Let's have a friendly debate, shall we?

pristinedemon · January 2010

I'm also kind of on the fence on this one. Yes, there are people who probably don't deserve to live, but who are we to decide that? Pragmatically speaking though, there are a lot of costs that go into keeping someone in prison. They get 3 meals a day, a clean room, clean clothes, they get to watch TV, and generally get to be taken care of without working, on the taxpayers' dime. I consider the death penalty to be the lesser of two evils in this case.

sarah0725 · January 2010

While I try to keep my opinions on the death penalty logical rather than emotional (humans are fallible, therefore we should not administer permanent punishments), I'm kind of shocked at how many people here seem to think that being in a maximum security prison is some kind of cakewalk. Have you guys ever been to prison? How long do you think you would last?

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · January 2010

Oh man, I haven't even touched on the racism that goes into convictions. Across the board, not just in terms of the death penalty.

I think it's kind of weird that people are talking about how criminals should be put to death for rape and child molestation when, from what I know, you almost always need a first degree murder conviction to be sentenced to death.

JCS2011 · January 2010

I'm against it.

Partly because I personally could not be the one to flip the switch/ inject the poison/ whatever. Since it's not something I would be able to do, it's not something I can expect someone else to do for me.

Another reason I'm against it is because I don't really think it does what people expect it to do. As was pointed out earlier, it doesn't actually deter crime. Also, I think a lot of stock is put into the idea that it is being done for the victim and their family. I don't really see what good it does for either. Having someone killed isn't going to undo what happened. It seems that there's this idea that if the perpetrator is put to death, then everything will be better. I really don't think that's the case though.

pooh8402 · January 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_lets-friendly-debate-shall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:9df32616-24fe-40a7-92e5-394f5f104237Post:63fcc390-2316-4b8b-8037-2d351e68567c">Re: Let's have a friendly debate, shall we?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Let's have a friendly debate, shall we? : I have to admit that I'm not positive. But yes, it would make sense that if executions happened more quickly it would likely lower the cost. But a lot of the drug out process is the fault of the legal system. Inmates are entitled to appeals, and sadly, the justice system tends to be so inundated that it's just not possible to move through quickly. Now, if there was a plausible way to speed up the process, then yes, my guess would be that it would lower the cost. Whether or not it would make it lower than life in prison, I can't reasonably guess at. But it certainly would be a possibility.
Posted by JK10910[/QUOTE]
which is why squirrly brought it up in her first post: put a limit on appeals. limit the reasons, limit the time, and you will limit the money.

JK10910 · January 2010

I love this. I'm glad I started it, there are a lot more "fors" than there were the last time we talked about it.

Stackeye210 · January 2010

JK - I think you raise good points. It's such a grey area though. I personally don't think if a family member of mine was killed by someone that I could stand up in court and say, "I want them to die too". I think I'd ask they be put to prison for life, I think I could only find forgiveness if I let them live.

So I'm torn. I couldn't recommend someone be put to death for my own personal satisfaction or "payback" for a crime I'm attached to, but I don't see a problem with it in other heinous cases. I guess I'm a hypocrite on the subject in some ways.

I don't think the death penalty can be fought one way or the other until the justice system is fixed from its many flaws.

JK10910 · January 2010

But Pooh, you can't limit someone's due process. I mean, you could, but you'd have to change the Constitution. Appeals are part of due process, and it's not their fault the Court is swamped. Yes, some of them are tactics to buy time, absolutely, and if those could be eliminated or limited, I'd be all for it. But I don't see how you could weed out the time buying ones from the legitimate ones.

laurenclaire1386 · January 2010

Yeah Sarah, I don't know what prisons in other states are like, but I've seen the max security prison in Louisiana. Angola is certainly not a cakewalk. From the documentaries I've seen on the place (where they did prisoner interviews), if you are a child molester, the chances of a fellow prisoner doing you in or seriously injuring you are pretty high. Even the inmates at Angola have some sort of moral compass and feel a need to punish people who commit certain crimes.

JK10910 · January 2010

Stack, I don't find you to be a hypocrite at all. FWIW, I find it admirable and intelligent that you can recognize you have thoughts and feelings that go both ways, and admit to it. Anyway, we can't really say how we'd feel until it actually happened to us, and I firmly believe you can look at something subjectively and objectively and have two different reactions. I think that's normal, and insightful that you can recognize it.

lyndausvi · January 2010

I watch the Discovery ID channel a lot (a little too much actually). As much as I want some of these people to die. I always remember the shows where guilty people are now found innocent after years and years in jail and that makes me question if it's right or not.

So my answer is, if there is 100% proof in the form of video tape and many, many eye witnesses, the person is caught red handed then I'm for it. (think Fort Hood, or Columbine).

If it's only based on circumstantial edvidence, then I always will wonder if they were really innocent.

pooh8402 · January 2010

I've had patients that were prisoners at the maximum security prison in Huntsville. yea, it's not the same cakewalk as the minimum or medium security prisons, but it's definitely not solitary confinement for 23 hours a day either. they do get some perks that I have to pay for on my own. like: 3 meals a day, place to live, clean clothes, workout area, cable tv, books. that's in the maximum security prison. yea.

polichik · January 2010

I know people hate when others drop "I'm a lawyer/PhD/etc," but it's so relevant to how I feel. If you'd asked me to years ago, I would say that I was pro-death penalty in concept, but against it in practice because of the possibility that an innocent person could be wrongly convicted and put to death. Just think of all of those people exectued before DNA was even used in convictions. That makes me sick.

Now, after learning about what causes psychopathology and anti-social personality disorder (think Dexter), I can't get behind it, even in horriffic cases. I don't believe that anyone is a "bad" person. Sometimes, people are born without the ability to process emotions and empathy the way we do. Other times, something awful happened to them in their childhood that caused the same thing. Does that make them innocent and not held accountable for their crimes? Of course not. But I couldn't put them to death over it.

I do, however, think that life in prison should mean life in prison, not 8 years. And I think that rape should carry a much tougher sentence than it does.

squirrly · January 2010

Nope, I've not been to prision. But, I haven't killed anyone. So, I don't really see how that's a fair question.

They KILLED someone. Their victim is dead. OR they committed a sexual crime that has been proven to have significant lifelong effects on the victim, including a higher likelihood that the victim will themselves become an abuser in the future.

They deserve the most horrible existance, or lack of existance, possible in my opinion. And, as I have a few friends whose careers bring them in close contact with criminals on a daily basis (police, criminal attorneys, corrections officers), I've gotten a decent description of what the conditions are that those criminals live in. They're not all potential death penalty subjects, but they are MOSTLY all too "soft" given the crime committed, in my opinion.

And, mery, different states have different requirements for the death penalty. In some states, it's any crime committed with a weapon, etc. I saw a listing once, but I didn't find it googling quickly.

mwhitson14 · January 2010

I used to be for it, but now I'm against after dealing with a situation that made me change my mind.

My old youth pastor was arrested almost 3 years ago for molestation, and the girl's father (she was 16, 19 now) wanted him to die. Obviously, this was more of a father's rage than anything, because of course you can't get the death penalty for that. However, he still to this day maintains his innocence (it was basically a case of he said-she said). I just can't imagine this man, husband of 25 years, father of 8, amazing youth pastor, to be put to death over it. And every time something comes up where they debate the death penalty, I always think of him. The person sentenced to die is someone's father, son, husband. His life means something to someone, and I don't think it's fair for us to say, take his life away, he doesn't deserve to live.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · January 2010

Eye to eye, Poli. Eye to eye.

squirrly · January 2010

JK, you said you wanted a debate, so I'm debating. Ordinarily, I'd state my opinion and move on, so please don't anybody get the wrong idea here.

I have NO issue with constitutional changes to implement a better method of ensuring justice is properly served. If it's possible to determine what improvements should be made - let's make them.

I also agree that life in prision is a JOKE in many places, because life is 25 years, and then less once parole is applied. If life without parole literally meant until you died, I might be more flexible on my opinion. But, they cite needing space in prision for new offenders as a reason to offer parole, and I think that's wrong. Build more cells.

danieliza1127 · January 2010

I'm responding without reading all of the responses.

I'm against the death penalty. I have a Masters in Criminology which I'm sure affects my reasoning.

Putting someone to death is more expensive than housing them in prison. Also, the criminal justice system is fallible. Innocent people are put death and have been put to death. Also, I can't grasp the logic that it's not okay for me to kill someone, but it's okay for the State to kill people and it's okay for the U.S. government to kill people and it's okay for soldiers to kill people. Who gets to pick and choose? It's either illegal and morally wrong or it's not.

Also, and criminal justice research has proven this time and again, it is NOT a deterrent for crime. In order for a punishment to be a deterrent is needs to be swift and immediate. People sit on death row for 10-20 years filing appeal after appeal. It has been proven that it is not a deterrent for crime, so what it really is, is a punishment and revenge from the victims. I get wanting revenge for your family member's killer, I really do. I can't imagine going through something like that. But the criminal justice system shouldn't be used for revenge. That's not the purpose of it and not the purpose of punishment.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · January 2010

Squirrly, I am definitely no expert on the judicial system on a state-by-state basis. I know in California some people were either talking about or trying to get the death penalty in a serial rapist case and it was a big leagal no-no.

Pirata13 · January 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_lets-friendly-debate-shall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:9df32616-24fe-40a7-92e5-394f5f104237Post:9d655d99-6deb-4a2a-a3ce-7a3be07d7b97">Re: Let's have a friendly debate, shall we?</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>Personally I think the family and friends of the victim should be allowed to do to the murderer, what the murderer did to the victim. I am for the death penalty.
</strong>Posted by momofayden[/QUOTE]

This. The old eye for an eye. yeah if you tortured someone to death, that's how you should go.

danieliza1127 · January 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_lets-friendly-debate-shall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:9df32616-24fe-40a7-92e5-394f5f104237Post:d4cec994-33c2-4e92-bb77-c2cf7455b7f8">Re: Let's have a friendly debate, shall we?</a>:
[QUOTE]Re: killing innocent people that PPs brought up. I just heard in the news that a man that had been in Angola prison for 30 years was acquitted with DNA testing. I think more innocent people have been executed than anyone is willing to admit.
Posted by laurenclaire1386[/QUOTE]

I don't even think it's an issue of not wanting to admit it, I think there's just no way to actually know how many innocent people have been killed. DNA evidence has come so far just in the last 20-30 years, imagine the people that were put to death before it existed at all when all there was to go on was eye witness testimony which has been proven to be the LEAST reliable evidence of all.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · January 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_lets-friendly-debate-shall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:9df32616-24fe-40a7-92e5-394f5f104237Post:1a3ab1ce-280a-4515-835a-06187dbce2cd">Re: Let's have a friendly debate, shall we?</a>:
[QUOTE] I also agree that life in prison is a JOKE in many places, because life is 25 years, and then less once parole is applied. If life without parole literally meant until you died, I might be more flexible on my opinion. But, they cite needing space in prison for new offenders as a reason to offer parole, and I think that's wrong. Build more cells.
Posted by squirrly[/QUOTE]

I definitely agree with this. But then, I also think drug laws should be scrapped and rewritten so we don't have so many people in jail for things like growing marijuana. But that's a whole other debate.

squirrly · January 2010

Mery, come join us in the south. There's more flexibility here.

lyndausvi · January 2010

I have a friend who was in the St Croix jail for rape.

backstory: He was a bartender. This girl was a regular before he even started at this job. He hooked up with her, her dad freaked out beause she was only 16. The drinking age in 18 in St Thomas and this girl had a fake ID. He honestly did not know because the older bartenders describe her has a regular at the bar.

My friend ended up with a 10 year sentence. Oh the same day he was sentenced, another guy got 18 months for raping his 13 year niece.

Anyway, he said you can not even imagine the St Criox jail. One one hand it's a joke, the female guards routinely have sex with inmates and it's a status symbol to get pregnant by them. Most people have cell phones, laptops, TV, drugs, fast food etc.

The flip side, it's downright gross. The mold in the showers are a few inches thick (I've seen pictures). The cells are not fit for any human regardless of the crime. It's so bad that this friends has pictures and is going to write a book about the experience after everything is taken care of (he is out of jail now, just waiting on a few more things to happen before he pisses of the wrong people by writing the book)

JK10910 · January 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_lets-friendly-debate-shall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:9df32616-24fe-40a7-92e5-394f5f104237Post:1a3ab1ce-280a-4515-835a-06187dbce2cd">Re: Let's have a friendly debate, shall we?</a>:
[QUOTE]JK, you said you wanted a debate, so I'm debating. Ordinarily, I'd state my opinion and move on, so please don't anybody get the wrong idea here. I have NO issue with constitutional changes to implement a better method of ensuring justice is properly served. If it's possible to determine what improvements should be made - let's make them. I also agree that life in prision is a JOKE in many places, because life is 25 years, and then less once parole is applied. If life without parole literally meant until you died, I might be more flexible on my opinion. But, they cite needing space in prision for new offenders as a reason to offer parole, and I think that's wrong. Build more cells.
Posted by squirrly[/QUOTE]

I agree with many of your points. Most strongly, I agree with what you stated about life not actually being life, and that it should be. However, it's not as easy as just building more cells, though I'm sure you realize that.

My one major point to debate with you is you said "a better method of ensuring justice is properly served." Justice, frankly, is a subjective term. So who is to decide what is better, what is justice, and what makes it properly served?

ac_in_dc · January 2010

I disagree with squirrly and others that talk about what inmates and people who commit crimes "deserve" in terms of suffering.

Yeah, I mean, it would be great if we all got what we deserved in life, but that's just not how it is. And I don't think it's possible or even advisable for us to give people "what they deserve" in a legal sense when they do something wrong.
Some people suffer immeasurably for the wrongs they have committed in life, but most of that they inflict on themselves. Some people are sociopaths and its impossible to make them feel pain.

I think the point of a justice system is to deter future crimes and keep our streets safe. Secondarily, if it can help rehabilitate some folks, great.

polichik · January 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_lets-friendly-debate-shall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:9df32616-24fe-40a7-92e5-394f5f104237Post:bd21184c-9f22-4b33-9b7f-b51b1a12f7d7">Re: Let's have a friendly debate, shall we?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Let's have a friendly debate, shall we? : This. The old eye for an eye. yeah if you tortured someone to death, that's how you should go.
Posted by Pirata13[/QUOTE]
Edit: Sorry, the quote was supposed to be from the pp who said that she thought that the family members should be the ones to actually do the execution. Push the button, etc.

I totally respect your opinion, but this horrifies me. I think it's bad enough bringing children to watch their father's/mother's/sister's/brother's murderer die. The traumatic effects could be as awful as the actual family member's death, depending on the age of the child and the manner of execution.

I have no sympathy for rapists and murderers, but so many times I wonder what my life would have been like if I had had the existence and childhood horrors of my clients. Once again, it's not an excuse for their actions, but it's easy for me to condemn people with a skewed sense of morality from my comfy couch surrounded by loved ones.

If somebody I loved was killed or raped, I'd want justice. But unless the murder was caught on tape, there would probably be a possibility that the person I wanted dead was innocent. Might be small, but it's probably still there. I couldn't live with that.

JK10910 · January 2010

Very well said, Dani and Poli. Bravo.

Also, spinning off AC, again, giving someone "what they deserve" to me, is enacting revenge. Once again, the government's job is not to get revenge. Also, who should decide what they deserve?

rhodesign · January 2010

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Truer words have never been spoken, inmho. BUT, that's my emotional side.

Logically speaking, I have a little insight into the prison system, due to having some f-d up family memebers who've been in and out. I've never been, but I've heard all about how things operate.

1. As for them getting free food, laundry, TV, etc. yes that's true to an extent. And not all of it is paid for by tax dollars. First off, at least in medium security in IL, there is no free cable TV, and TV time is very limited. If you want things like magazines, candy bars, soap, deodorant, toothpaste, etc. the inmate has to pay for it themselves--either by working within the prison or by having money given to them by family. Almost all of the inner-workings are done by inmates--laundry, sometimes cooking, library (with donated books). A lot of this prison society is set up as such, I think at least, to try to teach the inmates how to function properly in society in hopes that when released, they can live as decent human beings. It doesn't always happen, obviously, but I for one support the idea of trying to at least make a functional being out of a prisoner while serving their time--that can only (hopefully) help them to not repeat their offense.

2. I have a distant relative serving time for a terrible terrible God-awful crime and was sentenced to death for it. The former Governor (about 10 years ago) commuted all the sentences, so now she's serving consecutive life sentences. The family of their victim are not getting their loved one back no matter if she lives or dies. The eye for an eye thing--does it really make anyone feel better? I'd be curious to talk to them and anyone in that situation and see how they really feel about it. I in no way think she's innocent, but I can't say she should die, just as she shouldn't have decided to kill someone else. And this isn't emotiona for mel--we weren't close and I barely knew her. It just doesn't make sense to me to say someone should die, even if emotionally we feel that way

danieliza1127 · January 2010

And, on the eye for an eye debate, again this is just revenge on your part. If a sociopath tortures and kills a woman, and as punishment you torture and kill him - he won't care! A sociopath wouldn't feel any remorse, he would feel pain from the torture, but he wouldn't feel the emotional response or empathy that you hope the torture will make him feel for his victim. It's just not possible. He can't. So again, it would just be a way for you to somehow feel better, although I can't imagine it would actually make anyone feel better.

Let's have a friendly debate, shall we?

Re: Let's have a friendly debate, shall we?

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