Gift Card Bridal Shower

T&JJONES · October 2010

My groom and I live in 9hrs from where most of the guests of my shower live, and my MOH lives 14hrs in the opposite direction from there as well. Would it be rude or offensive to guests for my MOH to send out invitations stating due to the distance we have chosen to "Shower the Bride with Gift Cards by Mail", And have a list of stores in my area? I don't want to put a huge burden on my MOH as she has just graduated university, travel cost and time off work may put her out too much for the shower. And I want his mom and sister to be invited & feel included and would hate for them to feel obligated have to take time off and travel as well.....Thoughts??

lilianne22 · October 2010

If you don't want people to worry about travelling, then just don't have a shower. I do think it's rude to ask people to send you gift cards in lieu of an actual shower though.

marissa_claire · October 2010

If you're only wanting gift cards, then why have a shower? Showers tend to be where you get a lot of gifts and weddings are where you tend to get gift cards and money.

And in regard to the PP, don't invite a ton of people if you know they can't make it. It's one thing to include maybe 4-5 that probably can't come if you want them to feel included, but that would mean you need to have 20 or so that will actually be able to come.

marissa_claire · October 2010

Sorry, just reread and saw that basically what you're asking is for people to not even come to a shower and just send you giftcards. No, definitely not okay. Very gift grabby. If your MOH can't host a shower and if people can't come then you don't get one.

waltzingmatilda13 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:f398155c-c2d0-4c26-b032-5bca0708b7c6">Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]My groom and I live in 9hrs from where most of the guests of my shower live, and my MOH lives 14hrs in the opposite direction from there as well. Would it be rude or offensive to guests for my MOH to send out invitations stating due to the distance we have chosen to "Shower the Bride with Gift Cards by Mail", And have a list of stores in my area? I don't want to put a huge burden on my MOH as she has just graduated university, travel cost and time off work may put her out too much for the shower. And I want his mom and sister to be invited & feel included and would hate for them to feel obligated have to take time off and travel as well.....Thoughts??
Posted by T&JJONES[/QUOTE]

Yes, it would be rude and offensive. What you are suggesting is that people basically send you money. End story.

You don't have to have a bridal shower. Especially if it's going to put a huge burden on anyone to travel and you MOH is not required to host one for you. It is a gift that someone gives to you if they are able to. If no one offers one, you don't have one. And the gift card idea would be a weird suggestion anyways, because the whole point of having the shower is for you to open all the gifts so everyone can ooh and ahh. Kinda of hard to get that excited about gift cards.

T&JJONES · October 2010

"Yes, it would be rude and offensive. What you are suggesting is that people basically send you money. End story.

You don't have to have a bridal shower. Especially if it's going to put a huge burden on anyone to travel and you MOH is not required to host one for you. It is a gift that someone gives to you if they are able to. If no one offers one, you don't have one. And the gift card idea would be a weird suggestion anyways, because the whole point of having the shower is for you to open all the gifts so everyone can ooh and ahh. Kinda of hard to get that excited about gift cards."

My MOH does want to throw a shower and offered it, I'm just saying that I don't want to cause a burden to her, as I know it would be. But I think since she is familiar with tradition feel she is obligated to. The idea was suggested to me by a few different people, none of which seemed to think it was so offensive. I just wanted a few other points of view.

marissa_claire · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:fc55c371-2805-43be-95e5-e40074fcd26c">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]"Yes, it would be rude and offensive. What you are suggesting is that people basically send you money. End story. You don't have to have a bridal shower. Especially if it's going to put a huge burden on anyone to travel and you MOH is not required to host one for you. It is a gift that someone gives to you if they are able to. If no one offers one, you don't have one. And the gift card idea would be a weird suggestion anyways, because the whole point of having the shower is for you to open all the gifts so everyone can ooh and ahh. Kinda of hard to get that excited about gift cards." My MOH does want to throw a shower and offered it, I'm just saying that I don't want to cause a burden to her, as I know it would be. But I think since she is familiar with tradition feel she is obligated to. The idea was suggested to me by a few different people, none of which seemed to think it was so offensive. I just wanted a few other points of view.
Posted by T&JJONES[/QUOTE]

If you don't want to burden her, then don't have one! We're not trying to be mean, we're just telling you that this will honestly offend a lot of people. If she wants to throw you a shower, then it's her call if she has the money, time, etc. to pull it off. Otherwise, it should not happen.

waltzingmatilda13 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:fc55c371-2805-43be-95e5-e40074fcd26c">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE] My MOH does want to throw a shower and offered it, I'm just saying that I don't want to cause a burden to her, as I know it would be. But I think since she is familiar with tradition feel she is obligated to. The idea was suggested to me by a few different people, none of which seemed to think it was so offensive. I just wanted a few other points of view.
Posted by T&JJONES[/QUOTE]

Then decline the shower if you're so worried. If she still insists, don't make her feel bad by saying you think it would be a burden to her and don't offer anymore suggestions about a "mail in" shower. You can invite people from far away and not expect them to show up. You never know who will make the trip for these kinds of things. Just explain to them that you know it's far and you completely understand if they can't make it, you just wanted them to feel involved because they mean so much to you. People will be touched.

Kristin789 · October 2010

You say your MOH wants to host a shower. That's fine.

LOCATION: The shower would need to be held in the town where most of the people live, not 9 or 14 hours away from there. So you would have to travel to get there, and MOH would have to travel to get there. Everyone else already lives there.

And no gift cards sent to you.

MOH will designate someone who lives in the Shower Town to be the Local Arrangements Person, who will find a location for the shower and who will collect any pre-shower gifts.

That means, if a guest cannot attend the shower, the guest mails a shower card with gift card or gift to the Local Arrangements Person a week before the shower. Then the Local Arrangements Person brings that card/gift to the shower, and that card/gift is opened at the shower just as if the giver was there.

trix1223 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:f398155c-c2d0-4c26-b032-5bca0708b7c6">Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]My groom and I live in 9hrs from where most of the guests of my shower live, and my MOH lives 14hrs in the opposite direction from there as well. Would it be rude or offensive to guests for my MOH to send out invitations stating due to the distance we have chosen to "Shower the Bride with Gift Cards by Mail", And have a list of stores in my area? I don't want to put a huge burden on my MOH as she has just graduated university, travel cost and time off work may put her out too much for the shower. And I want his mom and sister to be invited & feel included and would hate for them to feel obligated have to take time off and travel as well.....Thoughts??
Posted by T&JJONES[/QUOTE]

Sorry. That's a really awful idea.

"We want to have a party that you're "invited" to send gifts to, but we don't really want you to actually come, and we don't really want to host you and provide food and beverage. What we really want is $$ for the bride."

That may not be what you're intending to say, but that's exactly how many people will read this "invitation". Your friends and family might not tell you to your face that this is distasteful, but they'll be saying it behind your back. I guarantee it.

T&JJONES · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:b9cc4bb0-abce-4088-b3cd-e2c97f1d3ee9">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Gift Card Bridal Shower : Sorry. That's a really awful idea. "We want to have a party that you're "invited" to send gifts to, but we don't really want you to actually come, and we don't really want to host you and provide food and beverage. What we really want is $$ for the bride." That may not be what you're intending to say, but that's exactly how many people will read this "invitation". Your friends and family might not tell you to your face that this is distasteful, but they'll be saying it behind your back. I guarantee it.
Posted by trix1223[/QUOTE]

So you're telling me a piece of cake & a glass of puch makes you feel better about having been invited to a shower?.... pretty selfish to think you deserve anything in return but a sincere heartfelt thank you for a GIFT! I would never want to recieve anything from someone who expected something in return in the first place! That is not what a gift is. Gift by definition : something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation. 

I just joined this site and can't believe how rude your girls' comments are. There is no further need for anyone's input on this matter!!! All I was asking was if you would find it offensive, a simple yes or no! Not that you thought we were being bitchy and only asking for money! That was not the point nor the intention!<img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-yell.gif" border="0" alt="Yell" title="Yell" />

banana468 · October 2010

Please understand that the point of a shower is that it's a party for the bride but the rest of the people involved are guests too. They need to be thanked in the form of hospitality and some form of refreshment.

If they're asked to just mail the bride gift cards or gifts, the invitation amounts to nothing more than a shakedown.

A GIFT is given without any expectation in return. You're correct there.

A SHOWER is a party - not a request for gifts.

If you don't actually host something, what you're doing is soliciting.

And you don't have to like the opinions on the matter, but since it's unanimous, do you honestly think that there's any reason TO continue with the idea at hand? Those near and dear to you may give you gifts simply because you're near and dear to them. But a request for presents by mail may leave a bad taste in the mouths of MANY people.

In the end, you can do what you'd like to do, but understand that people here are giving you advice in the hopes that you won't go along with something that is extremely inappropriate.

T&JJONES · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:639837bc-4432-4c6f-9a95-78f704e899bc">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]Please understand that the point of a shower is that it's a party for the bride but the rest of the people involved are guests too. They need to be thanked in the form of hospitality and some form of refreshment. If they're asked to just mail the bride gift cards or gifts, the invitation amounts to nothing more than a shakedown. A GIFT is given without any expectation in return. You're correct there. A SHOWER is a party - not a request for gifts. If you don't actually host something, what you're doing is soliciting. And you don't have to like the opinions on the matter, but since it's unanimous, do you honestly think that there's any reason TO continue with the idea at hand? Those near and dear to you may give you gifts simply because you're near and dear to them. But a request for presents by mail may leave a bad taste in the mouths of MANY people. In the end, you can do what you'd like to do, but understand that people here are giving you advice in the hopes that you won't go along with something that is extremely inappropriate.
Posted by banana468[/QUOTE]

Exactly, I just wanted to hear "yes, I would take offense, or, ...no, its understandable with all of the distances." and then take the votes and
see where the idea stood.
I only take offense to the girls who were so rude and put in more than needed to be said. The idea itself wasn't even mine and I still take offense to how rude they were about a simple idea that someone said to me, not knowing it would even be a burden to my MOH as a host. They thought it would help me out as I have a small car and most likely would not be able to take all the gifts in one trip home. They thought people could purchase a gift card instead stating what their gift would be so I could purchase it at a store in the state where I live, since couples do that at weddings, they didn't think it would come across as such an offense.

T&JJONES · October 2010

I also don't see why all over this site some of you same girls think its okay to ask for gift cards if its specifically a lingerie shower, instead of a general shower for either lingerie or something for the home. Seems a little double standard...

banana468 · October 2010

Personally I'm not a fan of asking for gift cards at all.

But keep in mind, your question was two-fold:

1) Can I ask for gift cards?

2) Can someone throw a gift card shower for me that is really just asking people to mail me gift cards to my house when there won't be a party thrown?

And no one is being rude to you. They're just really vocal about how much they dislike the idea.

And FWIW, I received an invitation similar to this. It wasn't for a gift card shower but it was for a "long distance shower" where I was asked to send a gift to the couple when no party was being thrown. And I did think it was offensive. If someone who was part of throwing it asked me what I thought I'd be as sweet as possible about the idea, but I just wan't a fan of the "Please send a gift to the bride at this location and we have no intention of hosting you at all" sentiment.

bablingbrooke · October 2010

Very, very wrong.

bablingbrooke · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:288476c3-c0ba-40b1-a16e-5ba15fa63b92">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]I also don't see why all over this site some of you same girls think its okay to ask for gift cards if its specifically a lingerie shower, instead of a general shower for either lingerie or something for the home. Seems a little double standard...
Posted by T&JJONES[/QUOTE]
Oh, and I hate showers like this, too. I was invited to one this summer and was still assigned a gift to buy even after I RSVP'd no. There is no double standard here. It's all wrong.

lalap69 · October 2010

Yeah, I'm going to agree with PP and say that I find the idea horribly offensive. There's nothing wrong with foregoing a shower if you're worried about burdening your MOH.

trix1223 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:f398155c-c2d0-4c26-b032-5bca0708b7c6">Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]My groom and I live in 9hrs from where most of the guests of my shower live, and my MOH lives 14hrs in the opposite direction from there as well. Would it be rude or offensive to guests for my MOH to send out invitations stating due to the distance we have chosen to "Shower the Bride with Gift Cards by Mail", And have a list of stores in my area? I don't want to put a huge burden on my MOH as she has just graduated university, travel cost and time off work may put her out too much for the shower. And I want his mom and sister to be invited & feel included and would hate for them to feel obligated have to take time off and travel as well.....Thoughts??
Posted by T&JJONES[/QUOTE]

You asked two things in your OP. First bolded was would it be rude or offensive? And every single person said unequivocally "Yes it would be rude and offensive"

Then at the end YOU asked for "thoughts". If you don't want thoughts, then don't ask the question. But it was YOUR request for thoughts, and people gave their thoughts.

You really can't get angry at them when YOU specifically asked people to share their thoughts, even though you didn't like those thoughts.

T&JJONES · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:81421c5a-d655-4505-97de-7930d5ac026d">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Gift Card Bridal Shower : You asked two things in your OP. First bolded was would it be rude or offensive? And every single person said unequivocally "Yes it would be rude and offensive" Then at the end YOU asked for "thoughts". If you don't want thoughts, then don't ask the question. But it was YOUR request for thoughts, and people gave their thoughts. You really can't get angry at them when YOU specifically asked people to share their thoughts, even though you didn't like those thoughts.
Posted by trix1223[/QUOTE]

I understand, I wanted your thought on if it was offensive or not, not your rude reply of wanting cake! Please stop posting on here I have no interest on anything else you have to say. You obviously think you know it all having posted almost 12,000 times. That's over kill. Please just stop posting on this thread. Thank you!

marissa_claire · October 2010

Sweetie, we aren't being mean or rude. You asked honestly if it's a bad idea, a lot of people told you that yes, it's a horrible idea. You might be upset because you liked the idea, and we're just trying to point you in the polite direction here. I know it seems harsh, but I think it's just tough love around here when someone's about to commit a huge faux pas.

That being said - you still have two options: 1) not have a shower at all or 2) have your MOH arrange a shower where all your relatives or guests live. If you're not cool with either of those options, then yeah, you're not going to find much support around here.

trix1223 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:e233efd9-2061-40c9-9c36-4f5c2a9369f6">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower : I understand, I wanted your thought on if it was offensive or not, not your rude reply of wanting cake! Please stop posting on here I have no interest on anything else you have to say. You obviously think you know it all having posted almost 12,000 times. That's over kill. Please just stop posting on this thread. Thank you!
Posted by T&JJONES[/QUOTE]

First, darlin': I didn't say anyting about wanting cake. Re-read my post. I specifically said that it might not have been what you were saying, but it's what people would walk away with. I mentioned that it's rude to ask people for gifts when you don't intend to properly host them. I never mentioned cake: you did.

As for "Please stop posting on here": not your call. When you put out a question, and a request for thoughts, on an open message board, you live with the consequences of that decision. And that means that anyone can reply, and continue to reply as they wish.

You could have brought this to a close a while ago had you simply said something like "Thank you all. I now realize that this would be a bad idea. I'll look for an alternate plan" instead of getting grumpy and telling people how to post.

baystateapple · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:2f6378f1-d450-442e-8cfa-ce23f1abb397">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]I just joined this site and can't believe how rude your girls' comments are. There is no further need for anyone's input on this matter!!! All I was asking was if you would find it offensive, a simple yes or no! Not that you thought we were being bitchy and only asking for money! That was not the point nor the intention!
Posted by T&JJONES[/QUOTE]

I think it's really cute that you think that just because you're done with this topic, you can shut the thread down and say "Nobody else needs to put in their two cents anymore!" This is a public message board. There have been threads like this one where the bride throws a hissy fit that she's been told she's rude, claimed to "shut the thread down"...and the thread goes on for a few more days. Good luck with that.

JerseyML · October 2010

Holy heated argument!

T&J if you wanted a simple yes or no response for your post why not put a survey. You asked for the girls opinion and they gave it to you.

I have been to a money/giftcards shower before. My friend was getting married to a man who she is lived with for a long time. No need for new stuff really but they needed to renovate their house. But a legit shower was still given with food, cake and cheesy games.

I suggest to do whatever you want to do. But if you post something just be aware that you might not get the responses you hoped for.

SuMmErKuTiE · October 2010

Wow.. this is the 2nd thread recently where the OP came here asking a question, got answers they didn't like and they flipped out and started calling everyone rude. I didn't see any rudeness until the OP came back and started getting upset.

OP: I think it's great that you don't want to burden your MOH, and it sounds like everyone is pretty spread out mileage wise and a burden on more than just your MOH. You can either decline politely the offer for the bridal shower or suggest that the MOH holds it in an area where there are a handful of people who live close enough that could attend. You could either have a small shower that you could travel to, or just don't have one at all which is perfectly fine. The whole gift cards by mail idea is very tacky and I don't think it would be well received so I would definitely skip that idea as pp's have mentioned. Please just realize that the pp's were giving you good advice and weren't being rude, you probably just didn't expect some of the ladies to have such a strong argument as to why this is a bad idea.

Manwaithiel · October 2010

You sound like a 4 year old who didn't get their way and is now throwing a temper tantrum.

CWill16 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:e233efd9-2061-40c9-9c36-4f5c2a9369f6">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower : I understand, I wanted your thought on if it was offensive or not, not your rude reply of wanting cake! Please stop posting on here I have no interest on anything else you have to say. You obviously think you know it all having posted almost 12,000 times. That's over kill. Please just stop posting on this thread. Thank you!
Posted by T&JJONES[/QUOTE]

Now who is being rude?

You don't get a say regarding who posts on your thread. Anyone can say just about anything they want. You cannot control the actions of others, you can only control your own. You cannot stop people from posting here, but you can stop your sel from coming.

So please, go. We won't miss you.

frogurt814 · October 2010

I want cake!

suz62984 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:377eeb02-460f-4fe1-b6bd-4939ece384d1">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]If you don't want people to worry about travelling, then just don't have a shower. I do think it's rude to ask people to send you gift cards in lieu of an actual shower though.
Posted by lilianne22[/QUOTE]

This times one trillion!

heyimbren · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_pre-wedding-parties_gift-card-bridal-shower?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:32Discussion:6a464306-fb26-4757-927b-1f0d37831f58Post:263e01d0-b625-488e-aa56-856d54f8d060">Re: Gift Card Bridal Shower</a>:
[QUOTE]I want cake!
Posted by frogurt814[/QUOTE]

This is also the conclusion I came to after reading these posts.
I'm a pretty easy person to invite to a shower... just promise cake.

But anyways, OP. Yes, I don't like the idea of a gift card shower. I also don't like the idea of a "non-shower" where people are supposed to send gifts without a party. For your future referance OP...

A few etiquette rules:
1) Don't ask for money (and gift cards are close enough to money to also apply to this rule)
2) If a shower is being thrown, the hosts are expected to host the shower. "Hosting" entails some refreshments and actual time spent at a party (aka "the shower).
4) If the shower is going to be a "burden" then simply decline a shower. Showers are not mandatory, they are optional.
3) Don't tell people how to respond to your posts. You're not making any friends that way.

bablingbrooke · October 2010

Free advice: Throwing the internet equivalent of a tantrum (which is what you are doing) is really immature. Either walk away or admit that this was a poorly-conceived idea. You might even say, "Thanks for saving me from doing something really boneheaded in front of my nearest and dearest that I would never, ever live down." Because that's what everyone here is trying to do, believe it or not.

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