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An interesting Dear Prudence

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Re: An interesting Dear Prudence

  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:81edfb94-32ea-440e-a54a-3726f2afe6e3">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : This is where we disagree.  I think backpedalling and saying we will just say it never happened is never ok.  <strong>Standing up for the rights of your congregation to terminate a marriage that is desrcutive, harmful or potentially dangerous should be done so out loud and in front of everyone not behind the doors of some tribunal. </strong>
    Posted by Dot Dash[/QUOTE]

    <div>
    </div><div>But I don't disagree with you on this, Dot,  however there should be an option for some privacy...like in my case. I wouldn't have wanted to go before my congregation and state the circumstances of my case...it was hard enough to state it in the paperwork as it was and sent me back to counselling. On the flip side of it though, the tribunals are made up of lay people and church officiants...I know that the people who gave witness statements on my behalf were interviewed, and my ex was given the chance to refute my assertions (he didn't dare).  </div><div>
    </div><div>If there were a happy medium to be reached, then I'd suggest that the person asking for the annulment be allowed to decide whether or not they'd prefer the tribunal or the congregation.  Sort of like opting for a trial by judge versus trial by jury.</div>
  • oh, and I think Chels has a hard time explaining herself because her views make absolutely no effing sense.  
  • So if i have an eptopic pregnancy i have to lose my tube and hope i ovulate from the good side every month instead of terminating the pregnancy that will be lost anyway. Not to mention going under a risky surgery to remove that tube instead if taking an injection that will terminate it. Totally rational.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:17553adc-2cfb-488e-9147-1e0d7138bfc2">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : All true but the bible also calls for the killing of people under certian circumstances.  Why do we hold fast to some scripture and not others?  It is all about choice. 
    Posted by Dot Dash[/QUOTE]

    Well, as a Catholic, I don't believe in Sola Scriptura.  I don't believe in only looking at Scripture alone and taking everything literally.

    I think a lot of the stories of the Old testament were figurative or influenced by the culture of the time.  There is nothing in the New testament to allow for killing.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  The Church's beliefs are supported by Scripture, but they are also shaped by the oral Tradition and the Magisterium.

    But like I said before, I don't see my views on abortion as a religious issue at all.  There are plenty of pro-life atheists.

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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:4587059b-e878-493e-9aea-e669d05a0adb">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : This, of course, is the problem.  How do we determine what values should be represented?  Do we really vote on every issue?  If one day 2/3 of the population thought that stealing was okay, should we change the laws?  And if we did vote, *if* the majority voted to ban abortion (I'm not saying that would happen), would the pro-choicers accept this decision and go along with it? Alas, these are the difficulties of democracy.
    Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

    <div>Well, by way of the separation of church and state I do not believe that the religious views of one group should be put above any others. In many countries the separation of church and state does NOT exist. In those counties (some of which I have lived in), I do not expect the laws of the country to be different from the religion of the majority of the population. </div><div>
    </div><div>However, when a country decides that the church should not be help in a position of authority within the government system I believe that the religious views of specific groups should not be given priority in any way. There are many people who are pro-life regardless of their faith. However, there are also many people of faith who recognize that their faith affects their choices and not those of others.  </div><div>
    </div><div>I also do believe in the role of referendums on big issues. Of course I am also a believer in central government making those choices, not local government, which is a huge difference between the government in Canada and the government system in the US. </div>
  • give me a non-religious reason for being pro-life. I have actually never met an athiest that is pro-life from conception. Likewise, I've never had someone give me a reason for being pro-life from conception that was founded in religion.
  • NebbNebb member
    10000 Comments 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:f2bf97a6-56d6-4226-a681-e360fc5de438">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : I feel bad for the woman too.  But again, feeling bad for a woman who is in such a difficult situation doesn't mean I think she should abort her child.  How does this make sense?  Of course I'm not going to support this legislation.  I don't support any legislation that allows killing.  This isn't an issue to me of whether people can force their beliefs on each other.  This is an issue of whether killing is I don't support forcing religious beliefs on people.  I have a lot of religious beliefs I wouldn't push on people.  To me, the scientific evidence that a fetus is a living, genetically complete human being is enough to convince me that killing it is wrong.  The same as killing any other human being.  That is why <strong>I would outlaw abortion</strong>, not because I want to make everyone follow the Catholic Church.  And that is why I won't respect other people's beliefs on this issue.
    Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]
    I know we arent supposed to judge peoples beliefs, but I judge the FUUUCK out of this. Your opinions are disgusting. People like you should be outlawed.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:3c69d5ac-28d4-450c-b24c-199adb0012ee">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : Hmm...well clearly you have all the anwers - for you, which has pretty much been my point all along. I am happy that you know what you would do if you were 2 months pregnant with three children at home and had to face the decision of dying (and leaving the first three children without a mother) or trying to carry a baby to term because it would be wrong to save yourself. I don't know what I would do and I am happy that I get a choice in the matter. I am also happy that you get a choice in the matter. And your choice to choose the baby over your own life doesn't affect my choice to choose my life over the baby.  That's what I love about choice, my choice doesn't affect your choice. 
    Posted by number55[/QUOTE]

    What *I* would do has nothing to do with it.

    I don't base my moral beliefs on my feelings or what I would do in a really difficult situation.  In terrible situations, we don't always make the right choices.

    If I were in such a situation, maybe I would contemplate abortion.  I would hope that I would have people around me to talk me out of it and remind me of why it's wrong. 

    Your choice DOES affect your baby's choice to live.  That's my problem with your choice.  If your choice only affected you, then whatever.  But it doesn't.

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  • Edie, I'm sorry. I just read this whole thread... are you planning on actually contributing anything any time soon?
  • I can't believe I made it through this thread without my head exploding.  I've now learned that I'm akin to slave owners.  That's news to me.

    The issue that I have with "pro-life" (terminology that I despise) is the assumption that the rights of the fetus automatically trumps the rights of the woman carrying the fetus.  There's no point in arguing this because there is no fucking way that monkey is ever in a million years going to reach any sort of agreement with me, particularly if she thinks that being pro-choice is only a little different from being a slaveowner.

    THIS (the quote from swimbikepuke) is the best explanation for pro-choiceness that I've ever seen articulated.

    And the idea that giving someone advice to divorce will be the deciding factor in their divorce is laughable.
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  • @ Nebb

    Oh well.  Guess not all views are tolerated.

    @ Steph

    http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

    There's a mixture of views here.  Some are against abortion in all circumstances, some have exceptions.  But the main belief is summed up: ""... because life is all there is and all that matters, and abortion destroys the life of an innocent human being."

    @ Everyone else

    I'm ducking out now because I've got to get some dinner.  I've enjoyed the discussion.  Sorry for pissing people off, but thanks to those that at least heard me out and didn't flame me. 

    If you want to ask me more questions, argue with me, flame me, or whatever, feel free to keep posting or PM me or whatever.  I'm not trying to avoid you, I just gotta take a break.

    Peace.

    SaveSave
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:2e0a5fb8-8e97-4e8a-a22d-bdee9bc35160">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : What *I* would do has nothing to do with it. I don't base my moral beliefs on my feelings or what I would do in a really difficult situation.  In terrible situations, we don't always make the right choices. If I were in such a situation, maybe I would contemplate abortion.  I would hope that I would have people around me to talk me out of it and remind me of why it's wrong.  Y<strong>our choice DOES affect your baby's choice to live.</strong>  That's my problem with your choice.  If your choice only affected you, then whatever.  But it doesn't.
    Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

    <div>fetus = parasite, not baby.  Literally. parasite. </div><div>
    </div><div>But I'm not really thinking this is going to have any effect on you. I kind of gave up after reading your comparison of black people to fetuses. </div><div>
    </div><div>HEY! My fetus is part black. I guess that makes it extra non-human. </div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:2e0a5fb8-8e97-4e8a-a22d-bdee9bc35160">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : What *I* would do has nothing to do with it. I don't base my moral beliefs on my feelings or what I would do in a really difficult situation.<strong>  In terrible situations, we don't always make the right choices.</strong> If I were in such a situation, maybe I would contemplate abortion.  I would hope that I would have people around me to talk me out of it and remind me of why it's wrong.  Your choice DOES affect your baby's choice to live.  That's my problem with your choice.  If your choice only affected you, then whatever.  But it doesn't.
    Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

    <div>You nominated you to decide what the right choice is for me?</div>
  • NebbNebb member
    10000 Comments 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:f5012c32-aff0-4a8a-a92b-2e1f09b79fd2">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]@ Nebb Oh well.  Guess not all views are tolerated.
    Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]
    When your view is that my rights should be taken away, you can bet your ass that view isnt tolerated.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:ffe5633f-2048-4e18-8a9a-4448812f61c1">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : You missed my point.  I am not saying have th congregation choose.  I am saying have the balls to stand up and say that people in abusive marriages can get the fluck out if they need to instead of this outdated idea that marriage is for life no matter what.  To me annulments are bs back door ways to get around their own rules because they don't have the balls to say we were wrong. 
    Posted by Dot Dash[/QUOTE]

    <div>
    </div><div>Oh! I got your point now...sorry, the thread is fast and I'm trying to follow it and clean up after supper...I see your point, though. As a Catholic, I don't take marriage lightly and believe that an annulment shouldn't be granted just because someone wants to remarry in the Church. But I absolutely agree that people in abusive relationships absolutely should get out, and the Church isn't so out dated that it wouldn't annul the marriage...I don't think that there would be anyone in my congregation that would disagree with you.</div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:cdcacf28-bf4e-4d8d-988c-9d813407acea">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : You nominated you to decide what the right choice is for me?
    Posted by number55[/QUOTE]

    <div>I'd venture to say that there are definitely cases where abortion is the best possible option for a future baby.  And to think otherwise is so wholly naive I can't even comprehend it.</div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:bd4cd328-21ca-48e9-886d-b78bf8119475">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : I'd venture to say that there are definitely cases where abortion is the best possible option for a future baby.  And to think otherwise is so wholly naive I can't even comprehend it.
    Posted by Steph+J[/QUOTE]
    Yeah but she has her research though...
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:da2e1497-ac4e-4006-a69c-368930ecda84">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : Yeah but she has her research though...
    Posted by LetsHikeToday[/QUOTE]

    <div>So did Mery. That's all I need to say about that.</div>
  • Monkey, if abortion were illegal then no, all views would not be tolerated because people wouldn't get to choose to follow their own beliefs. You saying ey aren't tolerated because it is legal makes absolutely no sense. Everyone now can make the choice to follow what they believe. How is that not tolerating views?
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:25501b99-3696-4c28-91eb-8bb4caf19160">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]Monkey, if abortion were illegal then no, all views would not be tolerated because people wouldn't get to choose to follow their own beliefs. You saying ey aren't tolerated because it is legal makes absolutely no sense. Everyone now can make the choice to follow what they believe. How is that not tolerating views?
    Posted by pixiedust84[/QUOTE]
    This is exactly what I was thinking but couldn't figure out how to say it. <div>
    </div><div>Monkey- your views ARE tolerated because you don't HAVE to get an abortion. By creating the law you believe in then people wouldn't be allowed. Do you see the difference?</div>
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  • LizzieyounceLizzieyounce member
    2500 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited June 2012
    This has been an interesting thread...I have to bow out for a while. My daughter needs help with her bath...she dislocated her ankle the other day and I have to hike her upstairs...
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:25f305b3-c3f2-45b4-b7f1-038f28c10071">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : This is exactly what I was thinking but couldn't figure out how to say it.  Monkey- your views ARE tolerated because you don't HAVE to get an abortion. By creating the law you believe in then people wouldn't be allowed. Do you see the difference?
    Posted by LetsHikeToday[/QUOTE]



    Maybe monkey is off re-thinking things :-)
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  • Ok I'm super late to respond. But Chels, I am quite aware that divorce does not = being safe from an abuser. Clearly. The point is that it is a huge mental step for a battered woman, and to not help guide her in that respect is really mind boggling to me. I have worked with battered women so maybe its just a hot button thing for me. 
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  • In the heavy "agree with Prudence" camp. Honestly, I could forgive potentially more than I would even want DH to know I could forgive. I would forgive him cheating, in all liklihood. I would forgive him possibly even not being straight up on finances, depending on the situation. This, though? No. It is to cold, to calculating and too fundementally important to your whole life. Wow.
  • allisong23allisong23 member
    Fifth Anniversary 1000 Comments
    edited June 2012
    Chels, I am sure the women on this board who have made the difficult choice to have an abortion really appreciate being called a murderer. Especially since at least one of them had to make that choice after a rape.

    Eff you.

    Oh, I divorced after beiong married in the Church and am now remarried without an annulment. We baptized my son yesterday. The Church is willing to convalidate our marriage with no annulment.

    ETA typo
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  • Ahh, I see that due to a TK glitch I missed the abortion debate in progress. Many interesting points made here. 
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:00c26430-6353-49f1-b46e-f776f52b2739">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]Chels, I am sure the women on this board who have made the difficult choice to have an abortion really appreciate being called a murderer. Especially since at least one of them had to make that choice after a rape. Eff you. Oh, I divorced after beiong married in the Church and am now remarried without a divorce. We baptized my son yesterday. The Church is willing to convalidate our marriage with no annulment.
    Posted by allisong23[/QUOTE]

    <div>
    </div><div>I hope that this questions doesn't come off the wrong way, and if it's none of my business let me know, but out of curiosity...how are you remarrying without a divorce? Was the marriage annuled by the state? </div>
  • My bad. I got a divorce, and remarried without an annulment. I'll fix it.
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  • polichikpolichik member
    2500 Comments
    edited June 2012
    I'm like Smash... I can't believe I made it through this entire thread. I'm not sure I can add much of anything to the pro choice camp. But seriously, I'm appalled that anyone would tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body. I don't know how a person could hear the stories that the corageous women in this thread have shared and still want to outlaw abortion. Chelsea, the only thing I have to say is that I think it's pretty hard to wrap my head around seeing something awful happening, having your opinion, but not sharing it with your friend. I've had times in my profession where I've had to advise a couple to get a divorce, which isn't fun but sometimes is the ethical thing to do. And these are people I only know within the confines of my office and am only invested in as clients. If the person was my friend, that would be all the more reason for me to level with her. If you care about someone, you need to be honest with her. ETA: I know this was super late and long, so sorry to be "that girl." I simply couldn't hold back from responding after reading the whole thing.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_an-interesting-dear-prudence?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:47144c29-1f9d-41d4-8ce5-968adc8e97b0Post:d0444fd3-ee21-4423-bf26-ffaab3136409">Re: An interesting Dear Prudence</a>:
    [QUOTE]You can't kill anything that's not alive. I can go out and have two million abortions and not have killed a damn thing. And holy cap, if our country is ever stupid enough to start deeming fetuses as living unbreathing human beings then women are screwed. Just think about every miscarriage being investigated as a homicide. That would just be dandy.
    Posted by kodakitty[/QUOTE]

    I thought I read several months back that there is a state that is ruling some instances of miscarriage to be homocide... I hesistate to post this as I don't have the link any more but has one one heard about that?

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