In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:0777844f-19eb-4521-a5ac-c15d85c9e7bf">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : Yes I do. However, but I think that if you can't feed your children because of your addictions, you need to find some help! Not to be a hard-ass or anything but I mean there are free or low cost rehab programs all over the country.. you're clearly willing to accept monatary assistance, why not mental/psychological help as well? Posted by SamiJoeB[/QUOTE]
I agree - and logically anyone would quit if you can't feed yourself or your children. But a true addict doesn't see it that way. Their number 1 priority is that drug of choice. Everything and I truly mean everything else comes second to that. They have $50 to spend and have to chose between their drug of choice and food - they'll chose that drug of choice. Addicts don't think clearly - they don't think logically or rationally. Addiction really turns them into a completely different person. Their chain of thoughts and reasoning isn't the same as a normal non-addict person.
Even not addicts - I see people in Miami chatting on iPhones at the check-out, carrying a designer handbag and wearing expensive clothes, buying beer and ice cream and frozen junk food and cookies, and they pay using EBT and then get a lot of cash back. I didn't even know you could get cash back from food stamps, but apparently you can! It disgusts me. I'd really like to pay for more clothes or an iPhone, but I can't because I'm paying taxes so you can buy your beer and ice cream and get cash back to pay your iPhone bill.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:1d5e511f-b6a6-428d-a45e-bec54121e46e">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]<strong>My point with the, letting them use welfare money on cigarettes, thing was that, if they are smoking a pack or 2 a day, they're spending at least $50 a week on cigarettes that they should be spending on food and clothing for their kiids.</strong> That's why welfare recipients are no longer to use that money on cigarettes in PA. <strong>Also, in respiratory school, we learned that those on welfare (and those of lower classes) are more likely to be smokers. It dumbfounds me almost because, if you can barely feed your kids then why are you spending money on something that is not a necessity. I understand that you are addicted and it is a disease but, as a respiratory therapist student I had the opporunity to work with pulmonary rehab programs and have seen people quit by simply cutting back a little at a time.</strong> That costs people LESS money. <strong>Granted, these are men and women who are to the point of desperation in a lot of cases where they need oxygen 24/7, have had lung transplants, are trying to get more time with their kids and grandkids but, why does it have to come to that for people to quit? </strong> <u>We will spend more money through medicaid taking care of the people that are smoking and are unfortunate enough to end up with pulmonary diseases than we would if we spent the money on smoking cessation programs.</u> It broke my heart to see these people going through this. I sat through a pulmonologist appointment during my schooling with a man that wished he had quit sooner. He had maybe a few months left and to see the heartbreak it caused him and his wife...I just wanted to cry. Addiction to cigarettes is a disease but it is one that doesn't have to happen and it is one that causes worse problems in the end. ETA: I just feel very strongly about smoking cessation. Everyone wants to look at it as a burden but it really isn't. Posted by Sammy0709[/QUOTE]
It's an addiction, but a completely unnecessary one! I agree 100% with EVERYTHING that Sammy is saying (So much so that I nearly bolded everything she said!).. Why as a tax payer should I be supporting someone else's bad habit? I would much rather that money go towards helping them quit. It's not like it's this big secret that smoking is bad for you. Smoking can and in a lot of cases will eventually kill you. Taking the attitude that "We'll all die sometime" is just plain lazy.
Smoking isn't the only addiction I take issue with though, people who are addicted to food and are thus morbidly obese, or people who are addicted to tanning and thus have skin cancer. All of these things are preventable and treatable, so why as a society do we just feed the habit? rather than help the person suffering to stop.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:6a3331c6-9af8-4fb6-9227-187b89d137b5">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]Even not addicts - I<strong> see people in Miami chatting on iPhones at the check-out, carrying a designer handbag and wearing expensive clothes, buying beer and ice cream and frozen junk food and cookies, </strong>and they pay using EBT and then get a lot of cash back. I didn't even know you could get cash back from food stamps, but apparently you can! It disgusts me. I'd really like to pay for more clothes or an iPhone, but I can't because I'm paying taxes so you can buy your beer and ice cream and get cash back to pay your iPhone bill. Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]
HECK YES! 100% agree. I worked as a cashier during high school. OMG! The most heart breaking people were the ones that would put back the healthy food (fruits/veggies) because they couldn't afford their junk food with it. This is unpopular, but I think that they should get rid of the card and give people vouchers like WIC. They get free Milk, Veggies, Juice, Meat.... whatever they NEED to live on. And if they want pizza and chips. Buy that with your own money.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:0abd2423-1c75-4efe-ae7e-bdf264497dc6">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : I agree - and logically anyone would quit if you can't feed yourself or your children. But a true addict doesn't see it that way. Their number 1 priority is that drug of choice. Everything and I truly mean everything else comes second to that. They have $50 to spend and have to chose between their drug of choice and food - they'll chose that drug of choice. Addicts don't think clearly - they don't think logically or rationally. Addiction really turns them into a completely different person. Their chain of thoughts and reasoning isn't the same as a normal non-addict person. Posted by amh04[/QUOTE]
I get that, but I think that counseling, drug testing, home visits all of that should be part of receiving assistance. It would create jobs too no?
Ok, to sum it up- I am pro choice AND pro abortion.
I think people should be drug tested for Welfare
I don't care if you're gay, straight, polygamist, or marrying a cow. If it doesn't affect me in my day to day life, it's not my business. I will keep my beliefs on religion and "what's right" to my own life. Kthanks.
Immigration laws are there to protect us. And, although my mom was an illegal immigrant coming into this country, I think it's important to have these laws. Sorry momma, but you was wrong! LOL! She's legal now, though.
Ok. I am going to ignore the abortion and gay marriage debate. I am pro choice and pro gay marriage, and I think everyone else has explained my reasonings well.
Now on to addiction, welfare and drug testing. Drug testing welfare recipients will do absolutely nothing to stop the abuse of welfare. Mostly because the people who are using welfare aren't your hardcore drug addicts. All the examples people provided on this post said nothing about that person using drugs.
First of all, in order to properly execute a drug test, it needs to be supervised. yes that would create jobs, but it would also cost money. Money that governments already don't have. It is very easy to fake a drug test if it is not supervised. Secondly, it needs to be sent out to a lab, an instant test will not work since it can have too many false positives. A lab drug test will cost somewhere around $300. Now do the math on this, take all the people on welfare, hire someone to supervise drug test all of them (that would mean many someones) and now send all those to a lab and cost at least $300 a pop. That's not cheap. At all.
Second of all, most of the hardcore drug users usually get medicaid when they get into a treatment facility of some sort. Since if they are that interested in using drugs, they aren't going to worry about recertifying when their medicaid/cash assistance runs out. Second of all, in a lot of states, medicaid/food stamps/cash assistance all have different requirements and different levels. They are not one and the same. A person can have medicaid (health insurance) but not be getting any cash assistance, or qualify for section 8 housing.
Third of all, its too black and white. Say a person has been coming to treatment for 5 months and has been clean and has a relapse and uses. They are due for a drug test the next day, are we going to not give them their assistance when they have been trying to clean up their lives and screwed up. That's not right. Relapses happen, no body is perfect. Instead now that person has not only relapsed, but has no money for the month. That's a gray area, and how does another person determine whether or not that person gets their assistance.
Also, in a lot of states, in order to get cash assistance (Cal, that's the person you saw getting money the one day) they do need to a drug and alcohol screen. If that screen shows problems, then they have to go get an assessment done by a clinic. if that assessment recommends counseling, they have to follow through, or else their money gets "sanctioned" for 45 days and they have to do the process again. I also would have to send progress reports to DSS regarding their attendance. This was in NYS, by the way, one of the worst states when it comes to welfare abuse.
The biggest welfare abusers are not your drug addicts. They are girls who get pregnant not knowing/caring who the father is, they are guys getting girls pregnant and not taking responsibility. It is the lack of accountability that ruins the welfare system. It is the state passing the buck on to other people instead of working from the inside to start new programs. Not drug addicts. Instead of drug testing everyone, systems need to be put in place for early education, preventative measures. I would rather have money go to a drug addict than some woman who has 6 kids and doesn't know who the dad/care who the dad is.
I spent 3 years working with people with chronic addictions. I worked with people from all socio-economic backgrounds. I think its an absolute shame that some of these people who did work hard but addiction was stronger are made to feel such shame for getting assistance when they need it the most. I spent many a session with some of my clients talking to them about how its ok to ask for help when they need it.
Are they people who abuse welfare? Absolutely, but drug testing will no where near come close to even fixing any of it. It won't do anything but cost more money and be harder to enforce, because of the gray areas. Also I feel like this stance has become a politicians way of making it seem like they are going to do something different. Except, its just not really feasible to put in place.
Oh, here's a totally different unpopular opinion - I believe children under age 10 who are morbidly obese are abused, and I believe their parents should be brought up on charges and forced to attend nutritional courses and work with a nutritional counselor or else face heavy fines and community service and ultimately jail time.
Something funny - FI used to smoke before we started dating, and he is very anti-cigarettes, but he HATES the public service advertisements against smoking because he says it does no good and it just makes him want to smoke to spite them. I don't get his thinking, but that's what he says.
Disclaimer: I don't think the children should be punished no matter who the parents are by the way, and I would not say yank welfare from that person and let the child suffer.
Haha, I'm not going to quote you Sara because that's really long, but I totally see what you're saying.
I think the person who bothers me the most about welfare abuse is a friend of mine who intentionally got pregnant with her boyfriend, who lives with her though his 'official address' is with his parents. He makes a very good salary, she makes a small but very acceptable salary, yet she claims she's a single parent with no support of the father and the lease is in her name. So she gets HUGE support financially from the government. They won't get married because she won't get that much money from the government if they did. It's deceptive and I think it's fraud, honestly. I respect her a lot less because of it.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:ee07ac61-8c00-438b-8145-b655ec558223">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]Haha, I'm not going to quote you Sara because that's really long, but I totally see what you're saying. I think the person who bothers me the most about welfare abuse is a friend of mine who intentionally got pregnant with her boyfriend, who lives with her though his 'official address' is with his parents. He makes a very good salary, she makes a small but very acceptable salary, yet she claims she's a single parent with no support of the father and the lease is in her name. So she gets HUGE support financially from the government. They won't get married because she won't get that much money from the government if they did. It's deceptive and I think it's fraud, honestly. I respect her a lot less because of it. Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]
And this is my point! Nothing in that is about drugs right? I do know that there are people who are addicts abuse welfare, but I am going to take a guess and say a majority is stories like yours. I would rather have money go into programs to help educate/stop people like her than wasting money on drug testing. that won't do anything really. Except probably discourage more addicts from getting help since they won't want to go to DSS since they would fail a drug test and not get help anyway.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:0f8c81ea-62c8-4d78-b6df-d48732ac3f16">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : And this is my point! Nothing in that is about drugs right? I do know that there are people who are addicts abuse welfare, but I am going to take a guess and say a majority is stories like yours. I would rather have money go into programs to help educate/stop people like her than wasting money on drug testing. that won't do anything really. Except probably discourage more addicts from getting help since they won't want to go to DSS since they would fail a drug test and not get help anyway. Posted by ggirl2001[/QUOTE]
Right, no drugs. I never said I thought we should have drug tests - I do think the welfare system needs reforms, but I don't know enough to know what they need to be in order to be effective in curbing frivolous payouts.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:226e443b-177b-47f6-9858-7e839d155973">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : I get that, but I think that counseling, drug testing, home visits all of that should be part of receiving assistance. It would create jobs too no? Posted by SamiJoeB[/QUOTE]
I agree. I do - I don't think drug addicts should be on Welfare. I completely support the drug testing of welfare and government assistance. I think it would be great if more could be done to help those who want it, help them overcome their addiction. All I was saying was you can't help an addict if they don't want the help.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:aa135a42-92a0-4ef2-88e0-f20b1ea84b23">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : HECK YES! 100% agree. I worked as a cashier during high school. OMG! The most heart breaking people were the ones that would put back the healthy food (fruits/veggies) because they couldn't afford their junk food with it. This is unpopular, but I think that they should get rid of the card and<strong> give people vouchers like WIC. They get free Milk, Veggies, Juice, Meat.... whatever they NEED to live on. And if they want pizza and chips. Buy that with your own money. </strong>Posted by AmandaSC1988[/QUOTE]
I agree with this idea - I truly love how WIC specifies what they can buy - and they are healthy things too. It would make much more sense if food stamps worked this way.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:1b9f50e5-7e84-42ba-b1ef-358763c57bc6">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : Right, no drugs. I never said I thought we should have drug tests - I do think the welfare system needs reforms, but I don't know enough to know what they need to be in order to be effective in curbing frivolous payouts. Posted by calindi[/QUOTE] Oh I know you didn't I was just using this as an example. I work pretty closely with Department of social services in my job, and i know abuse can be happening any which way by any person. I just can't connect in my head how drug testing a welfare recipient is going to stop somebody from having 6 kids with different dads and lying about where the dads, are etc. The person who is getting the most money a month is the person with the kids, not the drug lone drug addict. Now if the drug addict has children, hopefully, at some point, child protective services is called and they are removed from the home. In a perfect world, that would happen, but CPS is so understaffed in pretty much every state, with no funding, that it doesn't happen. There are just so many flaws in the system that need to be fixed before drug testing happens.
I get that there are a TON of women on Welfare - but there are some addicts too - and I'm not talking about those who are trying to stop. Welfare needs a serious reform - I don't know all the in's and out's but there are some serious issues going on. People like Cali mentioned who abuse the system. It's wrong. There are people who use it and need it to get back on their feet - that is what its there for. I don't think it should be allowed to be a long term option.
I get the whole, people abusing the system are more likely to be mothers with 5 or 5 kids to different men thing but, where I live, the people who have 6 kids to get more welfare money are also the ones using drugs and having withdrawl babies that live in the NICU for a month or 2 while mom doesn't even visit and then, somehow, fall through the cracks in the CYS system and go back to mom. Drug testing would help in my area. When DH and I went to the social security office to get my new card when we got married, there were 3 or 4 people in there that you could clearly tell were on something. I really think it depends on the area whether it would do anything or not.
In the end if I had to pick the mom with 6 kids to unknown fathers or the drug addict, I would choose the mother. I would rather choose neither. No one forced that woman to have those kids and no one forced a crack pipe in the drug addict's mouth. They both made poor decisions and I don't think that we should be ignoring that just because it's not the ideal solution. We are teaching people it's okay and that's why the cycle is perpetuated. "If my mom can smoke crack, not work, and get away with not feeding me then I can do it to" It's going to be a combination of checks and balances that will fix the system, not just one thing or another, but, it is a huge problem and every area has a different problem in regards to the system.
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In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:6a7d7691-9ea0-47fe-9887-e83bf2e6ef37">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]I get the whole, people abusing the system are more likely to be mothers with 5 or 5 kids to different men thing but, where I live, the people who have 6 kids to get more welfare money are also the ones using drugs and having withdrawl babies that live in the NICU for a month or 2 while mom doesn't even visit and then, somehow, fall through the cracks in the CYS system and go back to mom. Drug testing would help in my area. When DH and I went to the social security office to get my new card when we got married, there were 3 or 4 people in there that you could clearly tell were on something. I really think it depends on the area whether it would do anything or not. <strong>In the end if I had to pick the mom with 6 kids to unknown fathers or the drug addict, I would choose the mother. I would rather choose neither. No one forced that woman to have those kids and no one forced a crack pipe in the drug addict's mouth. They both made poor decisions and I don't think that we should be ignoring that just because it's not the ideal solution. We are teaching people it's okay and that's why the cycle is perpetuated. "If my mom can smoke crack, not work, and get away with not feeding me then I can do it to" It's going to be a combination of checks and balances that will fix the system, not just one thing or another, but, it is a huge problem and every area has a different problem in regards to the system. </strong>Posted by Sammy0709[/QUOTE]
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:6a7d7691-9ea0-47fe-9887-e83bf2e6ef37">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]I get the whole, people abusing the system are more likely to be mothers with 5 or 5 kids to different men thing but, where I live, the people who have 6 kids to get more welfare money are also the ones using drugs and having withdrawl babies that live in the NICU for a month or 2 while mom doesn't even visit and then, somehow, fall through the cracks in the CYS system and go back to mom. Drug testing would help in my area. When DH and I went to the social security office to get my new card when we got married, there were 3 or 4 people in there that you could clearly tell were on something. I really think it depends on the area whether it would do anything or not. In the end if I had to pick the mom with 6 kids to unknown fathers or the drug addict, I would choose the mother. I would rather choose neither. No one forced that woman to have those kids and no one forced a crack pipe in the drug addict's mouth. They both made poor decisions and I don't think that we should be ignoring that just because it's not the ideal solution. We are teaching people it's okay and that's why the cycle is perpetuated. "If my mom can smoke crack, not work, and get away with not feeding me then I can do it to" It's going to be a combination of checks and balances that will fix the system, not just one thing or another, but, it is a huge problem and every area has a different problem in regards to the system. Posted by Sammy0709[/QUOTE]
And this is my problem, drug testing won't fix pretty much any of this KWIM? Instead people will just have kids, not get assistance, and the state probably won't step up either. I just feel like politicans throw out there that they are going to drug test welfare recipients and all of a sudden people believe that will fix it, not realizing that is only a small part of the problem. The problem is in the lack of accountability with everyone. The state has no funding for child protective services, so the child goes back with the parents who can't provide due to their addiction/education/mental health. That child learns from them, and the cycle perpetuates it. Drug testing the parents probably isn't going to stop that child from using the system, but having more programs for child and parents might.
To clarify, I'm not disagreeing that system as a whole is pretty much failing. I am disagreeing when people just throw out blanket statements that people should be drug tested for welfare.
I don't think saying they should be tested for drugs is a blanket statement or outlandish other than the potential cost. People get tested for their jobs all the time. For all intents and purposes welfare might as well be a job, they just get paid to do nothing. Other than the cost, I don't see anything wrong with it.
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To twist the topic ever so slightly, the unemployment system is also broken.
I filed for unemployment in May. I did not get a response until October. Um... I needed that money to pay rent in between! If my parents hadn't helped me, I don't know what I would have done.
And-plus-also, they deduct dollar-for-dollar what you earn from what you're eligible for. Which means if you can find work, but it won't make more than you're making on unemployment, there is absolutely no incentive for you to take it.
I propose doing a $0.50 to the $1.00 system - they deduct $0.50 from the unemployment benefits for every $1.00 you make. That will save the taxpayers money, while at the same time giving people incentive to take any job.
Oh wow... I don't even know where to begin with all of this. Mostly it's just made me realize that I have very conflicted views on these issues. I'm anti-abortion (and to those who think "it's not a living person until it's born" - I think that's crap), but I don't think it should ever be illegal. However, I believe it needs more and better regulations. As for gay marriage... sure, why not. I don't see the difference in a "civil union" and a "marriage" in the government's eyes.
As for welfare, the whole system is just effed up. I'm so sick of seeing people on welfare/cash assistance/Medicaid that can afford brand new cars, iPhones, and designer clothes. It's not an easy fix though, what we really need is for people to pull their heads out of their asses and realize that nobody "owes" them anything. I realize this might be flameworthy, but here where I am, I feel like there's a portion of the African-American population who truly believes that "the government owes them because of slavery" and that is just pure, unalduturated crap. People do it because their mama, grandmama, greatgrandmama, and so on did it this way, and who's going to want to work when they can do nothing and still get paid?
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:e56439e7-9f49-46b7-afcb-ca64690b472b">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]I don't think saying they should be tested for drugs is a blanket statement or outlandish other than the potential cost. People get tested for their jobs all the time. For all intents and purposes welfare might as well be a job, they just get paid to do nothing. Other than the cost, I don't see anything wrong with it. Posted by Sammy0709[/QUOTE] I guess one perhaps unquantifiable aspect though <span style="font-style:italic;">is </span>the cost. I don't know how many people are on welfare, but I'd venture to guess it's a fuckton.
So, here's my potentially unpopular opinion - I do no in any way, shape, or form believe that health insurance is a right. I believe that everyone has the right to receive health care, but that does not mean you have the right to health insurance. Insurance is a priviledge, not a right.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:e56439e7-9f49-46b7-afcb-ca64690b472b">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]I don't think saying they should be tested for drugs is a blanket statement or outlandish other than the potential cost. People get tested for their jobs all the time. For all intents and purposes welfare might as well be a job, they just get paid to do nothing. Other than the cost, I don't see anything wrong with it. Posted by Sammy0709[/QUOTE]
. Because you run into a gray area as well. If a person has been clean and relapses do they still get the money? What if a person is in treatment but struggling with use, do they get money? Or I'll go this way too, a lot of people are prescribed opiates, which are highly addicting. It will show up on a drug test, how do you know that person also isn't addicted, abusing their pills, and on welfare?
And since I can't edit, it still does nothing to solve the problem of the cycle of abuse of the system. Could it help, maybe? But it's not even close to a fix, yet every state feels like that's what they should implement.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_discussion-friday?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:dbcd06b5-688b-40a5-ae0b-db97dd439a69Post:c652ce4c-83e6-40a3-ba27-a91511ca4755">Re: Discussion Friday!</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : . Because you run into a gray area as well. If a person has been clean and relapses do they still get the money? What if a person is in treatment but struggling with use, do they get money? Or I'll go this way too, a lot of people are prescribed opiates, which are highly addicting. It will show up on a drug test, how do you know that person also isn't addicted, abusing their pills, and on welfare? Posted by ggirl2001[/QUOTE]
Like any new implemented program - they will need to create guidelines to go with it. You can't just start drug testing people and say those who fail arn't on it. Ex - Those who are on perscription narcotics and opiats - they will have to prove they are on a perscription, and they should have regulations on filling those (I know on base they do, you can't fill a 30 day script 10 days into it - not sure about out in town). They would really just need to sit down and create guidelines and stipulations with the drug testing program.
Re: Discussion Friday!
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : Yes I do. However, but I think that if you can't feed your children because of your addictions, you need to find some help! Not to be a hard-ass or anything but I mean there are free or low cost rehab programs all over the country.. you're clearly willing to accept monatary assistance, why not mental/psychological help as well?
Posted by SamiJoeB[/QUOTE]
I agree - and logically anyone would quit if you can't feed yourself or your children. But a true addict doesn't see it that way. Their number 1 priority is that drug of choice. Everything and I truly mean everything else comes second to that. They have $50 to spend and have to chose between their drug of choice and food - they'll chose that drug of choice. Addicts don't think clearly - they don't think logically or rationally. Addiction really turns them into a completely different person. Their chain of thoughts and reasoning isn't the same as a normal non-addict person.
[QUOTE]<strong>My point with the, letting them use welfare money on cigarettes, thing was that, if they are smoking a pack or 2 a day, they're spending at least $50 a week on cigarettes that they should be spending on food and clothing for their kiids.</strong> That's why welfare recipients are no longer to use that money on cigarettes in PA. <strong>Also, in respiratory school, we learned that those on welfare (and those of lower classes) are more likely to be smokers. It dumbfounds me almost because, if you can barely feed your kids then why are you spending money on something that is not a necessity. I understand that you are addicted and it is a disease but, as a respiratory therapist student I had the opporunity to work with pulmonary rehab programs and have seen people quit by simply cutting back a little at a time.</strong> That costs people LESS money. <strong>Granted, these are men and women who are to the point of desperation in a lot of cases where they need oxygen 24/7, have had lung transplants, are trying to get more time with their kids and grandkids but, why does it have to come to that for people to quit? </strong> <u>We will spend more money through medicaid taking care of the people that are smoking and are unfortunate enough to end up with pulmonary diseases than we would if we spent the money on smoking cessation programs.</u> It broke my heart to see these people going through this. I sat through a pulmonologist appointment during my schooling with a man that wished he had quit sooner. He had maybe a few months left and to see the heartbreak it caused him and his wife...I just wanted to cry. Addiction to cigarettes is a disease but it is one that doesn't have to happen and it is one that causes worse problems in the end. ETA: I just feel very strongly about smoking cessation. Everyone wants to look at it as a burden but it really isn't.
Posted by Sammy0709[/QUOTE]
It's an addiction, but a completely unnecessary one! I agree 100% with EVERYTHING that Sammy is saying (So much so that I nearly bolded everything she said!).. Why as a tax payer should I be supporting someone else's bad habit? I would much rather that money go towards helping them quit. It's not like it's this big secret that smoking is bad for you. Smoking can and in a lot of cases will eventually kill you. Taking the attitude that "We'll all die sometime" is just plain lazy.
Smoking isn't the only addiction I take issue with though, people who are addicted to food and are thus morbidly obese, or people who are addicted to tanning and thus have skin cancer. All of these things are preventable and treatable, so why as a society do we just feed the habit? rather than help the person suffering to stop.
[QUOTE]Even not addicts - I<strong> see people in Miami chatting on iPhones at the check-out, carrying a designer handbag and wearing expensive clothes, buying beer and ice cream and frozen junk food and cookies, </strong>and they pay using EBT and then get a lot of cash back. I didn't even know you could get cash back from food stamps, but apparently you can! It disgusts me. I'd really like to pay for more clothes or an iPhone, but I can't because I'm paying taxes so you can buy your beer and ice cream and get cash back to pay your iPhone bill.
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]
HECK YES! 100% agree. I worked as a cashier during high school. OMG! The most heart breaking people were the ones that would put back the healthy food (fruits/veggies) because they couldn't afford their junk food with it. This is unpopular, but I think that they should get rid of the card and give people vouchers like WIC. They get free Milk, Veggies, Juice, Meat.... whatever they NEED to live on. And if they want pizza and chips. Buy that with your own money.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : I agree - and logically anyone would quit if you can't feed yourself or your children. But a true addict doesn't see it that way. Their number 1 priority is that drug of choice. Everything and I truly mean everything else comes second to that. They have $50 to spend and have to chose between their drug of choice and food - they'll chose that drug of choice. Addicts don't think clearly - they don't think logically or rationally. Addiction really turns them into a completely different person. Their chain of thoughts and reasoning isn't the same as a normal non-addict person.
Posted by amh04[/QUOTE]
I get that, but I think that counseling, drug testing, home visits all of that should be part of receiving assistance. It would create jobs too no?
Ok, to sum it up-
I am pro choice AND pro abortion.
I think people should be drug tested for Welfare
I don't care if you're gay, straight, polygamist, or marrying a cow. If it doesn't affect me in my day to day life, it's not my business. I will keep my beliefs on religion and "what's right" to my own life. Kthanks.
Immigration laws are there to protect us. And, although my mom was an illegal immigrant coming into this country, I think it's important to have these laws. Sorry momma, but you was wrong! LOL! She's legal now, though.
That's all I've got. I have no energy today.
Now on to addiction, welfare and drug testing. Drug testing welfare recipients will do absolutely nothing to stop the abuse of welfare. Mostly because the people who are using welfare aren't your hardcore drug addicts. All the examples people provided on this post said nothing about that person using drugs.
First of all, in order to properly execute a drug test, it needs to be supervised. yes that would create jobs, but it would also cost money. Money that governments already don't have. It is very easy to fake a drug test if it is not supervised. Secondly, it needs to be sent out to a lab, an instant test will not work since it can have too many false positives. A lab drug test will cost somewhere around $300.
Now do the math on this, take all the people on welfare, hire someone to supervise drug test all of them (that would mean many someones) and now send all those to a lab and cost at least $300 a pop. That's not cheap. At all.
Second of all, most of the hardcore drug users usually get medicaid when they get into a treatment facility of some sort. Since if they are that interested in using drugs, they aren't going to worry about recertifying when their medicaid/cash assistance runs out. Second of all, in a lot of states, medicaid/food stamps/cash assistance all have different requirements and different levels. They are not one and the same. A person can have medicaid (health insurance) but not be getting any cash assistance, or qualify for section 8 housing.
Third of all, its too black and white. Say a person has been coming to treatment for 5 months and has been clean and has a relapse and uses. They are due for a drug test the next day, are we going to not give them their assistance when they have been trying to clean up their lives and screwed up. That's not right. Relapses happen, no body is perfect. Instead now that person has not only relapsed, but has no money for the month. That's a gray area, and how does another person determine whether or not that person gets their assistance.
Also, in a lot of states, in order to get cash assistance (Cal, that's the person you saw getting money the one day) they do need to a drug and alcohol screen. If that screen shows problems, then they have to go get an assessment done by a clinic. if that assessment recommends counseling, they have to follow through, or else their money gets "sanctioned" for 45 days and they have to do the process again. I also would have to send progress reports to DSS regarding their attendance. This was in NYS, by the way, one of the worst states when it comes to welfare abuse.
The biggest welfare abusers are not your drug addicts. They are girls who get pregnant not knowing/caring who the father is, they are guys getting girls pregnant and not taking responsibility. It is the lack of accountability that ruins the welfare system. It is the state passing the buck on to other people instead of working from the inside to start new programs. Not drug addicts. Instead of drug testing everyone, systems need to be put in place for early education, preventative measures. I would rather have money go to a drug addict than some woman who has 6 kids and doesn't know who the dad/care who the dad is.
I spent 3 years working with people with chronic addictions. I worked with people from all socio-economic backgrounds. I think its an absolute shame that some of these people who did work hard but addiction was stronger are made to feel such shame for getting assistance when they need it the most. I spent many a session with some of my clients talking to them about how its ok to ask for help when they need it.
Are they people who abuse welfare? Absolutely, but drug testing will no where near come close to even fixing any of it. It won't do anything but cost more money and be harder to enforce, because of the gray areas. Also I feel like this stance has become a politicians way of making it seem like they are going to do something different. Except, its just not really feasible to put in place.
Something funny - FI used to smoke before we started dating, and he is very anti-cigarettes, but he HATES the public service advertisements against smoking because he says it does no good and it just makes him want to smoke to spite them. I don't get his thinking, but that's what he says.
I think the person who bothers me the most about welfare abuse is a friend of mine who intentionally got pregnant with her boyfriend, who lives with her though his 'official address' is with his parents. He makes a very good salary, she makes a small but very acceptable salary, yet she claims she's a single parent with no support of the father and the lease is in her name. So she gets HUGE support financially from the government. They won't get married because she won't get that much money from the government if they did. It's deceptive and I think it's fraud, honestly. I respect her a lot less because of it.
[QUOTE]Haha, I'm not going to quote you Sara because that's really long, but I totally see what you're saying. I think the person who bothers me the most about welfare abuse is a friend of mine who intentionally got pregnant with her boyfriend, who lives with her though his 'official address' is with his parents. He makes a very good salary, she makes a small but very acceptable salary, yet she claims she's a single parent with no support of the father and the lease is in her name. So she gets HUGE support financially from the government. They won't get married because she won't get that much money from the government if they did. It's deceptive and I think it's fraud, honestly. I respect her a lot less because of it.
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]
And this is my point! Nothing in that is about drugs right? I do know that there are people who are addicts abuse welfare, but I am going to take a guess and say a majority is stories like yours. I would rather have money go into programs to help educate/stop people like her than wasting money on drug testing. that won't do anything really. Except probably discourage more addicts from getting help since they won't want to go to DSS since they would fail a drug test and not get help anyway.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : And this is my point! Nothing in that is about drugs right? I do know that there are people who are addicts abuse welfare, but I am going to take a guess and say a majority is stories like yours. I would rather have money go into programs to help educate/stop people like her than wasting money on drug testing. that won't do anything really. Except probably discourage more addicts from getting help since they won't want to go to DSS since they would fail a drug test and not get help anyway.
Posted by ggirl2001[/QUOTE]
Right, no drugs. I never said I thought we should have drug tests - I do think the welfare system needs reforms, but I don't know enough to know what they need to be in order to be effective in curbing frivolous payouts.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : I get that, but I think that counseling, drug testing, home visits all of that should be part of receiving assistance. It would create jobs too no?
Posted by SamiJoeB[/QUOTE]
I agree. I do - I don't think drug addicts should be on Welfare. I completely support the drug testing of welfare and government assistance. I think it would be great if more could be done to help those who want it, help them overcome their addiction.
All I was saying was you can't help an addict if they don't want the help.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : HECK YES! 100% agree. I worked as a cashier during high school. OMG! The most heart breaking people were the ones that would put back the healthy food (fruits/veggies) because they couldn't afford their junk food with it. This is unpopular, but I think that they should get rid of the card and<strong> give people vouchers like WIC. They get free Milk, Veggies, Juice, Meat.... whatever they NEED to live on. And if they want pizza and chips. Buy that with your own money.
</strong>Posted by AmandaSC1988[/QUOTE]
I agree with this idea - I truly love how WIC specifies what they can buy - and they are healthy things too. It would make much more sense if food stamps worked this way.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : Right, no drugs. I never said I thought we should have drug tests - I do think the welfare system needs reforms, but I don't know enough to know what they need to be in order to be effective in curbing frivolous payouts.
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]
Oh I know you didn't I was just using this as an example. I work pretty closely with Department of social services in my job, and i know abuse can be happening any which way by any person. I just can't connect in my head how drug testing a welfare recipient is going to stop somebody from having 6 kids with different dads and lying about where the dads, are etc. The person who is getting the most money a month is the person with the kids, not the drug lone drug addict. Now if the drug addict has children, hopefully, at some point, child protective services is called and they are removed from the home. In a perfect world, that would happen, but CPS is so understaffed in pretty much every state, with no funding, that it doesn't happen. There are just so many flaws in the system that need to be fixed before drug testing happens.
Welfare needs a serious reform - I don't know all the in's and out's but there are some serious issues going on. People like Cali mentioned who abuse the system. It's wrong. There are people who use it and need it to get back on their feet - that is what its there for. I don't think it should be allowed to be a long term option.
In the end if I had to pick the mom with 6 kids to unknown fathers or the drug addict, I would choose the mother. I would rather choose neither. No one forced that woman to have those kids and no one forced a crack pipe in the drug addict's mouth. They both made poor decisions and I don't think that we should be ignoring that just because it's not the ideal solution. We are teaching people it's okay and that's why the cycle is perpetuated. "If my mom can smoke crack, not work, and get away with not feeding me then I can do it to" It's going to be a combination of checks and balances that will fix the system, not just one thing or another, but, it is a huge problem and every area has a different problem in regards to the system.
[QUOTE]I get the whole, people abusing the system are more likely to be mothers with 5 or 5 kids to different men thing but, where I live, the people who have 6 kids to get more welfare money are also the ones using drugs and having withdrawl babies that live in the NICU for a month or 2 while mom doesn't even visit and then, somehow, fall through the cracks in the CYS system and go back to mom. Drug testing would help in my area. When DH and I went to the social security office to get my new card when we got married, there were 3 or 4 people in there that you could clearly tell were on something. I really think it depends on the area whether it would do anything or not. <strong>In the end if I had to pick the mom with 6 kids to unknown fathers or the drug addict, I would choose the mother. I would rather choose neither. No one forced that woman to have those kids and no one forced a crack pipe in the drug addict's mouth. They both made poor decisions and I don't think that we should be ignoring that just because it's not the ideal solution. We are teaching people it's okay and that's why the cycle is perpetuated. "If my mom can smoke crack, not work, and get away with not feeding me then I can do it to" It's going to be a combination of checks and balances that will fix the system, not just one thing or another, but, it is a huge problem and every area has a different problem in regards to the system.
</strong>Posted by Sammy0709[/QUOTE]
THIS. Exactly.
[QUOTE]I get the whole, people abusing the system are more likely to be mothers with 5 or 5 kids to different men thing but, where I live, the people who have 6 kids to get more welfare money are also the ones using drugs and having withdrawl babies that live in the NICU for a month or 2 while mom doesn't even visit and then, somehow, fall through the cracks in the CYS system and go back to mom. Drug testing would help in my area. When DH and I went to the social security office to get my new card when we got married, there were 3 or 4 people in there that you could clearly tell were on something. I really think it depends on the area whether it would do anything or not. In the end if I had to pick the mom with 6 kids to unknown fathers or the drug addict, I would choose the mother. I would rather choose neither. No one forced that woman to have those kids and no one forced a crack pipe in the drug addict's mouth. They both made poor decisions and I don't think that we should be ignoring that just because it's not the ideal solution. We are teaching people it's okay and that's why the cycle is perpetuated. "If my mom can smoke crack, not work, and get away with not feeding me then I can do it to" It's going to be a combination of checks and balances that will fix the system, not just one thing or another, but, it is a huge problem and every area has a different problem in regards to the system.
Posted by Sammy0709[/QUOTE]
And this is my problem, drug testing won't fix pretty much any of this KWIM? Instead people will just have kids, not get assistance, and the state probably won't step up either. I just feel like politicans throw out there that they are going to drug test welfare recipients and all of a sudden people believe that will fix it, not realizing that is only a small part of the problem. The problem is in the lack of accountability with everyone. The state has no funding for child protective services, so the child goes back with the parents who can't provide due to their addiction/education/mental health. That child learns from them, and the cycle perpetuates it. Drug testing the parents probably isn't going to stop that child from using the system, but having more programs for child and parents might.
To clarify, I'm not disagreeing that system as a whole is pretty much failing. I am disagreeing when people just throw out blanket statements that people should be drug tested for welfare.
I filed for unemployment in May. I did not get a response until October. Um... I needed that money to pay rent in between! If my parents hadn't helped me, I don't know what I would have done.
And-plus-also, they deduct dollar-for-dollar what you earn from what you're eligible for. Which means if you can find work, but it won't make more than you're making on unemployment, there is absolutely no incentive for you to take it.
I propose doing a $0.50 to the $1.00 system - they deduct $0.50 from the unemployment benefits for every $1.00 you make. That will save the taxpayers money, while at the same time giving people incentive to take any job.
As for welfare, the whole system is just effed up. I'm so sick of seeing people on welfare/cash assistance/Medicaid that can afford brand new cars, iPhones, and designer clothes. It's not an easy fix though, what we really need is for people to pull their heads out of their asses and realize that nobody "owes" them anything. I realize this might be flameworthy, but here where I am, I feel like there's a portion of the African-American population who truly believes that "the government owes them because of slavery" and that is just pure, unalduturated crap. People do it because their mama, grandmama, greatgrandmama, and so on did it this way, and who's going to want to work when they can do nothing and still get paid?
[QUOTE]I don't think saying they should be tested for drugs is a blanket statement or outlandish other than the potential cost. People get tested for their jobs all the time. For all intents and purposes welfare might as well be a job, they just get paid to do nothing. Other than the cost, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Posted by Sammy0709[/QUOTE]
I guess one perhaps unquantifiable aspect though <span style="font-style:italic;">is </span>the cost. I don't know how many people are on welfare, but I'd venture to guess it's a fuckton.
[QUOTE]I don't think saying they should be tested for drugs is a blanket statement or outlandish other than the potential cost. People get tested for their jobs all the time. For all intents and purposes welfare might as well be a job, they just get paid to do nothing. Other than the cost, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Posted by Sammy0709[/QUOTE]
.
Because you run into a gray area as well. If a person has been clean and relapses do they still get the money? What if a person is in treatment but struggling with use, do they get money? Or I'll go this way too, a lot of people are prescribed opiates, which are highly addicting. It will show up on a drug test, how do you know that person also isn't addicted, abusing their pills, and on welfare?
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discussion Friday! : . Because you run into a gray area as well. If a person has been clean and relapses do they still get the money? What if a person is in treatment but struggling with use, do they get money? Or I'll go this way too, a lot of people are prescribed opiates, which are highly addicting. It will show up on a drug test, how do you know that person also isn't addicted, abusing their pills, and on welfare?
Posted by ggirl2001[/QUOTE]
Like any new implemented program - they will need to create guidelines to go with it. You can't just start drug testing people and say those who fail arn't on it.
Ex - Those who are on perscription narcotics and opiats - they will have to prove they are on a perscription, and they should have regulations on filling those (I know on base they do, you can't fill a 30 day script 10 days into it - not sure about out in town).
They would really just need to sit down and create guidelines and stipulations with the drug testing program.