This whole story is sad

laurenclaire1386 · March 2010

http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2010/03/29/was-irish-teen-driven-to-suicide-by-unchecked-bullying-in-her-new-american-school/

I'm trying and failing to find an actual newslink to this story, rather than link a blog, which is what I've done. But the CN are that this girl was bullied harshly and repeatedly for a long time, and then she hung herself. It happened in Massachussetts and the DA for the county they're in is charging the people who bullied her with stalking and criminal harrassment. Do you agree with sticking these kids with criminal charges for her suicide?

laurenclaire1386 · March 2010

And here's another link without blog commentary.

http://www.clareherald.com/local-news/abroad/670-nine-charged-in-phoebe-prince-investigation.html

danieliza1127 · March 2010

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/29/massachusetts.bullying.suicide/index.html?hpt=T2

crfische · March 2010

Are the charging the adults that witnessed it too and did nothing until after she died?

andyandhillary · March 2010

That's awful. I don't think people take bullying very seriously. A lot of people just write it off as "kids will be kids". Yes, and some kids are downright jerkwads. I think we're in an age in our society where there is definitely less parental involvement. The parents are obviously not stopping their children from being jerks or are going to adequately punish them, so how else will we send the message that this behavior is not to be tolerated? I think criminal charges are definitely in order. Malicious behavior should never be tolerated.

laurenclaire1386 · March 2010

Fishy, from what I've read, only the kids who did the bullying have been charged. I wondered that too though. I think the responsibility lies mostly with the faculty, who according to all the news I've read and seen, knew about the bullying and did nothing. I realize teachers can't control kids' actions, but I can't believe the administration of this school let it get to this point.

crfische · March 2010

What pisses me off about stuff like this is that they have to wait until a child commits suicide to deem how horrific these kids were being toward her?

Like it wasn't horrible before? Prevention and not reaction, people.

The message sent to me, is that if you are being bullied and no one is doing jack schit about it, kill yourself and then you'll get some justice for living in hell for over 6 months.

I am perhaps being a bit over top, but it just irks me that adults and administration KNEW about this, and nothing, but she kills herself, and THEN it was a big deal.

NO. It was a big deal BEFORE.

FutureMrsTR · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:0728d87d-6f2d-4652-898b-968505c8c253">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]Are the charging the adults that witnessed it too and did nothing until after she died?
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

Ditto this. Childrens' brains aren't developed enough to consider the long term consequences of their actions. I'm not saying the children aren't to blame at all, but really, adults need to be intervening when things are obviously getting out of control.

crfische · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:c8c732d3-4678-4757-8813-d89124e91d09">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE] I realize teachers can't control kids' actions[/QUOTE]

Bullshit, they can't. Teachers control kids actions every day. That's why there are rules, detentions, calls home, letters home, homework deadlilnes.

Yeah, I'd say teachers control kids actions.

danieliza1127 · March 2010

That is all so sad. Fische, I agree with you 100% on everything you said.

jonchrissy · March 2010

I usually lurk..but I grew up in that area, and it's been on the news a TON here. I believe the DA is looking at bringing charges to the teachers/admin. I've heard on the news that one teacher was in a room when Pheobe was getting harassed by the other students. I think they're looking specifically at bringing charges to that teacher.

laurenclaire1386 · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:6deb2ce5-3517-452d-8dd2-8c2cdf396014">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : Bullshit, they can't. Teachers control kids actions every day. That's why there are rules, detentions, calls home, letters home, homework deadlilnes. Yeah, I'd say teachers control kids actions.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

You're right. They can to an extent. But if you're mean enough to bully someone to the point of that person committing suicide, are you really the type of person who responds to detention? I'm just saying that perhaps these kids were going to do it one way or the other, regardless of punishment. But we'll never know, because they weren't reprimanded to begin with, which is a major problem.

crfische · March 2010

But did they try? If they wouldn't listen to their teachers, would they listen to their parents? did they make any calls home to the parents? Did they tell them how severe their actions were? Did they let them know that what they were doing AT THE TIME could result in legal charges?

I'm guessing no. But they sure could have.

shellydiane820 · March 2010

I'm curious.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here, but did she have a previous history of depression or mental illness? Do they know it was a result of the bullying or were there underlying issues as well.

I do think the faculty and kids should be punished. Bullying is out of hand, and someone needs to set an example. Kids need to know that bullying won't get you anywhere, and its 100% unacceptable.

andyandhillary · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:42c6a136-f469-45c0-b016-1b4bd49ff4ba">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : Ditto this. Childrens' brains aren't developed enough to consider the long term consequences of their actions. I'm not saying the children aren't to blame at all, but really, adults need to be intervening when things are obviously getting out of control.
Posted by FutureMrsTR[/QUOTE]

These individuals were not children by any means. You know exactly what you're doing at that age. Even small children know how to be mean or nice. Think of it this way, if these people are old enough to drive and understand the consequences of not following the rules of the road and drinking and driving they are old enough to understand that hurt and suffering they cause through bullying.

ac_in_dc · March 2010

I think it's totally appropriate to press charges against the kids. There are clearly laws on the books than they may have violated. As for the adults, I guess they can't press charges unless they violated any laws. Maybe they'll be reprimanded for violating school policy?

I was never a regular target of bullying, but I definitely got my share of teasing in elementary and middle school. One time when I was 10 I was getting teased to the point where I very nearly started crying in the middle of class. The teacher called me out of the room and as soon as I got outside I totally started bawling. She was really sweet, and sent me to the bathroom to wash up. And then (so I heard later) she went in to the classroom and tore those kids a new asshole. I still remember and appreciate the fact that she did this.

laurenclaire1386 · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:913d6cf1-4307-4e87-9915-53ed184de719">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]I think it's totally appropriate to press charges against the kids. There are clearly laws on the books than they may have violated. As for the adults, I guess they can't press charges unless they violated any laws. Maybe they'll be reprimanded for violating school policy? I was never a regular target of bullying, but I definitely got my share of teasing in elementary and middle school. One time when I was 10 I was getting teased to the point where I very nearly started crying in the middle of class. The teacher called me out of the room and as soon as I got outside I totally started bawling. She was really sweet, and sent me to the bathroom to wash up. And then (so I heard later) she went in to the classroom and tore those kids a new asshole. I still remember and appreciate the fact that she did this.
Posted by ac_in_dc[/QUOTE]

I had a teacher who did something similar with me. 6th grade was a rough year. I still appreciate it to this day. It also helps that all the kids who teased me in the sixth grade are still in their podunk little town living in trailers in their parents' yards.

crfische · March 2010

They really aren't though, Andy. Kids brains aren't fully developed until they are 25.

There are plenty of things I did in high school that I thought were perfectly acceptable at the time, but HOLY CRAP they weren't. A lot of kids have NO CONCEPT as to how their behavior is effecting other people, especially when they are trying hard to fit in.

I'm not excusing their behavior. Not in the least bit. But there should have been some adult intervention going on here.

And Shelly, she may have. I thought aobut that, too. But it seems like EVERYONE was aware of the bullying, so it was obviously pretty blantent. Did someone offer for her to talk to a counselor or therapist? Did someone ask HER what SHE needed or wanted?

Those are the kinds of interventions that should have been offered. And did her parents know what was going on?

kd.joseph · March 2010

I just listened to this on the Today show this morning. They are looking at bringing charges against the adults, and I hope they do. This isn't the only case that has been in the news, and it's sick.

I take a personal offense to this because I was bullied a lot in Jr. High school. Sometimes ganged up on by more then one girl. How do you defend yourself against that? And yes teachers turned a blind eye. As long as it wasnt on school property, so then they just follow you home.

FutureMrsTR · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:1a73ef00-4a3c-425c-b5f2-c3f8c77cf292">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : These individuals were not children by any means. You know exactly what you're doing at that age. Even small children know how to be mean or nice. Think of it this way, if these people are old enough to drive and understand the consequences of not following the rules of the road and drinking and driving they are old enough to understand that hurt and suffering they cause through bullying.
Posted by andyandhillary[/QUOTE]

Yes, they knew that what they were doing was wrong, but at that age even though they look more like adults, teenagers are still not fully capable of understanding these severe consequences. That's why they text while they drive and many of them DO drink and drive.

Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't be charged or punished for their actions, but they shouldn't be the only ones held responsible. An adult should have reported their actions before it got to this point.

shellydiane820 · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:7811806e-0037-43b0-b8a0-d186e247441c">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]They really aren't though, Andy. Kids brains aren't fully developed until they are 25. There are plenty of things I did in high school that I thought were perfectly acceptable at the time, but HOLY CRAP they weren't. A lot of kids have NO CONCEPT as to how their behavior is effecting other people, especially when they are trying hard to fit in. I'm not excusing their behavior. Not in the least bit. But there should have been some adult intervention going on here. <strong>And Shelly, she may have. I thought aobut that, too. But it seems like EVERYONE was aware of the bullying, so it was obviously pretty blantent. Did someone offer for her to talk to a counselor or therapist? Did someone ask HER what SHE needed or wanted? Those are the kinds of interventions that should have been offered. And did her parents know what was going on?</strong>
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

And I agree 100%. I was just curious.

I moved in jr. high and it was extremely difficult. I can imagine how she felt. When you're in school you feel like "well, this is it. this is how its going to be." And that's a harsh reality to a 12 year old. You don't think about 10 years down the road when you realize it will be okay.

goheels05 · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:02398ac4-73d4-451a-a750-3162d09a0650">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]What pisses me off about stuff like this is that they have to wait until a child commits suicide to deem how horrific these kids were being toward her? Like it wasn't horrible before? Prevention and not reaction, people. The message sent to me, is that if you are being bullied and no one is doing jack schit about it, kill yourself and then you'll get some justice for living in hell for over 6 months. I am perhaps being a bit over top, but it just irks me that adults and administration KNEW about this, and nothing, but she kills herself, and THEN it was a big deal. NO. It was a big deal BEFORE.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

I agree completely. This story is heartbreaking. I thought we as a society were going to start taking this stuff seriously after the MySpace suicide debacle.

I am not surprised that teachers stood by and let this kind of thing happen. I grew up in a small town where everyone knew everyone and an elite group of kids in high school could get away with anything. Teachers and administration would just turn a blind eye to bullying, cheating, and favoritism because the they went to church with the parents or were members of the same country club or were old high school pals. I'd like to think it's the exception rather than the rule (I know we have regs who are teachers and obviously you all are better than that), but I'm not at all surprised that it happened.

andyandhillary · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:7811806e-0037-43b0-b8a0-d186e247441c">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]They really aren't though, Andy. Kids brains aren't fully developed until they are 25. There are plenty of things I did in high school that I thought were perfectly acceptable at the time, but HOLY CRAP they weren't. A lot of kids have NO CONCEPT as to how their behavior is effecting other people, especially when they are trying hard to fit in. I'm not excusing their behavior. Not in the least bit. But there should have been some adult intervention going on here. And Shelly, she may have. I thought aobut that, too. But it seems like EVERYONE was aware of the bullying, so it was obviously pretty blantent. Did someone offer for her to talk to a counselor or therapist? Did someone ask HER what SHE needed or wanted? Those are the kinds of interventions that should have been offered. And did her parents know what was going on?
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

I get that we aren't fully developed until 25 but I think if we give young people under 25 various responsibilites and priveleges then we have to hold them accountable for a lot of other decision making too.

I completely agree about the adult intervention. From what I've heard from some teachers/ school administrators is that they fear law suits from parents if they come down on a student's behavior. I'm not an educator so I'm not sure how accurate this is but I think perhaps it's one of those things you have to accept with the job. In addition to actually teaching, you are a disciplinarian too (when necessary). That's always a scary/weird line though.

allisong23 · March 2010

She was also raped by at least one of the kids. They have been brought up on statutory rape charges. It is such an awful, awful story.

sweetpea0911 · March 2010

Not going to hide it - I had the SHIIT bullied out of me in high school, and it is a large contributor to my resulting mental health issues. We can pinpoint exactly when it went from typical teenage moodswings/angst to full on bipolar/clinical depression, and it was during that time. Not one teacher stepped in, not one administrator took action until I was hospitalized for a suicide attempt.

I was not the only one in my high school who went through this, and am, in fact, one of few who made attempts to escape and survived. This story is horrible and the fact that it's only one of so many that is finally being publicized is even more horrible.

It's real and it's scary and I hope they bring charges against everyone involved. Throw the book at them, so to speak - make the biggest example out them that you can. It's something that can be controlled, can be stopped, and you WILL be saving someone's life.

britne28 · March 2010

While yes brains don't fully develope until 25 you can't convince me that they didn't know what they were doing. It is common knowledge now that bullying has harsh negative effects on a person. And when I was their age, I knew that harassment, physical abuse, etc were illegal and wrong. Absolutely they need to be charged and so do the teachers that turned a blind eye. This goes way beyond "stupid" behavior of teenagers. It wasn't like they were driving too fast or doing some crazy stunt on a skateboard.

shellydiane820 · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:c8cd58f6-b263-4d5d-bb51-70a566f4ae00">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]While yes brains don't fully develope until 25 you can't convince me that they didn't know what they were doing. It is common knowledge now that bullying has harsh negative effects on a person. And when I was their age, I knew that harassment, physical abuse, etc were illegal and wrong. Absolutely they need to be charged and so do the teachers that turned a blind eye. This goes way beyond "stupid" behavior of teenagers. It wasn't like they were driving too fast or doing some crazy stunt on a skateboard.
Posted by britne28[/QUOTE]

its the consequences you don't think about. you do things impulsively without thinking about the future.

BecW2be · March 2010

I'd personally sit in the administration's office all day, every day until someone did something about my kid being bullied, especially to this extent. This school failed that girl, and they should be held accountable. The first thing we tell our kids is to go to an adult if you are being bullied. WTF good is that if you aren't going to help when a kid does come to you?

Manda's ex-best friend popped her in the chin with a full water bottle a few months ago during an argument. Manda let it slip after the fact, and she won't stand up for herself, but I told that girl and her mother that the next time she decided to bust my daughter's chin, she needed to be sure it was after October of this year (her 18th birthday), because I really didn't want to go to jail for assault on a minor, but I'd do what I have to do to protect my kid.

crfische · March 2010

I've not once said they shouldn't be held accountable. They should be.

I have said, that I'd bet my pretty penny that there were a lot of bullies in high school who would love to have the opportunity as adults to apologize to kids they tormented because they weren't aware of what they were doing at the time.

Did they know they were teasing people? Of course. Did they know how that child felt afterwards? Probably not completely. Did they get positive feedback from their cronies for doing so? Absolutely. In order for them to fully realize this, do I think they need some adult intervention? YES.

What's the most important thing for a teenager? To fit in. Be cool. Make people laugh, and think you're awesome.

MY parents were very involved in my life. I knew right from wrong. I was taught to treat people with dignity and respect. My parents would have KICKED MY ASS if I did anything to hurt someone.

Not everyone has my parents.

britne28 · March 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:1ca98755-55ea-4ddb-ac3a-619c1cf6138f">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : its the consequences you don't think about. you do things impulsively without thinking about the future.
Posted by shellydiane820[/QUOTE]

I think people need to be careful of how often we say that about teenagers. They aren't sheltered anymore, consequences are out there. You'd have to be a sociopath to not know as a teenager, what they were doing was wrong. I'm sure a few of them are surprised they are being charged but still things like raping the girl, you know if you get caught you are getting charged.

andyandhillary · March 2010

I think another huge problem is the lack of school counselors. With the lack of funding in a lot of schools these are some of the first positions to get cut and they are so badly needed. Maybe it wouldn't have necessarily helped in this case but it would have helped in a lot. My high school had 3 counselors but all were completely awful at their jobs. In fact, I'd say that two of them were the kind of kids that did the bullying when they went to that same high school 15 years earlier. Kids have no one to talk to anymore and that's sad. Thank goodness my school had a peer listening program.

This whole story is sad

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