In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:a99938db-2737-432d-a521-a8ef867d94ab">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : <strong>Why does the man have to be the spiritual leader?</strong>Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]
This is just an opinion, ok? I think that since God created man first, it is just the way he intended it to be. It's not about who is better or who is stronger, but it was just chosen. Why are women the ones who have the children? We don't know, but that's just what God wanted.
We're taught that the man should be the spiritual leader, but that doesn't mean that he's sentenced to eternal damnation if he fails; it just means that he should do his best to be a Godly man and be a good influence on his family.
But women have their duties too. In Proverbs 31:30 it says "Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised." By that, I think it means that we should be more than pretty and charming. We should be seeking God in everything that we do. Additionally, in Proverbs 27:14, it says, "As iron sharpens iron, man should sharpen the other." In this verse, the word "man" is used, but that is for everyone. A wife should keep her husband focused on the Lord, and he should do the same for her as well. There is equality there.
Now, obviously, if you don't believe in God, then this just seems like spiritual-craziness and it's not getting you any clarification. But I'm telling you what I believe to be true through my teachings and experiences.
I have a friend who's marriage was based on this, only her douchebag ex wasn't really holding up his end of the bargain. She did see him as the head of their household and she did submit to him in a number of ways. But, he used that to control her life - he told her when she could see friends and who she could see, she wasn't allowed to talk on the phone in the evenings because that was "family time," etc.
Of course, he also cheated on her repeatedly and got at least one other woman pregnant while they were still married. They are no longer married, thank goodness, but it took a lot for her to follow through and divorce him, even after everything, because she really did feel she was betraying God.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:a99938db-2737-432d-a521-a8ef867d94ab">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : Why does the man have to be the spiritual leader? Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]
I would guess (I don't know this for a fact), but the man would be the spiritual leader, since he would have been the one educated. Women were not. From what I've seen of religion, good religious leaders don't just boss everybody around, but instead are more like teachers helping students to find answers for themselves. It's not that he is the leader as in the boss, but the leader as in, he has the education to teach his family, and it's his responsibility to do so.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:ac8024b8-0f6c-482e-8c12-9ec57344e0ab">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]I think we also have to remember that the Bible was not written by God but by humans who are flawed. I'm a faithful person and believe in God but I definitely don't believe that the Bible is everything that God wanted to tell us. Some of it may actually be written by corrupt people who wrote passages or compiled passages to suit their needs. I think Christianity is wonderful and like all other religions it is provides a guideline on how to live your life well and with meaning. I just don't think that the Bible is "God's word" because it was written by humans.I also believe there are parts of the Bible that are missing and who knows, maybe the parts written by women would have said the women is the spiritual leader and men should submit to them. Either way it was written by people, not God. So everyone needs to follow what they feel is right. Posted by pixiedust84[/QUOTE]
While I understand this theory and can relate to it, I believe that that God, the creator, would not let His word be misconstrued in any way. If He's powerful enough to create the world from dust (Genesis 2), then He's powerful enough to keep the right people writing the Bible.
FWIW, I'm not trying to be rude or anything. I went through a period of worrying about who was behind the translations and the original writings, and I've clearly gained a better personal understanding.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:a3416133-3b60-4285-80cf-0456e18cdfbf">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : While I understand this theory and can relate to it, I believe that that God, the creator, would not let His word be misconstrued in any way. If He's powerful enough to create the world from dust (Genesis 2), then He's powerful enough to keep the right people writing the Bible. FWIW, I'm not trying to be rude or anything. I went through a period of worrying about who was behind the translations and the original writings, and I've clearly gained a better personal understanding. Posted by JessAndTrav[/QUOTE]
I absolutely do not think you're being rude - and hope you don't think I am either! I like hearing what people believe and respect people's individual beliefs. I also like a good spiritual debate :-)
For me I believe in God and that He created this world (I also believe in evolution - God set it in motion) I also believe very fully that He gave us free will. This is so evident to me in the fact that our world is in the situation that he's in. I don't think that God is happy about things that are happening but I believe that He loved us enough to give us free will and with that gave us the ability to mess things up. I think it is this belief that makes me think the Bible is not necessarily a reflection on God's word but it is written by humans who may or may not have had good intentions. The thought that God could control what goes into the Bible but can't stop things like war and cancer from happening is a thought that I can't wrap my head around.
I think that we are all supposed to go on our own spiritual journey through life and find God in our own way. For some it's through the Bible, for some it's through feelings, for others they find him under a different religion and a different name. This is the beauty of free will.
It's like asking husbands, "Do you plan on loving your wife?" Obviously the answer is yes. Submit is a term that many, many people think of as a bad thing. It's more of an action of respect. You wouldn't do something that would affect the marriage without the husband's consent. Just like husbands wouldn't do something that would affect the marriage without the wife's consent.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:31f46f9c-86e6-4ef8-8a65-0b147b188b66">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]I'm an atheist, as is fi. But if another couple finds their happiness in following the Bible, who am I to say they're wrong? Or vomit-inducing? I don't think it's cool to mock someone's religious beliefs (although I guess there are exceptions). Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]
So the church of the flying spagetti monster and scientology are still in open season? (no offence to the scientologists, I have issues with the whole sciencefiction writer starting a religion to prove he could thing)
I, personally, dislike the passage. The fact that it can create this much discussion should tell you that some number of guests at your wedding will be uncomfortable if you use it.
Regardless, it's really that people and doctrines really DO interpretet it in the "do whatever your husband says, whenever he says it" way. And that is truly, truly sad and frightening. For that reason alone I HATE this passage and seriously side eye brides and grooms who choose to use it as a part of their wedding. There are so many other ways to say the "good" version of it that are not controversial and don't trigger debate like this. Why have controversy as part of your wedding?
I am having a Catholic ceremony and there are so many readings that talk about "submitting to your husband" or the man is the head of the house and you must obey his orders. Not cool!
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:e2281c2e-a435-4018-ad9b-f2dcfbba43e7">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : LOL. English Lit was actually one of my majors. :) Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]
Then I have an analogy for you. <u>Uncle Tom's Cabin</u>. Looking at Stowe's writing from our perspective, you might say that she's a racist because of her descriptions of the slaves. Back in the 1800s, the book shook the country and increased anti-slavery sentiments. It's contextual.
I wouldn't use one or two sentences out of the Bible to discount the entire thing any more than I'd use one of Stowe's euphamisms to belie that she was avidly anti-slavery.
Of course. And he plans to love me as Christ loved the Church, laying down his life for her -- which is, actually, the harder of the two! There is no question of equality -- of course we're both equal! Scripture is quite clear on that point. Different roles doesn't mean a difference in equality. It's really not a difficult concept.
We're reading Ephesians 5 at our wedding (along with Genesis 2). We both think it's a beautiful passage (I love it so much -- just thinking about how seriously my FI takes the commands to husbands is a sweet thing to me). It's not controversial in our circles (good grief, we're having our wedding at a seminary that doesn't allow women into the M.Div. program since its purpose is to train pastors and there's not a woman there who disagrees), so that won't be an issue.
I have to agree with Squirrly on this one. I attended a Baptist wedding where this passage was used, and while I recognized it and also am familiar with the underlying message of equiality (I'm Catholic) many of my less aware companions at the wedding had never heard it before and completely missed the dual meaning.
When you hear a passage such as this in audible form, read by a nervous bridesmaid, there is little room to go back and re-evaluate the meaning and different terminology used. Guests pick up that women = submissive, and men = head of household.
Unfortunately, after the reading was completed, the minister went off on a 30 minute diatribe about how the family structure in the West was disintegrating and how important it was for the man of the house to speak with Jesus, decide what to do, and then for the wife to support him in his decision. So not entirely a message of equality in his point of view. It was interesting, and based on the reactions of my friends I wouldn't use this passage due to the likelihood of confusion.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:7fb8e7c2-1bd6-4484-8859-1adb3f74a486">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]Sure. I like a little S&M sometimes... :P <p>Posted by ricksang[/QUOTE]</p><p> </p><p>I was just about to comment with the same thing. I like to submit on occasion; It's actually pretty hot. </p>
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:ae09cfa2-3066-4736-a483-170268ec47df">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]I guess I short-circuited the entire inquiry by having a wife instead of a husband? Posted by 2dBride[/QUOTE]
I'm Catholic and my FI is Jewish. We are having an interfaith marriage and there will be no talk of obeying or asking the audience if anyone objects (which wasn't really part of this conversation, but I've got a potentially scary IL situation). It's going to be simple, forthright and how we feel. No one is submitting. We are on the same team.
Since the OP decided to use just part of my post, here is the enitre post, which includes an explanation of submission: {the OP in the original thread asked what it is to be a good Christian wife, so I responded with what I have been taught and believe}
The first quality is that you've accepted Christ as your savior and have surrendered your life to Him. It would be foolish for me to assume anything, as only God can know your heart. If you haven't taken this step, you can PM me if you wish, ask on here, or talk to your pastor. Another quality of a Christian wife is that she accepts her husband as the spiritual leader of the home. This can only be met if her husband has also accepted Christ as his savior and surrendered his life to Him. Accepting your husband as the spiritual leader brings submission with it. This is not meant to be a dictatorship.
Epehsians 5:22-30 (ESV): "22Wives, submit to your own husbands,as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, His body, and isHimself its Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. 25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word, 27so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30because we are members of His body."
We had a relationship seminar this past semester, and the speaker went through this passage. The girls thought it was going to be another talk about submission, but he took a different approach. He talked about verse 25, where it commands husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. He said that this means our husbands are called to protect us and love us, and must be willing to die for us. We're called to repsect his leadership under the authority of God. I don't know about you, but if he's willing to die for me, I can at least respect his leadership.
Being a homemaker, homeschooler, etc, doesn't make you a good Christian wife. These are decisions that families need to make for themselves. You're both sinners saved by Grace, and that should be the focus of your marriage. Don't focus on trying to be perfect. Maybe you could try spending time with wives in your church that you look up to. I know of a church here that has an "Apples of Gold" program where they match up engaged/newlywed women in the church with older married women and they do Bible Studies, cook together, and just hang out. I hope that helps. Sorry if it doesn't. ~Emily
I'm late to the party on this one, but I thought I'd throw this out there anyway.
I'm a Classics major, and my Ancient Greek class currently reading the New Testament. Since this passage is often controversial, we read it. The word translated as submit literally means "to be placed behind." The sense of the passage is that, in Christ, we place others before ourselves, i.e. the Golden Rule and selflessness. I think what Paul is saying here is that, in the same way Christians place themselves and their needs behind the needs of others and behind the worship of Christ, wives should place their husbands needs first in the marriage. The part about "Husbands, love your wives" suggests the exact same idea in a parallel syntax, albeit with different vocabulary. (In fact, in the Greek the man is given the stronger command than the woman.) If you read it this way, the meaning of the passage is totally different (or it is in my opinion.)
I also want to bring up the well-documented fact that translators tend to insert their own ideas into the original author's work when trying to provide a translation. It would thus make sense that the old misogynistic monks who made the first English translations would provide an interpretation of women needing to be passive and submissive to their husbands.
For the record, I am a Christian, but I do not attend a Christian university. Feel free to call me out on my biases; I know I have them! I did try to read this as impartially as possible though.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:f3b3170c-b30d-4295-824a-6aed6e01fc8b">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]I have a friend who's marriage was based on this, only her douchebag ex wasn't really holding up his end of the bargain. She did see him as the head of their household and she did submit to him in a number of ways. But, he used that to control her life - he told her when she could see friends and who she could see, she wasn't allowed to talk on the phone in the evenings because that was "family time," etc. Of course, he also cheated on her repeatedly and got at least one other woman pregnant while they were still married. They are no longer married, thank goodness, but it took a lot for her to follow through and divorce him, even after everything, because she really did feel she was betraying God. Posted by Sing2phins[/QUOTE]
How sad! I'm very glad she got out of the relationship!
In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?: I think that we are all supposed to go on our own spiritual journey through life and find God in our own way. For some it's through the Bible, for some it's through feelings, for others they find him under a different religion and a different name. This is the beauty of free will. Posted by pixiedust84[/QUOTE]
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:563ec806-ce86-4b9a-a131-3acb171cf825">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]It's like asking husbands, "Do you plan on loving your wife?" Obviously the answer is yes. Submit is a term that many, many people think of as a bad thing. It's more of an action of respect. You wouldn't do something that would affect the marriage without the husband's consent. Just like husbands wouldn't do something that would affect the marriage without the wife's consent. Posted by brittanywm[/QUOTE]
Of course we can assign whatever meaning we want to words and Bible verses, but the actual meaning of 'submit' is : <span><span style="background-color:transparent;cursor:default;">to</span> <span>give</span> <span style="background-color:transparent;cursor:default;">over</span> <span>or</span> <span>yield</span> <span>to</span> <span>the powe</span><span>r or</span> <span>authority</span> <span>of</span> <span>another</span> <span>(often</span> <span>used</span> <span style="background-color:transparent;cursor:default;">reflexively).</span> </span>
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:337a1606-1f4b-4b89-8a57-4b9c975902ae">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]I am having a Catholic ceremony and there are so many readings that talk about "submitting to your husband" or the man is the head of the house and you must obey his orders. Not cool! Posted by jemali_2003[/QUOTE]
Do you have to have those readings done for your ceremony or do they let you pick what you want??
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:39f94b96-b52c-45c6-945e-c0107a265987">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : Then I have an analogy for you. Uncle Tom's Cabin . Looking at Stowe's writing from our perspective, you might say that she's a racist because of her descriptions of the slaves. Back in the 1800s, the book shook the country and increased anti-slavery sentiments. It's contextual. I wouldn't use one or two sentences out of the Bible to discount the entire thing any more than I'd use one of Stowe's euphamisms to belie that she was avidly anti-slavery. Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]
Yes but God is outside of time right? He is all-powerful and all-knowing. And HIS WORD should stand for all time right? I do not believe that "God's word" should be influenced by historical context. If it is influenced, than it is not God's word and then how can we judge what God actualy intended to tel us and what was just part of historical context or human error? Do we just get to pick the passages that we agree with? perhaps God actually wanted to say, "Don't worry about me. Just be good people. Be nice to each other."
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:b23a029d-4d2b-4e93-846a-eb071a23e09a">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]Of course. And he plans to love me as Christ loved the Church, laying down his life for her -- which is, actually, the harder of the two! <strong>There is no question of equality -- of course we're both equal!</strong> Scripture is quite clear on that point. Different roles doesn't mean a difference in equality. It's really not a difficult concept. We're reading Ephesians 5 at our wedding (along with Genesis 2). We both think it's a beautiful passage (I love it so much -- just thinking about how seriously my FI takes the commands to husbands is a sweet thing to me). It's not controversial in our circles (good grief, <strong>we're having our wedding at a seminary that doesn't allow women into the M.Div. program since its purpose is to train pastors and there's not a woman there who disagrees</strong>), so that won't be an issue. Posted by jrpetrik[/QUOTE]
So you are equals... but you have to submit to him... and women are not allowed to be spriritual leaders in the church or in the home. yep. sounds like equality to me.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:ae09cfa2-3066-4736-a483-170268ec47df">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]I guess I short-circuited the entire inquiry by having a wife instead of a husband? Posted by 2dBride[/QUOTE]
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:e1794b86-cb87-4672-9d96-ee90a5bb8331">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : I was just about to comment with the same thing. I like to submit on occasion; It's actually pretty hot. Posted by thesuninherhead[/QUOTE]
LOL. I appreciate the humor being brought back in. And I have no issues with this type of submission. :)
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_plan-submit-husband?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:17043469-eda0-4344-913c-cd142c6656c6Post:c02e1c19-5360-49a0-a3c3-6c711ba24ac6">Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : Yes but God is outside of time right? He is all-powerful and all-knowing. And HIS WORD should stand for all time right? I do not believe that "God's word" should be influenced by historical context. If it is influenced, than it is not God's word and then how can we judge what God actualy intended to tel us and what was just part of historical context or human error? Do we just get to pick the passages that we agree with? perhaps God actually wanted to say, "Don't worry about me. Just be good people. Be nice to each other." Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]
If this is what you believe about God's Word (which is also what I and many Christians believe) why are you judging us for following the commands of our Creator?
Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband?
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : <strong>Why does the man have to be the spiritual leader?</strong>Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]
This is just an opinion, ok? I think that since God created man first, it is just the way he intended it to be. It's not about who is better or who is stronger, but it was just chosen. Why are women the ones who have the children? We don't know, but that's just what God wanted.
We're taught that the man should be the spiritual leader, but that doesn't mean that he's sentenced to eternal damnation if he fails; it just means that he should do his best to be a Godly man and be a good influence on his family.
But women have their duties too. In Proverbs 31:30 it says "Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised." By that, I think it means that we should be more than pretty and charming. We should be seeking God in everything that we do. Additionally, in Proverbs 27:14, it says, "As iron sharpens iron, man should sharpen the other." In this verse, the word "man" is used, but that is for everyone. A wife should keep her husband focused on the Lord, and he should do the same for her as well. There is equality there.
Now, obviously, if you don't believe in God, then this just seems like spiritual-craziness and it's not getting you any clarification. But I'm telling you what I believe to be true through my teachings and experiences.
Of course, he also cheated on her repeatedly and got at least one other woman pregnant while they were still married. They are no longer married, thank goodness, but it took a lot for her to follow through and divorce him, even after everything, because she really did feel she was betraying God.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : Why does the man have to be the spiritual leader?
Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]
I would guess (I don't know this for a fact), but the man would be the spiritual leader, since he would have been the one educated. Women were not. From what I've seen of religion, good religious leaders don't just boss everybody around, but instead are more like teachers helping students to find answers for themselves. It's not that he is the leader as in the boss, but the leader as in, he has the education to teach his family, and it's his responsibility to do so.
[QUOTE]I think we also have to remember that the Bible was not written by God but by humans who are flawed. I'm a faithful person and believe in God but I definitely don't believe that the Bible is everything that God wanted to tell us. Some of it may actually be written by corrupt people who wrote passages or compiled passages to suit their needs. I think Christianity is wonderful and like all other religions it is provides a guideline on how to live your life well and with meaning. I just don't think that the Bible is "God's word" because it was written by humans.I also believe there are parts of the Bible that are missing and who knows, maybe the parts written by women would have said the women is the spiritual leader and men should submit to them. Either way it was written by people, not God. So everyone needs to follow what they feel is right.
Posted by pixiedust84[/QUOTE]
While I understand this theory and can relate to it, I believe that that God, the creator, would not let His word be misconstrued in any way. If He's powerful enough to create the world from dust (Genesis 2), then He's powerful enough to keep the right people writing the Bible.
FWIW, I'm not trying to be rude or anything. I went through a period of worrying about who was behind the translations and the original writings, and I've clearly gained a better personal understanding.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : While I understand this theory and can relate to it, I believe that that God, the creator, would not let His word be misconstrued in any way. If He's powerful enough to create the world from dust (Genesis 2), then He's powerful enough to keep the right people writing the Bible. FWIW, I'm not trying to be rude or anything. I went through a period of worrying about who was behind the translations and the original writings, and I've clearly gained a better personal understanding.
Posted by JessAndTrav[/QUOTE]
I absolutely do not think you're being rude - and hope you don't think I am either! I like hearing what people believe and respect people's individual beliefs. I also like a good spiritual debate :-)
For me I believe in God and that He created this world (I also believe in evolution - God set it in motion) I also believe very fully that He gave us free will. This is so evident to me in the fact that our world is in the situation that he's in. I don't think that God is happy about things that are happening but I believe that He loved us enough to give us free will and with that gave us the ability to mess things up. I think it is this belief that makes me think the Bible is not necessarily a reflection on God's word but it is written by humans who may or may not have had good intentions. The thought that God could control what goes into the Bible but can't stop things like war and cancer from happening is a thought that I can't wrap my head around.
I think that we are all supposed to go on our own spiritual journey through life and find God in our own way. For some it's through the Bible, for some it's through feelings, for others they find him under a different religion and a different name. This is the beauty of free will.
[QUOTE]I'm an atheist, as is fi. But if another couple finds their happiness in following the Bible, who am I to say they're wrong? Or vomit-inducing? I don't think it's cool to mock someone's religious beliefs (although I guess there are exceptions).
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]
So the church of the flying spagetti monster and scientology are still in open season? (no offence to the scientologists, I have issues with the whole sciencefiction writer starting a religion to prove he could thing)
Regardless, it's really that people and doctrines really DO interpretet it in the "do whatever your husband says, whenever he says it" way. And that is truly, truly sad and frightening. For that reason alone I HATE this passage and seriously side eye brides and grooms who choose to use it as a part of their wedding. There are so many other ways to say the "good" version of it that are not controversial and don't trigger debate like this. Why have controversy as part of your wedding?
Dresses may be easier to take in than let out, but guest lists are not. -- kate51485
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : LOL. English Lit was actually one of my majors. :)
Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]
Then I have an analogy for you. <u>Uncle Tom's Cabin</u>. Looking at Stowe's writing from our perspective, you might say that she's a racist because of her descriptions of the slaves. Back in the 1800s, the book shook the country and increased anti-slavery sentiments. It's contextual.
I wouldn't use one or two sentences out of the Bible to discount the entire thing any more than I'd use one of Stowe's euphamisms to belie that she was avidly anti-slavery.
When you hear a passage such as this in audible form, read by a nervous bridesmaid, there is little room to go back and re-evaluate the meaning and different terminology used. Guests pick up that women = submissive, and men = head of household.
Unfortunately, after the reading was completed, the minister went off on a 30 minute diatribe about how the family structure in the West was disintegrating and how important it was for the man of the house to speak with Jesus, decide what to do, and then for the wife to support him in his decision. So not entirely a message of equality in his point of view. It was interesting, and based on the reactions of my friends I wouldn't use this passage due to the likelihood of confusion.
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[QUOTE]Sure. I like a little S&M sometimes... :P
<p>Posted by ricksang[/QUOTE]</p><p> </p><p>I was just about to comment with the same thing. I like to submit on occasion; It's actually pretty hot. </p>
[QUOTE]I guess I short-circuited the entire inquiry by having a wife instead of a husband?
Posted by 2dBride[/QUOTE]
<div>WIN.</div>
The first quality is that you've accepted Christ as your savior and have surrendered your life to Him. It would be foolish for me to assume anything, as only God can know your heart. If you haven't taken this step, you can PM me if you wish, ask on here, or talk to your pastor. Another quality of a Christian wife is that she accepts her husband as the spiritual leader of the home. This can only be met if her husband has also accepted Christ as his savior and surrendered his life to Him. Accepting your husband as the spiritual leader brings submission with it. This is not meant to be a dictatorship.
Epehsians 5:22-30 (ESV): "22Wives, submit to your own husbands,as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, His body, and isHimself its Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. 25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word, 27so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30because we are members of His body."
We had a relationship seminar this past semester, and the speaker went through this passage. The girls thought it was going to be another talk about submission, but he took a different approach. He talked about verse 25, where it commands husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. He said that this means our husbands are called to protect us and love us, and must be willing to die for us. We're called to repsect his leadership under the authority of God. I don't know about you, but if he's willing to die for me, I can at least respect his leadership.
Being a homemaker, homeschooler, etc, doesn't make you a good Christian wife. These are decisions that families need to make for themselves. You're both sinners saved by Grace, and that should be the focus of your marriage. Don't focus on trying to be perfect. Maybe you could try spending time with wives in your church that you look up to. I know of a church here that has an "Apples of Gold" program where they match up engaged/newlywed women in the church with older married women and they do Bible Studies, cook together, and just hang out. I hope that helps. Sorry if it doesn't.
~Emily
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I'm a Classics major, and my Ancient Greek class currently reading the New Testament. Since this passage is often controversial, we read it. The word translated as submit literally means "to be placed behind." The sense of the passage is that, in Christ, we place others before ourselves, i.e. the Golden Rule and selflessness. I think what Paul is saying here is that, in the same way Christians place themselves and their needs behind the needs of others and behind the worship of Christ, wives should place their husbands needs first in the marriage. The part about "Husbands, love your wives" suggests the exact same idea in a parallel syntax, albeit with different vocabulary. (In fact, in the Greek the man is given the stronger command than the woman.) If you read it this way, the meaning of the passage is totally different (or it is in my opinion.)
I also want to bring up the well-documented fact that translators tend to insert their own ideas into the original author's work when trying to provide a translation. It would thus make sense that the old misogynistic monks who made the first English translations would provide an interpretation of women needing to be passive and submissive to their husbands.
For the record, I am a Christian, but I do not attend a Christian university. Feel free to call me out on my biases; I know I have them! I did try to read this as impartially as possible though.
[QUOTE]I have a friend who's marriage was based on this, only her douchebag ex wasn't really holding up his end of the bargain. She did see him as the head of their household and she did submit to him in a number of ways. But, he used that to control her life - he told her when she could see friends and who she could see, she wasn't allowed to talk on the phone in the evenings because that was "family time," etc. Of course, he also cheated on her repeatedly and got at least one other woman pregnant while they were still married. They are no longer married, thank goodness, but it took a lot for her to follow through and divorce him, even after everything, because she really did feel she was betraying God.
Posted by Sing2phins[/QUOTE]
How sad! I'm very glad she got out of the relationship!
I think that we are all supposed to go on our own spiritual journey through life and find God in our own way. For some it's through the Bible, for some it's through feelings, for others they find him under a different religion and a different name. This is the beauty of free will.
Posted by pixiedust84[/QUOTE]
I like this sentiment.
[QUOTE]It's like asking husbands, "Do you plan on loving your wife?" Obviously the answer is yes. Submit is a term that many, many people think of as a bad thing. It's more of an action of respect. You wouldn't do something that would affect the marriage without the husband's consent. Just like husbands wouldn't do something that would affect the marriage without the wife's consent.
Posted by brittanywm[/QUOTE]
Of course we can assign whatever meaning we want to words and Bible verses, but the actual meaning of 'submit' is : <span><span style="background-color:transparent;cursor:default;">to</span> <span>give</span> <span style="background-color:transparent;cursor:default;">over</span> <span>or</span> <span>yield</span> <span>to</span> <span>the powe</span><span>r or</span> <span>authority</span> <span>of</span> <span>another</span> <span>(often</span> <span>used</span> <span style="background-color:transparent;cursor:default;">reflexively).</span> </span>
[QUOTE]I am having a Catholic ceremony and there are so many readings that talk about "submitting to your husband" or the man is the head of the house and you must obey his orders. Not cool!
Posted by jemali_2003[/QUOTE]
Do you have to have those readings done for your ceremony or do they let you pick what you want??
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : Then I have an analogy for you. Uncle Tom's Cabin . Looking at Stowe's writing from our perspective, you might say that she's a racist because of her descriptions of the slaves. Back in the 1800s, the book shook the country and increased anti-slavery sentiments. It's contextual. I wouldn't use one or two sentences out of the Bible to discount the entire thing any more than I'd use one of Stowe's euphamisms to belie that she was avidly anti-slavery.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]
Yes but God is outside of time right? He is all-powerful and all-knowing. And HIS WORD should stand for all time right? I do not believe that "God's word" should be influenced by historical context. If it is influenced, than it is not God's word and then how can we judge what God actualy intended to tel us and what was just part of historical context or human error? Do we just get to pick the passages that we agree with? perhaps God actually wanted to say, "Don't worry about me. Just be good people. Be nice to each other."
[QUOTE]Of course. And he plans to love me as Christ loved the Church, laying down his life for her -- which is, actually, the harder of the two! <strong>There is no question of equality -- of course we're both equal!</strong> Scripture is quite clear on that point. Different roles doesn't mean a difference in equality. It's really not a difficult concept. We're reading Ephesians 5 at our wedding (along with Genesis 2). We both think it's a beautiful passage (I love it so much -- just thinking about how seriously my FI takes the commands to husbands is a sweet thing to me). It's not controversial in our circles (good grief, <strong>we're having our wedding at a seminary that doesn't allow women into the M.Div. program since its purpose is to train pastors and there's not a woman there who disagrees</strong>), so that won't be an issue.
Posted by jrpetrik[/QUOTE]
So you are equals... but you have to submit to him... and women are not allowed to be spriritual leaders in the church or in the home. yep. sounds like equality to me.
[QUOTE]I guess I short-circuited the entire inquiry by having a wife instead of a husband?
Posted by 2dBride[/QUOTE]
LOL.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : I was just about to comment with the same thing. I like to submit on occasion; It's actually pretty hot.
Posted by thesuninherhead[/QUOTE]
LOL. I appreciate the humor being brought back in. And I have no issues with this type of submission. :)
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : Yes but God is outside of time right? He is all-powerful and all-knowing. And HIS WORD should stand for all time right? I do not believe that "God's word" should be influenced by historical context. If it is influenced, than it is not God's word and then how can we judge what God actualy intended to tel us and what was just part of historical context or human error? Do we just get to pick the passages that we agree with? perhaps God actually wanted to say, "Don't worry about me. Just be good people. Be nice to each other."
Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]
If this is what you believe about God's Word (which is also what I and many Christians believe) why are you judging us for following the commands of our Creator?
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