animal welfare vs religious rights?

Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?

• tayylor65

  

  April 2011

  I support this.  Animal rights trumps religion in my opinion.

  

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• Celles member

  

  April 2011

  Personally, I'd put the feelings of real animals ahead of the whims of an imaginary god. I have a feeling that is a flameworthy opinion around here, though.
  
  On a less tongue-in-cheek note, I imagine that kosher and halal slaughter were the most humane methods available at the time that they were made into religious law. (I imagine they're still more humane than most factory farming practices in the US, but that's a whole other debate...)

  

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• ricksang member

  

  April 2011

  Animals over a god.

  

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• K&J64 member

  

  April 2011

  I support this as well. Halal and Kosher slaughter practices need to be updated and have a little more compassion for the animals.

  
  

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• Blueyed228 member

  

  April 2011

  I agree with PP's.  Time to figure out a new way to make shiit kosher.

  
  
  DX: PCOS/Recurrent losses/MTHFR mutation (compound hetero)
  5 hysteroscopies/2 surgical
  3 Inject IUIs = 2 m/c's and 1 BFN
  IVF #1= BFP. m/c at 7w6d. Needed 2 D&C's and scar tissue removal. Mild OHSS
  IVF #2 = BFP. Severe OHSS. 4 Drainings. TWINS!
  

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• aggiebug member

  

  April 2011

  ok first of all I am talking welfare not rights of animals.
  
  Welfare offers their protection from harm and demands a healthy and safe living environment.  Rights is a whole different legal ballgame that I really don't think this country wants to get involved in.  the link says rights but its really a welfare issue not a rights issue. 
  
  I am torn.  I am all for animal welfare, but I also think we should preserve and respect religions.  I am also a little incredulous on the "studies" they talk about that proves they feel pain and emotional distress.  If they truly do I think it would be easier for me to agree with, but I am a doubting mind I guess

  Love is like infinity: You can't have more or less infinity, and you can't compare two things to see if they're "equally infinite." Infinity just is, and that's the way I think love is, too.
  Fred Rogers

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• ArmyofUs member

  

  April 2011

  Yep.  Why would a god want you to torture one of their animals?

  

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• Celles member

  

  April 2011

  How can you have a dog and still doubt that animals feel pain and emotional distress?
  

  

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• aggiebug member

  

  April 2011

  oh no no no. I don't doubt that they can feel pain and emotional distress. I just doubt that the process in question causes any more pain/ emotional distress than typcial slaughter practices.
  
  
  I 100% agree that they can and do feel pain and emotional distress.  I have seen it for my very eyes.  I just am not sure enough about the actual degree if differences in the 2 practices that really makes them that much different.

  Love is like infinity: You can't have more or less infinity, and you can't compare two things to see if they're "equally infinite." Infinity just is, and that's the way I think love is, too.
  Fred Rogers

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• heyimbren member

  

  April 2011

  I normally only lurk on here, but this exact topic is on my exam tomorrow so I was interested to read the article (except my topic also includes the question as to whether or not animals have rights in the same way humans do).
  
  Aggie, if you get a chance, you might be interested in an article I had to read for this class by Paula Casal called "Is Multiculturalism bad for Animals?" It talks about the Santero religion specifically.
  
  I like Celles' point that the origin of religious practices should be studied as well. But I'd be particularly interested in seeing the viewpoint on this article from a religious person who has these dietary restrictions to follow. I'm biased because I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim.

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• CassandraPotter

  

  April 2011

  what are they going to do, ban hunting next?

  

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• Celles member

  

  April 2011 edited April 2011

  Okay, that makes considerably more sense!
  
  I doubt that a kosher slaughter is significantly less humane than a typical factory farming scenario in the US, although I'm hopeful that Western Europe has higher standards than we do. (I know they've outlawed declawing cats and docking ears and tails on dogs -- two practices that are still horrifyingly common here.)
  
  Still, I'd be more inclined to push for more humane treatment across the board than to say "well, it isn't much worse than this thing that is already pretty horrific, so it probably isn't worth advcoating for...", KWIM?

  

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• annakb8 member

  

  April 2011

  I wouldn't be surprised if this legislation stemmed from some Dutch people's concerns about growing (largely African and muslim) immigrant population as much as animal rights. While I'm sure a lot of people are concerned about the welfare of animals, I bet the fact that this might force some of the largely segregated immigrant communities to accept Dutch/Christian/Western traditions and practices in some way is an added bonus for some.

  
  generic blog link.

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• Anysunrise member

  

  April 2011

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_animal-welfare-vs-religious-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:15f542cb-32d1-4ed0-9d01-be86fa97c9b3Post:e9cece4d-2abd-436f-953d-e89d0fb105d9">Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?</a>:
  [QUOTE]what are they going to do, ban hunting next?
  Posted by CassandraPotter[/QUOTE]
  
  <div>
  </div><div>-.-</div>

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• aggiebug member

  

  April 2011

  heyimbren- that article sounds very interesting.  I am off to find it now. 
  
  Animal welfare is a subject I am very passionate about, and in tandem the topic of animal rights.
  
  That is one of the reasons I posted the link on here.  I know there aren't many of the Jewish and Islamic faith that post on here and practice kosher/halal eating, but there are more here than I know in person. 

  Love is like infinity: You can't have more or less infinity, and you can't compare two things to see if they're "equally infinite." Infinity just is, and that's the way I think love is, too.
  Fred Rogers

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• ArmyofUs member

  

  April 2011

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_animal-welfare-vs-religious-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:15f542cb-32d1-4ed0-9d01-be86fa97c9b3Post:da6ad655-6858-48ea-990a-e4dd7460d1ed">Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?</a>:
  [QUOTE](I know they've outlawed declawing cats and docking ears and tails on dogs -- two practices that are still horrifyingly common here.)Posted by Celles[/QUOTE]
  Don't forget debarking dogs

  

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• Blueyed228 member

  

  April 2011

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_animal-welfare-vs-religious-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:15f542cb-32d1-4ed0-9d01-be86fa97c9b3Post:1745d9ff-e2e5-4279-9ca1-c80ce3679d30">Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re: animal welfare vs religious rights? : Don't forget debarking dogs
  Posted by ArmyofUs[/QUOTE]
  
  Thank God Mass ended de-barking. 

  
  
  DX: PCOS/Recurrent losses/MTHFR mutation (compound hetero)
  5 hysteroscopies/2 surgical
  3 Inject IUIs = 2 m/c's and 1 BFN
  IVF #1= BFP. m/c at 7w6d. Needed 2 D&C's and scar tissue removal. Mild OHSS
  IVF #2 = BFP. Severe OHSS. 4 Drainings. TWINS!
  

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• aggiebug member

  

  April 2011

  annakb I have a feeling you are partially right.
  
  and celles I think slaughter houses here in the US would shock most of the US, how humane they treat the animals.  I also think that the public perception has been skewed on factory farming based on the overwhelming propaganda in the mainstream media right now.
  
  No I am not saying factory farming is perfect, but I think the media has skewed the picture and that a few farms are destroying the reputation of an entire community. Most of which are not terrible places.  or even bad places.
  

  Love is like infinity: You can't have more or less infinity, and you can't compare two things to see if they're "equally infinite." Infinity just is, and that's the way I think love is, too.
  Fred Rogers

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• Celles member

  

  April 2011

  I wish I could believe that, Aggie. It would make me feel like less of a hypocrite everytime I eat a cheeseburger.

  

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• CassandraPotter

  

  April 2011

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_animal-welfare-vs-religious-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:15f542cb-32d1-4ed0-9d01-be86fa97c9b3Post:e6b020c5-847d-4c50-8902-2301363091cf">Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re: animal welfare vs religious rights? : -.-
  Posted by Anysunrise[/QUOTE]
  I guess deer/bears/ducks don't feel pain or suffering lol

  

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• Celles member

  

  April 2011

  People eat bear?

  

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• aggiebug member

  

  April 2011

  debarking dogs is all but outlawed here.  It is considered HIGHLY frowned upon in the veterinary community. 
  
  Declawing cats is still quite prevalent and I think will continue to be. 
  
  Docking tails I am ambivalent about. Soley because I have seen a lot of damaged tails on older animals and its a lot more painful to remove a tail on an adult dog vs a puppy.  Yes a lot of dogs wouldn't ever need it done, but the squeak for about 1 minute and then go to sleep so I think it could be much worse.  (you can't tell from my picture, but I have a dog with a long tail)
  
  ear docks I find dumb, and I think this is going the way of debarking.

  Love is like infinity: You can't have more or less infinity, and you can't compare two things to see if they're "equally infinite." Infinity just is, and that's the way I think love is, too.
  Fred Rogers

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• Anysunrise member

  

  April 2011

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_animal-welfare-vs-religious-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:15f542cb-32d1-4ed0-9d01-be86fa97c9b3Post:96772cea-3a2c-4d61-a778-44afbf7056ad">Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re: animal welfare vs religious rights? : I guess deer/bears/ducks don't feel pain or suffering lol
  Posted by CassandraPotter[/QUOTE]
  
  <div>
  </div><div>Not if you do it right.</div>

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• aggiebug member

  

  April 2011

  celles it is true. I promise.
  
  I spent 2 weeks very recently working on dairy farms. BIG dairy farms.
  
  Those cows were coming up to us. licking us rubbing on us.  They like people.  They get milked 2-3 times a day and they know when its time, they are standing at the gate pushing to get into the parlor.  Those animals are checked multiple times a day.  Their milk production is monitored daily and if it drops slightly they are doing a physcial exam to make sure it doesn't have any underlying issues. 
  
  I know that is dairy, but it is the best personal example I have.  I think one thing people tend to forget about farmers.  It that those animals are their livelyhood.  Yes sometimes they have to make a tough decision instead of installing heroic lifesaving measures, but on the whole  the happier and healthier they keep their animals the better it is for them.  Besides farmers actually like the animals they work with, they are more than just dollar signs to them. 

  Love is like infinity: You can't have more or less infinity, and you can't compare two things to see if they're "equally infinite." Infinity just is, and that's the way I think love is, too.
  Fred Rogers

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• aggiebug member

  

  April 2011

  I really do understand the incredulity on the humane treatment.  And no I do not think that every place treats their animals humanely.  But I think overall the public perception of the food animal  industry is quite distorted.

  Love is like infinity: You can't have more or less infinity, and you can't compare two things to see if they're "equally infinite." Infinity just is, and that's the way I think love is, too.
  Fred Rogers

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• CassandraPotter

  

  April 2011

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_animal-welfare-vs-religious-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:15f542cb-32d1-4ed0-9d01-be86fa97c9b3Post:3c9602ff-6552-4ebe-bfaf-129e937253f0">Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?</a>:
  [QUOTE]People eat bear?
  Posted by Celles[/QUOTE]
  hahaha yeah.. do you live in NY, NY or something? ;)

  

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• CassandraPotter

  

  April 2011

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_animal-welfare-vs-religious-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:15f542cb-32d1-4ed0-9d01-be86fa97c9b3Post:4752af2a-eccf-4f7a-a571-462490e188fb">Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re: animal welfare vs religious rights? : Not if you do it right.
  Posted by Anysunrise[/QUOTE]
  yeah you can try to shoot an arrow into its heart so it will die quickly but its very hard! either way-- that wasn't my point :) 

  

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• LessThanZero

  

  April 2011

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_animal-welfare-vs-religious-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:15f542cb-32d1-4ed0-9d01-be86fa97c9b3Post:a99167b9-8683-4f44-805c-c980a87aa97e">Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re: animal welfare vs religious rights? : hahaha yeah.. do you live in NY, NY or something? ;)
  Posted by CassandraPotter[/QUOTE]
  
  WTF does this even mean?

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• Anysunrise member

  

  April 2011

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_animal-welfare-vs-religious-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:15f542cb-32d1-4ed0-9d01-be86fa97c9b3Post:4c377a32-0185-4d1b-aeeb-0917cc11568c">Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re: animal welfare vs religious rights? : yeah you can try to shoot an arrow into its heart so it will die quickly but its very hard! either way-- that wasn't my point :) 
  Posted by CassandraPotter[/QUOTE]
  
  <div>
  </div><div>Most people don't use a bow and arrow; they use guns.</div>

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• TurtlesAllTheWayDown member

  

  April 2011

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_animal-welfare-vs-religious-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:15f542cb-32d1-4ed0-9d01-be86fa97c9b3Post:c8ca7312-f2d2-4592-83a3-e842885d7441">Re: animal welfare vs religious rights?</a>:
  [QUOTE]I really do understand the incredulity on the humane treatment.  And no I do not think that every place treats their animals humanely.  But I think overall the public perception of the food animal  industry is quite distorted.
  Posted by aggiebug[/QUOTE]
  
  There's quite a bit of literature on CAFOs, which I assume Celles was refering to, not family-owned farms.
  
  They actually have outlawed any sort of unecessary cosmetic surgery in my city, includin declawing, docking, etc.

  my read shelf:
  
  40/112
  
  

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