What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?

missy68 · June 2010

Who said those changes were good ones to make and beneficial in the long run? How do you know it didn't open the doors to more problems?
The BSA is a rock solid institution precisely because it remains what it was established to be 100 years ago. Have they had problems? Sure - so has every other youth-serving organization, but because the BSA steadfastedly holds to their moral code, they come under fire more than others, and because they are a large organization, it is more prominent and in the news.
They continually update training for leaders and handbooks, and they are updating merit badges all the time (there's one for computers, filmmaking - courtesy of a joint venture a while back with Steven Spielberg, and others that weren't around 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago). But the basic principles stay the same.

(Banana, I'm checking into the Eagles/Atheist thing).

ladymurphy · June 2010

My athiest, bi-sexual brother is an Eagle Scout. I was raised as a UU -- both my dad and brother were very active in Boy Scouts. So are my dad's two brothers, his mother and most of my male cousins. The local chapters vary widely in their adherence to the national curriculum.

As for supporting an organization you don't believe in -- it could be a life-changing experience for your son. Do you really want to deny him that because the upper management isn't much in support of the gays? Maybe for every dollar you spend for BSA, you could donate an equal amount to a liberal organization. Or maybe you could use the BSA's corporate message as teaching moments for the next 8 years. My brother, if anything, is militantly liberal. It was good for him to be exposed to Christians who didn't think he was going to hell.

Rambling point: I'm pro-BSA.

CLSchramm · June 2010

My point is, if they are not going to promote themselves as a God/church/christian organization, then they should not discriminate boys on these bases. My father was in BSA and I had no idea until this discussion today that this was even an issue. His stories of being in it are mostly of him and his dad making things together and going to summer camp. IMO the organization is about making boys into men (metaphoricially speaking), and that's how it should be run.

I'm not saying they should change their values, or even that they should change their code; thats part of their history. However, belief should not be a requirement of membersip, the same as it is not a requirement in order to say the Pledge of Allegiance. It might have been founded by religious people, a lot of organizations have been, for instance many sororities and fraternities have religious roots, but that does not mean they discriminate on who can be a member if religion is not their main reason for exisiting.

banana468 · June 2010

Here's the difference. You don't HAVE to be a member of the Boy Scouts. It's something you join of your own free will. That is totally different than saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

And I'm not sure how you want him to take the oath and make it his own. It's not HIS oath. It's that of the Boy Scouts.

Again, you don't have to like it and you might want them to change.

BUT, that isn't the debate here. It's whether or not OWN's child should join the organization based on the rules and regulations in that organization TODAY.

If you want to debate whether or not they should change fine.

But today, the requirement is that you believe in a God - any God. And perhaps you don't think that's a big deal. However it's a large enough deal that the BSA has retroactively revoked Eagle to self-proclaimed athiests. So clearly your opinion on the matter is not the opinion of the BSA.

And perhaps I'll be told that I'm anti-feminist, but the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts just aren't the same thing. BSA does SO much more. Being a Girl Scout is fantastic, but what they do isn't on par with what the Boy Scouts do.

missy68 · June 2010

A belief in God is one of their pillars - not a religion. They don't expect a Scout to be a Methodist, a Baptist, a Catholic, an LDS, a Muslim, or anything. They expect a Scout to do his duty to God and his country, whatever that is or however that is defined. I think you're confusing God with religion here. All religions have a form of God in them.
The belief in God is found in the Scout Oath and the Scout Law.

ohwhynot · June 2010

This has been a very interesting discussion for me, and I thank you all for your perspectives. If it was only the theism requirement, I'd probably let my son join, because frankly I don't think he knows whether he believes in god or not and because I guess I respect that requirement, even though I couldn't join myself. If he decides that he does not believe, he'd have to leave the scouts, and I think he and I could discuss that so that he'd understand.

But the ban on gay leaders (and, I believe, scouts who openly declare themselves gay, but I'm not positive about that) is absolutely unacceptable to me and I cannot let him join or support an organization with that policy. No matter how much other good they do.

I suppose if, as he gets older, he decides he agrees with the policy, that's a different kettle of fish, but for now . . . I have to lean against joining. It's not a fit for our family.

banana468 · June 2010

OWN, i respect that.

FWIW, DH said to me that you can be gay and in scouts. But you can't use scouting as your platform when promoting homosexual activities. In other words, you couldn't work at a college rainbow center and wear your Scout uniform nor would the Scouts condone you marching in a gay pride parade in uniform.

But if you were gay and you liked scouting, they're cool with that. Again, that's how DH has phrased it to me.

CLSchramm · June 2010

Well, banana, you clearly don't want her boy to even attempt to join or see what it's all about. I guess you're right, atheists should steer clear of the BSA, especially if all moms/wives are as ardent spokes-women for its "values" as you seem to be.

Also, I wasn't aware that saying the Pledge of Allegiance was something we made people do. I always felt like I did it of my own free will. I guess I'm wrong there too.

ohwhynot · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_opinion-boy-scouts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:3c4ea406-2ab0-4dd1-a643-5fec3280bb12Post:a98e2fc3-85a7-4838-9d47-9ec62bc1aaa6">Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?</a>:
[QUOTE]OWN, i respect that. FWIW, DH said to me that you can be gay and in scouts. But you can't use scouting as your platform when promoting homosexual activities. In other words, you couldn't work at a college rainbow center and wear your Scout uniform nor would the Scouts condone you marching in a gay pride parade in uniform. But if you were gay and you liked scouting, they're cool with that. Again, that's how DH has phrased it to me.
Posted by banana468[/QUOTE]

Huh. Other sources I've read said that you can't be a scout, period, unless you're basically closeted. Like, you'd be asked to leave the troop and not allowed to participate in badge activities. Could you march in, say, an anti-war (or pro-war, for that matter) parade and wear your uniform? Is it just that a scout, dressed as a scout, can't participate in political activities, or is it specific to certain issues?

I also believe that you cannot be a leader if you are gay. If those things are not true, I may rethink.

missy68 · June 2010

That's a shame, OWN. I respect your choice, but I just want you to know my family has been involved in Scouting for 57 years in many different roles. It's played a major role in developing the characters of both my father, brother, and those around them. Even my mom and I were involved at one time.

I also know several gays who are supportive of what the BSA does and the opportunity it provides youth and aren't against them. They recognize that it is the nature of a private institution to establish their own rules.

Banana, I think this is what you were saying earlier - when you take a program and in essence water down it's core, something is lost in the transition. And yes, while GSUSA is a decent program, just like YMCA, etc., It isn't the same.

ohwhynot · June 2010

Yeah, it sucks. I really wish the BSA would drop its ban on gays. I think it's an embarassing anachronism and I wish my son could participate. But just like the scouts have a duty and a right to stick up for their principles, so do I. Esp. as a parent.

If my son decides that he is an atheist at some point in his life, he'd probably have to drop out of the scouts at that point, but I guess we'd cross that bridge when we got to it. But yeah, the anti-gay discrimination (and I just did some more research on the matter - a 1991 memorandum clearly bans gay scouts and leaders - it's never been renounced, so that's the official policy of the BSA, apparently) is something I just can't support. It does suck - the other organizations are cool, but you're right: they're not the same.

missy68 · June 2010

No - they cannot wear their Scout uniforms and support any political figure. They can participate in activities like the Lincoln memorial celebration every year, but they could not, say, march for Obama or McCain. It is specific. You cannot as an employee, either, wear either your uniform or dress uniform and support a candidate.

Just this past year, the Scouts got to be the banner bearers in the Tournament of Roses parade and were asked to have a float representing the Centennial year of Scouting. There were Scouts who got to ride on that float as well.

In Miami, 1992/1993 (and they've probably done it several times since then, but I know of this occasion for sure), the local Scouts were banner bearers for the Orange Bowl parade on New Year's Eve.

Calypso1977 · June 2010

Well, banana, you clearly don't want her boy to even attempt to join or see what it's all about. I guess you're right, atheists should steer clear of the BSA, especially if all moms/wives are as ardent spokes-women for its "values" as you seem to be.

not sure how i feel about the tone of that. but i'll address the first sentence.

i for one am not a believer in letting kids decide for themselves what morals and values they wish to follow, explore or learn about. i think its a parents responsibility to steer their child in the direction they feel is the right one to follow. i think OP is doing the right thing in steering her child away from organizations like the scouts, since those organizations do not support the value system that she and her husband have chosen to follow. when that child reaches 18, if they choose a path of religion and conservatism then so be it. but as parents, certain choices should not be left to the children to decide. its a parents responsibilty to be a moral compass - whatever direction tehy feel that compass should point.

banana468 · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_opinion-boy-scouts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:3c4ea406-2ab0-4dd1-a643-5fec3280bb12Post:6ebb1e81-14bd-4fff-8052-98f8e7454d79">Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?</a>:
[QUOTE]Well, banana, you clearly don't want her boy to even attempt to join or see what it's all about. I guess you're right, atheists should steer clear of the BSA, especially if all moms/wives are as ardent spokes-women for its "values" as you seem to be. Also, I wasn't aware that saying the Pledge of Allegiance was something we made people do. I always felt like I did it of my own free will. I guess I'm wrong there too.
Posted by CLSchramm[/QUOTE]

I never said that. I said that I respected OWN's opinion to not let her child join.

Beyond that, I don't support people stomping their feet and wanting a private organization to change simply because they think it should. If you don't find yourself in line with their requirements then they're not for you. Maybe that's harsh, BSA is a private organization. If you don't meet or like the requirements of that organziation then don't go.

You seem so vehemently against them and yet why? Because of those two requirements?. As the wife of an Eagle Scout, you're absolutely right that I'll defend the organization. I've seen first hand all the good things that they do and I absolutely won't back down from that stance. If chiquitabanana is a boy, you can rest assured that I'd support his decision to be in Boy Scouts if he so desired.

As for my comment about the Pledge, you're right. You don't have to say it. You're not required to. It's a freedom we have in this country.

However if you wish to belong to a PRIVATE organization then you need to follow the rules and beliefs of that organization. Otherwise, don't join it. Maybe that's harsh, but that's life. You can't change things to suit you simply because you want it that way.

pooh8402 · June 2010

I actually had no idea until this thread that the Boy Scouts were faith-based. I thought it was just cool things that little boys got to do and learn. I'd have no issues whatsoever if my future kids ever wanted to join. that's my opinion.

banana468 · June 2010

They're not faith-based. They just require you to believe in a God.

katiewhompus · June 2010

I wanted to be a boy scout. My dad is an Eagle and I was always jealous of his stories about growing up in the BSA.

I understand that they don't make you believe in the Christian God, but it still sounds like a very large part of it is a belief in A God, which is not the belief of a growing population.

I must say I think I agree with Banana regarding them changing though. It's a private organization who can do what they want. If they got their funding through the state (do they? I don't know) then I would raise an issue, but otherwise they can do what they want.

I also would hope that unless someone was marching in and being very "I'm gay, let me throw it in your face" they wouldn't do anything. I'm assuming your sexual orientation is not in an entry form so if you were to keep it to yourself you might be fine. Similar with athiesm (again, could be completely wrong because dad was Christian while in the scouts). As long as you aren't being an asss about it they would have no reason to revoke/deny you membership.

Being quiet and knowing when to proclaim your religion/sexual orientation is also an important part of growing up. I'm not going to walk into the middle of a church and go "Hey guys, guess what, I don't believe in your God" because that would just be stupid, dangerous, and pointless.

What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?

Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?

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