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Reception Ideas

father daughter dance :(

the only thing on my mind was the first dance not the father daughter dance. The only person I ever wanted to walk me down the aisle was my grandfather and he passed away a year ago. So in his place my mom will be walking me down the Aisle.... but I was thinking for the father daughter dance if I should then dance with my grandmother (my grandfathers wife) and have a slide show of pictures of me and my grandfather in the background a great song to do the dance to would be Luther Vandros Dance with my father.... I think it would be a great tribute to him bcuz everyone knows how close we were but would it be too much?
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Re: father daughter dance :(

  • Talk to your mom and grandmother about their feelings for this. My main concern is that it might bring up lots of emotions for all of you during the dance and then turn things sad which I'm guessing is not what he would have wanted for you on your special day. It's ok to skip this tradition.
  • the only thing on my mind was the first dance not the father daughter dance. The only person I ever wanted to walk me down the aisle was my grandfather and he passed away a year ago. So in his place my mom will be walking me down the Aisle.... but I was thinking for the father daughter dance if I should then dance with my grandmother (my grandfathers wife) and have a slide show of pictures of me and my grandfather in the background a great song to do the dance to would be Luther Vandros Dance with my father.... I think it would be a great tribute to him bcuz everyone knows how close we were but would it be too much?


    It would be too much.

    My father is deceased, so we just skipped these dances. They're not required.

    doeydoSTARMOON44
  • My thought is, my dad was more deserving of a father/daughter dance than any other man I know and his passing doesn't make him any less deserving. That being said, I'll be playing a slideshow of pictures of me and my dad, set to the song that I always planned to do our father/daughter dance to. I just can't imagine depriving him of that moment on my day, even though he's technically no longer with us.
    Tchavon1984
  • My thought is, my dad was more deserving of a father/daughter dance than any other man I know and his passing doesn't make him any less deserving. That being said, I'll be playing a slideshow of pictures of me and my dad, set to the song that I always planned to do our father/daughter dance to. I just can't imagine depriving him of that moment on my day, even though he's technically no longer with us.

    Oh gosh, please don't.

    This is going to be such a sad moment for your guests.

    I'm sorry your dad is deceased, mine is too, but this is just not the correct approach.


     

    melbelleupdoeydoKeptInStitchesSTARMOON44
  • itzMS said:
    My thought is, my dad was more deserving of a father/daughter dance than any other man I know and his passing doesn't make him any less deserving. That being said, I'll be playing a slideshow of pictures of me and my dad, set to the song that I always planned to do our father/daughter dance to. I just can't imagine depriving him of that moment on my day, even though he's technically no longer with us.

    Oh gosh, please don't.

    This is going to be such a sad moment for your guests.

    I'm sorry your dad is deceased, mine is too, but this is just not the correct approach.


     


    I appreciate that it wasn't the correct approach for you and your family and friends, but it is the right approach for me and my family and friends. Sure, people will cry and they'll also laugh at some of the pictures and then we'll move on with our night. But it's important for me, my friends, and my family to know that my dad still got his moment.
    Tchavon1984
  • jenniferursjenniferurs member
    Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its 100 Comments Name Dropper
    edited September 2013
    JoanE2012 said:
    itzMS said:
    My thought is, my dad was more deserving of a father/daughter dance than any other man I know and his passing doesn't make him any less deserving. That being said, I'll be playing a slideshow of pictures of me and my dad, set to the song that I always planned to do our father/daughter dance to. I just can't imagine depriving him of that moment on my day, even though he's technically no longer with us.

    Oh gosh, please don't.

    This is going to be such a sad moment for your guests.

    I'm sorry your dad is deceased, mine is too, but this is just not the correct approach.


     


    I agree.  Why in the world do you want people crying at your wedding?  I'm sorry your father has passd, but your marriage should be a joyous celebration, not a memorial to your father.  There are other, much less discreet, ways you can honor your father.  Maybe wrap one of his hankerchiefs around your bouquet.  Or wear a locket with his photo. 

    No one you know is going to tell you it's a bad idea.  They don't want to hurt your feelings with such a sensitive topic.  That's why you have people here who have no vested interest in your wedding tell you when something is inappropriate.  I would strongly reconsider....it's not appropriate in any situation.


    We'll agree to disagree. My friends and family members have been the one to suggest doing it; I haven't come to them with the suggestion, so it's not like they're trying to preserve my feelings (I was originally going to dance with my future FIL instead). Some families and groups of friends are just different from others. Mine don't happen to be incredibly sensitive, so they're not going to feel like the night has been ruined because they've seen pictures of my father. They appreciate the pictures and take pleasure in seeing him in life through photography. If you and your friends and family members are different, I can respect that, but I don't understand the insistence on telling other people what is right and wrong for them and theirs. We're all different and your wedding day is about doing the things that speak to you and your guests; not the guests of other weddings.
    [Deleted User]
  • JoanE2012JoanE2012 Exit 21 (Jersey!) member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 5 Answers
    JoanE2012 said:
    itzMS said:
    My thought is, my dad was more deserving of a father/daughter dance than any other man I know and his passing doesn't make him any less deserving. That being said, I'll be playing a slideshow of pictures of me and my dad, set to the song that I always planned to do our father/daughter dance to. I just can't imagine depriving him of that moment on my day, even though he's technically no longer with us.

    Oh gosh, please don't.

    This is going to be such a sad moment for your guests.

    I'm sorry your dad is deceased, mine is too, but this is just not the correct approach.


     


    I agree.  Why in the world do you want people crying at your wedding?  I'm sorry your father has passd, but your marriage should be a joyous celebration, not a memorial to your father.  There are other, much less discreet, ways you can honor your father.  Maybe wrap one of his hankerchiefs around your bouquet.  Or wear a locket with his photo. 

    No one you know is going to tell you it's a bad idea.  They don't want to hurt your feelings with such a sensitive topic.  That's why you have people here who have no vested interest in your wedding tell you when something is inappropriate.  I would strongly reconsider....it's not appropriate in any situation.


    We'll agree to disagree. My friends and family members have been the one to suggest doing it; I haven't come to them with the suggestion, so it's not like they're trying to preserve my feelings (I was originally going to dance with my future FIL instead). Some families and groups of friends are just different from others. Mine don't happen to be incredibly sensitive, so they're not going to feel like the night has been ruined because they've seen pictures of my father. They appreciate the pictures and take pleasure in seeing him in life through photography. If you and your friends and family members are different, I can respect that, but I don't understand the insistence on telling other people what is right and wrong for them and theirs. We're all different and your wedding day is about doing the things that speak to you and your guests; not the guests of other weddings.

    It's not just about the sensitivity of guests.  It's the fact that they are attending a wedding, not a funeral.  

    Dreamergirl8812doeydoKeptInStitchesSTARMOON44
  • What Joan said.

    Not to mention, your father isn't the one getting married. The focus should be on you and your FI.

     

    Also, I find it hard to believe that family AND friends all came to you and suggested making a slideshow of your dad. Every one of my close family and friends know my dad has passed, and none suggested a thing.

    JoanE2012doeydoKeptInStitchesmanateehugger
  • itzMS said:

    What Joan said.

    Not to mention, your father isn't the one getting married. The focus should be on you and your FI.

     

    Also, I find it hard to believe that family AND friends all came to you and suggested making a slideshow of your dad. Every one of my close family and friends know my dad has passed, and none suggested a thing.

    Not every single one obviously, but a solid number. Then again, my dad just passed within the last year, so it's a recent thing and on everyone's minds. But yeah, about 15 or so family members and friends suggested I do the dance anyway and just show pictures.
  • There seems to be two different conversations here.  1)  Tchavon1984 - your question is confusing.  You always wanted your Grandfather to walk you down the aisle, but will have your Mom since Grandpa passed.  You say first you wanted you/Grandpa to do the first dance together, then you say you want to have you/Grandma do the father/daugther dance with a slide show in the back ground of Grandpa.  First dance, father/daughter dance..  these are typically two different dances, and I can't tell if your Father is in the mix here. 

    2)  jenniferurs - What you are planning sounds really, really hard and emotionally draining for you and every guest there (whether they had a personal relationship with him or not).  Will everyone just be sitting there watching the screen while you cry?  Using the argument this dance isn't required isn't the point.  You want to do something big to honor your Dad.  I don't know how you'll work this so you don't set the entire place on a crying jag, but personally I think you should do what you want.  I have two daughters (one to be married next year).  I'm trying to imagine what they would do if their father wasn't here to do those simple things they've imagined in their heads they would do together on this special day.  The worst thing would to be to feel years from now you didn't follow your heart.   

    jenniferursSTARMOON44
  • gm5 said:

    There seems to be two different conversations here.  1)  Tchavon1984 - your question is confusing.  You always wanted your Grandfather to walk you down the aisle, but will have your Mom since Grandpa passed.  You say first you wanted you/Grandpa to do the first dance together, then you say you want to have you/Grandma do the father/daugther dance with a slide show in the back ground of Grandpa.  First dance, father/daughter dance..  these are typically two different dances, and I can't tell if your Father is in the mix here. 

    2)  jenniferurs - What you are planning sounds really, really hard and emotionally draining for you and every guest there (whether they had a personal relationship with him or not).  Will everyone just be sitting there watching the screen while you cry?  Using the argument this dance isn't required isn't the point.  You want to do something big to honor your Dad.  I don't know how you'll work this so you don't set the entire place on a crying jag, but personally I think you should do what you want.  I have two daughters (one to be married next year).  I'm trying to imagine what they would do if their father wasn't here to do those simple things they've imagined in their heads they would do together on this special day.  The worst thing would to be to feel years from now you didn't follow your heart.   


    Your last line exemplifies exactly how I feel. I feel I need to follow my heart and follow the heart of others who were close to him. In the end, as I've mentioned in other posts, my friends aren't exactly the emotional type (pretty much entirely 20 something year old guys), so no one but those who knew him will really be affected by the display. There are only about 6 people who will be in attendance that really had any kind of personal relationship with him and those are 6 of the people who suggested I do this very thing. That said, if it's right for those who knew him, it's good enough for me, and while it'll definitely be an emotional moment for me, I don't think emotional moments are a bad thing. In the end, I know I'd have an emotional moment whether I played the slideshow or not. I've cried during the father/daughter dance of every wedding I've attended since my dad passed (4 in total) and I know I'd have the same reaction watching my FI dance with my FMIL, knowing I wasn't having a moment of my own with my dad. This way, I get to have that moment still and I know those who knew him will appreciate it.
  • Tchavon1984Tchavon1984 member
    100 Comments 100 Love Its Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited September 2013
    no I said that all I was thinkin about was the first dance between my FI and I and forgot about the father daughter dance.... originally if my grandad were here He'd be walking me down the aisle and doing the dance with me but since he's no longer with us my mom will walk me down... and I was throwing out the idea of having my grandmother (my grandfathers wife) do the dance with me and have a slide show of him in the background for that moment.... just like jenniferurs it's not to make my wedding about him its just 2 minutes of my wedding day deticated to him.... ppl cry at weddings so I dont see why ppl keep saying do you want ur gst to cry or get sad... 2 minutes out of a day to honor someone you love wont ruin an entire wedding in my eyes... and p.s no my Father is not in the picture he made a choice not to be
  • doeydodoeydo Southwestern Ontario member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Third Anniversary 5 Answers
    There's a difference between happy tears and mournful, sad tears.
    image
    STARMOON44
  • not comparing my wedding to a baseball game but its the best I can come up with lol but say you went to a baseball game and one of the players had passed and they honored him with a moment of silence and put a pic up of him on the screen... does that ruin the game or make the entire game sad no just that moment to honor someone and you keep it moving yes its sad but its not like you're making the entire day about that person
  • not comparing my wedding to a baseball game but its the best I can come up with lol but say you went to a baseball game and one of the players had passed and they honored him with a moment of silence and put a pic up of him on the screen... does that ruin the game or make the entire game sad no just that moment to honor someone and you keep it moving yes its sad but its not like you're making the entire day about that person

    This. It's a relatively small moment of an otherwise long day. It's not going to change the overall mood of the affair.
  • Jenn its your day - You do what you want, its not these other peoples wedding.
  • JoanE2012JoanE2012 Exit 21 (Jersey!) member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 5 Answers
    MrShoe said:
    Jenn its your day - You do what you want, its not these other peoples wedding.
    As soon as you invite guests, it's no longer your day.  If you want it all about you, elope.
    STARMOON44manateehugger
  •  

    JoanE2012 said:
    As soon as you invite guests, it's no longer your day.  If you want it all about you, elope.
    what are you serious Joan!!!! when you refer to your wedding is it our wedding day or my guest and I's wedding day? are you exchanging rings from every single one of ur guest or just ur future husband... your wedding day is your wedding day no one elses.... theyre invited to join in on your day if theres something they dont like they dont have to come!!!! ur still gonna have ur day
  • JoanE2012JoanE2012 Exit 21 (Jersey!) member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 5 Answers
    edited September 2013

     

    JoanE2012 said:
    As soon as you invite guests, it's no longer your day.  If you want it all about you, elope.
    what are you serious Joan!!!! when you refer to your wedding is it our wedding day or my guest and I's wedding day? are you exchanging rings from every single one of ur guest or just ur future husband... your wedding day is your wedding day no one elses.... theyre invited to join in on your day if theres something they dont like they dont have to come!!!! ur still gonna have ur day
    I'm quite serious!  Yes, you are marrying your FI.  But once you invite guests, you become a host.  You must host your guests properly and make sure they are comfortable.  If I were attending a wedding, I would not be comfortable with a slideshow of photos from someone who died and having people around me crying.  That would be awful.  I'm there to attend a joyous celebration, not a memorial.

    The "but it's my day!" mentality is just selfish and rude and shows a lack of maturity.  
    itzMSSTARMOON44manateehuggerDreamergirl8812
  • JoanE2012 said:
    I'm quite serious!  Yes, you are marrying your FI.  But once you invite guests, you become a host.  You must host your guests properly and make sure they are comfortable.  If I were attending a wedding, I would not be comfortable with a slideshow of photos from someone who died and having people around me crying.  That would be awful.  I'm there to attend a joyous celebration, not a memorial.

    The "but it's my day!" mentality is just selfish and rude and shows a lack of maturity.  
    well I guess that makes me selfish as H*ll... there is no way to please each and every person at ur wedding thats like changing a centerpiece on Marias Table bcuz she doesnt like roses or ordering crabs bcuz Carlos doesnt like Chicken... if it makes you uncomfortable you have two feet use them and walk out for a moment...  its not that big of a deal... and other then you I dont know one bride who doesnt have an it's my day mantality for one thing or another
  • JoanE2012JoanE2012 Exit 21 (Jersey!) member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 5 Answers
    edited September 2013
    JoanE2012 said:
    I'm quite serious!  Yes, you are marrying your FI.  But once you invite guests, you become a host.  You must host your guests properly and make sure they are comfortable.  If I were attending a wedding, I would not be comfortable with a slideshow of photos from someone who died and having people around me crying.  That would be awful.  I'm there to attend a joyous celebration, not a memorial.

    The "but it's my day!" mentality is just selfish and rude and shows a lack of maturity.  
    well I guess that makes me selfish as H*ll... there is no way to please each and every person at ur wedding thats like changing a centerpiece on Marias Table bcuz she doesnt like roses or ordering crabs bcuz Carlos doesnt like Chicken... if it makes you uncomfortable you have two feet use them and walk out for a moment...  its not that big of a deal... and other then you I dont know one bride who doesnt have an it's my day mantality for one thing or another
    Ok, so what exactly was the point of your original post then if you planned on doing it anyway and don't really care about opinions?  
    STARMOON44
  • If u havent noticed I posted this almost a week ago and Ive had time to make my mind up about it.... I dont like the way ppl are being so judgmental... if its something you wouldnt do ok cool that was your wedding... but ppl were beating up on Jennifer about her choice if she said its what she wants to do ok cool leave it alone but dont act like ur the God of weddings and tell a person their choice is wrong or criticize them... you said ur opinion keep it moving why argue a point when someone already has their mind made up... anyways over it I have to much to do for "my wedding day" to go back and forth about one thing
  • RedJacks25RedJacks25 member
    500 Love Its 100 Comments First Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited September 2013
    As someone who literally always has to leave to "go to the bathroom" during the father/daughter dance at weddings because witnessing something I will never have upsets me so much, I would be an absolute wreck at a wedding with a slideshow of a deceased father.

    I've gotten in the rhythm of knowing when to expect the dance, and I will get up quietly, leave during it, and come back like 5 minutes later. If I was caught off-guard with a slideshow memorializing your deceased father, in all honesty, I'd probably leave the wedding and not come back. Those emotions are not something I can come back from once I get there.

    For me, it's been 8 years, but I've realized that there are just certain things that are a trigger to bringing all of the emotions back, and that would definitely be one of them.


    ETA: And you're only taking into account the few people who knew your father, saying that it won't affect all of your guests. You insist it will only affect 6 of your guests? You're completely ignoring the feelings of any of your other guests who also have deceased fathers or sick fathers or absent fathers, et cetera. You can't know how every.single.person is going to react to your slideshow, whether they knew your dad or not.
    Wedding Countdown Ticker
    STARMOON44
  • Jen4948Jen4948 Houston member
    10000 Comments Seventh Anniversary 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    edited September 2013
    If u havent noticed I posted this almost a week ago and Ive had time to make my mind up about it.... I dont like the way ppl are being so judgmental... if its something you wouldnt do ok cool that was your wedding... but ppl were beating up on Jennifer about her choice if she said its what she wants to do ok cool leave it alone but dont act like ur the God of weddings and tell a person their choice is wrong or criticize them... you said ur opinion keep it moving why argue a point when someone already has their mind made up... anyways over it I have to much to do for "my wedding day" to go back and forth about one thing
    Oh please.

    Look, this is a forum, and by posting here, you ask for opinions and we're going to give them.  We aren't going to validate bad ideas.  Grow up and lose the "don't act like you're the God of weddings" crap.

    And another thing: Joan is 100% correct.  The instant you involve a single other person in your wedding, it is no longer YOUR wedding alone for you and you alone to decide what to do with.  If that's what you want, elope.  But if you involve anyone else in any other capacity, then their feelings need to be taken into consideration.  Otherwise, you rightly earn yourself the title of "bridezilla." 

    Whether or not people want to look at slideshows of deceased people at weddings falls into this category.  And no: it isn't a good idea to evoke sadness and grief at what should be a happy occasion, let alone invite people to it and make them sit through it.  Nobody at your wedding may say so, but they may well be very uncomfortable and unhappy sitting through a slideshow or other very blatant reminders of death and loss.  The feelings of your guests are something you need to take into account.  If you don't, then you don't belong here. 
    JoanE2012STARMOON44RebeccaB88
  • jenniferursjenniferurs member
    Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its 100 Comments Name Dropper
    edited September 2013

    For those who say it's selfish of a bride or groom to want to honor their loved one in the way they're most comfortable, how is it any less selfish for a guest to say that their comfort should supersede that of the bride and groom's and that the bride and groom should only include their deceased loved ones in the ways that said guest finds acceptable?

    Either avenue is technically selfish. Selfish of the bride or groom to do what it is they want at the expense of POSSIBLY upsetting a guest. Or selfish of the guest to expect the bride or groom not to honor their loved one in the way they feel comfortable just so that they can ensure their own comfort. I'm not sure how the latter is any less selfish than the former. So while I've done all I can to ensure that my guests have a good time, I think I'll be "selfish" in this one instance if it means including my father in the way I feel I need to and looking back with no regrets.

    Like I said, everyone is different. If you have the type of friends and family members that would become overwhelmed by such a display, by all means, do not include it. But my group of friends and family are not like that. What is right for us may not be right for someone else and vice versa. In the end, all we're trying to do in the name of "etiquette" is ensure that our friends and family have a good time. What that looks like is going to vary widely from person to person, family to family, and friend group to friend group, based on the SPECIFIC people involved and their personality types. This isn't a one size fits all equation. Some people would be upset to see a tribute to the bride's deceased father and some would be upset to not see a tribute to the bride's deceased father. No two people are exactly alike and the art of catering to the people that matter the most is going to look different for different sets of people.

    In the end, I would never want someone NOT to do something to honor their father, just because it might upset me in thinking about mine. I am a guest and I am there to observe. I am not there to dictate or take away from their day in any way. I would never want a bride or groom not to honor their loved one in the way they wanted in order to accommodate me. I am fine being uncomfortable if it means they are not.

    photokittyTchavon1984
  • Jen4948Jen4948 Houston member
    10000 Comments Seventh Anniversary 500 Love Its 25 Answers

    For those who say it's selfish of a bride or groom to want to honor their loved one in the way they're most comfortable, how is it any less selfish for a guest to say that their comfort should supersede that of the bride and groom's and that the bride and groom should only include their deceased loved ones in the ways that said guest finds acceptable?

    Either avenue is technically selfish. Selfish of the bride or groom to do what it is they want at the expense of POSSIBLY upsetting a guest. Or selfish of the guest to expect the bride or groom not to honor their loved one in the way they feel comfortable just so that they can ensure their own comfort. I'm not sure how the latter is any less selfish than the former. So while I've done all I can to ensure that my guests have a good time, I think I'll be "selfish" in this one instance if it means including my father in the way I feel I need to and looking back with no regrets.

    Like I said, everyone is different. If you have the type of friends and family members that would become overwhelmed by such a display, by all means, do not include it. But my group of friends and family are not like that. What is right for us may not be right for someone else and vice versa. In the end, all we're trying to do in the name of "etiquette" is ensure that our friends and family have a good time. What that looks like is going to vary widely from person to person, family to family, and friend group to friend group, based on the SPECIFIC people involved and their personality types. This isn't a one size fits all equation. Some people would be upset to see a tribute to the bride's deceased father and some would be upset to not see a tribute to the bride's deceased father. No two people are exactly like and the art of catering to the people on your day that matter the most is going to look different for different sets of people.

    In the end, I would never want someone NOT to do something to honor their father, just because it might upset me in thinking about mine. I am a guest and I am there to observe. I am not there to dictate or take away from their day in any way. I would never want a bride or groom not to honor their loved one in the way they wanted in order to accommodate me. I am fine being uncomfortable if it means they are not.

    This, jenniferurs, is what etiquette is about.

    It is about providing for the needs and comfort of the people you interact with-not just your own.  To consider only your own needs is selfish and rude and thus violates etiquette.  The regulars here in this forum are going to call that to the attention of whoever proposes it.  It's not just our opinion.  So lose the "it's your opinion; we're all entitled to different opinions."  Not when it comes to etiquette.  We all owe each other the duty not to be rude to each other and not to take only our own feelings and wishes into account when we plan our weddings.  Otherwise, we might as well all just elope.  That's the only polite way you can have "YOUR DAY" with nobody else's feelings and needs considered and planned for-by being hermits.
  • I never said that we're all entitled to our own opinions. I said that catering to the needs of your guests is going to look different from family to family and friend group to friend group. What may be rude towards one is not necessarily rude towards another. In the end, people have to accept that not all social circles are the same. What upsets one person is not going to upset another. "Etiquette" is about ensuring that your particular group is not adversely affected; not ensuring that some random group of people that you don't know and will not be inviting to your wedding is happy.
    photokitty
  • Jen4948Jen4948 Houston member
    10000 Comments Seventh Anniversary 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    edited September 2013
    I never said that we're all entitled to our own opinions. I said that catering to the needs of your guests is going to look different from family to family and friend group to friend group. What may be rude towards one is not necessarily rude towards another. In the end, people have to accept that not all social circles are the same. What upsets one person is not going to upset another. "Etiquette" is about ensuring that your particular group is not adversely affected; not ensuring that some random group of people that you don't know and will not be inviting to your wedding is happy.
    Not true at all.  Etiquette is not just for one particular group of people.  And if you post about rudeness or discuss it with other people, including those who aren't in your particular circle of friends, they're going to point it out to you.  You have no right to expect everyone to bow down and pat you on the head and approve of everything you do because you're a bride-or for that matter, any reason.

    Jenniferurs, you've been arguing this ever since you joined recently and it just doesn't fly.  Sorry, but you do owe everyone you invite to your wedding the duty of making sure they are comfortable.

    Not only that, but there are some times and places when remembering the deceased in certain ways is not appropriate, because grief and loss are out of place.  Weddings are among them.

    Stop arguing this because your arguments are not true and don't work, and etiquette is not going to support you.  It's not just opinion here.
    RedJacks25
  • RedJacks25RedJacks25 member
    500 Love Its 100 Comments First Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited September 2013
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