Birth rape?

RupertPenny · May 2012

I get the sentiment of wanting to minimize the amount of medical intervention. I mean, that's how I live my life in general, I try to only use drugs as the last resort (I still go to the doctor and I am on rx meds so I'm not totally avoiding medicine or anything) so I don't see why my attitude about that would change during pregnancy/labor.

baystateapple · May 2012

I love hearing about the birth plans that get right down to the whole idea of what music should be played, and people are not allowed to walk by the room during certain hours (how would you manage that in a crowded hospital wing?), and people may only speak in light whispers, etc.

I told my mom as a joke that if and when I'm ready to deliver, I'm going to have a mock birth plan that says I want Metallica blasted as loudly as possible while I'm in labor.

baystateapple · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:ef60553a-2131-4daf-b5ba-13996d718248">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]I get the sentiment of wanting to minimize the amount of medical intervention. I mean, that's how I live my life in general, I try to only use drugs as the last resort (I still go to the doctor and I am on rx meds so I'm not totally avoiding medicine or anything) so I don't see why my attitude about that would change during pregnancy/labor.
Posted by RupertPenny[/QUOTE]
And I can completely respect that, Anna. That's a "birth plan" that makes sense.

Snippylynn · May 2012

Ha! That would be hilarious.

september's bride · May 2012

Oh, this whole thing is so irritating. People get so up-in-arms over their birth war stories, and it's so silly. Did you welcome a baby into the world? Yes? Congratulations. I don't care if they had to install a zipper to get the baby out - be thankful your child arrived safely.

My doctor asked me if I had a birth plan, and I told her that I plan to arrive at the hospital and I plan to leave with my baby. She was so surprised that she hugged me. I guess that mentality really is rare these days.

adamar15 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:ef60553a-2131-4daf-b5ba-13996d718248">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]I get the sentiment of wanting to minimize the amount of medical intervention. I mean, that's how I live my life in general, I try to only use drugs as the last resort (I still go to the doctor and I am on rx meds so I'm not totally avoiding medicine or anything) so I don't see why my attitude about that would change during pregnancy/labor.
Posted by RupertPenny[/QUOTE]

I get it too, but there's definitely a line.

Snippylynn · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:f92f50a4-f482-4de7-af52-061002f7dd99">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]Oh, this whole thing is so irritating. People get so up-in-arms over their birth war stories, and it's so silly. Did you welcome a baby into the world? Yes? Congratulations. I don't care if they had to install a zipper to get the baby out - be thankful your child arrived safely. My doctor asked me if I had a birth plan, and I told her that I plan to arrive at the hospital and I plan to leave with my baby. She was so surprised that she hugged me. I guess that mentality really is rare these days.
Posted by september's bride[/QUOTE]
Love this.

baystateapple · May 2012

The thing is, the doctors have an obligation to deliver a healthy baby, no matter what. I can understand mothers not wanting medical intervention, epidurals, c-sections, etc. But would you (hypothetical you, not directed at anyone in particular) really put the birth plan above having a baby born alive and healthy?

I wonder how this woman would be feeling about her birth plan if the doctors hadn't intervened, and the baby died.

RupertPenny · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:1bc8a5dc-a412-4362-bb04-836d7a1d9562">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Birth rape? : I get it too, but there's definitely a line.
Posted by adamar15[/QUOTE]

<div>Yeah, for sure. It still bothers me when people put down this line of thinking though. I don't think everyone should avoid all types of medication, and I don't push it on people, it's just how I think about myself and my body. It's the reason I do NFP when I could just take the pill and stuff like that though, and I know some people think I'm crazy because of it. I don't plan on giving birth out in the wilderness or anything, but I will likely decline an epi and pitocin and things like that if I don't really need them. </div><div>
</div><div>ETA: I would obviously never but my health or my child's health in danger, I'm just saying I understand the desire to do things with the least amount of intervention possible. </div>

lyndausvi · May 2012

I do think there are too many c-sections these days. In St Thomas they were rare, in the states there are way more. I blame a lot of it on malpractice. People can and do sue for everything. Doctors are scared and I can't really blame them. I also think there are a few 'lazy' doctors who just don't want to have to wake up a 3am to deliver a baby or don't like having to reschedule an half-days worth of patients, etc. Using an excuse of "it's for medical reasons" is not something many women will challenge.

[Deleted User] · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:f92f50a4-f482-4de7-af52-061002f7dd99">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE] I don't care if they had to install a zipper to get the baby out - be thankful your child arrived safely.
Posted by september's bride[/QUOTE]
haha, word

september's bride · May 2012

See, I have ideas about pain management and stuff, and I've hired a doula for support because I know H will be stressed out too and having a hard time supporting me. BUT - those are very fluid things. If I need an epidural, I'll get one. If I can go without, great. I just want everyone to get through the process with the least amount of stress possible, and I'm not sure it's something you can reliably plan for.

I was at the hospital last year when a friend was in labour, and there was a girl in the triage section of the maternity ward who kind of scurried out of the room with her hands between her legs going, "umm....I can feel the baby's head...." and this nurse swooped in all "whooopsie daisy!" and whisked her away in a wheelchair. Point being, I doubt that girl's birth plan involved having her baby drop out in the middle of a hospital hallway.

[Deleted User] · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:7c0478d1-baa7-48c8-9b4f-54423da23ce9">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Birth rape? : Yeah, for sure. It still bothers me when people put down this line of thinking though. I don't think everyone should avoid all types of medication, and I don't push it on people, it's just how I think about myself and my body. It's the reason I do NFP when I could just take the pill and stuff like that though, and I know some people think I'm crazy because of it. I don't plan on giving birth out in the wilderness or anything, but I will likely decline an epi and pitocin and things like that if I don't really need them. Posted by RupertPenny[/QUOTE]

The line about the intervention bugged me. I understand wanting to have a plan and be drug free, etc, but the line reeks of "That damn hospital ruining my birth plan. Assholes." Like the doctors don't care about the health of the baby and mother, they are just making sure they get in their medical interventions because that's most important.

RupertPenny · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:352548f8-7dbb-477b-ba0d-5a870b5a9b58">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Birth rape? : The line about the intervention bugged me. I understand wanting to have a plan and be drug free, etc, but the line reeks of "That damn hospital ruining my birth plan. Assholes." Like the doctors don't care about the health of the baby and mother, they are just making sure they get in their medical interventions because that's most important.
Posted by Seshat411[/QUOTE]

<div>I agree that the women in this article is crazycakes, if that is what you are saying. And that we are not getting the whole story. But I don't think she is crazy for not wanting intervention. She just sounds out of touch with reality in general. </div>

[Deleted User] · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:7770f5cd-1a85-4466-8665-72965963e465">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Birth rape? : I agree that the women in this article is crazycakes, if that is what you are saying. And that we are not getting the whole story. But I don't think she is crazy for not wanting intervention. She just sounds out of touch with reality in general.
Posted by RupertPenny[/QUOTE]

No, I don't think anyone is crazy for not wanting intervention. But I do think it's crazy when you (general) act like the doctors are working against you when they are doing something that will make sure your baby is healthy during the labor process.

Not wanting intervention when the doctor tells you they are having a hard time finding a heart rate is crazy to me.

september's bride · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:8f14f092-e158-4af3-afeb-6107c76319f0">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Birth rape? : No, I don't think anyone is crazy for not wanting intervention. But I do think it's crazy when you (general) act like the doctors are working against you when they are doing something that will make sure your baby is healthy during the labor process. <strong>Not wanting intervention when the doctor tells you they are having a hard time finding a heart rate is crazy to me.
</strong>Posted by Seshat411[/QUOTE]

I know someone who is adamant that there will be <em>NO</em> fetal heartrate monitoring at all while she is in labour. The whole thing baffles me.

ETA: This mom-to-be has already encountered issues with a fluctuating fetal heartrate and has other health complications as well. I know some home births have little to no medical interventions, but this isn't one of those - she's going to the hospital and refusing all but emergency intervention. Though, how she'll know if there is a heartrate emergency is beyond me...

chelseamb11 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:f92f50a4-f482-4de7-af52-061002f7dd99">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]Oh, this whole thing is so irritating. People get so up-in-arms over their birth war stories, and it's so silly. Did you welcome a baby into the world? Yes? Congratulations. I don't care if they had to install a zipper to get the baby out - be thankful your child arrived safely. My doctor asked me if I had a birth plan, and <strong>I told her that I plan to arrive at the hospital and I plan to leave with my baby.</strong> She was so surprised that she hugged me. I guess that mentality really is rare these days.
Posted by september's bride[/QUOTE]

That is awesome.
I agree, the term rape, when it's not rape, drives me nuts.

MattsPenguin · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:7d73fe78-15a2-4013-9190-3c5efce9d56d">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]It also seems like this woman who claims that this happened to her had a C-section before. After one C-section, I know it's pretty much impossible to have a vaginal birth afterwards. At least, I feel like I've heard that.
Posted by cfaszews25[/QUOTE]

It's not impossible. It depends on the type of c-section. My mom had me through an emergency c-section, which requires a vertical cut. Because of that, she had to have c-sections with my brothers. My aunt on the other hand had the horizontal cut, and was allowed to VBAC her second child.

That is at least what I've been told. I'm sure that there is much more that goes into the decision of c-section or not depending on the situation.

I agree that the woman quoted in the article is not telling the entire story. That just sounds very strange.

MoonlightSilver · May 2012

There is actually a lot of evidence of doctors intentionally harming women during birth, ignoring what's medically necessary, and doing things that aren't medically necessary while lying to the mother and her partner/familiy. Some doctors use the ignorance of a birthing mother and/or her partner/family to abuse their power.

Are all doctors like this? No. Does it happen? Yes. A heck of a lot more than most people would believe. Do some women overreact and think something wasn't necessary when it actually was? Yes, but not as often as women are abused in the birthing room.

An interesting blog to read is http://myobsaidwhat.com/. Unfortunately, there's no fact checking (you must take the submitter at their word) but the number of horrible things being said in hospitals is disgusting.

The World Health Organization recommends that cesarean section rates be between 10% and 15% (clicky). The rate across American hospitals is 32.8% as of 2010 (clicky). This means that half of all c-sections are unncessary. The US has a horrible rate when it comes to deaths related to birth. We're obviously doing something wrong.

As for birth rape, that's a very personal topic. But I think if someone shoves their hand up inside of your vagina without warning, causing you to scream in pain for them to stop and crawl up the bed away from them - then you have a right to claim you were raped, whether it was a doctor or a guy you met at the bar. I wish I still had the link to that birth story. Unfortunately I don't, but the image will never leave my mind.

ETA: Planned home birth with a midwife is just as safe, if not safer, than having a hospital birth for a low-risk woman. Study 1 Study 2 High-risk pregnancies should always be taken care of by a doctor in a hospital setting.

ETA 2 (sorry): VBACs are safe for most women according to the ACOG (clicky).

RupertPenny · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:8f14f092-e158-4af3-afeb-6107c76319f0">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Birth rape? : No, I don't think anyone is crazy for not wanting intervention. But I do think it's crazy when you (general) act like the doctors are working against you when they are doing something that will make sure your baby is healthy during the labor process. Not wanting intervention when the doctor tells you they are having a hard time finding a heart rate is crazy to me.
Posted by Seshat411[/QUOTE]

<div>That's what I meant when I said she was out of touch with reality. I'm pretty sure we agree here. </div>

ErinG93 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:fa7aa0f2-4288-430c-a053-f854ab07f96f">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]There is actually a lot of evidence of doctors intentionally harming women during birth, ignoring what's medically necessary, and doing things that aren't medically necessary while lying to the mother and her partner/familiy. Some doctors use the ignorance of a birthing mother and/or her partner/family to abuse their power. Are all doctors like this? No. Does it happen? Yes. A heck of a lot more than most people would believe. Do some women overreact and think something wasn't necessary when it actually was? Yes, but not as often as women are abused in the birthing room. An interesting blog to read is <a href="http://myobsaidwhat.com/" rel="nofollow">http://myobsaidwhat.com/</a> . Unfortunately, there's no fact checking (you must take the submitter at their word) but the number of horrible things being said in hospitals is disgusting. The World Health Organization recommends that cesarean section rates be between 10% and 15% (clicky). The rate across American hospitals is 32.8% as of 2010 (clicky). This means that half of all c-sections are unncessary. The US has a horrible rate when it comes to deaths related to birth. We're obviously doing something wrong. As for birth rape, that's a very personal topic.<strong> But I think if someone shoves their hand up inside of your vagina without warning, causing you to scream in pain for them to stop and crawl up the bed away from them - then you have a right to claim you were raped, whether it was a doctor or a guy you met at the bar.</strong> I wish I still had the link to that birth story. Unfortunately I don't, but the image will never leave my mind.
Posted by MoonlightSilver[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>So, in 'birth rape' what is the alternative? Leaving the woman and child to die? I'm genuinely curious what your alternative is, if a doctor putting his hand in a vagina isn't an option during birth when something goes wrong.

</div>

RupertPenny · May 2012

I kind of think giving birth requires you to give general consent to having things put into your vagina. It would be nice for the doctor to warn you, but I don't think it equates with sexual assault.

MattsPenguin · May 2012

Not that there aren't doctors who perform c-sections willy-nilly, but isn't the c-section rate in America so high due in part to the elective c-sections? I have family members who have chosen when to deliver just for convenience. Or were they induced? I could be making stuff up. It's an incredibly invasive procedure that requires 6 weeks of recovery and not being able to lift anything.

baystateapple · May 2012

Doctors have to put their hands up there for various reasons -- to check the dilation of the cervix, to rotate the baby if the head is facing the wrong way, and others I'm sure I'm missing.

Again, if you don't want a doctor's hand up there, don't have a hospital birth. But don't try to sue someone if things don't go according to plan.

september's bride · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:07667f79-f3ab-4efa-b14a-fa8f3b4c1735">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]Not that there aren't doctors who perform c-sections willy-nilly, but isn't the c-section rate in America so high due in part to the elective c-sections? I have family members who have chosen when to deliver just for convenience. Or were they induced? I could be making stuff up. It's an incredibly invasive procedure that requires 6 weeks of recovery and not being able to lift anything.
Posted by MattsPenguin[/QUOTE]

There's also a huge fear in the American medical community of being sued for malpractice if things go wrong during a birth. Many doctors would rather opt for a c-section and ensure the baby is safely delivered than risk waiting for a problem to stabilize for a vaginal birth. That fear is playing a huge role in the number of c-sections performed annually.

RupertPenny · May 2012

I have heard that some people think doctors want to do more c-sections because they can bill the insurance for more money than a normal vaginal birth, but I think (hope) that is serious tin foil hat territory.

chelseamb11 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:da371c83-f60d-49b6-adf6-11b1084f5b6b">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]I kind of think giving birth requires you to give general consent to having things put into your vagina. It would be nice for the doctor to warn you, but I don't think it equates with sexual assault.
Posted by RupertPenny[/QUOTE]

This. I can't imagine all the things doctors have to do to you during labor/birth/post birth. Probably too much to run past you for each individual thing. When I'm in labor, I am not going to want a detailed play by play of what's going on /> I'm going to want to know the things that are relevant to that point in time that I need to do. That's it.

MoonlightSilver · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_birth-rape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:75fcb7e0-2606-47c8-8ecc-bf1c4bdcd169Post:c3600d9e-4132-4210-8879-94baaa850b4e">Re: Birth rape?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Birth rape? : So, in 'birth rape' what is the alternative? Leaving the woman and child to die? I'm genuinely curious what your alternative is, if a doctor putting his hand in a vagina isn't an option during birth when something goes wrong.
Posted by ErinG93[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>The particular situation I am talking about wasn't a necessary procedure. Sometimes, when a lazy doctor (not all doctors are lazy, but for those that are) wants to speed mom along, they will artifically rupture mom's membranes (break her water) to get the contractions going. </div><div>
</div><div>In this situation, the doctor did this, without asking the woman if it was okay to do so or to even touch her, and continued the procedure as she screamed for him to stop and tried to crawl away from him. </div><div>
</div><div>Other doctors may do something similar to check dialation- just walk in a shove a hand up the woman's vagina. This is inconsiderate at the least; dangerous at the most because it increases risk of infection once the woman's water is broken.</div><div>
</div><div>ETA: I'm perfectly okay and accepting of doctors touching or doing medical procedures in times of emergency without asking if it's okay first. But I see no reason for a doctor to walk into a room where there is no emergency happening and just start doing something without asking- and even if he does that, he should immediately stop when the woman starts screaming in pain. </div>

MattsPenguin · May 2012

Rupert - I hope that is not true. September - you are probably right about ensuring a less risky (although much harder recovery) birth. Now that I think about it, I'm thinking of my family members who have elected to be induced. I still think that is kind of strange.

Snippylynn · May 2012

If you don't want something stuck in your vag, you probably shouldn't get pregnant. If you are telling your doctor no, you don't want something, in the middle of an experience like giving birth, I can honestly belive them saying that you aren't in the right state of mind. Which I can believe. Of course you are going to be in pain, of course you aren't going to want stuff done to you-- that's par for the course in giving birth. But to say you were raped? No way.

That is not to say that there isn't stuff that goes bad, that doctors ignore patients, or any of that. But I also think there are too many pressures on doctors, nurses and expectant parents. Doctors have pressures of time and fears of lawsuits, nurses can also be sued or lose their jobs, they have too many patients to care for, and parents. Come on. Life altering experience right there. We, as a society do not see the value in having time. Giving doctors time to really visit with their patients, having time off to prepare before the birth, having time after the birth to decompress. So instead, we're rushing here, rushing there and too busy pushing for more and better that we don't do a thorough job.

I think it's an impossible and intolerable situation for doctors. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. What PP said about US death rates and birth is true. We are stupidly high. There's certainly too much stuff being done to mothers and baby. With that being said, a friend and coworker of mine had a baby about a year ago. Very high risk-- she's over 45, during her first pregancy, 7 years before, she ended up having a 26 hour labor and has suffered permanent nerve damage. She tried every which way to have a C-section because she was scared of what would happen with her second baby. The Swedish doctors refused. There were problems during this birth as well, but she didn't suffer as bad as the first time. But to be refused requested care because they just don't want to do it is just as bad as forcing people into stuff.

Birth rape?

Re: Birth rape?

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