What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?
My son really wants to join the Boy Scouts, mostly because a couple of his friends belong and they do stuff that sounds cool. My ex and I have resisted this because we are atheists, are raising our children atheist, and the BSA is definitely a faith-based organization. Of equal importance to us, the BSA's stance on gay scouts and gay leaders is repulsive to us.
However, the BSA also does a lot of good things, is overall a good experience for boys, and would probably be a good & positive thing for our soon.
A dad whose son is in the organization says that the local charter basically ignores the national requirements on belief in a god and the ban on gays and the overall vibe of the local charters fit in with the overall liberal, crunchy-granola feel of the town where we live.
So . . . what do you think? Do the positives outweigh the negatives? Is our position that we will not support this organization for the reasons I mentioned too rigid? I know which way I'm leaning, but I wanted to hear other opinions, too. Thanks!
Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?
Also, I was in girl scouts, which is also faith based, I suppose, and REALLY didn't take away any god-type stuff from it.
I don't think it's that big of a deal, at least to try it out. If he comes home spouting off stuff you really disagree with, you can always pull him out.
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I'm conflicted as well, because I do not support organizations that discriminate against homosexuals. But on the other hand, both my father and my FI are technically Eagle scouts, so... I don't think it influenced their politics or moral beliefs in any way (they are political opposites) - it just solidified their love of the outdoors.
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Is it that you don't want your son to be influenced by them or you don't want to support them by giving them your money/time/effort or both?
If it's the first one, I wouldn't worry about it too much because it's only one small aspect of his life and like you said, he's mostly going to be paying attention to the "cool things" they get to do and spending time with his friends.
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Like TJ, it depends on how old your son is to me.
Maybe he's old enough to not care if it's a faith-based organization.
I think denying your children the pleasure of joining such clubs because of your religious beliefs are maybe a tad harsh.
I was raised catholic. At a young age I knew I didn't believe in religion at all, but my mom didn't hesitate putting us in non-religious programs, you KWIM?
Your son is going to develop feelings of his own regarding God, religion, etc.
I'm not sure I helped at all. I say if he wants to join, to let him join.
While the boy scouts may be a faith-based organization, at the end of the day, I think that it teaches good morals as well as an understanding of helping others.
My ex and I were going to let our son start BSA years ago, and the first meeting we went to they required documentation from the church and pastor we went to.
Well we are not church going people, and although I felt he could prosper from that experience we weren't going to start at a church just so he could go to boy scouts.
Whatever you hatters be hattin. -Tay Prince
The thing is, I don't think he'll be indoctrinated in any way. It's more that the policies of the organization are things with which we do not agree. It's an almost completely principle-based thing for us. I mentioned the faith-based stuff first, because I guess that at some point my son would be asked to profess his faith in a god, and that may be uncomfortable for him and could result in his getting kicked out. But even if that never happens, it's the gay-based stuff that really sticks in my craw. I have no problem with other people's faith, but I do have a problem with anti-gay discrimination.
So I suppose my question is - is it more important to stick to our guns and make our principles mean something by refusing to join an organization that goes against our principles, or is it okay to let it slide because of the good, positive things that the BSA does and the good it could do our son?
Edit: also, both my FI and father were raised Catholic, but my father sort of dropped out of the church around age 10 or so. I know he was never confirmed and his parents really didn't care. My grandmother, who was not religious but raised Catholic, did her duty, according to her Catholic guilt, of raising her children in her faith until they could make their own choices. I'm sure my father hasn't been to church in years and years. Nor did he raised my brother and I as Catholics. So while he LOVED Eagle Scouts, they didn't make him want to be any more religious.
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It's ok. I'm still not Baptist and I never have been. Nor am I United, which is what Mom kinda raised us to be and I also belonged to her church's youth group. The Baptist one was just more active.
"You can take your etiquette and shove it!" ~misscarolb
If you're uncomfortable with your son being exposed to those things, maybe you should sit down and talk to him about it. He's going to be exposed to all different kinds of people as he grows up no matter what, and helping him to understand other viewpoints as well as giving him the tools to make good decisions with will make sure that he ends up on the path he wants.
EDIT: So, to throw my two cents into your last question, I think that yes - it's worth exploring the Boy Scouts if it might make your son happy. At 10, he's at the point where he can start to make moral decisions for himself, and it would probably be good for him to challenge other perspectives and to be challenged himself. The whole Boy Scout thing is about learning to be independent, useful people, so I think he'd probably get more good out of it than bad. Plus, organizations like that never change unless the youth who are partaking in it do. If the kids understand about gay rights, that might be what the whole organization needs to get its ass in gear to change policies.
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[QUOTE]So I suppose my question is - is it more important to stick to our guns and make our principles mean something by refusing to join an organization that goes against our principles, or is it okay to let it slide because of the good, positive things that the BSA does and the good it could do our son?
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]
Have you discussed this with him? I would definitely explain your stance and then have him tell you whether or not he wants to do it. If he does still want to do it, tell him he needs to earn money around the house to pay his dues because you don't want to contribute your own money to the organization.
And really, I feel ya. I went off on the Salvation Army for similar reasons a while back and got reamed out for it. But hey, I still won't give them money or clothing.
Also, is there an alternative organization in your area, like Campfire Boys and Girls?
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[QUOTE]That's a good point, TJ. He's 10. The thing is, I don't think he'll be indoctrinated in any way. It's more that the policies of the organization are things with which we do not agree. It's an almost completely principle-based thing for us. I mentioned the faith-based stuff first, because I guess that at some point my son would be asked to profess his faith in a god, and that may be uncomfortable for him and could result in his getting kicked out. But even if that never happens, it's the gay-based stuff that really sticks in my craw. I have no problem with other people's faith, but I do have a problem with anti-gay discrimination. <strong>So I suppose my question is - is it more important to stick to our guns and make our principles mean something by refusing to join an organization that goes against our principles, or is it okay to let it slide because of the good, positive things that the BSA does and the good it could do our son? </strong>
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]
I get where you're coming from, I do. But I also wouldn't be one to deny my kid something that has lots of positives, that he REALLY wants to do based on principle. How would he react to your telling him no? Would you explain to him why you didn't want him to join?
Whatever you hatters be hattin. -Tay Prince
[QUOTE]I know all the boys that I hung out and were in it learned some really great things. This is PERSONAL experience, but I've yet to meet an Eagle Scout that wasn't a really amazing guy.
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]
EXACTLY! My friends who are Eagle Scouts are incredibly accomplished individuals.
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[QUOTE]And FWIW, my pro-choice mother sent me to a Catholic high school. I have never been pro-life despite 4 years of Catholic-based religion classes.
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
I think this is an excellent example of how people learn to make their own choices, despite what's they're exposed to.
I grew up in, and am still a member of a baptist church, but I don't agree with everything that the baptists believe in. Baptists are known for being against alcohol consumption...I drink. Baptists, as well as most Christian denominations are pro-life, and I always say that while I personally could never get an abortion, I am not going to make the decision for another woman.
These decisions, as well as others, are result of me thinking it out for myself, talking to other people and education myself on certain issues.
I have discussed this with him. I told him that his dad and I don't want to give $ to the BSA because they require scouts to profess a belief in god (at least at some point, probably not at the Webelo stage) and because they discriminate against gay people. Son says "I still want to race in a soap box derby."
This is a very hard part of parenting for me.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts? : EXACTLY! My friends who are Eagle Scouts are incredibly accomplished individuals.
Posted by MattsPenguin[/QUOTE]
Not saying that BSA isn't great, but I think the cause and effect here might be kind of fluid. Becoming an Eagle Scout is <em>not</em> easy and I think the guys who do stick with it and become Eagle Scouts would be accomplished in any aspect of their lives. It's their personality that drives them to become an Eagle Scout, not necessarily that being an Eagle Scout made them a great person, KWIM?
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Is it really worth it?
"You can take your etiquette and shove it!" ~misscarolb
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts? : Not saying that BSA isn't great, but I think the cause and effect here might be kind of fluid. Becoming an Eagle Scout is not easy and I think the guys who do stick with it and become Eagle Scouts would be accomplished in any aspect of their lives. It's their personality that drives them to become an Eagle Scout, not necessarily that being an Eagle Scout made them a great person, KWIM?
Posted by FutureMrsTR[/QUOTE]
That's true . . . just thinking of my guy friends and am amazed at what kind of individuals they are.
And is there anything else he can get involved in that doesnt have a check list of requiremnents?
If more parents and kids challenge their antiquated views, it might be what the BSA needs to change.
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[QUOTE]I think there's a point where you have to make a decision about your principles and the experiences your son wants growing up. Is it really worth it?
Posted by wadingmoose[/QUOTE]
This is exactly my dilemma. I don't know.
Imagine, if you (not you, Moose, necessarily - any you) are a religious person raising your child in your religious tradition, that the organization required scouts to denounce their faith and state that they did NOT believe in god. Would you find that offensive enough to not send your son to that organization?
ETA; Here's the Scout Oath the Scout Law, just fyi:
<p><strong>Scout Oath</strong>
On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.</p><p><strong>Scout Law</strong> </p><p><strong>A Scout is:</strong>
<strong>Trustworthy</strong> – A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.
<strong>Loyal</strong> – A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.
<strong>Helpful</strong> – A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.
<strong>Friendly</strong> – A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.
<strong>Courteous</strong> – A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.
<strong>Kind</strong> – A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated.
<strong>Obedient</strong> – A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.
<strong>Cheerful</strong> – A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
<strong>Thrifty</strong> – A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
<strong>Brave</strong> – A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.
<strong>Clean</strong> – A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.
<strong>Reverent</strong> – A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.</p>
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts? : This is exactly my dilemma. I don't know. Imagine, if you (not you, Moose, necessarily - any you) are a religious person raising your child in your religious tradition, that the organization required scouts to denounce their faith and state that they did NOT believe in god. Would you find that offensive enough to not send your son to that organization?
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]
I'll be honest, I don't think Mom was overly pleased that I was a member of the Baptist youth group. I really think she didn't like the trips we did to church weekends because that's not what she believed in.
I respect that she had the ability to stand back and let me make those decisions, her faith that I'd do what was right for me is impressive even though it may mean that I didn't follow in her religious footsteps. Is it the same as denouncing faith? In the end I have, but it isn't due to either of the youth groups I belonged to.
I don't think that declaring a faith to the boy scouts is selling his soul. He wants to race soapbox cars, not determine where he sits on god, the hereafter and gay marriage.
"You can take your etiquette and shove it!" ~misscarolb
On the other hand, I'd hate to see your son miss out on some great learning and fun experiences. Is there any other organization in your area that fulfills the same (or similar) needs?
FWIW, the GIrl Scouts are very different -- they've made a point of distancing themselves from the Boy Scouts on policies related to religion and homosexuality and I'd have no problem having a child of mine join the GS.
I'd be really torn on this, too. In the end, I'd probably let him join because he really wants to and it sounds like it would be a positive experience overall, but I'd definitely stay involved and talk to him about what he is learning.
I want to raise my future hypothetical kids as atheists, too, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to limit their exposure to other beliefs because I want them to grow into open-minded adults who are capable of coming to their own conclusions about morality, faith, etc.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts? : This is exactly my dilemma. I don't know. Imagine, if you (not you, Moose, necessarily - any you) are a religious person raising your child in your religious tradition, that the organization required scouts to denounce their faith and state that they did NOT believe in god. Would you find that offensive enough to not send your son to that organization?
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]
In a roundabout way, I could still do this. The way I see it, if I <em>reaaaaaally</em> wanted to be a part of something, I'd say what I needed to say to join and know in my heart that my beliefs and faith in God trump anything I might say to a person. So, if I know I believe in God, and this organization wants me to say that I believe in little green men, sure, I can say that and not be bothered because I know in my heart what I believe.
Maybe that makes me a crappy person, but I think that the good I could get out of an organization like that would outweigh the inconveniences of having to pretend I believe in something that I don't.
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