Community› Cultural Wedding Boards› Catholic Weddings
Catholic Weddings
New Discussion

Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer

ootmother2ootmother2 member
First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
in Catholic Weddings
And I would like the opinion of all of our Catholic Brides (don't hit me, please)

On Sunday, I went to 7:30 mass at  my usual church.

At  Apostles Creed, there was some stumbling at the part

" for us men and for our salvation" or "for us and for our salvation"


Different churches are ommiting the word "man", I assume to be more PC, not sure though

So I thought I would take a poll here to find out how YOUR church says the apostles Creed.

My church is fairly modern but I don't know if the prayer has actually been changed

I asked the priest and he said it had become that way because most of the priests wanted that change.  Can priests just make a little change for the good without telling anyone. or do they get instructions from the higher ups?


thinking here
Report Reply to Post
«1

Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer

  • mica178mica178 member
    5 Love Its First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    I'm overthinking it, but I think every church I've attended in the last year has done the traditional "for us men and for our salvation."  As I've only attended church in SF and LA lately, we're pretty darned modern/progressive, but I guess we like the old words!
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic **Bio**
    Report Reply
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    The church my sister attends in DC drops the "for men" as well

    From what I've seen so far, it's about 50/50

    I have no problem with it.  Perhaps the prayer was written before the huge number left.
    Report Reply
  • Angela LeederAngela Leeder member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    I have been to numerous catholic churches around my state and I gave not been in one that has used "for us men".  I am pretty sure that changes like that are passed down from the Vatican and then each church has choice to keep it the way it was or make the change.  I may be wrong though.
    Wedding Countdown Ticker
    Report Reply
  • mica178mica178 member
    5 Love Its First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    On second thought, maybe we say "for us sinners and our salvaiton," but maybe I'm getting my prayers confused.  I really need to go to bed.
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic **Bio**
    Report Reply
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    I think ours says "for us men and our salvation."
    Report Reply
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    The correct form of the nicene creed is  "for us men and for our salvation". No priest has a right to change the text, add or subtract anything from the mass. Some did this to be more "PC".

    The new translation coming this advent is from the higher up and everyone must conform to the text exacty as written.
    Report Reply
  • bel138bel138 member
    First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    We have men in there.
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic
    Report Reply
  • Riss91Riss91 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    I attend the Latin mass, and we do include the word "homines" which is "men"....

    Report Reply
  • lburkey21lburkey21 member
    First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    We say "for us men" at my church
    Daisypath Anniversary tickers

    Lauren's book recommendations, liked quotes, book clubs, book trivia, book lists (to-read shelf)Follow Me on Pinterest

    Report Reply
  • audreyjemaudreyjem
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    I've heard it both ways as well.
    ~The Future Mrs. L~ Planning Bio Image and video hosting by TinyPic Wedding Countdown Ticker
    Report Reply
  • newlyseliskinewlyseliski member
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Ours says "for us men"... I've been to a few parishes that omit "men," though...
    Report Reply
  • catarntinacatarntina member
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Pretty sure we say "For us men and our salvation"  I might just say it that way though, without caring what other people say, 'cause that's what I was taught.
    ---------
    Anniversary

    Lilypie Second Birthday tickers
    Report Reply
  • doctabroccolidoctabroccoli member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    We use inclusive language in all hymns and prayers at my church, so no "men" for us.
    BabyFruit Ticker
    Waiting to meet the baby broccoli on 5/5/2013!
    Report Reply
  • gwendolynclaregwendolynclare
    First Comment
    edited December 2011

    -what agapecarrie said.  No priest EVER has the right to change the words of a prayer in the Mass.  EVER.  The creed especially.  Lex orandi, lex credendi!

    Report Reply
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    I can't remember what the Cardinal says at St. Patrick's and that's the head of the diocese.  Perhaps I'll go to the high mass there this weekend and see how he says it.

    Interesting though & thanks for your replies
    Report Reply
  • Riss91Riss91 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    I guess I don't personally see the problem with using the term "men" or "man" as it is a reference to all humanity. It annoys me when people get uptight about things like that. I think there are instances where men/women equality is an issue, but I just don't see it here.  You can choose to see it as excluding women or you can choose to see it as all of humanity (men, women and children). In this case, I feel that if you're offended, it's because you're choosing  to be offended. Just my opinion!

    Report Reply
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:c34a122a-0467-41d9-9993-c0e48b6a011c">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
    [QUOTE]I guess I don't personally see the problem with using the term "men" or "man" as it is a reference to all humanity. It annoys me when people get uptight about things like that. I think there are instances where men/women equality is an issue, but I just don't see it here.  You can choose to see it as excluding women or you can choose to see it as all of humanity (men, women and children). In this case, I feel that if you're offended, it's because you're choosing  to be offended. Just my opinion!
    Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]


    haha, Riss, my sister in DC would take serious offense to the inclusion of the word "men".  I see it as you do,  "men" or "man" is just inclusive but I thought it was interesting that it can change from church to church.
    Report Reply
  • Riss91Riss91 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    I have some relatives that would agree with your sister in DC :-)  I just think everyone's over-sensitivity can get out of hand and that maybe the perspective is the issue. I can choose to associate a color with something offensive - should I assume everyone who wears that color around me is offending me/my beliefs? Sorry for my mini-rant!

    Report Reply
  • lalaith50lalaith50 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Comment Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    We definitely say "men." I don't go to other churches very often, but I don't think I've ever been to one where I heard that omitted. In fact, I would be SO MAD, because, like, aren't we the CATHOLIC ("universal") Church?! What's the point of being in the Catholic Church if people are just going to go around changing words so that when visitors from other members of the *Catholic Church* come, they stumble on the words?!
    Anniversary
    Report Reply
  • doctabroccolidoctabroccoli member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:d581c00c-7daf-4f0d-b977-445bb19f1739">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
    [QUOTE]We definitely say "men." I don't go to other churches very often, but I don't think I've ever been to one where I heard that omitted. In fact, I would be SO MAD, because, like, aren't we the CATHOLIC ("universal") Church?! What's the point of being in the Catholic Church if people are just going to go around changing words so that when visitors from other members of the *Catholic Church* come, they stumble on the words?!
    Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

    Because there's a huge schism in the Catholic Church that people try to ignore?

    And for the record, we also refer to God as God instead of he or him.  So, yeah, we change those words too, and I don't think it makes us any less Catholic.
    BabyFruit Ticker
    Waiting to meet the baby broccoli on 5/5/2013!
    Report Reply
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Referring to God when the liturgy texts use "Him" completely misses the mark on how God wants a relationship with us. He wants us to know Him as a loving Father, and by neutering that particular relationship  (and the relationship with the Son too) we put a wall up, when we are supposed to be the closest to Him in the gift of His sacrifice and receiving His divine life within us at the Eucharist.

    We are not generic sexless souls trapped in a body, we are male or female souls, manifested through our bodies. A woman's relationship with God the Father is different than a man's... and that is how God intended it.

    The Fatherhood of God is evidenced in our bodies, in His image. Because in the very biology of it, a father "initiates" and is the "giver" and the mother is the receiver. This is how a married couple images and is an icon of the marriage of Christ to His church.  We have a mother, Mary, who was without sin.

    These references are not by accident, but purposeful, given to us by Christ himself. We are indeed a universal church, and even though these small changes may seem harmless, they have deeper and much more drastic significance, and can possibly cause harm to faith.


    Report Reply
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    umm, apag

    Nowhere in the Catholic bible, all 73 books, is the word MALE or MAN used in reference to God, other than addressing Jesus.

    You're presuming that God has human likeness and that's close to blasphemy.

    I'd recheck that stance if I were you.

    hth
    Report Reply
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:6ad31d17-4a5c-4aa6-a158-d2bb3bc31c01">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
    [QUOTE]umm, apag Nowhere in the Catholic bible, all 73 books, is the word MALE or MAN used in reference to God, other than addressing Jesus. You're presuming that God has human likeness and that's close to blasphemy. I'd recheck that stance if I were you. hth
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    All over it refers to Him as Father- including Jesus (Jesus calls Him Father)
    Report Reply
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    edited December 2011

    lol

    and who wrote and/or translated the bible?  Not women as very few even knew how to read and write until well into the 15th century.

    I give up, you can stay in the past if you choose

    Report Reply
  • mica178mica178 member
    5 Love Its First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    The Catholic Catechism says that God is neither male nor female.  God is God. 

    In the OT, God's pronoun is often "They" in the original translations.  Some say this indicates the trilogy.  Others say this is to indicate gender neutrality ("It" sounds much weirder), since God is without a body and is above sex/gender definitions.
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic **Bio**
    Report Reply
  • Hope61Hope61 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:551c9063-3f34-4c2f-ad0f-baa1138689ed">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
    [QUOTE]Referring to God when the liturgy texts use "Him" completely misses the mark on how God wants a relationship with us. He wants us to know Him as a loving Father, and by neutering that particular relationship  (and the relationship with the Son too) we put a wall up, when we are supposed to be the closest to Him in the gift of His sacrifice and receiving His divine life within us at the Eucharist. We are not generic sexless souls trapped in a body, we are male or female souls, manifested through our bodies. A woman's relationship with God the Father is different than a man's... and that is how God intended it. The Fatherhood of God is evidenced in our bodies, in His image. Because in the very biology of it, a father "initiates" and is the "giver" and the mother is the receiver. This is how a married couple images and is an icon of the marriage of Christ to His church.  We have a mother, Mary, who was without sin. These references are not by accident, but purposeful, given to us by Christ himself. We are indeed a universal church, and even though these small changes may seem harmless, they have deeper and much more drastic significance, and can possibly cause harm to faith.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    Great post :)

    Nowhere in this post does it say that God is male or man. And oot and mica are right too, God is neither male nor female. But that does not change the relationship of God to us as Father, as Jesus calls Him "Abba, father". God also chose to come to earth as a man, and created Adam in His image and then Eve to complement him... I think that to ignore this is to miss a large piece in our knowledge of God.
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic Daisypath Anniversary tickers
    Little Gabriel: BFP 7/12/11~EDD 3/21/12, miscarried 8/24/11 at 10w
    Report Reply
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    I wasn't in any way commenting on God's gender. I was talking about how He wants to be in relationship with us.

    the comment about women translators makes no sense... as the theology is very rich and deep into the relationship with the Fatherhood of God...as I explained above about the initiator of the gift. This wouldn't change if women wrote/translated the bible...this is a good thing for women. The eternal truths of God don't change with time.

    and Jesus did indeed say "Abba"  which means Father.

    To diminish this role is actually to diminish femininity and masculinity.
    Report Reply
  • Hope61Hope61 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Also, for the record, the churches I go to all say "us men" I believe.
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic Daisypath Anniversary tickers
    Little Gabriel: BFP 7/12/11~EDD 3/21/12, miscarried 8/24/11 at 10w
    Report Reply
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:551c9063-3f34-4c2f-ad0f-baa1138689ed">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
    [QUOTE]Referring to God when the liturgy texts use "Him" completely misses the mark on how God wants a relationship with us. He wants us to know Him as a loving Father, and by neutering that particular relationship  (and the relationship with the Son too) we put a wall up, when we are supposed to be the closest to Him in the gift of His sacrifice and receiving His divine life within us at the Eucharist. We are not generic sexless souls trapped in a body, we are male or female souls, manifested through our bodies. A woman's relationship with God the Father is different than a man's... and that is how God intended it. The Fatherhood of God is evidenced in our bodies, in His image. Because in the very biology of it, a father "initiates" and is the "giver" and the mother is the receiver. This is how a married couple images and is an icon of the marriage of Christ to His church.  We have a mother, Mary, who was without sin. These references are not by accident, but purposeful, given to us by Christ himself. We are indeed a universal church, and even though these small changes may seem harmless, they have deeper and much more drastic significance, and can possibly cause harm to faith.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    sweetie, Your constant attempt to humanize God just don't fly and I find your attempt to do so bothers the crap out of me.

    I'm outie
    Report Reply
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:55596e23-d45d-464b-9663-9ea9d37691b6">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer : sweetie, Your constant attempt to humanize God just don't fly and I find your attempt to do so bothers the crap out of me. I'm outie
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    Do not patronize me.
    This isn't humanizing God. I'm speaking what the church teaches and what scripture says... to have a relationship with Him as Father. This goes back to the time of Christ...and its nothing new nor heretical. Jesus called God Father....so should we.
    Report Reply
This discussion has been closed.
Choose Another Board
Search Boards