An open letter to the Community from our Co-founder, Carley Roney

NYCBruin

@drexelkathy

Right, I'm still waiting for a definition of "bullying" from @KnotPorscha or @KnotJackie

I feel like an example or two of bullying that violates the TOS would be helpful.  We can all speculate all we want, but since we don't have the power to ban, our opinions don't matter.

Unless of course we are going off the recent precedent, where a bunch of us could band together and all send complaints about one user we don't like.  What's the magic number, 40?  So all we need to do is find 40 people or make 40 AEs and then we can just get someone booted.

ETA and please update your TOS to explain this definition.  I like to know the rules of a community if I'm going to be a part of it.  

At the very least, correct the spelling of the word "tortious" in the longer version article 5.  Tortious refers to acts that are torts.  Tortuous means "marked by repeated bends, twists or turns" or "marked by devious or indirect tactics."  So while your TOS are indeed tortuous, I think when you used that word in them you meant "tortious."

KeptInStitches

And that's the concern I had that never got adequately addressed, despite many direct questions on that point.

MrsMack10612

drexelkathy said:

TXKristan said:

NYCBruin said:

KGs, can you please define bullying?

It would be especially helpful if you gave us examples.  Perhaps examples that led to Stage and Linger being banned.  

I would like to know how I'm allowed to post if I'm going to stick around here.

Linger called me a bigot because of my personal beliefs on same sex marriage.

I've gone back and found the conversation.  This was back on April 11th.  And on the very thread that is in question, KnotJackie stated:

Hi ladies,

This is a very hot topic that I know everyone has a strong, personal opinion about.

I don't mean to state the obvious here, but we all need to know and understand that we are not going to agree with one another, and it is fine for others to share their opinions.

No one's thoughts are right, and no one's thoughts are wrong. Every one is entitled to their own feelings on this topic.

Please do not start attacking one another over opinions. Do not start calling each other out, begin to bully, or target anyone based on their beliefs.

Since the new TOS is not up yet, please consider this a warning and be wary of your responses.

Again, I respect everyone's opinions, I just do not support attacking.

Thanks,
Jackie


So...even *if* the debate back in April was part of the reason that members of this forum were banned from the site...Knot staff member stated that no one was right and no one was wrong and that there were no active TOS at the time so therefore NO members were in violation of any TOS.

Therefore, I'm not really seeing how re-hashing a heated political debate from April has ANYTHING to do with the current topic at hand.

As I said - it was not my intention to rehash the topic.  I was merely using Kristan's example of being called a bigot a case of truth hurts, not bullying.

banana468

I've been on TK for just over 7 years now. I honestly don't think the vibe of the boards has changed a lot in terms of its brutal honesty and snark.

IMO, what has changed is the personalities of the snark recipients. We have moved to an era of "your decisions are right because it's your wedding" and "no one loses. Everyone wins."

Now kids play a game of baseball and no one keeps score because it hurts to lose. Then, they get to the real world and when strangers aren't validating them left and right, the kids get hurt and complain up the food chain until they receive the validation they desired. Mom taught them this in school when she was able to get grades changed and the learned behavior continues.

So whereas TK of 7 years ago had people getting their bad ideas ripped apart, the brides also listened. Now, we live in a society where people who get told no complain until the no is a yes. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, right?

Maggie0829

@banana468 I would love your post a million trillion times if I could

NYCBruin

Maggie0829 said:

@banana468 I would love your post a million trillion times if I could

Me too!

banana468

Thanks @Maggie0829 and @NYCBruin. I honestly feel bad for those trying to run a business built upon doing things appropriately when now we (a society) act like the rules are dumb.

BostonGIrl4732

banana468 said:

I've been on TK for just over 7 years now. I honestly don't think the vibe of the boards has changed a lot in terms of its brutal honesty and snark. IMO, what has changed is the personalities of the snark recipients. We have moved to an era of "your decisions are right because it's your wedding" and "no one loses. Everyone wins." Now kids play a game of baseball and no one keeps score because it hurts to lose. Then, they get to the real world and when strangers aren't validating them left and right, the kids get hurt and complain up the food chain until they receive the validation they desired. Mom taught them this in school when she was able to get grades changed and the learned behavior continues. So whereas TK of 7 years ago had people getting their bad ideas ripped apart, the brides also listened. Now, we live in a society where people who get told no complain until the no is a yes. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, right?

Love X 1,000,000

kmmssg

@banana468 - I would love your post eleventy billion more times if I could.

I've been around here for 9 years and in that time gone through 3 of my DDs' weddings.  Banana is EXACTLY on target when she says the tone of the recipients is what has changed around here.

Nine years ago you didn't have SYTTD, Four Weddings, Platinum Weddings, and David Tutera on the TV all the time showing you how grand, rude, or whatever you can be.  The industry has exploded exponentially during this time and it shows with Banana's remark of, "We have moved to an era of "your decisions are right because it's your wedding" and "no one loses. "

In just the few days since our mass exodus/incredibly unprofessional bannings, the tone on the Etiquette board is already changing.  Newbs think every kid has to be invited, etc.  It is sad to see things go this way as I truly believe a lot of blunt wisdom was lost.  Blunt wisdom is like pulling off a bandaid.  You can get it over with and go on your merry way and do the right thing, or you can argue your bad ideas until they are validated and then dirty delete because you were "bullied."

MrsMack10612

I have been around for going on 4 years.  Banana and Kmmssg are so on target.  It was pretty brutal around here when I first joined and the last few months have been nothing compared to that.

I am inclined to agree that as much as I disagree with the bannings, I more have a problem with how it was done.  It was a shitty way to treat longtime members who gave some of the best advice. 

AmJam04

I find it sad that I have to fear for the preservation of my 7 year account because if I say the wrong thing, I will be terminated without warning. How am I, a new wife with a good grasp of right v. wrong wedding ideas, supposed to feel comfortable posting my opinions on this site when anyone can complain that my answer is considered being rude -- simply because my opinion strongly disagrees with theirs? Why would this mentality be conducive to a flourishing message board?

I do not support the recent actions of TK staff. This place has been falling downhill since April/May, and it's greatly due to KGs changing everything, being unresponsive, and not abiding by the very TOS that they created (and changed... ).

This entire situation saddens me because I have many engaged friends who could benefit from joining the "old" tk (aka tk 8 days ago), but now I cant recommend this place because it no longer supports members who give honest advice.

Honesty =/= being an asshole or bully.
Way to ruin TK.

bellaluna290

banana468 said:

I've been on TK for just over 7 years now. I honestly don't think the vibe of the boards has changed a lot in terms of its brutal honesty and snark. IMO, what has changed is the personalities of the snark recipients. We have moved to an era of "your decisions are right because it's your wedding" and "no one loses. Everyone wins." Now kids play a game of baseball and no one keeps score because it hurts to lose. Then, they get to the real world and when strangers aren't validating them left and right, the kids get hurt and complain up the food chain until they receive the validation they desired. Mom taught them this in school when she was able to get grades changed and the learned behavior continues. So whereas TK of 7 years ago had people getting their bad ideas ripped apart, the brides also listened. Now, we live in a society where people who get told no complain until the no is a yes. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, right?

BostonGIrl4732 said:

banana468 said:

I've been on TK for just over 7 years now. I honestly don't think the vibe of the boards has changed a lot in terms of its brutal honesty and snark. IMO, what has changed is the personalities of the snark recipients. We have moved to an era of "your decisions are right because it's your wedding" and "no one loses. Everyone wins." Now kids play a game of baseball and no one keeps score because it hurts to lose. Then, they get to the real world and when strangers aren't validating them left and right, the kids get hurt and complain up the food chain until they receive the validation they desired. Mom taught them this in school when she was able to get grades changed and the learned behavior continues. So whereas TK of 7 years ago had people getting their bad ideas ripped apart, the brides also listened. Now, we live in a society where people who get told no complain until the no is a yes. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, right?

Love X 1,000,000

Love both of these quotes so hard.

I've only been on TK for a little over 3 years and the amount of entitlement by brides is growing. This place is rainbows compared to how it was when the old regs were posting. It's bullshit how the KGs decree things and then don't bother to answer the valid questions that posters have about them. Oh, and Carly...it's not very professional to call adult women working for you "girls." Maybe your employees wouldn't have gotten their speshul feelings hurt if they acted like the grown, adult women that they are and were treated as such.

Ditto everyone about the miss use of the word bullying.

susie829Wed100486

TXKristan said:

I know I'll be the only one saying this, but I honestly don't care.

I have been absent from this site for several months because of the people you described.  It made the site no fun and I was tired of how they treated people (including me).  I still have no motivation to come back, but am glad to hear that the staff is working to take this site back.

lurker here but i just couldn't let this go. honey, please stop lying when it's so easy to look at your posting history. also, it's not bullying when someone calls you a bigot. it's the truth. the use of the word bullying on here is ridiculous. it minimizes the very real torment that people who are actually bullied go through. i have never seen bullying on this site but i have seen a bunch of people who are way too sensitive to be on the internet. i can give you examples of what bullying is but it would probably get deleted.

i used this site years ago when i was planning my wedding and i have to agree with kmmssg and banana. this site has always been bluntly honest but now we're in the age of "nobody loses and do whatever you want for your pretty princess day no matter how rude it is". people get butt hurt because someone doesn't like their idea. not everyone is going to agree with you. that's how the world works.

KDM323

I've been a member of TK for over 10 years (joined when I was engaged the first time around).

A few months ago, I thought the regulars were being too tough on newbies.  Then I started logging in more often and saw how the same exact questions were being asked over and over and over again.  Questions about doing things that were poor etiquette, that had a general disregard for guests...and that likely ARE fed by the media/tv shows above.

Regular members must have said  "Tiered receptions are rude".  "Honeymoon registries are not appropriate" "Don't lie to your guests" numerous times a day.  

I watched how it was the regular members who logged in day in and day out that have likely saved hundreds of weddings from being real shit shows. 

Were they blunt?  Absolutely.  But damn...when just about every day another post would pop up saying "I'm already married but I'm a special princess and we're having a big wedding and lying to all of our guests...how do I word my invite so I'm not technically lying but also not telling the truth"  or "I live with my fiance for 3 years now and we don't need any "things' how can I word my shower invite with a cute poem that makes it ok to ask for cash" comes across the board...it made ME want to bang my head off the desk.  And I haven't been a truly active participant in the community...so,  I can only IMAGINE how it made the long time regular members felt.

And yet...the regulars would take their time, type out a response to said new member...explain AGAIN why these things weren't appropriate.   Usually,  they'd get an excuse back as to why the new member  is an "exception", they'd be told they are mean, they're already married so they shouldn't still be a member of the knot, or the new member would go and delete their post because they didn't like the advice they'd received. 

And let's not even count the numerous trolls, spam vendors, etc. that post all over the boards.

It gets old.  Fast. 

Rinse and repeat a couple hundred times and even a saint would get snarky.

But yet...the regulars kept coming back day in and day out and handing out that same advice day in and day out. 

The Knot hasn't done anything with the format of the community to dissuade the repetitive posting of these topics.  Trolls still post on a regular basis.  Spam is still posted on a regular basis.

New memberships are simply approved and new users dropped into a vast community without so much as a clue where to start, what is/isn't appropriate or where they can find answers to some of the most commonly asked questions/topics that come across the board. 

There could easily be "tacked" or "sticky" posts at the top of forums such as Etiquette that direct new members to the dozens of threads on the most common topics.  There could be active participants IN the community from The Knot directing new members to information so that the very same repetitive and potentially heated topics didn't come up over and over and over again.

But there hasn't been.  At least not that I've seen.

Instead, The Knot Gods have been less and less available on the boards.  The direction they've given to membership has been unclear and often contradictory.   They've left the "community" with a complete lack of leadership.   And then when things got heated or tough...they seem to turn around and point at the very members that they've effectively relied upon to "run" the community. 

It strikes me as ineffective and seems as though the people running this site now are highly inexperienced with social networking communities. 

And then, to top it off?  The Knot goes against the very TOS that it has set forth in its communities and bans members without warning?  Without following the very rules it set forth? 

That doesn't instill confidence in membership.  It doesn't make "The Knot Community" feel like a  place where you could really enjoy and be honest about being a bride.  It makes me, as a user, afraid to speak ANY opinion for fear I'll lose access to my account, my wedding website, etc.

And I don't think I'm the only person that feels this way.

MobKaz

Is this the new and improved chatter for which you are hoping?

http://forums.theknot.com/discussion/990127/favour-etiquette#latest

Ms. Roney.....in your open letter to the "community", you stated.....

"We hope that you, the loyal members of our incredible community will support us in our effort to protect the world’s best place to be a bride."

With the "advice" currently being shared on this thread, you may have indeed succeeded in protecting the bride, but you are now obliterating any and all "protection" for the guest at these entitled debacles.  And, in reading these posts for almost 4 years now, it is very clear that this community is not, and should not, be only for and about THE BRIDE.  Advice has been asked and given from the perspective of the wedding party, the MOB and MOG, and even the FI on occasion.  

elizabethriley

TXKristan said:

I know I'll be the only one saying this, but I honestly don't care.

I have been absent from this site for several months because of the people you described.  It made the site no fun and I was tired of how they treated people (including me).  I still have no motivation to come back, but am glad to hear that the staff is working to take this site back.

LOLOL. Clearly you have a shitty memory, since you have pages and pages of posts from the past few months. 

I have no trouble calling someone a bigot if they are one. And someone who would choose to discriminate based on gender fits that bill. Marriage (which was a social contract before it was ever co-opted by the Catholic Church as a sacrament, btw, so there goes your religious argument) is a right given to citizens in this country. You have outright said that you do not support the legal enforcement of this right as it applies to gay couples. How is that not different than telling people you think black people are nice, but you really like having a separate water fountain, or they should probably just go to special schools to get their need for education met? I'll give you a hint: it's not. And yet, if I called that person a bigot, surely you wouldn't object. Calling a spade a spade isn't, and has never been, against the TOS. Yet when it hurts YOUR little feelers, it's obviously mistreatment and forces you to "stay away" from the mean bullies.

But here's a rainbow to sugarcoat your bigotry. I hope it helps! (Although it might not, because teh gahys fucking love rainbows. That's their shit, man.)

TKzilla

Hey everybody!

Remember when we were all angry about what The Knot had done to two prominent members of the forums and we were mostly rallying around that?

Let's get back to that. I don't agree with @TXKristan 's views on gay marriage. We're pretty much polar opposites. But she's always been respectful to me when we've discussed it.

If you haven't actually had a one-on-one discussion WITH her about ANYTHING then maybe you aren't qualified to say shit.

smalfrie19

CourtaniaLynn said:

Hey everybody!

Remember when we were all angry about what The Knot had done to two prominent members of the forums and we were mostly rallying around that?

Let's get back to that. I don't agree with @TXKristan 's views on gay marriage. We're pretty much polar opposites. But she's always been respectful to me when we've discussed it.

If you haven't actually had a one-on-one discussion WITH her about ANYTHING then maybe you aren't qualified to say shit.

How true this is.

keochan

Wow, what a crock of shit. 

vegasgroom

Hmm, if they were truly concerned with brides getting the best wedding experience possible, wouldn't there be staff members moderating, reading and responding to most threads on all forums where a question is posed; kind of like what moderators used to do?  Only reason I can see for not hiring the staff needed to provide such a service is the bottom line; i.e. profit comes before the forum.  That being the case, this makes me feel like the open letter really should have just said if you do something that will drive away visitors who may have otherwise bought some of our Knot Store items or clicked on a Knot advertiser banner ad, we'll ban you.

Anyway; a real world example for Carley to consider when deciding how useful rainbows and puppies forums are....  My wife originally got on this site to ask opinions on dropping two of her bridesmaids.  Know what advice she got on E?  She was told that's a horrible idea, it will make things awkward, the two people in question will not be friends any longer, mutual friends of her and those two BM's would feel awkward.  She didn't listen to the advice she got and did it anyway.  Know what happened?  It was awkward having one of the two dismissed BM's at our wedding, the other didn't come, she hasn't spoken to either of them since, we cant hang out with mutual friends if both either of those girls and my wife are going to be present.  So imagine that, 'mean' advice was 100% accurate.  Yes, she did ignore the advice she was given, but the advice was correct.  Others may not have ignored it, and that would have avoided making a bad situation worse thanks to this forum.

Know what advice she'd probably have been giving posting the same question on Wedding Bee, or this forum if all the 'mean' people are banned?  Oh that's a great idea, it's your big day, you stay strong and do whatever you want girl, those girls will understand and you'll still be great friends afterward, in fact they'll probably give you even more gifts for alleviating them of all those responsibilities they would have had as your BM's.  Then it would turn out completely wrong.  Hopefully that's not the kind of forum the powers that be want to see, because it's a horrible one giving out horrible advice in the interest of making everyone feel great temporarily; kind of like smoking crack.

TKzilla

smalfrie19 said:

CourtaniaLynn said:

Hey everybody!

Remember when we were all angry about what The Knot had done to two prominent members of the forums and we were mostly rallying around that?

Let's get back to that. I don't agree with @TXKristan 's views on gay marriage. We're pretty much polar opposites. But she's always been respectful to me when we've discussed it.

If you haven't actually had a one-on-one discussion WITH her about ANYTHING then maybe you aren't qualified to say shit.

How true this is.

Of all the people I hoped would agree with me, you weren't on the list.

MrsMack10612

@Liatris2010 - you've been around long enough to know, reason has no place here.

elizabethriley

CourtaniaLynn said:

Hey everybody!

Remember when we were all angry about what The Knot had done to two prominent members of the forums and we were mostly rallying around that?

Let's get back to that. I don't agree with @TXKristan 's views on gay marriage. We're pretty much polar opposites. But she's always been respectful to me when we've discussed it.

If you haven't actually had a one-on-one discussion WITH her about ANYTHING then maybe you aren't qualified to say shit.

Was this geared toward me? If so, I may not have exchanged PMs with her on the subject, but I have participated in threads that included her about it. I haven't assumed anything about her position. I'm merely taking her actual words at face value and choosing to accept that she means them. Because even though I disagree with her, I do believe she can communicate like an adult. Also, it's really not up to you to decide who is qualified to have opinions about other posters, or what those opinions are allowed to be.

And as for this thread being about rallying around Stage and Linger, I agree that their banning was shitty, and it was made worse by the even shittier way that was handled. But does anyone honestly think that these threads (because there are many, many out there) are actually going to make the KGs turn around and go, "oh sorry, yeah that was messed up of us"? Because I think posting this letter from the founder of the company demonstrates pretty well that they don't actually care about what the most vocal posters want as long as the newbs are happy with the advice they get here.

TKzilla

elizabethriley said:

CourtaniaLynn said:

Hey everybody!

Remember when we were all angry about what The Knot had done to two prominent members of the forums and we were mostly rallying around that?

Let's get back to that. I don't agree with @TXKristan 's views on gay marriage. We're pretty much polar opposites. But she's always been respectful to me when we've discussed it.

If you haven't actually had a one-on-one discussion WITH her about ANYTHING then maybe you aren't qualified to say shit.

Was this geared toward me? If so, I may not have exchanged PMs with her on the subject, but I have participated in threads that included her about it. I haven't assumed anything about her position. I'm merely taking her actual words at face value and choosing to accept that she means them. Because even though I disagree with her, I do believe she can communicate like an adult. Also, it's really not up to you to decide who is qualified to have opinions about other posters, or what those opinions are allowed to be.

And as for this thread being about rallying around Stage and Linger, I agree that their banning was shitty, and it was made worse by the even shittier way that was handled. But does anyone honestly think that these threads (because there are many, many out there) are actually going to make the KGs turn around and go, "oh sorry, yeah that was messed up of us"? Because I think posting this letter from the founder of the company demonstrates pretty well that they don't actually care about what the most vocal posters want as long as the newbs are happy with the advice they get here.

Face value - you're the one who said you're a lurker, not someone who actively engages in threads with the person you're putting down.

My point is: talking shit about TXKristan is counterproductive, especially when she has drastically reduced her participation on this site. She used to post on a lot of boards here but seems to now stick to the Catholic Weddings board. Talk about the people who did actually complain to the KGs - especially those who did so without ever trying to talk to the banned users themselves. Those people are the ones people should be angry with. 

Do I have the right to tell you what you're qualified to post about? Probably not. But I am going to stand up for my friend when some random poster jumps on the bandwagon to bash her.

TKzilla

@Elizabethriley - just went back and read this thread again and realized you were not the one who claimed to be a lurker. My apologies. Your own post history does make it hard to believe you've had a lot of interaction with @txkristan though.

keochan

I will also be telling all my engaged friends to stay away from this site.

astimmel

I started participating in discussions specifically for the unadulterated honesty that these members provided. When I first joined I was easily offended and hurt, and I took everything personally. I didn't have the confidence to stand up for myself, and if it wasn't for these ladies I would have shelled out an extra $300 when I was MOH, instead of being able to simply say "I can't afford it." Thanks to the strong women here, including the ones who were banned, I now have a respectable pair of cajones and a "polite spine."

Their responses may have seemed tough because they didn't coddle the people asking questions, and apparently that automatically makes them mean. And I know that because I used to think like that.

Have you considered that you misread the tone of their responses? I could be having sex as I type this, and the text on your screen wouldn't let on that I was screaming with pleasure. I could be getting robbed at gunpoint, and you couldn't know the fear I would be feeling. Text is text. And by the way, the orgasm I just had was amazing.  If you're going to ask strangers on the Internet for advice, you have to remember that a lack of emoticons and "lols" doesn't mean someone is typing in a rude tone. And in case you're curious, I'm actually quite calm as I write this.

Lastly, I am beyond disgusted with your egregious misuse of the term "bully." The people who called these women bullies have basically pissed on the pain and suffering of the true victims of bullying.

elizabethriley

CourtaniaLynn said:

@Elizabethriley - just went back and read this thread again and realized you were not the one who claimed to be a lurker. My apologies. Your own post history does make it hard to believe you've had a lot of interaction with @txkristan though.

I don't post a lot, and I don't remember if I ever responded directly to Kristan in a thread or just others in threads where she also participated on this topic. I lost a lot of my posts in the changeover (thank, TK tech team, you're awesome!), so unfortunately my post history is spotty. I can see why it looks like I'm just some random noob who's coming out of nowhere, but I've been lurking and posting here and there for a couple years.

And you're welcome to defend anyone you want, I have no problem with that. I'm just giving my own opinion on a topic that was brought up in this thread. We both know this isn't the first thread that's gotten derailed or had multiple conversations going at once.

TKzilla

elizabethriley said:

CourtaniaLynn said:

@Elizabethriley - just went back and read this thread again and realized you were not the one who claimed to be a lurker. My apologies. Your own post history does make it hard to believe you've had a lot of interaction with @txkristan though.

I don't post a lot, and I don't remember if I ever responded directly to Kristan in a thread or just others in threads where she also participated on this topic. I lost a lot of my posts in the changeover (thank, TK tech team, you're awesome!), so unfortunately my post history is spotty. I can see why it looks like I'm just some random noob who's coming out of nowhere, but I've been lurking and posting here and there for a couple years.

And you're welcome to defend anyone you want, I have no problem with that. I'm just giving my own opinion on a topic that was brought up in this thread. We both know this isn't the first thread that's gotten derailed or had multiple conversations going at once.

Damn, I don't know how I missed this (and like four or five responses above it)

I knew once I said my bit for Kristan that I was going to get flamed, and proboards are going to be hell for me come Friday for FFF. Threads absolutely get derailed but while we're all sitting here talking shit about Kristan (who barely posts any more, who deleted her account today) for an opinion she shared four months ago, the KGs are sitting back grateful the spotlight is no longer on them. We can all sit here and tear each other to shreds for some nonsense or we can remember who we're really pissed at.

elizabethriley

CourtaniaLynn said:

elizabethriley said:

CourtaniaLynn said:

@Elizabethriley - just went back and read this thread again and realized you were not the one who claimed to be a lurker. My apologies. Your own post history does make it hard to believe you've had a lot of interaction with @txkristan though.

I don't post a lot, and I don't remember if I ever responded directly to Kristan in a thread or just others in threads where she also participated on this topic. I lost a lot of my posts in the changeover (thank, TK tech team, you're awesome!), so unfortunately my post history is spotty. I can see why it looks like I'm just some random noob who's coming out of nowhere, but I've been lurking and posting here and there for a couple years.

And you're welcome to defend anyone you want, I have no problem with that. I'm just giving my own opinion on a topic that was brought up in this thread. We both know this isn't the first thread that's gotten derailed or had multiple conversations going at once.

Damn, I don't know how I missed this (and like four or five responses above it)

I knew once I said my bit for Kristan that I was going to get flamed, and proboards are going to be hell for me come Friday for FFF. Threads absolutely get derailed but while we're all sitting here talking shit about Kristan (who barely posts any more, who deleted her account today) for an opinion she shared four months ago, the KGs are sitting back grateful the spotlight is no longer on them. We can all sit here and tear each other to shreds for some nonsense or we can remember who we're really pissed at.

But that's just the thing, I'm not pissed at anyone, you're just projecting your agenda to keep the gods' attention on this matter to everyone else who's upset by what happened. I don't think continually harping at this point is going to do anything, because the KGs have made it very clear through stock responses and this letter from Carley that being pissed isn't going to accomplish anything. So why not respond to someone who may actually be gotten through to? At this point, I don't really care about TK or the gods. I've gotten all the wedding advice I could ever need already, and now with the proboards I can still have the community I liked and stuck around for without have to worry about being too "mean" or getting banned, which is one of the reasons I didn't post here often in the first place. 

So by all means, keep creating or dragging out threads demanding answers from people who don't want to respond, but don't think that everyone shares that objective.

ETA (just noticed this line): I'm sorry that you think that standing up for equal rights is "some nonsense," but it actually is a big deal to me. So yeah, that trumps petty drama with some mysterious forum managers.