Legal marriage then ceremony question

Celles · December 2010

Oh, I'm not defending the OP's friend's plan AT ALL. It's obvious she hasn't done an iota of research, because what she's suggesting will actually hurt her immigration application -- not help it. I was just responding to the whole "YOU GET ONE DAY. ONE. CHOOSE." thing that some people are so hot to trot out. It isn't universally true but it is often presented as such.

I do think that's interesting about the timing of the civil and religious ceremonies, Mica. I did not know that.

emilyinchile · December 2010

I gotcha, Celles. I guess just because most of the weddings we see on here aren't in those countries that answer does work, but I promise to back you up if we ever get a Latin American civil/religious wedding question

Any, please tell your friend I'm sorry. I didn't know they were unfashionable until aegrish opened my eyes to the truth.

Anysunrise · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_legal-marriage-then-ceremony-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:30da63de-1132-4e33-8d6e-7f0dcab4207bPost:6d14c5b0-3863-4605-81ea-8b1eacbfdb03">Re: Legal marriage then ceremony question</a>:
[QUOTE]Oh, I'm not defending the OP's friend's plan AT ALL. It's obvious she hasn't done an iota of research, because what she's suggesting will actually hurt her immigration application -- not help it. I was just responding to the whole "YOU GET ONE DAY. ONE. CHOOSE." thing that some people are so hot to trot out. It isn't universally true but it is often presented as such. I do think that's interesting about the timing of the civil and religious ceremonies, Mica. I did not know that.
Posted by Celles[/QUOTE]

It's her friend, not the OP doing it. Hopefully, she'll be able to link this to her.

Celles · December 2010

I saaaaaaaaid that!

Anysunrise · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_legal-marriage-then-ceremony-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:30da63de-1132-4e33-8d6e-7f0dcab4207bPost:4cdd2bfd-847b-4974-a04d-6cfd4b0477bf">Re: Legal marriage then ceremony question</a>:
[QUOTE]I saaaaaaaaid that!
Posted by Celles[/QUOTE]

Derp derp. It was the other lady who said OP, I'm sorry Celles =(

Anysunrise · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_legal-marriage-then-ceremony-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:30da63de-1132-4e33-8d6e-7f0dcab4207bPost:233d5319-8c15-41dc-b858-a7f50e5fd7bc">Re: Legal marriage then ceremony question</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Legal marriage then ceremony question : Psssst. Your nerd is showing.
Posted by Celles[/QUOTE]

I keep it bared at all times.

Manwaithiel · December 2010

Emily, I love your bangs.

Aegr-something: Geeze, girl.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_legal-marriage-then-ceremony-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:30da63de-1132-4e33-8d6e-7f0dcab4207bPost:08b4812b-ed0f-4700-a64f-1d178357edff">Re: Legal marriage then ceremony question</a>:
[QUOTE]Also, doesn't Mexico -- as a country and as a culture -- regard the religious and civil ceremonies as separate events anyway? We briefly considered getting married at my FIL's timeshare in Puerto Vallarta, and from what we read at the time, we would need to have a civil ceremony at a courthouse in order for a church or beach wedding to be legal. Since most Mexicans are Catholic, and the Catholic Church will only recognize the marriage that it officiates, two weddings are the norm there: legal courthouse wedding to satisfy the state, followed by a ceremonial church wedding to satisfy the soul.<strong> I understand the whole "you are married when you sign the piece of paper" line of thinking, and think that it is true in many cases. But -- and I realize that this is an unpopular opinion -- I don't believe it is universally true across religions and cultures, and it is really starting to irk me to see it presented as if it were.</strong>
Posted by Celles[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are correct. If they want a church wedding in Mexico or something, they'll have to have a civil ceremony somewhere else anyway. However, they should be up front about this.

Also, it's not true in all countries, but it's true in the US that religious ceremonies can serve as legal ceremonies and vice versa. So when people have a "quick JOP" and then plan their REAL wedding and say they aren't married until they're married in the church - okay, fine. I respect that your religious marriage is important to you. But clearly there are tangible benefits to the legal marriage (insurance, military benefits, immigration, whatever), otherwise you wouldn't do it. So to tell everyone you're not REALLY married is disingenuous - because I assure you that when the insurance company calls you run to get that proof of legal marriage together REAL quick. (Not to mention, you need to file your taxes as "married" even if you haven't had your pretty church ceremony yet.)

zantster · December 2010

Msmerymac:

Just in the interest of full disclosure we are having a catholic church wedding post-JOP. And I see where you're coming from. But we see our JOP as our "civil union." In France, for example, many couples have a civil union, called a PAC. They do this in order to convey the legal benefits of marriage without actually being married. Here is the link to the nytimes article to explain more about that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/europe/16france.html?scp=1&sq=france%20marriage&st=cse

Our church requires us to, as you say, stay physically apart. And we must attend natural family planning courses, a pre-marriage seminar, take a FOCUS test, meet regularly with the priest who will guide us in what we have to do, etc. This is because the church does not see our union as a sacramental marriage until the church marries us and neither do we. I think that since this is a globally recognized approach to marriage it should be specified by etiquette experts on these boards that this may not be an American custom as codified in American etiquette books, but that does not make it illegitimate. Particularly because the Catholic church is global.

MyNameIsNot · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_legal-marriage-then-ceremony-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:30da63de-1132-4e33-8d6e-7f0dcab4207bPost:4947cf21-f192-4f68-9c71-c2f89762d6ef">Re: Legal marriage then ceremony question</a>:
[QUOTE]Msmerymac: Just in the interest of full disclosure we are having a catholic church wedding post-JOP. And I see where you're coming from. But we see our JOP as our "civil union." In France, for example, many couples have a civil union, called a PAC. They do this in order to convey the legal benefits of marriage without actually being married. Here is the link to the nytimes article to explain more about that. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/europe/16france.html?scp=1&sq=france%20marriage&st=cse" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/europe/16france.html?scp=1&sq=france%20marriage&st=cse</a> Our church requires us to, as you say, stay physically apart. And we must attend natural family planning courses, a pre-marriage seminar, take a FOCUS test, meet regularly with the priest who will guide us in what we have to do, etc. This is because the church does not see our union as a sacramental marriage until the church marries us and neither do we. I think that since this is a globally recognized approach to marriage it should be specified by etiquette experts on these boards that this may not be an American custom as codified in American etiquette books, but that does not make it illegitimate. Particularly because the Catholic church is global.
Posted by zantster[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>There's a reason the Catholic Church has a name for this procedure. It is called a convalidation, not a wedding. Because even the Catholic Church recognizes that it isn't a wedding.

</div>

emilyinchile · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_legal-marriage-then-ceremony-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:30da63de-1132-4e33-8d6e-7f0dcab4207bPost:4947cf21-f192-4f68-9c71-c2f89762d6ef">Re: Legal marriage then ceremony question</a>:
[QUOTE]Msmerymac: Just in the interest of full disclosure we are having a catholic church wedding post-JOP. And I see where you're coming from. But we see our JOP as our "civil union." In France, for example, many couples have a civil union, called a PAC. They do this in order to convey the legal benefits of marriage without actually being married. Here is the link to the nytimes article to explain more about that. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/europe/16france.html?scp=1&sq=france%20marriage&st=cse" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/europe/16france.html?scp=1&sq=france%20marriage&st=cse</a> Our church requires us to, as you say, stay physically apart. And we must attend natural family planning courses, a pre-marriage seminar, take a FOCUS test, meet regularly with the priest who will guide us in what we have to do, etc. This is because the church does not see our union as a sacramental marriage until the church marries us and neither do we. <strong>I think that since this is a globally recognized approach to marriage it should be specified by etiquette experts on these boards that this may not be an American custom as codified in American etiquette books, but that does not make it illegitimate.</strong> Particularly because the Catholic church is global.
Posted by zantster[/QUOTE]

:snort:

It's not a globally recognized approach. It's an approach that is common/correct in some countries around the globe. The former implies that it's equally ok everywhere, and in the US it's still seen as rude.

In France they also only work 35 hours a week - are you planning to reduce your hours and tell your boss to just deal because it's a global approach?

mica178 · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_legal-marriage-then-ceremony-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:30da63de-1132-4e33-8d6e-7f0dcab4207bPost:4947cf21-f192-4f68-9c71-c2f89762d6ef">Re: Legal marriage then ceremony question</a>:
[QUOTE]Msmerymac: Just in the interest of full disclosure we are having a catholic church wedding post-JOP. And I see where you're coming from. But we see our JOP as our "civil union." In France, for example, many couples have a civil union, called a PAC. They do this in order to convey the legal benefits of marriage without actually being married. Here is the link to the nytimes article to explain more about that. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/europe/16france.html?scp=1&sq=france%20marriage&st=cse" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/europe/16france.html?scp=1&sq=france%20marriage&st=cse</a> Our church requires us to, as you say, stay physically apart. And we must attend natural family planning courses, a pre-marriage seminar, take a FOCUS test, meet regularly with the priest who will guide us in what we have to do, etc. This is because the church does not see our union as a sacramental marriage until the church marries us and neither do we. I think that since this is a globally recognized approach to marriage it should be specified by etiquette experts on these boards that this may not be an American custom as codified in American etiquette books, but that does not make it illegitimate. Particularly because the Catholic church is global.
Posted by zantster[/QUOTE]

Zantster,
In many countries, couples need to have a civil marriage for their marriage to be recognized. So the church wedding and the civil wedding are separate. In the US, the government recognizes church weddings as valid, so there is no need to separate the two ceremonies. So there really is no reason to need to JOP and then have a second Catholic wedding if you live in the US. The same US etiquette rules apply since you are marrying in the US.
Also, most priests will not perform a convalidation for people who JOP for practical purposes then decide they want a big church wedding afterwards. Convalidations are traditionally for couples who convert to Catholicism after marriage and want to have their civil marriage become a Sacrament.

zantster · December 2010

emily: 1) By globally recognized I am conveying not that it is accepted everywhere but that is recognized as in being identifiable. In other words, it is not an anomaly that no one has ever heard of. 2) Re: France 35-hour work weeks, you are proving my point in that America has 40-hour work weeks simply because that is the custom. Again, the customs are different. But one is no more ethically or morally wrong than the other. Etiquette is relative and subjective based on your location and other factors.

mynameisnot: You are correct that it is called a convalidation and not a wedding. But in terms of the word marriage, the church does not recognize it as such unless it is performed within the church.

mica: You hit the nail on the head. The church is performing the ceremony so that we will have a sacramental marriage because I am converting. But I am glad that at least you separate the etiquette rules as US etiquette rules. All of our family and friends are being made fully aware of the process we are going through so there is no attempt to hide our civil union.

emilyinchile · December 2010

Well since both Celles and I mentioned how it works in Latin America, clearly we know that it's not something no one has ever heard of.

My point about the work weeks is that each country has its own way of doing things. It would be ethically wrong of you to peace out of your job an hour early every day and hide it from your boss just because "well that's what they do in France." Ditto certain customs that they have in some countries but not the one you live in. There are things I'd do in the US that I'd never do here in Chile and vice versa.

If OP had been talking about a friend getting married in Mexico with both a civil and religious ceremony there then fine, but this isn't a case of some posters lacking cultural understanding - the girl wants to have a US-style wedding and just wants to make immigration go easier. It's not a cultural difference.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_legal-marriage-then-ceremony-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:30da63de-1132-4e33-8d6e-7f0dcab4207bPost:4947cf21-f192-4f68-9c71-c2f89762d6ef">Re: Legal marriage then ceremony question</a>:
[QUOTE]Msmerymac: Just in the interest of full disclosure we are having a catholic church wedding post-JOP. And I see where you're coming from. But we see our JOP as our "civil union." In France, for example, many couples have a civil union, called a PAC. They do this in order to convey the legal benefits of marriage without actually being married. Here is the link to the nytimes article to explain more about that. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/europe/16france.html?scp=1&sq=france%20marriage&st=cse" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/europe/16france.html?scp=1&sq=france%20marriage&st=cse</a> Our church requires us to, as you say, stay physically apart. And we must attend natural family planning courses, a pre-marriage seminar, take a FOCUS test, meet regularly with the priest who will guide us in what we have to do, etc. This is because the church does not see our union as a sacramental marriage until the church marries us and neither do we. I think that since this is a globally recognized approach to marriage it should be specified by etiquette experts on these boards that this may not be an American custom as codified in American etiquette books, but that does not make it illegitimate. Particularly because the Catholic church is global.
Posted by zantster[/QUOTE]

Are you doing this in the US? Because in the US, you can get married in the Catholic Church, have your marriage license signed by a priest, and you'll also be legally married at the same time. In other countries, your legal marriage is required to be at the courthouse, or performed by a government employee, and therefore you need to have a separate civil ceremony and religious wedding (as a wedding performed by a priest wouldn't count). So if you ARE getting married in the US, what on earth would be the reason for two ceremonies? You can knock them both out with your church wedding.

calindi · December 2010

As many posters have mentioned, I think you're significantly underestimating the visa process. But as I don't know anything about the actual laws, I'll leave that to them.

What I do know is that there seems to be this common trend where people get married in secret to get some benefit (usually from the government) and keep it secret from their families. This enfuriates me! In the military, it's common as married couples get separation pay, housing allowance, and then medical insurance benefits. For international couples, it seems to be for the visa.

Look, if circumstances are such that a certain time frame would be better (sooner rather than later, for example), then you have the choice to get married sooner or to wait. No one is "forced" to get married in secret just so they can have the big "white wedding" later. So you are CHOOSING to deceive your family and friends (and yes, if you simply just don't mention it, you're still deceiving them). I won't judge if someone wants to have a "legal wedding" and then a "religious wedding". If they're not religious, I'm still not even bothered by a "legal wedding" and a "vow renewal" that exactly resembles a big white wedding.

But if you're going to get married, be married. Don't pretend you're not married and call each other "fiance" when you're filing taxes jointly. There's so many reasons this is a bad idea, not the least of which is because it's trashy and selfish, and because it is outright lying.

zantster · December 2010

Chill emily, you seem like a cool person and I'm not trying to attack you or anyone else. I respect your strong feelings and attention to detail. Plus I like your bangs too. :-) I just thought maybe you misunderstood the context of what I meant when I used the phrase "globally recognized," not that you or Celles were ignorant.

But I do think the work week thing is apples and oranges primarily because a person can choose to work a 40-hour work week over here or get a part-time job and work 20 or 30 hours or whatever. Working is nothing more than an agreement between employer and employee for a mutually beneficial arrangement. If you make an agreement to work 40 hours then you are absolutely correct that you can't then decide to do 35 or you will get fired.

Similarly, if you subscribe to certain religious tenets like catholicism then you abide by those. If not, then you don't. In our case, we are adhering to catholic doctrine. If we were not then you and I would probably be on the same page.

I am open to everyone's beliefs and don't condemn anything even if I philosophically disagree. And I think religion is one of those factors where U.S. etiquette should be flexible. Perhaps that is why I have not seen it referred to much in etiquette books though.

zantster · December 2010

msmerymac:

That's a good question. He was brought up Catholic, was an altar boy and everything but kind of got away from the church for a few years. He attended mass after a recent family emergency happened that occurred post-JOP and I accompanied him whereupon I became more interested in the church. I was non-denominational up until then. Then he shared with me that he really felt like we needed to get married in the church to which I agreed. But though we wanted to do it right away the next class did not start until later. I started the process of conversion but won't be fully catholic until next summer. The rest, as they say, is history.

smokeybailey · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_legal-marriage-then-ceremony-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:30da63de-1132-4e33-8d6e-7f0dcab4207bPost:f168686f-228d-4916-a662-8dee99fbe61a">Re: Legal marriage then ceremony question</a>:
[QUOTE]Chill emily, you seem like a cool person and I'm not trying to attack you or anyone else. I respect your strong feelings and attention to detail. Plus I like your bangs too. :-) I just thought maybe you misunderstood the context of what I meant when I used the phrase "globally recognized," not that you or Celles were ignorant. But I do think the work week thing is apples and oranges primarily because a person can choose to work a 40-hour work week over here or get a part-time job and work 20 or 30 hours or whatever. Working is nothing more than an agreement between employer and employee for a mutually beneficial arrangement. If you make an agreement to work 40 hours then you are absolutely correct that you can't then decide to do 35 or you will get fired. <strong>Similarly, if you subscribe to certain religious tenets like catholicism then you abide by those. If not, then you don't. In our case, we are adhering to catholic doctrine.</strong> If we were not then you and I would probably be on the same page. I am open to everyone's beliefs and don't condemn anything even if I philosophically disagree. And I think religion is one of those factors where U.S. etiquette should be flexible. Perhaps that is why I have not seen it referred to much in etiquette books though.
Posted by zantster[/QUOTE]

Then why not just be married in the church and be done with it. Here in the States you can do that.

zantster · December 2010

Smokey:
For two reasons - 1) His reunion with the church happened this year, but shortly post-JOP. 2) My conversion couldn't be started until the next class began and won't be complete until next summer so we have no choice but to wait.

However, as I shared earlier, we take this very seriously and are following all the criteria from staying apart to taking a pre-marriage seminar. There is no exemption in the church to any of this regardless of the JOP.

emilyinchile · December 2010

Honestly, zanster, I think your situation is different then. You chose to have a civil ceremony because that's what you wanted, and now as a result of finding a certain religion you have made a completely separate decision to participate in a religious recognition of your marriage. That to me is not the same as planning from the outset that you're going to do a civil ceremony because it's convenient and then a religious ceremony because it's what you dreamed of as a little girl.

mica178 · December 2010

Okay, well then, zanster, you are doing the Catholic convalidation the right way. What most people here disagree with is people marrying in secret so they can have health insurance or a green card or a reduced tax rate, then having a huge production wedding later, never telling their family/guests that they're actually already married. The deception is the problem.

Calypso1977 · December 2010

while its a different country, a girl i know went to india to get married to an indian citizen. he could not move here ot be wiht her for almost 10 months due to all of the visa paperwork, etc.

zantster · December 2010

Nope. They have all been told and know the details on what we are doing and why. I am even making sure that on the STDs it states something to the effect of "Please Join Us As We Unite According to our Faith", so there is no confusion amongst the invitees about the purpose.

Legal marriage then ceremony question

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