Need advice on Catholic ceremony

agapecarrie · May 2012

The economy of salvation...the "rules" we are given to follow, the sacraments, etc, are for our benefit, not God's. He doesn't need them, we do. They give grace. He is free to work outside the boundaries that He designed. He isn't "bound" by them.

THe most important thing here is "Grace". A mystery outside of our understanding, yet completely attainable for us ... something life giving and renewing, to have the comfort of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us...this is what its about.

You may have heard various scriptures and statements saying something like there is no salvation outside of Jesus. While this is true, it must be qualified: An atheist or non-Baptized person may be saved, go to heaven, but it will be through Jesus, even though they may not acknowledge or undertsand that He is the gateway for that salvation.

mjmchugh86 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:e7d2bd06-2ece-4ad6-b67b-6400adf456bd">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]Also - I just want you to know - I have been told completely false information from priests and other laypeople that have the repertoire/training that would lead you to believe they knew what they were talking about! Unfortunately, it is pretty common to be given inaccurate information. We see a lot of brides get misinformation all the time! I think that's why many of us are so eager to ensure that others at least have the correct info when they are makeing a determination of the Church and her doctrine.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

What - next you are going to be telling me women can be priests, church is pro - choice, birth control and gay marrage are ok, limiting family size is encourgaged and stem cell research is awesome! *jk*

Always willing to be educated, thanks for having patience with me.

Riss91 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:d9e8d308-0174-4d77-af01-b060e2e05ef3">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony : What - next you are going to be telling me women can be priests, church is pro - choice, birth control and gay marrage are ok, limiting family size is encourgaged and stem cell research is awesome! *jk* Always willing to be educated, thanks for having patience with me.
Posted by mjmchugh86[/QUOTE]

Ha...I wouldn't go THAT far <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />

But society/the media certainly frame the Church's arguments in a way that doesn't necessarily reflect the underlying message properly. They also make it seem like the Church is obsessed with these topics, when it isn't.

We're happy to help and appreciate your patience as well!

Calypso1977 · May 2012

mj, where is your reception? im in metro west, and can possibly give you some church suggestions in my area.

you shoudlnt have a problem getting married in a church other than your home parish. you may have to pay a bit extra, but it usually can be done.

mjmchugh86 · May 2012

My reception will be in Bedford, NH. I am probably looking for a church in Manchester, NH is you know of any.

Calypso1977 · May 2012

sorry, not familiar with the Manchester churches...

lmeade62 · May 2012

I seem to remember hearing from a number of different sources about - as others have mentioned - baptism by desire and baptism by blood - i.e., if you are not able to be baptized officially but have that desire, it is akin to being baptized. Also, isn't it true that if you die for the faith, even if you aren't baptized, that is "baptism" by blood? Our priest also told that in dire times, anyone could be baptize, as long as they did so in the name of the Trinity and used water.

However, I am far from the most knowledgable member of this board, so I could be completely wrong, LOL.

I too questioned many aspects of the Church when I first began RCIA (my husband was Catholic, I was not), because they were diametrically opposed to things I had clung to for most of my life. I saw, however, that I had bought into many "liberal" beliefs for a couple of reasons - peer pressure, to alleviate guilt for doing things I knew were wrong (such as having sex outside of marriage), and other reasons. For example, I had a cousin who died from a "back alley" abortion, so I was pro-choice for a long time. But now I am convinced that life begins at conception, so abortion is killing a baby.

I struggled with the patriarchal nature of the church as an Institution. However, I happened across the verse (I think it's Romans) that likens the Church to the body: all parts are different, and play a unique role, and all are critical in the functioning of the body as a whole. True, women cannot be priests, but seeing this as unfair presumes (in my opinion) that being a priest is the only important job in the Church. Women play so many critical roles in the Church, so as far as I'm concerned, they are seen as important. And let's face it - it's the only Church that has a woman in a position of such high esteem and reverence as our Blessed Mother.

The one I struggle with most right now has to do with gay "marriage." I know marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman because one of its central functions is to produce children. But that's tough for me because my husband and I -we've been married less than a year - are of an advanced age (he's 54, I just turned 50) and are unable to have children. Yet I believe with every fiber of my being that our marriage is sacred. Also, I have several homosexual friends who are in solid, long-term relationships. I adore them and think they are wonderful people, and it's very ego-dystonic for me to see them as sinning or abominations.

Nonetheless, I love the Church and its beauty and the core tenets of the Faith.

This is a good discussion...very thought-provoking.

Linda

agapecarrie · May 2012

I need to clarify...the church does NOT consider homosexuals "abominations"

lmeade62 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:b1386e38-1cc5-48b3-b35d-e99ef41690a4">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]I need to clarify...the church does NOT consider homosexuals "abominations"
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

<div>I'm sorry, you're right - it's the "gay marriage" part of it that the church sees as wrong, would that be correct?</div><div>
</div><div>I'm truly not trying to be argumentative, but to educate myself on this as it is the most troubling thing for me. Thank you for the clarification - </div><div>
</div><div>Linda</div>

agapecarrie · May 2012

The church believes that Marriage/sex/procreation are intricately related. Marriage is the primordial sacrament---which images the trinity (the love between 2 begets at 3rd) and resembles CHrist's love for the church. A giver and receiver. Marriage's purpose is for procreation. They MUST be able to become one flesh. This is inherent to the definition of marriage.

Anything that acts against this, or desecrates this understanding is not in line with the Christian life, so it causes spiritual, emotional, physical, and social harm.

Sex outside of marriage is not in line with this. Contraception is not in line. people of the same sex cannot consumate,. they cannot by definition, become one flesh. which is a synonym for marriage. This is what marriage means.

lmeade62 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:03c5576c-d339-47dc-9aa9-5db48f7fe017">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]The church believes that Marriage/sex/procreation are intricately related. Marriage is the primordial sacrament---which images the trinity (the love between 2 begets at 3rd) and resembles CHrist's love for the church. A giver and receiver. <strong>Marriage's purpose is for procreation. </strong>They MUST be able to become one flesh. This is inherent to the definition of marriage. Anything that acts against this, or desecrates this understanding is not in line with the Christian life, so it causes spiritual, emotional, physical, and social harm. Sex outside of marriage is not in line with this. Contraception is not in line. people of the same sex cannot consumate,. they cannot by definition, become one flesh. which is a synonym for marriage. This is what marriage means.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

<div>Okay...given this, then, what if a man and a woman are - as my husband and I are - unable to have children due to age?</div><div>
</div>

agapecarrie · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:99b4b5ed-4ea4-4fd5-a99e-c5b3a616fbff">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony : Okay...given this, then, what if a man and a woman are - as my husband and I are - unable to have children due to age?
Posted by lmeade62[/QUOTE]

This quesiton is reducing the concept to mere biology, which it isn't.

<div>Your physical union, if not purposely interrupted in any way, is still procreative. It is ordered toward procreation. The sexual embrace is efficacious of the grace of the sacrament. The physical part is modeling the spiritual gift and reception...the reciprocity. We are not souls trapped in a body...the body manifests the soul. It is not reduced to biology. There is a spiritual fruitfulness that can come about due to your faithfulness towards being "procreative". </div><div>
</div><div>I recommend reading the catechism on Marriage, as well as Theology of the Body for beginners. </div>

Riss91 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:99b4b5ed-4ea4-4fd5-a99e-c5b3a616fbff">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony : Okay...given this, then, what if a man and a woman are - as my husband and I are - unable to have children due to age?
Posted by lmeade62[/QUOTE]

A marriage in this case is completely valid, as it is natural for fertility to decrease with age.

Here's some Canon Law on the topic:

Here are the relevant canons from Canon Law:

Can. 1084 §1. Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have intercourse, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether absolute or relative, nullifies marriage by its very nature.

§2. If the impediment of impotence is doubtful, whether by a doubt about the law or a doubt about a fact, a marriage must not be impeded nor, while the doubt remains, declared null.

§3. Sterility neither prohibits nor nullifies marriage, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1098.

mjmchugh86 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:15830772-27f8-4559-9589-d11017a9ad6c">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony : This quesiton is reducing the concept to mere biology, which it isn't. Your physical union, if not purposely interrupted in any way, is still procreative. It is ordered toward procreation. The sexual embrace is efficacious of the grace of the sacrament. The physical part is modeling the spiritual gift and reception...the reciprocity. We are not souls trapped in a body...the body manifests the soul. It is not reduced to biology. There is a spiritual fruitfulness that can come about due to your faithfulness towards being "procreative". I recommend reading the catechism on Marriage, as well as Theology of the Body for beginners.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

How is this not circular reasoning when considering gay marriage?

lalaith50 · May 2012

[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony : How is this not circular reasoning when considering gay marriage?
Posted by mjmchugh86[/QUOTE]
I may be misunderstanding you, but... the difference seems obvious to me...<div>Penis + Penis does not/cannot/will-not-possibly ever = baby...</div>

agapecarrie · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:a75ea024-cb5e-4913-9a70-a35ac99b4065">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony : How is this not circular reasoning when considering gay marriage?
Posted by mjmchugh86[/QUOTE]

<div>There is no circular reasoning. As I said, the body manifests the soul. The body is not simply a shell. Therefore, what the body does matters. If the body were just a shell, and our souls were not a gender, then it wouldn't matter, but that's not true. People are male or female...through and through. There must be a giver and receiver, its stamped right in the body. THIS is what allows the efficacious grace of the marital embrace and spiritual fruitfulness, the capability of allowing physical fruitfulness. </div>

mjmchugh86 · May 2012

So basically, you can not be married unless you can put the "p" in the "v"?

(Don't mean to be crass, but that's the best way I can see to put it)

agapecarrie · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:f016d875-8ebf-4799-873b-a32a482ab1b5">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]So basically, you can not be married unless you can put the "p" in the "v"? (Don't mean to be crass, but that's the best way I can see to put it)
Posted by mjmchugh86[/QUOTE]

<div>Yes. someone who is permanently impotent cannot be married either. </div>

Eliz77 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:f016d875-8ebf-4799-873b-a32a482ab1b5">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]So basically, you can not be married unless you can put the "p" in the "v"? (Don't mean to be crass, but that's the best way I can see to put it)
Posted by mjmchugh86[/QUOTE]
This is one of some things I have a difficult time with/accepting of the Catholic Church. I am female, engaged to a male, don't use BC, won't have an abortion and intend to have children one day. So, technically I live by Catholic teachings.<div>
</div><div>However, I have friends who are gay. I have a a great friend who adopted his brother's children who were born to a drug addicted mother who would tell anyone who'd listen she couldn't use BC/have an abortion due to being Catholic, yet she could use drugs, have sex with random people, commit felonies so the kids were born addicts and in prison. However, my friend and his SO now have these two kids who are absolutely a adorable and thriving in school in spite of many challanges. The community they live in has embraced them, and they are very well-liked.</div><div>
</div><div>OK, so I get that penis + penis =/= baby, so the Church considers them invalid as a family, These kids are well adjusted, loved as any normal family should be. I KNOW their bio mom/dad would not have been suitable, yet this family works. I'm a believer that things happen for a reason, and IMO, this was meant to be. </div><div>
</div><div>Not arguing here, I understand why the Church is anti-gay marriages, just sharing my first-hand opinion on why I disagree with that stance. I think every child should have the best chance possible and I know had they been left with their bio parents, stuck in forter care, bounced around, well, that certainly would not have been their best chance. </div><div>
</div><div>P.S...our pre-cana couple was infertile (she was) and adopted a baby. So, the topic did come up that day (artificial methods vs adoption vs marriage being solely for procreation) and I could tell the couple kinda struggled with the discussion, but found it interesting nontheless. Nothing really was concluded, just popular opinion seemed to be most of us apparently struggle with this topic despite what the Church tells us.</div>

Riss91 · May 2012

The Church doesn't say homosexuals are bad people. The Church never states that a homosexual person is any lesser of a person than a heterosexual person. The Church never states that a heterosexual person is a better person than a homosexual person.

The Church considers homosexual ACTS to be sins. Just as the Church considers pre-marital sex between heterosexuals to be sins. Neither is a "better" or "worse" sin.

lmeade62 · May 2012

In Response to Re:Need advice on Catholic ceremony:[QUOTE]...The sexual embrace is efficacious of the grace of the sacrament. The physical part is modeling the spiritual gift and reception...the reciprocity. We are not souls trapped in a body...the body manifests the soul. It is not reduced to biology. There is a spiritual fruitfulness that can come about due to your faithfulness towards being "procreative".Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

That is very helpful; thank you.

lalaith50 · May 2012

ok...this thread is acting really goofy and I am never able to see who the "most recent" comment actually is! Anyone else having this problem? Right now it says Linda was the last one that commented, and earlier it says Eliz had commented, and I don't see either of those at all... all I see is Riss as the last.

Riss91 · May 2012

Yeah - Other boards are having IT issues as well.... I wonder if it has something to do with the recent Nest conversion/issues

terbear22 · May 2012

My fiance and I were both raised Catholic. I went through a long period of question as I was getting confirmed (in HS where I grew up). For a while I hated the Church. I think what kept me coming back through those times, were the traditions and the community. To me the Catholic faith is my culture. And even while I may not agree with every piece of doctrine, I do agree with the fundamental belief that we should love one another. As the years have gone by, I have truly chosen Catholicism as my religion and not just something from my family.

My fiance, on the other hand, is currently only Catholic because he's received the sacraments. He wants to raise his kids in the Churh, but really has no desire to go to mass on a regular basis.
(Just some background info on me).

The church I grew up in is across the country, and my fiance's old parish means nothing to him. I personally found it cold and bleh. I like to say we were "in the market" for a church that could marry us. I literally googled churches in the area and went to mass at a few. We ended up finding a church (turns out his mom grew up in the parish) that would marry us, no problem. AND better yet, we love it. I said "we" because even my fiance enjoys going to mass there. Sometimes the right community makes all the difference.

I wish you luck, and if a church gives you problems, try somewhere else. I'm convinced there is a church that will be right for you, and who knows maybe it could end up being more than just a place where you got married.

futuremrsbruno · May 2012

Is your FI affiliated with a church? Can you meet with the priest? When I got engaged, my FI was born and baptised Catholic, but had not finished the rest of his sacraments. I was not Catholic, but had been interested in the faith for years. We made the decision to enroll in the RCIA program so he could finish his sacraments and I could convert.

There are some issues that I don't necessarily fully agree with when it comes to the Catholic church. At one point during our RCIA program, as well as our marriage prep program, I was able to discuss the issues with our priest. He was more understanding than I would have thought, and as it turns out, I am able to keep my views on these issues without going against church teaching. My church is on the more liberal side of the Catholic spectrum, but I was still happy I didn't have to compromise my personal beliefs, or our wedding party. In fact, it was that issue alone that made me know I wanted to get married there! (3 of our groomsmen are gay, as long as they don't participate in communion, there are 0 problems with them being in the wedding, including our Best Man)

We did make the decision to NOT do the full Mass at our wedding. My family isn't Catholic with the excpetion of a few in-laws, so we felt it was unfair for them to have to partake in our beliefs. It also eliminated the problem of our groomsmen taking communion.

I would suggest the non-Mass ceremony. Your FI will still get the bigger parts of the Mass (basically everything minus the smaller prayers and communion) and you don't have to feel bad!

RunDog · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice-on-catholic-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e1e3f213-ad88-4f9d-891f-9816947eed23Post:b0e1832e-a4f5-4c25-986b-012c22b06066">Re: Need advice on Catholic ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]Thanks Riss and Professor! I certainly did not come here to argue Church teachings, and you have all been very helpful. In responce to my previous question, has anyone else had a ceremony outside of their own church? What was your experience with that? Also, If we do get married in a church far away, how would pre-cana work? Would we travel there, or would we be able to go to the church in the city we live in?
Posted by mjmchugh86[/QUOTE]

I'm getting married in my home town in the church I grew up in. I recently registered with a church in the city where I live, but I've always considered myself to be a member of the church in my hometown. I initially called the parish where I'm registered, but they made it incredibly difficult to figure out what I'm supposed to do. We're using an outside priest, and he said to not worry about it. The church in my hometown is also getting a new priest soon, so we don't really have anyone there to ask for permission.

We're doing our marriage preparation program with the outside priest that's marrying us, but we have to drive to my hometown to meet with him. We did have the choice of going through my parish where I live now. In fact, I think that's what is preferred, but I wanted to get to know the priest that's actually marrying us. It has made the whole process much more personal and meaningful.

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