7-d83f91c72a9f">Re: Commitment Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]Also, since we're talking about bizarre things other states do in regards to marriage licenses, can I just say that when we applied in Charleston we never had to show ID? Oh, the forms all say to bring ID with you, but no one ever looked. Also, Mr Panda was not required to show proof of divorce from his first marriage. He could totally be a bigamist.
Posted by mandapanda78[/QUOTE]

We got our license in Columbia, but were married in Charleston. They wanted ID, and SS cards. And we took our divorce papers just in case. But they didn't ask for them. And it was only $40 in Columbia, versus $75 in Charleston.