Please Read (especially board regs)

doctabroccoli · August 2011

Hey guys -
Due to some drama on and off-board lately, I feel the need to explain the motivation behind things that I say sometimes as both a poster and a moderator.

Growing up in a very Catholic city and attending Catholic schools K-12, I was surrounded by Catholic friends and family, and that's all I knew. Then I moved to a very non-Catholic city (in comparison) to attend a non-Catholic college and had not a single Catholic friend (besides people I met at Church). Still today, 9 years later, not a single one of my close friends (or even my husband) is Catholic. This has given me an interesting perspective, since many friends and acquaintances over the years have made comments to me regarding Catholics as a group after finding out I was Catholic. Basically, the comments have generally revolved around Catholics being very closed-minded and judgemental of the views and decisions of others. I never really understood what they were saying, because I grew up with some of the nicest and accepting people in the world. It almost made me feel defensive about my faith, because that wasn't the Catholicism I knew at all.

When I first started lurking here, my initial gut reaction was something akin to "OMG, what the heck is this place?" I was excited to find a Catholic Wedding board, but it wasn't at all what I expected it to be. Even as a lifelong Catholic, I was too intimidated to post because it seemed to stark and unwelcoming. It was then that I understood what my friends had been talking about.

Okay, so I know what you're thinking at this point, that I hate you all and am openly bashing you. That is not the case at all. You are all amazing women, and some of you have a memory for Church doctrine that I can merely sit in awe of. But this is where the motivation for my comments comes in.

It's pretty difficult to offend me personally at this point in my life (that's a whole other story), but what does hit a nerve with me are things that could be seen as off-putting to Catholicism as a whole. Things that would further the bad rap our faith seems to have for no good reason........

This is why I have called out certain generalizing or unclear comments from time to time. I see something in them that could be interpreted as something different. I don't do it for myself - I do it for the bajillion lurkers around here, Catholic and non-Catholic.

This place is more than just a message board. It is one of the many global faces of Catholicism. We want it to be welcoming to everyone who needs assistance. It's true that it's difficult to not offend at least someone at some point in our lives, but we are representing the Catholic faith here, and we should do our best to ensure we put our best foot forward in how we compose our posts. There is no emotion associated with our words like in real life. All we have is what we see typed on the page, and that can lead to misunderstandings if we're not careful. And since this isn't just a random subject board but rather a board for an entire religion (and its many subsets), these kinds of things can have a much larger effect both within and outside of the faith.

That ended up way longer than I wanted it to be. I hope you all understand what I was trying to say. Please, please don't ever feel personally attacked if I call you out on a comment for some reason. I'm not doing it to be a b!tch, I promise. I'm merely trying to get more clarity from the conversation. It would be really upsetting to me if someone formed an incorrect opinion of Catholicism from reading this board. And please do continue to post your opinions on things. I would certainly not want anyone to feel uncomfortable posting their opinion. Just be clear that you're speaking for yourself, and yourself only. Explaining where you're coming from is always a good thing too

.

Okay, I'm gonna shut up now. And if this all makes no sense, then I sincerely apologize. I just felt like I needed to get this off my chest.

*Suits up for the backlash*

mica178 · August 2011

Fantastic post, docta. I'll try to behave myself moving forward.

Resa77 · August 2011

I really respect this. It's not always easy to be the one to call someone out, but I appreciate that you're trying to keep this board as a positive reflection of the Church, rather than something that might detract/deter those interested in the Catholic faith, or possibly Catholics who resent what they see as the judge-y culture in the Church.

chelseamb11 · August 2011

Ditto what Resa said. A lot of times I feel like people on these boards in general will say things that we wouldn't say in real life because we can hide behind the computer screen. It takes a lot of guts to come forward and say what you did (both in the "judgements" per-se and also apologizing for any offences). It's hard to stand up for what you believe in.
Kudos!

zelis42 · August 2011

It's very easy for me to forget that other people might not read my posts the way I intend them to be read. I have a lot of respect for you for standing up for yourself. Kudos and appreciation to you!

lisa89760 · August 2011

Great post!

I really always respect your opinions on this board. It's very interesting to see what you, and everyone else, has to say!

caitriona87 · August 2011

I appreciate this point of view. I really do. I understand the idea of representing Catholicism well on the internet (since Bl. JPII pretty much told us to do that) and I feel like I try to do so. I also will state up front that I don't feel personally called out by this, nor have I at any time in the past (since I haven't really been involved myself in the controversial posts, though I read the board very regularly.)

I just think it also needs to be recognized that some people are simply offended by what the Church teaches (that is, the Truth.) While some may be put off by a "judgmental tone" (which is a term that could use some clarity itself) I've seen plenty of people get up in arms over something that is just a statement of fact. It's a product of our relativist culture where someone can say "The idea or action you propose is wrong because x, y, and z" and the other person hears "You are a worthless horrible person who is going to hell."

I've seen similar issues on other Catholic boards too. Part of it is that the Church is one of the very very few voices which actually says "x is true, y is false" without apology or qualifications. It's not a personal attack. If you see someone about to walk off a cliff, telling them so is not being judgmental, it's being charitable. At that point they are still perfectly free to do as they please, but at least they've had a chance to consider all angles. We can (and should) couch the Truth in the best possible terms that we are able, but sometimes that just isn't enough. I am willing to agree that perhaps there have been cases where charity was lacking here, but there have been many other cases where it wasn't, and the truth still offended somebody.

ETA: again I appreciate you giving your perspective on things and being willing to address things on a larger scale. God bless you.

Jasmine&Rajah · August 2011

I'm ever so slightly baffled by this - my fault, not yours, docta. I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding anything, so here goes. :-)

Of course, we all must do our best to "speak" in a loving and kind tone here, but that should NEVER mean that we are afraid to stand up for the teachings of the Church. Holy Truth should not suffer at the hands of "political correctness." No, we don't want anyone to form incorrect opinions, as docta said - and that includes incorrect opinions about what Catholics really believe, and what we are expected to practice! Explaining our faith (especially to fellow Catholics who may not have been well catechized) is immensely important. It is not judgement - it is mercy and it is love, and we are commanded to do it by the Divine Word of God.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in "real life," I would say everything that I post here. As agape has pointed out, the martyrs of our faith died for love of our Savior, and love of His Presence in the Eucharist. We cannot be ashamed to lift one another up in an effort to glorify Him.

docta, Riss, thanks so much for being great mods!

GROUP HUG!

lalaith50 · August 2011

I'm thinking along the lines of what caitriona and jasmine posted...

When someone says, "well, actually, the Church teaches x"

if "x" is controversial, it really bothers me how 99% of the time someone gets up-in-arms about how it's a personal attack. As someone pointed out (I think yesterday in another thread,) what if "x" is that murder is wrong? No one would be offended by that! Unfortunately (IMHO) most people think that truth is relative, but the Catholic Church certainly doesn't believe that. I think it would be very sad if someone stated a strong opinion about something that was contrary to the official teachings of the Church, and they *weren't* gently reminded of that! (Not even necessarily for their own benefit--moreso for the benefit of lurkers or those who aren't as well-informed about Church teaching as most of the "regulars" on here are.)

Precisely for that reason I think it is so important for us to be the "global face of Catholicism." On one hand, no one is going to come to the board "just for fun." (like, I would never visit the Jewish or Muslim boards or whatever, unless I had a specific question that I thought they could answer. I mean, I don't CARE what they discuss about their religions!) But on the other hand, this board is be a place where people get ideas about Catholic things, so why would we let them think something that isn't true?

As I kind of said above, to reiterate, I think that it is really unfortunate that the Catholic Church IS pretty much the only denomination or religion to continue to speak absolute truths! Just because people get "offended" because someone else is speaking something that they believe to be an absolute truth, does not mean that that person should stop saying such a thing! I wonder if the tolerance level for people reminding others of what the CC teaches has greatly decreased in recent decades, simply because everyone else is afraid to speak things as absolute truths?

blush64 · August 2011

I came from the same sort of place. (Catholic schools only right into the completely non-Catholic workplace and university...well at least I didn't know any others who were)

I get what you mean.

I have found so much misconception about Catholics and so many stereotypes that I always have to end up defending my faith.....until presented with Catholics who fit right in with the stereotypes.

I would say it's important to note, however, in reality there is a lot of misplaced hate and prejudice towards Catholics in the world. We should do our best to be good Christians but also to defend the faith when necessary.

monkeysip · August 2011

I really appreciate your post, Docta.

It's always great to hear where people are coming from. We all come from such different backgrounds. It really helps us to understand why people express themselves in different ways. Sometimes I think that we're disagreeing less than we think we are... but we're just not able to express ourselves in the same way.

For me, as a former devout protestant, it was really bold people calling me out on my false beliefs and asking me to defend them (and I couldn't!), and then giving me clear, rational, teachings of the church that really opened my eyes and led to my conversion. Sometimes, I was really offended by certain Catholic teachings, but it planted a seed and got me to thinking about my beliefs and my actions.

I think this is why now, as a Catholic, I take an approach that may be more blunt to some. But I totally recognize that this approach could be offensive to some, and it's never a good thing if you push someone further from the faith by using hurtful words. It's a fine line to walk between explaining catholic teaching and sounding like you're personally attacking someone. Unfortunately, I don't always have the tact to walk that line right, so I'm sorry when I let my virtual mouth get away from me.

I only have my FI and one other catholic friend that I can really talk to, and the friend lives in Virginia. My entire life I've been surrounded by non-Catholic friends and family members, and right now in grad-school I'm surrounded by people that think that all religion is absurd. Even my professors. So I can get pretty defensive whenever someone says anything against the Church. It is difficult when I feel that people on this board get offended just by stating catholic teaching, when we're all catholic here. It seems like it should be the one place that we're protected from judgment for simply holding to catholic teaching.

Resa77 · August 2011

I think it's important to have a balance -- stand up for your faith and speak the truth, but do it with love and not judgment.

This is actually something that's been on my mind a lot, because I have a friend (not really my friend, but we have mutual friends so I see him somewhat regularly) who makes terrible, violent, hateful comments about anything he perceives as a threat to Catholicism -- democrats, gays, muslims...the list goes on. What he's saying is not Christ-like in the least!! It upsets me so much because the non-Catholics around him, or even the Catholics who are maybe struggling in their faith, are turned away from the Church when they hear such a devout Catholic talk that way.

It's sooooo upsetting, too, because he just hides behind Catholicism to justify his hatred. And that's obviously not Christ-like. Convert the sinners, don't stone them!!

That being said, I don't think anyone in here tends to say those kinds of things. Sometimes there are misunderstandings, because a post wasn't written clearly or because someone read something else into it, but for the most part, I think people on this board are very respectful and a positive representation of Catholics

monkeysip · August 2011

"who makes terrible, violent, hateful comments about anything he perceives as a threat to Catholicism -- democrats, gays, muslims...the list goes on. What he's saying is not Christ-like in the least!! It upsets me so much because the non-Catholics around him, or even the Catholics who are maybe struggling in their faith, are turned away from the Church when they hear such a devout Catholic talk that way. "

Yeah... it just goes to show that there are people on both sides of the whole "traditional/liberal" spectrum that do not hold true to the church's teachings.

I think there are some people that think they're upholding the faith, when really they're making up their own doctrines ("democrats are evil" "all muslims are terrorists" "gays are all going to hell", etc.). They confuse Catholic teaching with "conservative" politics even though the overlap is minor, or they think that sins like homosexual activity are somehow worse than any other sexual sin. Honestly, they let their own prejudices merge with their catholic faith.

cms4mf · August 2011

Thank you for this post

I think it is important to always be kind to others and speak in a helpful, rather than accusatory manner. People often get so caught up in specifics and rules they forget that Christ taught basic kindness.

It really upsets me though to see how many people have opinions of the Church solely formed by popular media. In those instances especially I think its important to explain the full teachings of the church. If people want to criticize my beliefs they can go ahead, as long as they even know what the actual church teaching is before they start criticizing.

chelseamb11 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_please-read-especially-board-regs?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:ebf2f590-553b-4355-babb-a9679f63dce7Post:0e6a3823-5959-4b54-b19c-9dcd664c96f6">Re: Please Read (especially board regs)</a>:
[QUOTE]I think it's important to have a balance -- stand up for your faith and speak the truth, <strong>but do it with love and not judgment.</strong> This is actually something that's been on my mind a lot, because I have a friend (not really my friend, but we have mutual friends so I see him somewhat regularly) who makes terrible, violent, hateful comments about anything he perceives as a threat to Catholicism -- democrats, gays, muslims...the list goes on. What he's saying is not Christ-like in the least!! It upsets me so much because the non-Catholics around him, or even the Catholics who are maybe struggling in their faith, are turned away from the Church when they hear such a devout Catholic talk that way. It's sooooo upsetting, too, because he just hides behind Catholicism to justify his hatred. And that's obviously not Christ-like. Convert the sinners, don't stone them!! That being said, I don't think anyone in here tends to say those kinds of things. Sometimes there are misunderstandings, because a post wasn't written clearly or because someone read something else into it, but for the most part, I think people on this board are very respectful and a positive representation of Catholics
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

AMEN to that.
This world has enough hate in it. Don't make it worse by judging others and condeming them. That's why I have such a hard time with Westboro Baptist Church. Their catchline is God HatesFags. That bugs the crap out of me. God hates no one. They say that war and other bad things that happen are God's ways of punishing us for ours and everyone else's sins. That is baloney.

Resa77 · August 2011

In Response to Re: Please Read (especially board regs):
Yeah... it just goes to show that there are people on both sides of the whole "traditional/liberal" spectrum that do not hold true to the church's teachings. I think there are some people that think they're upholding the faith, when really they're making up their own doctrines ("democrats are evil" "all muslims are terrorists" "gays are all going to hell", etc.). They confuse Catholic teaching with "conservative" politics even though the overlap is minor, or they think that sins like homosexual activity are somehow worse than any other sexual sin. Honestly, they let their own prejudices merge with their catholic faith.
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

Well said!

doctabroccoli · August 2011

Oh my gosh, Resa, that's awful. Thankfully no one around here is like that (or at least no one who posts).

And I understand about speaking the truth. I am certainly not debating that. But what I am saying is that because I have a bit of an "outsider" perspective from being in such a non-Catholic environment, every once in a while, I will see a post that doesn't quite sit right with me from the point of view that it could be misinterpreted (either in tone or in word). I have, on occasion, not responded in the best way possible because I let my frustration get to me, this is true. But I don't want anyone to get their feelings hurt because I call them out on how they have worded a post. It's not personal, please believe me.

mica178 · August 2011

I really do love the practice of Catholicism. I just think the religion is wonderful.

But sometimes when H accuses me of being too legalistic, I remind myself to take a step back and re-read Romans 14. Paul helps to ground me.

Just in case someone wants to do the same:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=NIV

monkeysip · August 2011

Wow, very good and appropriate scripture passage, Mica. Thanks for sharing!

rcj2rcd · August 2011

Docta- thank you for this post. I'm a lurker 99% of the time, but I really really appreciate having this board. The info/help/advice I've received from this board is priceless, both for my upcoming wedding and for life in general. I'm a new Catholic (2010 Easter Vigil) and besides FIs family, I have no other resources. My family and most of my friends are non-denominational and aren't supportive of my decision to convert. The WR and NWR discussions on this board have been enlightening and helpful for me. When I post or ask something that may be incorrect or ill-explained, I appreciate someone "calling me out". I don't see it as being negative.

ootmother2 · August 2011

This place is more than just a message board.

It is one of the many global faces of Catholicism. We want it to be welcoming to everyone who needs assistance. It's true that it's difficult to not offend at least someone at some point in our lives, but we are representing the Catholic faith here, and we should do our best to ensure we put our best foot forward in how we compose our posts. There is no emotion associated with our words like in real life. All we have is what we see typed on the page, and that can lead to misunderstandings if we're not careful. And since this isn't just a random subject board but rather a board for an entire religion (and its many subsets), these kinds of things can have a much larger effect both within and outside of the faith.

So well said, Docta!

ootmother2 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_please-read-especially-board-regs?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:ebf2f590-553b-4355-babb-a9679f63dce7Post:3f45c507-e1fa-4158-b07b-3eb2b10dfb25">Re: Please Read (especially board regs)</a>:
[QUOTE]Oh my gosh, Resa, that's awful. Thankfully no one around here is like that (or at least no one who posts). And I understand about speaking the truth. I am certainly not debating that. But what I am saying is that because I have a bit of an "outsider" perspective from being in such a non-Catholic environment, every once in a while, I will see a post that doesn't quite sit right with me from the point of view that it could be misinterpreted (either in tone or in word). I have, on occasion, not responded in the best way possible because I let my frustration get to me, this is true. But I don't want anyone to get their feelings hurt because I call them out on how they have worded a post. It's not personal, please believe me.
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]

I grew up Catholic and even attended a Jesuit university. I never felt like an outsider although because it wasn't really an issue where I lived. My father told me when I went away to college, "you know how to learn, now let the Jesuits teach you how to think"

I have been guilty of commenting here because I think there are some posters who have learned but don't know how to think. On their own.

Our religion is not only about loving God, it's also about loving each other. God said this was important and God wasn't just kidding when he wrote the 10 Commandments.,

When Jesus was asked what the two most important commandments were, he answered, "Love God with your whole heart and love your neighbor as yourself".

I do try to live by this every day of my life. Some days, it's harder to love my neighbor more than others ;)

kap617 · August 2011

I haven't had a chance to read all the responses, but thank you for this. As someone whose life experiences have been very similar to yours, I can really relate. I've lurked on this board but never posted before (wait, strike that, I've posted once). Your message makes me feel much more welcome and, thus, much more likely to become a more active voice. Thanks.

banana468 · August 2011

What a great post! I've experienced some of what you describe and it's made me aware of why others can have a negative view. DH and I recently dealt with some judgement by his family and I wish I could print out your OP.

prettyirishgirl · August 2011

I just want to say as a newcomer to this board and having been lurking around the knot in general for a while now This post makes me feel so great about the other women posting on here and makes me feel liek if there ever was a problem it could be handled knowingly, responsibly and respectfully unlike in the case of some boards or posting groups.

ootmother2 · August 2011

my opinion and a metrocard will get you on the subway, but I really think that you should sticky this post.

There are other post stickied by mods, go ahead!

newlyseliski · August 2011

well said, docta! we could always use a reminder to use charity with truth

agapecarrie · August 2011

I have been thinking on this for several days....wavering on whether to bring this up. I'm still not sure I should, but something is really irking me.

Talking about members on this board publicly on another board isn't the best representation of the Catholic faith either.

I have read some outright lies about me in other places (no, I'm not accusing you docta). but I have read several other negative "talking behind someone's back" comments just out there, in the context of the "Catholic" board. That is really a bad example....and for people that say they want to represent Catholicism in such a good light and don't want to give a bad impression, well, this is a big fail.

lalaith50 · August 2011

oh, wow, that's sooo mature. I'm soooo glad that we have people like that whom TK has wisely chosen to be a mod....

doctabroccoli · August 2011

I am so confused right now about Agape and Lala's posts. I have only seldomly (like less than 5 times ever) said anything about CW on E (positive or negative), and I have always been as general as possible. People talk about one board on another board all the time (regardless of the board). And there's a lot of off-board discussion as well. Those types of things you really can't do anything about. I was speaking for things that get posted on this board, nowhere else.

lalaith50 · August 2011

But that's the whole point-- if you're trying to give a 'good Christian image' of this board and Catholics in general, then repeating negative things that have been said by people on this board is not the way to do it!

ETA: it doesn't matter if people talk about other boards/people "all the time..." If it's not helpful/productive, then it probably shouldn't be said. "Above reproach" Colossians 1:22. (I'm not saying I am, but I do try!)

Please Read (especially board regs)

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