JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention

harper0813 · March 2013

I didn't get to jump in and give advice, but high five for taking advice so well, OP! Your anniversary party/vow renewal will be way more awesome than any "second wedding".

[Deleted User] · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jop-and-renewal-of-vows-etiquette-and-points-of-contention?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e38a5741-1a9f-445b-b43d-db41187e831bPost:a0cb2d0b-d909-4525-b968-5daf29a89537">Re:JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention : Unless you count naked swaying in our living room the night we got this house as dancing, my husband and I have never danced, either.
Posted by AddieL73[/QUOTE]

Well HELLO then.

Knottie_22382049 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jop-and-renewal-of-vows-etiquette-and-points-of-contention?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e38a5741-1a9f-445b-b43d-db41187e831bPost:e45081ed-f8c2-4655-b9d6-44cfaaad8c55">Re: JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>Thank you all for your perspective. I appreciate it. </strong> We cannot wait a year to have the marriage and ceremony combined for personal reasons connected to his involvement in the military. Vaugue, I know, I'm sorry. We cannot have it in the next few months because we live out of state, and I have no vacation time at my work until I have a year logged. My intention is not to have a PPD day, although I can see why it would be perceived that way. We just wanted to have a ceremony with our friends and extended family because we legitimately can't now and we legitimately can't wait. <strong>I really do appreciate all of your opinions and how unified they are. It sounds like the right thing to do is maybe have some sort of celebration but forgo the 'weddingness' of it all.</strong>
Posted by KNFinch[/QUOTE]
<div>
</div><div>Thank you for being awesome about taking our advice. Your vow renewal/anniversary party will be amazing. </div>

lennonkdc · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jop-and-renewal-of-vows-etiquette-and-points-of-contention?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e38a5741-1a9f-445b-b43d-db41187e831bPost:e45081ed-f8c2-4655-b9d6-44cfaaad8c55">Re: JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention</a>:
[QUOTE]Thank you all for your perspective. I appreciate it. We cannot wait a year to have the marriage and ceremony combined for personal reasons connected to his involvement in the military. Vaugue, I know, I'm sorry. We cannot have it in the next few months because we live out of state, and I have no vacation time at my work until I have a year logged. My intention is not to have a PPD day, although I can see why it would be perceived that way. We just wanted to have a ceremony with our friends and extended family because we legitimately can't now and we legitimately can't wait. I really do appreciate all of your opinions and how unified they are. It sounds like the right thing to do is maybe have some sort of celebration but forgo the 'weddingness' of it all.
Posted by KNFinch[/QUOTE]

<div>In RE: to the military aspect, my FI and I just attended his brother's wedding a few months back. Both he and his wife are in the military and they wanted to get married so they could PCS together out of Japan this year. They were married by a minister, on the beach, she wore a wedding dress, he wore a formal suit and all the family (Fi's mom and dad, Sis & H, FI &I and the brides aunt) in attendance had a wonderful meal at a nice restaurant afterwards. At one point they had thought about doing a VR/PPD later, but they just found out that she's KU, so they have scraped that plan. (I should also note that they threw together this wedding in about 5 weeks while living in Japan, and the wedding was in HI)</div><div>
</div><div>My advice is this, if you want to have a more traditional "Wedding" experience, have private ceremony next month- find a simple under stated wedding gown (FSIL found her dress of the rack at DB for $99 and it was perfect), hire a photographer, have the ceremony in a nice park and go out to a nice dinner (or lunch) afterwards. Then have a big anniversary party next year. Life in the military can be very unpredictable, as I have seen first hand. If you think you might feel that you missed out on having a 'Wedding' have a small one now. </div>

Peledreamsofrain · March 2013

Good for you. Also, another way to think of it is that wedding stuff is expensive and inflated in price. The more 'weddingness' you can trim, the more cash you free up to throw your guests the best freakin party they've ever been to. Blow their minds, keep the town up all night, have a freakin blast!

jemmini6 · March 2013

Perhaps you could film your wedding ceremony next month, and then at your anniversary party next year, just show the video of your actual vows? That way you can still share that moment with the entirety of your family and friends, rather than doing a re-creation. I'm sure they'd love to see the vows that actually made you husband and wife, not just a repeat.

You can still throw a kickass party though, do a spotlight dance, etc, but plan it as a party, not a wedding. And you can still buy an awesome dress, but you don't need to limit it by 'white or ivory' if you don't want to.

Best wishes with your wedding next month!!

happyfor25 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jop-and-renewal-of-vows-etiquette-and-points-of-contention?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e38a5741-1a9f-445b-b43d-db41187e831bPost:6354ba63-3ca8-4125-974a-fee9ee88c674">Re:JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention</a>:
[QUOTE]Good for you. Also, another way to think of it is that wedding stuff is expensive and inflated in price. The more 'weddingness' you can trim, the more cash you free up to throw your guests the best freakin party they've ever been to. Blow their minds, keep the town up all night, have a freakin blast!
Posted by Peledreamsofrain[/QUOTE]

Ditto.

As long as everyone is aware of the situation, who doesn't love a kicka** party?! I actually flew out of state to attend my brother's PPD and had a blast (his reasons were valid to him and I knew they were already married). Good luck and congratulations!

positivek · March 2013

A lot of these rules are lost on me, simply because the "rules" of what people do/wear/say to weddings have changed so much. And I think there's a reason for the fact that the world of weddings is moving away from a cookie cutter approach, but that's another topic.

I get where mom is going with this stuff, but given the aforementioned changes in the world of weddings, I think these kinds of worries about appearances are going to phase out. I.e., the dress thing- what a white dress is vs. what a wedding dress is, is very arbitrary, and no one is going to know either way unless they snap a picture of your dress and look it up online to see if some designer decided to call this a "wedding dress"- (and if someone actually did that, boy, they got bigger problems). And "white dress" vs. 'wedding dress" is also a matter of opinion. You could wear a dress like Carolyn Kennedy's. That was probably billed as a wedding dress by the designer. Someone will judge you because it looks to them like a wedding dress. Someone else will judge you because it looks to them like you decided to wear a negligee. There will always be something to go after. Always.

I've been to a wedding where the bride wore blue (which was billed as a "wedding dress" by the designer) and a vow renewal where the woman wore white. If someone was offended by the color choice of another's dress at a ceremony that's about a personal choice they've made, oh man, just, c'mon. What with all of the real problems out there...I was never perplexed as to what type of ceremony I was at given the dress color or presence/non-presence of attendants. I knew it was a wedding or a vow renewal- it was very, very clear to me- because what it was, was stated on the invitation. Personally, that was enough definition for me. I didn't need the ceremony or reception tailored to my tastes as to how I would define said event.

nda8414 · March 2013

If I was invited to a vow renewal for a couple that have only been married for a year, I would probably think it was awkward. I would think it was even more awkward to see a bride walk down an aisle, following bridesmaids all dressed in matching dresses, for a VOW RENEWAL. What you describe sounds an awful lot like a wedding.

Have you considered letting your parents throw you a first anniversary party?

TheBaysideBride · March 2013

YOur parents are right - what you want is an anniversary party, which is awesome, but you're not a bride and groom, you're a husband and wife. Have great good, a killer band, do all the things you want to do, but skip anything that's bridal, like a poufy white dress and attendants.

freebread03 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jop-and-renewal-of-vows-etiquette-and-points-of-contention?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e38a5741-1a9f-445b-b43d-db41187e831bPost:f1533182-7c26-4f1b-8bf3-f20d711348b1">Re: JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention : In RE: to the military aspect, my FI and I just attended his brother's wedding a few months back. Both he and his wife are in the military and they wanted to get married so they could PCS together out of Japan this year. <strong>They were married by a minister, on the beach, she wore a wedding dress, he wore a formal suit and all the family</strong> (Fi's mom and dad, Sis & H, FI &I and the brides aunt) in attendance had a wonderful meal at a nice restaurant afterwards. At one point they had thought about doing a VR/PPD later, but they just found out that she's KU, so they have scraped that plan. (I should also note that they threw together this wedding in about 5 weeks while living in Japan, and the wedding was in HI) My advice is this, if you want to have a more traditional "Wedding" experience, have private ceremony next month- find a simple under stated wedding gown (FSIL found her dress of the rack at DB for $99 and it was perfect), hire a photographer, have the ceremony in a nice park and go out to a nice dinner (or lunch) afterwards. Then have a big anniversary party next year. Life in the military can be very unpredictable, as I have seen first hand. If you think you might feel that you missed out on having a 'Wedding' have a small one now.
Posted by lennonkdc[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Wow, I didn't think I was that tired but I just read that as the minister wore a wedding dress and almost spit up what I was drinking. Sounds like your BIL had a great wedding!</div><div><div>
</div></div>

KNFinch · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jop-and-renewal-of-vows-etiquette-and-points-of-contention?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e38a5741-1a9f-445b-b43d-db41187e831bPost:8d653681-3c9d-43ac-9910-a4127b510879">Re: JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention</a>:
[QUOTE]A lot of these rules are lost on me, simply because the "rules" of what people do/wear/say to weddings have changed so much. And I think there's a reason for the fact that the world of weddings is moving away from a cookie cutter approach, but that's another topic. I get where mom is going with this stuff , but given the aforementioned changes in the world of weddings, I think these kinds of worries about appearances are going to phase out. I.e., the dress thing- what a white dress is vs. what a wedding dress is, is very arbitrary, and no one is going to know either way unless they snap a picture of your dress and look it up online to see if some designer decided to call this a "wedding dress"- (and if someone actually did that, boy, they got bigger problems). And "white dress" vs. 'wedding dress" is also a matter of opinion. You could wear a dress like Carolyn Kennedy's. That was probably billed as a wedding dress by the designer. Someone will judge you because it looks to them like a wedding dress. Someone else will judge you because it looks to them like you decided to wear a negligee. There will always be something to go after. Always. I've been to a wedding where the bride wore blue (which was billed as a "wedding dress" by the designer) and a vow renewal where the woman wore white. If someone was offended by the color choice of another's dress at a ceremony that's about a personal choice they've made, oh man, just, c'mon. What with all of the real problems out there...I was never perplexed as to what type of ceremony I was at given the dress color or presence/non-presence of attendants. I knew it was a wedding or a vow renewal- it was very, very clear to me- because what it was, was stated on the invitation. Personally, that was enough definition for me. I didn't need the ceremony or reception tailored to my tastes as to how I would define said event.
Posted by positivek[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Thank you positivek. This was my exact opinion prior to posting this and receiving an onslaught of arguments against it. I understand both positions and am curious to get your opinion on a couple other issues:</div><div>Do you think it is inappropriate to have a renewal of vows ceremony 1 year after the courthouse wedding? We were not planning on having a fancy exchange of vows at the JP but now I am feeling like we should and it's stressing me out about the JP, which was intended to be stress-less from the get go.</div><div>If you think its fine, what is your perspective on attendants and what is involved in the ceremony? I'm fine with not walking down the aisle with my dad cause he will have already given me away, but is there anything else you would find tacky?</div><div>
</div><div>I think people are imagining me having a huge fancy expensive ceremony with a big poofy white dress a year after the JP, which is not the case. It was going to be a simple and intimate garden affair. My perspective in the beginning was 'Who cares what people wear and if my friends want to stand up with me and if we want to write and share vows after a year of marriage and growth and love?' Obviously a lot of people care and think it is horrible, leaving me a bit perplexed and more thoughtful about what we are doing, which is good. But if you have any more (dissenting) opinions I'd be curious to hear them.</div><div>
</div><div>

</div>

artbyallie · March 2013

I was all afraid when I opened this post because we have rehashed this topic SO MANY TIMES this week, but it's a refreshing change of pace to see someone actually being open to real advice.

KN, for the record, my SIL got married two years ago to her husband who is in the Air Force. He had just finished training and was getting stationed within a few weeks of coming home. They were engaged in February and married in March (yes, of the same year) with a white (well, ivory) wedding dress, attendants, a reception, the whole deal. So it is possible even with a time crunch from the military to have the whole event on the same day.

As another person said, no one is forcing you to get married now. You want to get married now, and that's fine, but if you go to the courthouse (and you do have to say vows there; the marriage wouldn't be legal without them, even if it's just repeating 'I do'), then you shouldn't ask people to stand up for you at a pretend ceremony later that has no legality because you're already married. Why pretend at all? It doesn't allow anyone to witness your marriage, because they will have already missed that. It's just like putting on a play.

lennonkdc · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jop-and-renewal-of-vows-etiquette-and-points-of-contention?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e38a5741-1a9f-445b-b43d-db41187e831bPost:57babe30-e1ec-4805-9d0f-2cc474781df9">Re: JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention : Wow, I didn't think I was that tired but I just read that as the minister wore a wedding dress and almost spit up what I was drinking. Sounds like your BIL had a great wedding!
Posted by freebread03[/QUOTE]

<div>hahaha! </div><div>
</div><div>It was a lovely wedding, and proof that you can pull together someting wonderful, on a budget and in short notice :)</div>

positivek · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jop-and-renewal-of-vows-etiquette-and-points-of-contention?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e38a5741-1a9f-445b-b43d-db41187e831bPost:40849c83-e7d7-406e-ac12-9198f8b742ec">Re: JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: JOP and renewal of vows etiquette and points of contention : Thank you positivek. This was my exact opinion prior to posting this and receiving an onslaught of arguments against it. I understand both positions and am curious to get your opinion on a couple other issues: Do you think it is inappropriate to have a renewal of vows ceremony 1 year after the courthouse wedding? We were not planning on having a fancy exchange of vows at the JP but now I am feeling like we should and it's stressing me out about the JP, which was intended to be stress-less from the get go. If you think its fine, what is your perspective on attendants and what is involved in the ceremony? I'm fine with not walking down the aisle with my dad cause he will have already given me away, but is there anything else you would find tacky? I think people are imagining me having a huge fancy expensive ceremony with a big poofy white dress a year after the JP, which is not the case. It was going to be a simple and intimate garden affair. My perspective in the beginning was 'Who cares what people wear and if my friends want to stand up with me and if we want to write and share vows after a year of marriage and growth and love?' Obviously a lot of people care and think it is horrible, leaving me a bit perplexed and more thoughtful about what we are doing, which is good. But if you have any more (dissenting) opinions I'd be curious to hear them.
Posted by KNFinch[/QUOTE]

Man oh man, KNFinch. You are throwing me into the fire here...alternative perspectives can be seriously looked on...not fondly ;)

As stated before, <em>I get their intentions. </em>I see where they're trying to go with it. I just don't know if the world is as black and white (as it used to be- outwardly anyway) to support it. The world is a less homogenous place in terms of how people express their intent. You're going to have people that don't even like that you have any type of ceremony at all. Or if you have a cake. Or if you dance. You will drive yourself crazy trying to prevent side-eyeing. Some people live for it. Do you have people like this in your life? Jump off from there.

Do I think the ceremony is a problem? Personally- and I'm not going to stand up here and shout 'MY WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY IT IS THE ONLY WAY" like some fire and brimstone preacher, I'm just going to give you my opinion- when I think it's a problem to say "your vows" in front of other people, is when someone else is tailoring the ceremony built around and inherently tied to them (do they want final approval on what you say too)? That to me is no longer you and FI's "vow renewal ceremony". It starts to sound like the parents' "presentation ceremony" of their daughter's and new SIL's social contract- their way of closing the circle on this rite of passage. You've fulfilled the legal requirement, now your public declaration ceremony would be the social requirement- a publicly made pledge. But it doesn't sound like it's yours.

And that's what comes with the money. Do you want a vow renewal ceremony authentic to you? Or are you ok with them constructing it, down to potentially telling you what to say, for the sake of the cash to pay for the party? I wouldn't be. If it were me, I'd throw out the ceremony altogether, and make it about just celebrating the union at a party. If you felt you really needed that ceremony to make that public declaration for your OWN sense of fulfilling the social contract... best thing is to refuse the money and all the strings attached, and do what felt right. How will that "look"? I'll get to that.

My perspective on what you add- attendants, what you wear, etc. is that I honestly do not care. They're all kind of silly traditions anyway- the original reasons for the white dresses/veils and bridesmaids don't apply anymore..I get to thinking, why does <em>anyone</em> have them at all? I think the answer is people are deciding for themselves what these symbols mean- and I'm ok with that- but they definitely do not mean what they did when they were created.

I do understand why some people feel strongly about it. I'm different. I don't see the ceremony as about myself as a guest. I don't see the ceremony as some sort greater social commentary on people who felt the JOP was all that was necessary. I don't see it as disrespect to the legal rights. It's not my business to decide what they felt was personally necessary for their psyche, or vice versa. I see the ceremony as about one thing- the couple. And if I hypothetically did have an issue? Well, then just as I would if I had seriously strong objections to the union...I'd just not go. Problem solved. But I've got bigger fish to fry, and while I've certainly heard the arguments on loop against these vow renewals, I haven't heard anything compelling enough to really stand up and say 'WHOA that's just AWFUL". I've seen awful. Incorporating what are traditionally known as wedding trimmings into a vow renewal or commitment ceremony doesn't come close to truly awful things I've seen.

That doesn't mean there aren't hypothetically people in your life that will care. Your parents obviously do. Do you want to tangle with them on this one? These are the people in your life, and you have to deal with them for life. No matter how low key this is, some people might not come at all because they don't take it seriously- it isn't the legal wedding after all, and in some people's minds (excuse me for sounding blunt here) that's really the only part worth traveling for- your public declaration doesn't mean jack. Doesn't make it right. But it could be that way.

What's right or wrong is in your heart- nobody can take that away. But they CAN take away their approval of what you do, and be they right or wrong for judging, it's up to you how important it is to do what feels right, vs. how important their approval is- determining who approves of what, and whose approval matters, and when.

Only you can make that call.

KNFinch · March 2013

Thank you so much to everyone for your thoughtful responses, especially positivek. After my fury brought on by the conversation with my parents and reading everyone's thoughts and opinions I have decided to just throw an awesome anniversary party. I have already told my parents and they can either be involved in the planning of it or not. I will turn my focus to that after my wedding day, the Justice of the Peace.

I will probably mourn the little things I was excited about from a more traditional ceremony style for a couple of days but it is a battle I do not feel like fighting with my parents. I'm sure I will now have to deal with extended family and close friends being offended at not being involved in the wedding itself, but that is okay.

Thank you again and keep on soldiering on. Sorry to those who feel like this horse has been beaten to death on this forum. I was not aware of that as I am new to this community. You all have valid opinions and helpful advice, but please be gentle to your newcomers.

Best wishes.

zantster · March 2013

I really, really wish this particular thread could be a sticky and used as a reference for other similar requests for advice re:Vow Renewals, JOP, PPD, etc. Everyone was helpful, considerate and open minded and there wasn't a lot of ego on either side. Great going knotties!

chelseamb11 · March 2013

I'm really glad I never got on TK 4 years ago to know how weird a PPD is.

I stood up in a wedding in Summer 2009. They had gotten JOP married in December of 2008 (they wanted the tax break) and then did a huge PPD in July of 09. Looking back, it was super rude of them (they even call the PPD their anniversary!!) and had I known that, I probably would have declined.

That being said...I never would have even dated my H if I hadn't stood up in that wedding. His brother was on my arm that day and it's how I reconnected with BIL, SIL and eventually H.

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